Epson HC 3200 and 3800 revealed - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 413 Old 12-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAMET View Post
Dear Dave in Green



Thank you for your reply.

I have asked https://projektory.pro/ Team, to make a such comparison. They are official Epson reseller, so maybe they will do this comparison. At the moment their first answer (translated from Polish to English) :



So we are waiting for someone's comparison.

Sincerely
I would not consider an official Epson reseller to be a reliable, independent source of objective performance data. They have a vested interest in making more profit from selling the more expensive model, so it's in their best interest to convince customers to buy the more expensive EH-TW7100 over the less expensive EH-TW7000.

With identical lumen ratings the only realistic way I can think of for the EH-TW7100 to have more than twice the contrast of the EH-TW7000 would be if it had different panels with different native contrast. There is no evidence to suggest this is true. Both projector models are simply said to have 0.61" wide Polysilicon TFT active matrix panels. If replacement panels for both projectors had different part numbers that would suggest they might have different panels with different native contrast. So if someone can find the replacement panel part numbers for both models that would be helpful.
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post #362 of 413 Old 12-02-2019, 08:52 PM
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The two projectors may have different firmware where the 3800 has a more aggressive dynamic iris.
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post #363 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 01:55 AM
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Dear Friends

I have reached one person, who I trust and I have an information, that EH-TW7100 has much greater black levels then EH-TW7000. He has seen both at the same time with the same video material. It's not visible during source of light, but when you will have no light sources and your room will be dark: "it's huge difference". I have also reached person, who sell those projectors and he told me, that they have resigned from on-line public comparison, because they will never sell EH-TW7000. So...

...anyway I will still be waiting for professional public tests of those two projectors, before I decide to spare 500 EUR more.

It's hard to find someone, who will compare those two projectors in Poland. USA is a big country, don't you have there any shops, who sell HC3800 and HC3200 and you may see there a comparison of them on your own eyes? I would be glad, for any informations about black levels of those two projectors.

Sincerely
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Last edited by VAMET; 12-03-2019 at 01:59 AM.
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post #364 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by VAMET View Post
Dear Friends

I have reached one person, who I trust and I have an information, that EH-TW7100 has much greater black levels then EH-TW7000. He has seen both at the same time with the same video material. It's not visible during source of light, but when you will have no light sources and your room will be dark: "it's huge difference". I have also reached person, who sell those projectors and he told me, that they have resigned from on-line public comparison, because they will never sell EH-TW7000. So...

...anyway I will still be waiting for professional public tests of those two projectors, before I decide to spare 500 EUR more.

It's hard to find someone, who will compare those two projectors in Poland. USA is a big country, don't you have there any shops, who sell HC3800 and HC3200 and you may see there a comparison of them on your own eyes? I would be glad, for any informations about black levels of those two projectors.

Sincerely
Finally something other than pure conjecture, thank you, VAMET!
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post #365 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 08:28 AM
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Deja vu. We went through this same exercise with the Epson HC 2100 and HC 2150 (EH-TW5600 and EH-TW5650). Epson claims the 2150 (5650) has nearly double the contrast of the 2100 (5600). No trusted independent source ever published instrumented measurements to verify this. Everyone had different opinions and believed what they wanted to believe. Most on this forum assumed the contrast specification difference was pure marketing. YMMV.
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post #366 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 08:41 AM
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Dear Friends

I would like to ask owners of EH-TW7000 (HC3200) or EH-TW7100 (HC3800) for a favor. May you be so kind and measure distances marked with arrows (only RED and GREEN) in this picture:



Thank you in advance for your help.

Sincerely

VAMET
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post #367 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 10:03 AM
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I wanted to give an update

I have been comparing the 5050ub and 3800 and have a bit more to add

The 3800 does get quite dark, not as dark as the 5050, but pretty close. However this is mostly due to the dynamic iris with the 3800, whereas the 5050 relies more on inherent contrast.

