Epson 5050UB, BenQ HT5550, JVC X790R - Which one to get? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 171 Old 04-16-2019, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Wanted to update this thread.

I did some lurking and question-asking in the JVC forums and came across owners who are indeed using X790R on a 150" screen. The bottom-line undoubtedly stood out that a 4K HDR Projector with more Lumens then ones currently available will be the best choice - however - since there isn't one in the market with those specifications, the better choice still stands at JVC. The Lumens output provided by Epson in literature, which appears to be considerably more then JVC or BenQ, isn't necessarily so in real world.

Neither of the 3 projectors are going to 'Excel' at HDR & 3D on a 150" Screen, however, neither of the 3 is going to provide better/more brightness then the other. That being said, JVC does seem to output enough to project perfectly fine on a 150" screen (which was my biggest question).

Contrast, Blacks & 3D on JVC, from what I can gather, is unbeatable. Epson seems to be the close runner-up.

I really have two choices here:

1. Get the Epson 5050UB now, save the few hundreds of dollars, in a year or so invest in a true 4K HDR which has higher lumens from JVC or Sony.

2. Get the JVC X790R and call it a day.

I'm leaning towards the JVC X790R. Once I get it, set it up, try a few different movies, if I don't feel Brightness, HDR & 3D is working for my screen - return for refund. Go with Epson.

If I go with Epson first, I'll always have the lingering doubt, what if JVC had worked?

So, I think I'm pretty set here. I'm still on waiting list so the purchase is not going to happen tomorrow, but is expected towards the end of this month. If something changes my mind in the meanwhile, so be it.

Thanks.
Personally, I'd choose the Epson, best value and brightest.

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post #62 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Contrast, Blacks & 3D on JVC, from what I can gather, is unbeatable. Epson seems to be the close runner-up.

As a DLP owner who had a JVC 5500 for testing in my home theater I can confirm that its contrast ratio and black levels are unbeatable (and therefore is one of my upgrade candidates, although Sony's MotionFlow Frame Interpolation is probably better than JVC's Clear Motion Drive).


In terms of 3D the general consensus is that DLP delivers best, but has been downgraded to "DLP Link" only (JVC uses 3D-RF glasses). Supposedly JVC isn't flicker-free (3D works at 96 kHz in contrast to DLP's 120 kHz), but my eyes are so slow that I neither notice flicker or DLP's rainbow effect.


4K eShift supposedly isn't that great with a JVC, but one of the recent Panasonic UHD players should improve the 4K performance.

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post #63 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
As a DLP owner who had a JVC 5500 for testing in my home theater I can confirm that its contrast ratio and black levels are unbeatable (and therefore is one of my upgrade candidates, although Sony's MotionFlow Frame Interpolation is probably better than JVC's Clear Motion Drive).


In terms of 3D the general consensus is that DLP delivers best, but has been downgraded to "DLP Link" only (JVC uses 3D-RF glasses). Supposedly JVC isn't flicker-free (3D works at 96 kHz in contrast to DLP's 120 kHz), but my eyes are so slow that I neither notice flicker or DLP's rainbow effect.


4K eShift supposedly isn't that great with a JVC, but one of the recent Panasonic UHD players should improve the 4K performance.
With all you need to weigh up the Pros and Cons.

JVC - Pros: blacks and contrast, motion, lens memory
Cons: slow handshake, e-shift, expensive to buy and replace bulbs

Sony - Pros: Native 4K, motion and Reality Creation
Cons: low lumens, expensive to buy & bulbs, average HDR

DLP - Pros: cheap to buy, True 4K, motion
Cons: poor contrast, rainbow effect, no great HDR

Epson - Pros: cheapish & cheap bulbs, decent contrast, high lumens, handshake, lag, HDR, lens memory
Cons: e-shift, size, noise in high fan mode

Personally I don’t see e-shift as a negative on either the JVC or Epson but since the others are better I put it there.