At first I was comparing dark video and they do seem to be somewhat comparable in this area, with the 5050 being the winner in every way: detail, darkness, color and contrast - however the 3800 is quite good and impressive. I actually notice a bigger difference in brighter footage, with the 5050 having significantly more contrast - it looks a lot more like a huge TV than a projector - with clearly deeper darks and contrast. This is the limitation the 3800 really faces relying on an auto iris for much of it's contrast. Further the auto iris opening and closing on the 3800 is noticeable, while on the 5050 it is not - this is likely due to the 3800 using the auto iris much more aggressively, while the 5050 is using it more subtly.

Of course the more light you add to the room the less and less what I described above matters. I added black fabric to the first 4 feet of my ceiling above my screen which made the difference in contrast much more apparent. If you are in a room with all white walls, I doubt you will notice any difference with black levels or contrast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeitgespenst View Post
Hi,
thanks for comparison. I have had also 3800/Europe 7100) and 5050 (Europe 9400 ?) in direct comparison.

I am o. k. with brightness/noise level, but:

Unfortunately my 3800 has a "bad" eshifting function (used for Full HD upscaling and also for 4k content).

If I compare both projectors with without Super Resolution and Detail Enhancement = Parameters = 0) or at least with exact the same parameter level, I see clearl a better sharpness -resolution with 5050 e-shifting.
Or in other words: The sharpness of my 3800 is mainly based on Super Resolution/Detail Enhancement, not on the optical/technical properties of my projector.

Isn´t it the case in your comparison with your projector 3800 ?

I have also an bigger issue with rec709 and a smaller with BT2020 in factory presets of my 3800, will perhaps provide datas of color comparison/calibr. later.
I also wanted to respond to this after more testing. I am not noticing this on my 3800 compared to the 5050. They both function very similarly in my case. With 1080 video you can either play it in 1080, which makes the screen door effect obvious. You can turn on 4k up conversion, which at a distance looks basically the same as 1080, but up close removes the screen door. But then when you start adding super resolution and detail enhancement the image gets more and more 4k looking, but at its higher settings it can add some noise. I am really impressed with both of these projectors' ability to make HD material look 4k. With native 4k material they are very similar in sharpness/perceived-resolution.
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Last edited by Bluered Leaves; 12-03-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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post #368 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAMET View Post
Dear Friends

I have reached one person, who I trust and I have an information, that EH-TW7100 has much greater black levels then EH-TW7000. He has seen both at the same time with the same video material. It's not visible during source of light, but when you will have no light sources and your room will be dark: "it's huge difference". I have also reached person, who sell those projectors and he told me, that they have resigned from on-line public comparison, because they will never sell EH-TW7000. So...

...anyway I will still be waiting for professional public tests of those two projectors, before I decide to spare 500 EUR more.

It's hard to find someone, who will compare those two projectors in Poland. USA is a big country, don't you have there any shops, who sell HC3800 and HC3200 and you may see there a comparison of them on your own eyes? I would be glad, for any informations about black levels of those two projectors.

Sincerely
If this is accurate my guess is it is the way the auto iris functions. And (if this is the case) I wonder whether it is a difference in how it is programmed (software) or if it is actually a different auto iris (hardware).
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post #369 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 10:29 AM
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Dear Bluered Leaves

Unfortunately, I don't know, how it works. It's not related, but EH-TW7100 has also dedicated two more aspect ratios: "Anamorphic Wide and Horiz. Squeeze are only displayed for the EH-TW7100".

I see that you own HC3800, may I please you for a favor? I described it in my last post.

I have also a question related with HDMI cables. If I will connect let say:

PS4 Pro to Onkyo TX-NR686 to Epson EH-TW7100 and signal will be 4K HDR @60, what will happen, when my HDMI cable will cannot afford 18Gbps? I will not see anything, or the picture will be with some errors? How do I know, if HDMI cable is capable of?

Sincerely

VAMET
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post #370 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by VAMET View Post
Dear Friends

I would like to ask owners of EH-TW7000 (HC3200) or EH-TW7100 (HC3800) for a favor. May you be so kind and measure distances marked with arrows (only RED and GREEN) in this picture:



Thank you in advance for your help.

Sincerely
The red is 11 inches or 279.4mm
The green is 2 inches or 50.6mm
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post #371 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluered Leaves View Post
I wanted to give an update

I have been comparing the 5050ub and 3800 and have a bit more to add

The 3800 does get quite dark, not as dark as the 5050, but pretty close. However this is mostly due to the dynamic iris with the 3800, whereas the 5050 relies more on inherent contrast.

At first I was comparing dark video and they do seem to be somewhat comparable in this area, with the 5050 being the winner in every way: detail, darkness, color and contrast - however the 3800 is quite good and impressive. I actually notice a bigger difference in brighter footage, with the 5050 having significantly more contrast - it looks a lot more like a huge TV than a projector - with clearly deeper darks and contrast. This is the limitation the 3800 really faces relying on an auto iris for much of it's contrast. Further the auto iris opening and closing on the 3800 is noticeable, while on the 5050 it is not - this is likely due to the 3800 using the auto iris much more aggressively, while the 5050 is using it more subtly.

Of course the more light you add to the room the less and less what I described above matters. I added black fabric to the first 4 feet of my ceiling above my screen which made the difference in contrast much more apparent. If you are in a room with all white walls, I doubt you will notice any difference with black levels or contrast.



I also wanted to respond to this after more testing. I am not noticing this on my 3800 compared to the 5050. They both function very similarly in my case. With 1080 video you can either play it in 1080, which makes the screen door effect obvious. You can turn on 4k up conversion, which at a distance looks basically the same as 1080, but up close removes the screen door. But then when you start adding super resolution and detail enhancement the image gets more and more 4k looking, but at its higher settings it can add some noise. I am really impressed with both of these projectors' ability to make HD material look 4k. With native 4k material they are very similar in sharpness/perceived-resolution.
Hi I do not question your observations, but one of the most trusted testers in the world about the Epson 5050 says:

High brightness and contrast usually do not mix with transmissive LCD panels.
This is again the case with this model where the native contrast after calibration peaks at 1450: 1
To improve the situation it will be necessary to involve the dynamic iris which fortunately over the models has become much more discreet in its operation.
With the help of this device and with just colors we obtain a dynamic contrast of 10890: 1.

After testing the 3800 model he gave the following results:

The native contrast of the TW7100 remains in the levels of the one measured on the 1080P generation (around 1800/1).
The two dynamic contrast levels increase measurements beyond 20000: 1 but with noticeable operation in the faster mode.

both tests are available at passionhomecinema.fr

An additional note from me - I have an appointment to watch both 3200 and 3800 models side by side in "projectory.pro" - this is the store about which VAMET wrote
I am very curious about this live test, I will write about my impressions.
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post #372 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 12:43 PM
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sorry, my mistake - the test concerned the TW7400 model and it is equivalent to 4010 in the US and not the 5050 model


model 5050 according to the same tester achieves a native contrast of 2839: 1

and the 6050 has a 3782: 1 contrast ratio
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post #373 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 02:16 PM
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Okay, which wins between conjecture and hearsay?
Any lawyers in here? A judge, maybe?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Deja vu. We went through this same exercise with the Epson HC 2100 and HC 2150 (EH-TW5600 and EH-TW5650). Epson claims the 2150 (5650) has nearly double the contrast of the 2100 (5600). No trusted independent source ever published instrumented measurements to verify this. Everyone had different opinions and believed what they wanted to believe. Most on this forum assumed the contrast specification difference was pure marketing. YMMV.
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post #374 of 413 Old 12-03-2019, 03:20 PM
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The 3800 definitely has an aggressive iris (as I have mentioned several times in this thread), it's more aggressive than the 4010 that I currently own by a good bit.

The 3800 without the iris active (native) has worse full field black than the 4010 native but with the iris active (on the 3800) it clamps down even more than the 4010 (which it needs and can get away with due to its higher lumen output).

The degree at which the iris (pumping) becomes visible depends upon the setting in use and the content being viewed, this is not model specific.

Obviously the 5050 is in another league when it comes to black level/contrast due to its dual iris system (Dynamic and Manual).

- Jason

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post #375 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by proddan View Post
Look guys I'll make it simple for you..

Buy a DLP Optoma or Benq and you will be more than happy

That's all true to some extent, DLP is generally more reliable, but life is a gamble sometimes, so just depends. You can lose the gamble on DLP too, but it is generally speaking WAY more reliable than LCD for long-term use.