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post #64 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 12:27 PM
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What about a mixed use media room that will have some ambient light while watching sports/entertaining and light-controlled during movie night? Will be sitting about 12' from a 120" or so scope screen.
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post #65 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 12:48 PM
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What about a mixed use media room that will have some ambient light while watching sports/entertaining and light-controlled during movie night? Will be sitting about 12' from a 120" or so scope screen.
Nothing really changes here. JVC>Epson>BenQ (more or less)

They are all good models and some have certain advantages. In a good home theater, JVC just reaches deeper, but it's also not really a part of the sub-$3K forum section. About $3,500 or so is what may be expected if you find a deal on the X790/RS540. They also may be tough to get in stock apparently.

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post #66 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
Nothing really changes here. JVC>Epson>BenQ (more or less)

They are all good models and some have certain advantages. In a good home theater, JVC just reaches deeper, but it's also not really a part of the sub-$3K forum section. About $3,500 or so is what may be expected if you find a deal on the X790/RS540. They also may be tough to get in stock apparently.
From all of my phone calls and store visits, it's basically "we're hoping to get another shipment in, but the waiting list is ## long, so cross your fingers!"

A lot of the dealers are also pointing towards the NX5 because they're in stock (I don't blame them), but obviously that's a good step up in cost... and from what I've read, not necessarily a complete upgrade from the 790.
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post #67 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tehknics View Post
From all of my phone calls and store visits, it's basically "we're hoping to get another shipment in, but the waiting list is ## long, so cross your fingers!"

A lot of the dealers are also pointing towards the NX5 because they're in stock (I don't blame them), but obviously that's a good step up in cost... and from what I've read, not necessarily a complete upgrade from the 790.
For what its worth, at Magnolia (Best Buy) today, they will sell the DLA-X790R on backorder with a date of May 9.

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post #68 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 01:48 PM
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For what its worth, at Magnolia (Best Buy) today, they will sell the DLA-X790R on backorder with a date of May 9.
That's a plus! If they are getting some, then hopefully some of the other dealers can get their share as well.

I'm guessing Best Buy will be selling them at MSRP?
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post #69 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 01:52 PM
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That's a plus! If they are getting some, then hopefully some of the other dealers can get their share as well.

I'm guessing Best Buy will be selling them at MSRP?
MSRP is ask. I think they will price match if you provide satisfactory ad.

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post #70 of 171 Old 04-17-2019, 02:02 PM
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MSRP is ask. I think they will price match if you provide satisfactory ad.
Figured so. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that with the limited qualities available, we probably won't see any advertised "low" prices to price-match. It's still a great deal at MSRP tho, at least they are getting some in stock!
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post #71 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 02:19 AM
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Nothing really changes here. JVC>Epson>BenQ (more or less)

From what I read in the corresponding BenQ threads concerning the latest two models (HT35550 and 5550) and with many graphic cross-references to Epson LCD that's an oversimplification that's no longer valid, more like Epson and BenQ are on par, but it ultimately depends which features are more important to the user to make the right decision.


As I for one prefer accurate, optimal colors, ghost-image-free 3D performance, image detail in black or dark areas and a screen image free of of a 'fly screen' (I'm immune to the DLP rainbow effect which AFAIK is only noticed by 1-2 people out of 10) I'd prefer a BenQ DLP over an Epson LCD these days, but YMMV.

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post #72 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 05:05 AM
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From what I read in the corresponding BenQ threads concerning the latest two models (HT35550 and 5550) and with many graphic cross-references to Epson LCD that's an oversimplification that's no longer valid, more like Epson and BenQ are on par, but it ultimately depends which features are more important to the user to make the right decision.


As I for one prefer accurate, optimal colors, ghost-image-free 3D performance, image detail in black or dark areas and a screen image free of of a 'fly screen' (I'm immune to the DLP rainbow effect which AFAIK is only noticed by 1-2 people out of 10) I'd prefer a BenQ DLP over an Epson LCD these days, but YMMV.
Accurate colours is one thing the Epson has been constantly been praise for since the 5040ub so I struggle to understand why you feel the BenQ is superior especially when they can’t get close to BT2020 for HDR. As for detail in blacks, the reason why you are seeing detail is that with the DLP it isn't black to begin with its grey, when your Epson or JVC is properly calibrated you see all the detail the “Director” wants you to see no less and no more than should be present, in the same way your eyes can’t see detail in the dark even though it’s still there.