The Benq ht9060 would likely be the take all winner compared to the other projectors in here, but it's expensive (not in same budget), has more lag, and contrast isn't as good as the Epson 5050. However, I think if you were judging it purely on the sharpness, it really is going to be so many steps ahead of some of these others (according to those in JVC threads).

The sharpness (or lack thereof) in LCD projectors never really bothered me that much, some Epsons were pretty sharp, about as sharp as JVC's in many cases (luck of the draw). What always drove me crazy about LCD's was the way the image would suddenly look flat and lack depth, and this happens randomly, it's some kind of optical illusion. Never spent any real-time with 4k stuff on any Epson though, only seen it in stores / showrooms, so hard to tell.

There was a great deal on the Optoma UHL55 for a refurb, I was going to pick one up, but it had ZERO zoom, just cannot live with no zoom, even though technically it would fit.

I'm still waiting for Samsung's "The Wall" / Micro-LED to become affordable, but I have noticed some greying in the mirror lately.

I'm almost willing to give an Epson LCD projector another shot, but I think I would probably end up thinking the same thing as I thought before, a bit of a rough looking image for movies at times. I don't know, might try one just for the heck of it.

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post #376 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 01:52 AM
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The other instance where sharpness is very important (besides gaming) is when zooming for scope, per not the right way to do scope, it works fine when zooming if you have enough sharpness to spare. This is the main reason i would want 4k to be honest, but so many movies are from 2k masters, sigh... I'm not into a lot of the newer big name movies, so there are even fewer of the types of movies I watch that were sourced from actual 4k masters, so it's a tough environment.

If you are zooming with a Native 4k projector with a movie that was from an actual 4k master, should be better than an A-lens theoretically or at least equal (though not as bright), but it depends on the lens as well. The best A-Lens are ridiculously expensive (a "Paladin DCR" costs more than some JVC's, just to put some perspective on this)....

EDIT
The Epson 5050 is generally around 5000:1 Native after a proper calibration, and the dynamic contrast just depends what DI mode you want to use, it can go pretty high, higher than some JVC's Native. You will see wildly varying measurements in Native Contrast because tiny changes in calibration on LCD can greatly affect the native contrast. Just look at S&V and Cine4's measurements in various calibration modes of the Epsons, the average is somewhere in the ballpark of 5000:1 at best, 4000:1 at worst. Anything less than 3500:1 is just a bad calibration and should be started over really. I calibrated an Epson 5020 and was able to get 6000:1 Native surprisingly, and even a bit higher in some other modes. This was measured with a certified very expensive Sekonic meter (then confirmed with a c6 as well), but it was a long time ago. Haven't messed with an Epson in a long time. So I would be very surprised if any capable calibrator cannot get at least 5000:1 out of the newer Epson (and I'm not even that good of a calibrator, too old school).

There is some variance to most LCOS and LCD projectors for contrast (some of it is calibration, some of it is panel defects). I measured an RS-46 once at only 16,000:1 and the next RS-46 at 28,000:1 (in the same room at the same time, both projectors with lamps outputting near the same lumens), whereas my own JVC measured closer to 34k:1. Don't ever buy into the fact that 2 brand new perfectly working projectors always have the same contrast as published specs (usually they are close, but there are outliers about 20% of the time, sometimes worse). I have also seen other projectors that measured under/over spec.

This is another 'minor' hit against LCD, LCOS native contrast is much more consistent and not as calibration dependent, though calibration does affect LCOS contrast slightly, but usually to a much lesser degree. LCOS contrast is more affected by 'luck of the draw', whereas LCD contrast is more consistent between models, but more affected by calibration. It's just one more reason no-one ever can measure contrast the same (one of many).

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Last edited by coderguy; 12-04-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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post #377 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
... Obviously the 5050 is in another league when it comes to black level/contrast due to its dual iris system (Dynamic and Manual). ...
Just to be clear, native contrast is what the projector produces without use of an iris or other add-on device. When we add the effect of an iris to the equation we go from native contrast to dynamic contrast. It's Epson's Ultra Black panels that give the 5050UB superior native contrast to non-UB Epsons. It's the UB panels and dual iris system working together that give the 5050UB great all-around contrast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Just to be clear, native contrast is what the projector produces without use of an iris or other add-on device. When we add the effect of an iris to the equation we go from native contrast to dynamic contrast. It's Epson's Ultra Black panels that give the 5050UB superior native contrast to non-UB Epsons. It's the UB panels and dual iris system working together that give the 5050UB great all-around contrast.
Indeed, but obviously there's more to it than just the UB panel variance, my comment was not meant to imply that the only difference was the dual iris (I should have been more clear).