Two things the DLP has over both the e-shifts from JVC and Epson is twice the resolution but again you need to be sitting very close to see this and I meant very close, I’ve done the test and beyond 5ft away from the screen there’s no visible pixels present to the naked eye or camera, the other advantage it has is motion but like rainbow effect with DLPs it’s only a problem to some and not others.

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post #73 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 07:27 AM
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Here are my 2 cents,

I just bought the Epson 5050UB on Friday last week and have been using it ever since, My comparison to it was my used since 2013 Optoma HD25 1080p projector with a fresh bulb. The older projector has the DC3 chip and better contrast than the new Benq projectors do natively. I also had a Viewsonic PX-727, 4K with light border for a while and returned it immediately. No amount of sharpness will replace the perceived picture enhancement of contrast and color. The Epson is leaps and bounds better than the Viewsonic or Optoma on 1080p and especially 4K. The black levels in my mostly light controlled room is awesome. Shadow details is great, I just watched the Season Premiere of Game of Thrones from Amazon on the Epson, it looked immaculate, black levels, shadow details, and definition (even though it was a 1080p feed via Apple TV 4K upscaled). I watch on 103" 16:9 Vutec motorized roll down screen with Vu Flex Pro material (don't like tab tensioned look), about 9.5" feet back in a 2 tone brown room with white popcorn ceiling, an area rung that is brown around the viewing area, no native windows, and a carrera white marble floor outside of the area rug for reference. I have a 65" Sony XBR65X950B (behind roll down screen) for comparison of non HDR 1080p and 4K sources and no longer feel the need for it like I did with the Optoma projector, I am that satisfied with the Epson. I have 20/15 vision and am a A/V engineer for a living and have access to all kinds of product but I live with a beer budget by choice. I demonstrate Barco Loki's all day in our dedicated Theater at my job's showroom. These are the things I see daily and still admire what Epson has accomplished at this price point. Attached a picture of my Room for reference.
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post #74 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 10:40 AM
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Has anyone seen the 790 vs the NX5? I was able to demo a 790 next to a NX7 and could notice subtle differences on the TRON light cycle battle scene, with the 4k offering some additional clarity, but they were pretty close!
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post #75 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tehknics View Post
From all of my phone calls and store visits, it's basically "we're hoping to get another shipment in, but the waiting list is ## long, so cross your fingers!"

A lot of the dealers are also pointing towards the NX5 because they're in stock (I don't blame them), but obviously that's a good step up in cost... and from what I've read, not necessarily a complete upgrade from the 790.
That would be correct. This is the reason some of us, like myself, got in the waiting list in March. At this point they are probably not even putting people on waiting list anymore because they probably have enough already signed up to match the expected amount of stock they are going to receive. I got on the waiting list just in time, and at that time I was told stock is expected "End of April or Early May".

I'm still waiting patiently. Probably another 3 weeks, if not 4.

Online retailers are at the $3900 price point, if not $4k. But wait list deal is much better. Lower price for waiting.

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post #76 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 10:47 AM
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That would be correct. This is the reason some of us, like myself, got in the waiting list in March. At this point they are probably not even putting people on waiting list anymore because they probably have enough already signed up to match the expected amount of stock they are going to receive. I got on the waiting list just in time, and at that time I was told stock is expected "End of April or Early May".

I'm still waiting patiently. Probably another 3 weeks, if not 4.

Online retailers are at the $3900 price point, if not $4k. But wait list deal is much better. Lower price for waiting.
I'm on the list as well, but i'm gonna bet much further down the line haha. If that doesn't work out, the NX5 looks like the next best option... but after some reading it looks like the NX7 is more of the upgrade than the NX5, being more of a side step if not even a little down? Long story short, if the NX5 was offered at a decent price, would anyone consider it over the 790? 4k looks great, but the contrast is much lower.