It's also the dual iris system that takes the black level and contrast to another level beyond the other models being discussed in this thread.

I have calibrated a couple of older 50xx UB models and have owned the 3800, 4010 so I have a fairly sound grasp of the variance.

- Jason

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post #379 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 01:34 PM
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@DaGamePimp , I knew you knew. I was just trying to fill in the blanks for others who might be reading this. Many who are new to projectors may not understand the difference between native and dynamic contrast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@DaGamePimp , I knew you knew. I was just trying to fill in the blanks for others who might be reading this. Many who are new to projectors may not understand the difference between native and dynamic contrast.
No worries, you were absolutely correct to clarify what I did not, I tend to overlook the 'new to projection' aspect fairly often.

- Jason
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post #381 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
Indeed, but obviously there's more to it than just the UB panel variance, my comment was not meant to imply that the only difference was the dual iris (I should have been more clear).

It's also the dual iris system that takes the black level and contrast to another level beyond the other models being discussed in this thread.

I have calibrated a couple of older 50xx UB models and have owned the 3800, 4010 so I have a fairly sound grasp of the variance.

- Jason
I am currently a 5030 owner (sounds like maybe you are/were too...) looking to get into the 4k(ish), lower latency game for movies/streaming/gaming. I've actually been super happy with the setup for the 5 years Ive had the 5030, except for the gaming latency. That said, there is more and more 4k content available both streaming and gaming so Ive been looking to upgrade. Given how happy Ive been with the 5030, the 5050 is the logical move, but Ive been reading that I may not be able to tell the difference between the 5050 and the 3800 in my living room environment (116" ALR screen, white ceiling, tan walls) and saving $1k seems pretty nice. I do watch with the lights turned down at night, but I dont really have a sense if the superior native contrast of the 5050 will matter given my environment. Also, Ive always felt that the 5030 was a little physically imposing for my space, and the 5050 is considerably larger than that, so the size of the 3800 is appealing...

Any thoughts on my dilemma?

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post #382 of 413 Old 12-04-2019, 04:33 PM
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I am currently a 5030 owner (sounds like maybe you are/were too...) looking to get into the 4k(ish), lower latency game for movies/streaming/gaming. I've actually been super happy with the setup for the 5 years Ive had the 5030, except for the gaming latency. That said, there is more and more 4k content available both streaming and gaming so Ive been looking to upgrade. Given how happy Ive been with the 5030, the 5050 is the logical move, but Ive been reading that I may not be able to tell the difference between the 5050 and the 3800 in my living room environment (116" ALR screen, white ceiling, tan walls) and saving $1k seems pretty nice. I do watch with the lights turned down at night, but I dont really have a sense if the superior native contrast of the 5050 will matter given my environment. Also, Ive always felt that the 5030 was a little physically imposing for my space, and the 5050 is considerably larger than that, so the size of the 3800 is appealing...

Any thoughts on my dilemma?
I did not own the older 50xx series, my cousin did (a couple of different models and several samples).

You would still see a difference from the 3800 to the 5050ub but it would be less substantial in a non ideal room (meaning you will not realize the full potential of either unit).

The 3800 will be a significant gain regarding gaming (input lag) from the 5030ub, no doubt there.

The 5050ub is sharper (as is the 4010 that I currently have) and this has a definite advantage regarding resolving more detail (there is more to gain from the 1080p x2 resolution bump).

- Of course there can be sample to sample variance here regarding the lens and the end result obtained due to mounting aspects (more lens shift will be more visible on the 3800).

If you get a solid unit the 3800 throws a very nice image but it's just not going to compete over-all with the 5050ub (which it not meant to imply anything other than the 5050 is just the better unit, as it should be).

I have not owned the 5050ub but I have viewed one in Magnolia several times, let's just say that their set-up is not optimized enough to base an over-all opinion on it (other than it's easy to see that it bests the 3800).

- Jason

HT = Epson 5050ub @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Panasonic UB820
Media Room = Sony 65x930e / Denon x3300 /Klipsch speakers /Velodyne subs /Sony x700 /PS4 Pro + PSVR/WiiU/PS3/360/Wii/ 2080 TI - 9900K PC / Multi-Arcade / Virtual Pinball TRE45ON
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I am currently a 5030 owner (sounds like maybe you are/were too...) looking to get into the 4k(ish), lower latency game for movies/streaming/gaming. I've actually been super happy with the setup for the 5 years Ive had the 5030, except for the gaming latency. That said, there is more and more 4k content available both streaming and gaming so Ive been looking to upgrade. Given how happy Ive been with the 5030, the 5050 is the logical move, but Ive been reading that I may not be able to tell the difference between the 5050 and the 3800 in my living room environment (116" ALR screen, white ceiling, tan walls) and saving $1k seems pretty nice. I do watch with the lights turned down at night, but I dont really have a sense if the superior native contrast of the 5050 will matter given my environment. Also, Ive always felt that the 5030 was a little physically imposing for my space, and the 5050 is considerably larger than that, so the size of the 3800 is appealing...
Any thoughts on my dilemma?
I don't think the Epsons have changed in contrast very much at all since the 5010-5050, they are all roughly the same.
The DI has been changed some though.

Ironically, it's easier to see a difference with Native Contrast in a room with white walls, than in a dark black room.
The reason is because in a white room, all the walls are lit up from the LACK of Native Contrast, so it's blazingly obvious (it's like turning a night light on and off if I compare a JVC to a DLP in a white room).
Now you won't see the effects of Native Contrast to instrascene contrast improve images with a high mix of white and dark in a white room, because your ANSI is ruined, but if you do a total blackout, the difference is even more obvious in a room with white walls.

I cannot imagine the 5050 and 5030 looking much different other than brightness and the pixel shift ability of the 5050.

You would have to go with a used JVC (or B-stock) if you really want those deeply extremely dark blacks, as far as in comparison to what you have now.
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It might be the panels, sometimes it is a fixed aperture that increases the contrast, then they just amp the brightness to compensate on certain models.
That way they don't have to make different panels for different projectors. I do not know if this is true on Epsons, have never analyzed the panels.

As an example, it was assumed that a higher-end JVC would do higher contrast because of a superior panel design or an added/enhanced polarizer design. It's at least partly in question though.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...cond-iris.html

Others have surmised, that the panel quality is nearly the same, but the real increase in contrast is because of the extra aperture inside the projector in the light path.
If you open up a low-end JVC, you can see the empty space where the extra aperture goes, and you can CHEAT and add it yourself. However, doing so causes some air circulation issues (though some have done it successfully without issues - see thread above), because the higher end JVC's also have another fan path mod to help cooling from the aperture blocking part of the path.

I never tried the above MOD because I didn't want to lose 20% of my brightness to gain only double the contrast. I was already low on brightness, though I did consider trying the mod and measuring. The thread cannot be fully trusted because he didn't do any measurements, but it was interesting. The enhanced polarizers on the higher end JVC's appear to be there to compensate the brightness loss, rather than to increase the contrast, again supposedly...

Could you do this with an Epson 4010 series, who knows, would have to open both up to see what differences exist inside I suppose.
It wouldn't really be worth it on the Epsons, given the much less price differential. The JVC price differentials are somewhat ridiculous (even more so in past years).

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I don't think the Epsons have changed in contrast very much at all since the 5010-5050, they are all roughly the same.
The DI has been changed some though.

Ironically, it's easier to see a difference with Native Contrast in a room with white walls, than in a dark black room.
The reason is because in a white room, all the walls are lit up from the LACK of Native Contrast, so it's blazingly obvious (it's like turning a night light on and off if I compare a JVC to a DLP in a white room).
Now you won't see the effects of Native Contrast to instrascene contrast improve images with a high mix of white and dark in a white room, because your ANSI is ruined, but if you do a total blackout, the difference is even more obvious in a room with white walls.