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post #77 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 11:25 AM
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Attached a picture of my Room for reference.
The marble floor is very sharp and, of course, love the Maggies. Looks like you have the space to go even bigger.
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post #78 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 11:27 AM
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The marble floor is very sharp and, of course, love the Maggies. Looks like you have the space to go even bigger.
Thank you for the compliments. The wall overall is 22' with a door way at the extreme left. I have to let my wallet calm down from the projector before a do a TV shuffle between rooms to do a fixed screen instead.
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post #79 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 02:27 PM
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Accurate colours is one thing the Epson has been constantly been praise for since the 5040ub so I struggle to understand why you feel the BenQ is superior especially when they can’t get close to BT2020 for HDR. As for detail in blacks, the reason why you are seeing detail is that with the DLP it isn't black to begin with its grey, when your Epson or JVC is properly calibrated you see all the detail the “Director” wants you to see no less and no more than should be present, in the same way your eyes can’t see detail in the dark even though it’s still there.

Two things the DLP has over both the e-shifts from JVC and Epson is twice the resolution but again you need to be sitting very close to see this and I meant very close, I’ve done the test and beyond 5ft away from the screen there’s no visible pixels present to the naked eye or camera, the other advantage it has is motion but like rainbow effect with DLPs it’s only a problem to some and not others.
Two things...


First, don't conflate black levels with a display's ability to resolve dark detail. These are two very different things and I see them often confused for one another. As an easy (although somewhat extreme) example: early LG OLEDs had very deep blacks but very poor ability to show detail near black. Now, I'm not saying this is an issue with the Epson just pointing out that this is an apples/oranges discussion.


Second, your comment about needing to sit extremely close to see any benefit from 4K may be true for you but it's not true for others. In addition, this is heavily content dependent. I can very easily see the advantage of 4K on my 100" from 10ft away. Obviously, the closer you sit the more obvious the added resolution becomes but you don't need to sit at pixel peeping range to see an advantage.
One thing to mention here is that, in my experience, 4K isn't always 'obvious' to people. When I show someone, say, the 4K Bluray of Planet Earth, viewers are quick to point out how good the image looks but they're not quick to point out resolution. That only happens AFTER I show them the same scene in 1080p. Usually, that's when I get crinkled noses and gasps at how poor, relatively speaking, HD looks next to 4K.

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post #80 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 02:28 PM
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Hey, all. Just to let you know I personally have a JVC DLA-X790 and the Epson 5050UBe.

So... ask away.

(And for those wondering, Epson shifted right, blanked - ECO mode, JVC running HDR movie at low-lamp, almost full-open iris).


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Hey, all. Just to let you know I personally have a JVC DLA-X790 and the Epson 5050UBe.

So... ask away.

(And for those wondering, Epson shifted right, blanked - ECO mode, JVC running HDR movie at low-lamp, almost full-open iris).

More pics might be good.


1. Please comment on the noise difference (fan and/or eshift) between the two, with your current settings (Epson ECO vs JVC low).
2. Please comment on lens memory repeatability for both.
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post #82 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 03:51 PM
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Hey, all. Just to let you know I personally have a JVC DLA-X790 and the Epson 5050UBe.

So... ask away.

(And for those wondering, Epson shifted right, blanked - ECO mode, JVC running HDR movie at low-lamp, almost full-open iris).

In contrast nothing I see competes with the X7900, unless it’s an X9900 that is. LOL Even the newer N5 doesn’t hold a candle.

Need to see how an X7900 handles HDR, this is one thing the Epson has truly impressed me with. How do they compare?

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post #83 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 04:02 PM
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Two things...


First, don't conflate black levels with a display's ability to resolve dark detail. These are two very different things and I see them often confused for one another. As an easy (although somewhat extreme) example: early LG OLEDs had very deep blacks but very poor ability to show detail near black. Now, I'm not saying this is an issue with the Epson just pointing out that this is an apples/oranges discussion.
My point was if you don’t see all the detail in those dark areas don’t assume it’s the projectors inability to reproduce them, it might be that you aren’t meant to see them.

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Second, your comment about needing to sit extremely close to see any benefit from 4K may be true for you but it's not true for others. In addition, this is heavily content dependent. I can very easily see the advantage of 4K on my 100" from 10ft away. Obviously, the closer you sit the more obvious the added resolution becomes but you don't need to sit at pixel peeping range to see an advantage.
One thing to mention here is that, in my experience, 4K isn't always 'obvious' to people. When I show someone, say, the 4K Bluray of Planet Earth, viewers are quick to point out how good the image looks but they're not quick to point out resolution. That only happens AFTER I show them the same scene in 1080p. Usually, that's when I get crinkled noses and gasps at how poor, relatively speaking, HD looks next to 4K.
I reckon a Sony Native 4K to be a better comparison then an e-shift claiming to do 4K, myself, both sons (still in their teens without glasses) and brother who has 20/15 vision by laser eye surgery all couldn’t notice any difference from 10ft away compared to my Epson on e-shift. It was different in appearance but none of us perceived it to have more detail. We weren’t comparing 1080p with 4K, we were comparing 4K on both machines.

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
BenQ HT5550 is only one on your list with flawless 3D



Epson 3D has crosstalk and JVC 3d has flicker
I've had an rs400 rs520 and now a 640.. I've never noticed any flicker
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post #85 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
A lot of people are talking, asking and struggling with the decision as printed in the title, so I decided to make an independent thread. The Epson 5050UB Review thread is full of this question, with no clear answers, and it seems like this question is now spread around across all different review & announcement threads for the 3 models listed.

It's time to consolidate.

A lot of folks, it seems, are in the market right now to replace an old, aging or dying Projector, or want to make the jump to 4K (Faux K for affordability) and are distinctly looking at these 3 models.

Both Epson 5050UB & BenQ HT5550 are priced around $3K.
JVC X790R can be had for some hundred dollars more.

We are all trying to make the right decision & purchase, so I'm hoping the experienced & owners can chime in.

My requirements are below; others are welcome to post and add theirs:

- I have a 150% Screen in a dark room. Projector sits on a shelf, 15' - 17' from the screen, directly behind the seating. We are approx 12' away. There needs to be some level of Lens Shift for flexible placement, which I believe all 3 projectors allow. Epson & JVC a little more then the BenQ.

- 4K HDR picture quality & performance is high priority, as my UHD Blu-ray collection has been increasing and there's a lot of 4K stuff now on Amazon Prime & Hulu (Both of which I subscribe to).

- 100% Movies & TV only. NO GAMING.

- 3D is very important to me. I'm coming from a 7.5 year old Epson 5010 and unfortunately 3D was a disappointment. Too much cross-talk / ghosting or whatever they call it. Subtitles in a 3D movie were unreadable. Need better 3D performance.

- I don't know much about auto tone mapping for HDR but as far as I know, only BenQ HT5550 in the above 3 projector offers it.

- JVC has the lowest lumens out of the 3 projectors but supposed to have better blacks, contrast and general build quality and components. I do believe Epson 5050UB & BenQ HT5550 have somewhat bridged this gap from the past, I don't know how much exactly though.

The bottom-line, for a lot of us, the pricing difference isn't too much. As someone else said in another thread, "We like to have the best toys, but also love a good deal/bargain"

I had a budget of $4k. I can afford either of the 3 projectors easily. At the same time, I don't want to pay "more" if I can get same or comparable for "less".

Please chime in.

Thanks.



If 4K HDR picture quality & performance is high priority, then dont buy a projector.
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post #86 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
I've had an rs400 rs520 and now a 640.. I've never noticed any flicker
.

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You are lucky then, as all of those jvc are only 48hz/eye in 3d which is below the 60hz most people need to avoid seeing flicker.
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post #87 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 08:23 PM
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My point was if you don’t see all the detail in those dark areas don’t assume it’s the projectors inability to reproduce them, it might be that you aren’t meant to see them.