I cannot imagine the 5050 and 5030 looking much different other than brightness and the pixel shift ability of the 5050.

You would have to go with a used JVC (or B-stock) if you really want those deeply extremely dark blacks, as far as in comparison to what you have now.
I know this topic has been researched by ProjectionDream, but what do you think the APL value would be that, in a room with white walls, the difference would be noticeable between a low contrast PJ and a decent/high contrast model?

Secondly, how much would an ALR/grey screen or a paint mix like SilverFire/Blackflame help with keeping contrast in a white wall setup?
In other words, how much CR can be saved/what is the CR limit in such a setup, with a white screen, but also with other types of screens?

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post #386 of 413 Old 12-05-2019, 02:03 AM
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I know this topic has been researched by ProjectionDream, but what do you think the APL value would be that, in a room with white walls, the difference would be noticeable between a low contrast PJ and a decent/high contrast model?

Secondly, how much would an ALR/grey screen or a paint mix like SilverFire/Blackflame help with keeping contrast in a white wall setup?
In other words, how much CR can be saved/what is the CR limit in such a setup, with a white screen, but also with other types of screens?
Some screens can save quite a bit of CR, but not sure about that specific screen. The Da-Lite HP screen was somewhat good at it, but now discontinued.

Any darker paint helps a lot compared to white walls, but Triple Black Velvet is even better. My room is covered in Triple Black Velvet, you can get a 30-yard bolt of it on Amazon for $160.
See the Black is better thread in the 3k+ section of this forum for ideas on treating a room (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...image-231.html).

Just to re-emphasize, between a high native contrast projector and a DLP projector, you can see the difference in any room.
However, when talking about smaller differences, like one LCD to another, that might be a bit harder.
Movies and some TV shows do those short blackouts between scenes as a transition, you're going to notice that pretty easily in any room even if just comparing an Epson LCD to a DLP.

The type of room where you would fail to see any difference would be in a room with ambient light.

In a large enough room, you can still get 'ok - not great' ANSI contrast with white walls (say a 30' x 30' room with a high ceiling).

Per specific numbers, this would be hard to quantify due to varying room and screen conditions.

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Any darker paint helps a lot compared to white walls, but Triple Black Velvet is even better. My room is covered in Triple Black Velvet, you can get a 30-yard bolt of it on Amazon for $160.
See the Black is better thread in the 3k+ section of this forum for ideas on treating a room (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...image-231.html).
The room has white walls, and except for blackout blinds can't be helped unfortunately. It's 5x4m (16x13ft) with 2.5m/8ft ceiling.
No ambient light.

Quote:
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Just to re-emphasize, between a high native contrast projector and a DLP projector, you can see the difference in any room.
However, when talking about smaller differences, like one LCD to another, that might be a bit harder.
Movies and some TV shows do those short blackouts between scenes as a transition, you're going to notice that pretty easily in any room even if just comparing an Epson LCD to a DLP.
Above you mentioned
you won't see the effects of Native Contrast to instrascene contrast improve images with a high mix of white and dark in a white room, because your ANSI is ruined, but if you do a total blackout, the difference is even more obvious in a room with white walls.

Are the improvements between DLP and and some sort of good/high contrast LCD/LCoS apparent in mixed content as well? The APL I'm trying to improve is 0-3%. So not a high mix of white and dark. Dark scenes, shadows in dark scenes.


Current PJ is a DLP (HT3050) on a Cinegrey 3D (real gain probably 0.8-1.0, claims 65% light rejection capability).
Planning on changing to the SilverFire mix, which can go in gain from 0.9 to 1.3.

Trying to squeeze as much contrast as possible.
The 3050 has a native CR of ~1600:1, and dynamic (with lamp dimming) of ~4500:1, or so I'm told.

Besides the screen, I wanted to know if a projector with higher CR is worth it. And if it is, what would be the upper limit.
For instance, would a TW9400 (6050UB) be overkill? With the use of the active iris.
What about an older TW9200 (5030UB)?
Or would a TW7000 (HC3200)/W2700 (HT3550)/be more appropriate since they also have active irises. The W5700(HT5550) apparently has better black levels than the W2700. Other option here with an iris would be the TW7400 (HC4010).