I reckon a Sony Native 4K to be a better comparison then an e-shift claiming to do 4K, myself, both sons (still in their teens without glasses) and brother who has 20/15 vision by laser eye surgery all couldn’t notice any difference from 10ft away compared to my Epson on e-shift. It was different in appearance but none of us perceived it to have more detail. We weren’t comparing 1080p with 4K, we were comparing 4K on both machines.


That’s not how it works. If there is detail in the source and the display struggles to delineate that detail it doesn’t matter how deep the black level is it still crushes black. That might be a trade off someone is willing to make— as is the case of everyone who bought one of those early LG panels knowing what they were getting into— but it doesn’t change the fact.

As far as 4K vs 1080p x2... I’m not sure what to say. It’s pretty obvious from where I’m sitting and I don’t have anywhere close to 20/20. I remember when people were complaining about LG’s use of RGBW sub pixel structure in some of their LCD TVs as it created an image less than 4K. Those TVs maxes out at 65”— nowhere near the size a projector can produce. The Epson enhanced resolution is 4 million pixels shy of being 4K. Not saying it doesn’t look sharp— it just doesn’t look 4K sharp. If 1080p x2 was truly indistinguishable from 4K then JVC would have just stuck with E shift instead of going to native 4K panels.

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post #88 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 09:37 PM
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Rumor has it that the 5040ub and 5050ub have virtually the same contrast & black levels.
With the 5040ub discounted to $2000 w a free replacement bulb, does the 5050ub justify the $1000 price jump?

Right now the 5040ub might be the best bang for your buck out there.
Am I wrong???
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post #89 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 10:04 PM
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All the recent JVC's (ever since the RS-400 series) are plenty bright to power 150" screen, they just don't have the torch mode of the Epson.
Of course it does depend on viewer habits and how much you want to spend on extra lamps, that can be a factor to make someone lean towards an Epson (or a used JVC).

The JVC is going to beat the Epson significantly in PQ for most people, even though some don't want to believe it (the Epson still has a good picture too though).
However, once you get used to that tighter pixel fill and better e-shift, it would be hard for most people to go back to the Epson.

People have compared the JVC e-shift and Epson e-shift in here before, the Epson is behind when it comes to Pseudo-4k compared to the JVC.
That is from what I have heard, not sure if Epson improved it in the 5050 compared to the 5040.

Problem is the JVC just trumps most of these other projectors in contrast by quite a bit.

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Last edited by coderguy; 04-18-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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post #90 of 171 Old 04-18-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
That’s not how it works. If there is detail in the source and the display struggles to delineate that detail it doesn’t matter how deep the black level is it still crushes black. That might be a trade off someone is willing to make— as is the case of everyone who bought one of those early LG panels knowing what they were getting into— but it doesn’t change the fact.

As far as 4K vs 1080p x2... I’m not sure what to say. It’s pretty obvious from where I’m sitting and I don’t have anywhere close to 20/20. I remember when people were complaining about LG’s use of RGBW sub pixel structure in some of their LCD TVs as it created an image less than 4K. Those TVs maxes out at 65”— nowhere near the size a projector can produce. The Epson enhanced resolution is 4 million pixels shy of being 4K. Not saying it doesn’t look sharp— it just doesn’t look 4K sharp. If 1080p x2 was truly indistinguishable from 4K then JVC would have just stuck with E shift instead of going to native 4K panels.
Most projectors these days do not have shadow detail issues, as the gamma calibrations and calibration software has improved greatly.

Projectors at this level do not generally show detail differently or delineate it differently in dark scenes to the point of 'being unfixable',
other than calibration differences (though as you noted there are rare exceptions). Most manufacturers (other than some budget ones) have gone beyond that issue.

It is true that projectors with higher native contrast will crush shadow detail more, but you can adjust the gamma to compensate.

Some JVC's do have some gamma bump issues which accentuate the higher native contrast crushing the shadow detail.

However, it still doesn't really 'force you' to crush blacks, because any decent calibrator would know how to get around the issue,
and plenty of people in this forum can help someone with the issue even if they are not good at calibration.

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-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 04-18-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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