Any insight would be appreciated.

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post #388 of 413 Old 12-05-2019, 02:54 AM
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It's hard to quantify, but if I do my best...

Just to put some perspective on this
I've had projectors in about 7 different rooms over the years, including JVC and DLP's right next to each other.
So I've watched these for thousands of hours in different rooms, including perfect bat caves vs small rooms with white walls to everything between.

I would say because some scenes in movies go so ridiculously dark, there is no real limit, but then how much is worth it isn't really possible to answer, just depends on each individual's tastes.
For instance, there are plenty of scenes where a guy is just walking around in dark clothes in almost total pitch black right before he gets AXE'd near a barn.
You're going to see the difference in any room in that type of scene.

If you were to watch something like the scene of an Earth panning in space, you're not going to see as much difference, but you'll notice it before it gets too much coverage on the scene.
This is where the ANSI contrast kills the image in a white room, such as if there is too much bright light in the scene.

For starfield type scenes, well they are still going to look much much better on the higher CR projector, regardless of the room.
Unless the starfield scene just has some bright nebula or planet in it (or a sun obviously)...

How much difference, anything from almost as much as in a perfect room, to about half as much.
The contrast won't measure nearly as high with a meter, but things are all relative, your eyes will still pick up the difference.
The problem is the white light reflecting off the wall from any given scene, but in darker scenes that because more normalized (to a degree at least).

That is me trying to quantify it based on experience, but your results may vary due to your precise room conditions.
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It's hard to quantify, but if I do my best...

Just to put some perspective on this
I've had projectors in about 7 different rooms over the years, including JVC and DLP's right next to each other.
So I've watched these for thousands of hours in different rooms, including perfect bat caves vs small rooms with white walls to everything between.

I would say because some scenes in movies go so ridiculously dark, there is no real limit, but then how much is worth it isn't really possible to answer, just depends on each individual's tastes.
For instance, there are plenty of scenes where a guy is just walking around in dark clothes in almost total pitch black right before he gets AXE'd near a barn.
You're going to see the difference in any room in that type of scene.

If you were to watch something like the scene of an Earth panning in space, you're not going to see as much difference, but you'll notice it before it gets too much coverage on the scene.
This is where the ANSI contrast kills the image in a white room, such as if there is too much bright light in the scene.

For starfield type scenes, well they are still going to look much much better on the higher CR projector, regardless of the room.
Unless the starfield scene just has some bright nebula or planet in it (or a sun obviously)...

How much difference, anything from almost as much as in a perfect room, to about half as much.
The contrast won't measure nearly as high with a meter, but things are all relative, your eyes will still pick up the difference.
The problem is the white light reflecting off the wall from any given scene, but in darker scenes that because more normalized (to a degree at least).

That is me trying to quantify it based on experience, but your results may vary due to your precise room conditions.
Thank you for the input.
Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I know it's difficult trying to estimate these things, just trying to see what direction I should take equipment wise.

That sounds really encouraging, but what about the measurements taken by the PD article?
https://projectiondream.com/en/contr...r-environment/

In the graphs with the TW9200 and VW520ES there are two points between 0 and 5% ADL. I assume these are 1 and 2% (?).
In a room with white walls, the TW9200 seems to stall at around 2000:1 CR for 1% ADL and 1200:1 CR for 2%.
The VW520ES seems to stall at around 3000:1 CR for 1% ADL and 1600:1 CR for 2%.






I remember reading that CR above 4000:1 are more difficult to observe than under that value.


I assume these are native contrast values. The article does not say anything about the use of an iris, or the dimming function on the W1070.
Since the HT3050 has ~4500:1 CR with the lamp dimming, would it behave in a similar fashion the TW9200 without the iris (as in the graph) at 1 and 2% ADL?
Or would a cheaper projector with an iris like the HC3200/HT3550 with iris have similar results as the VW520ES without one?

And all of these measurements were taken on I assume a 1.0 white screen, and some kind of grey/ALR paint would help?


The ADL where the shadows are grey is probably around 1-2%, which I understand where the iris helps the most.
In this post, this picture is 2.96% ADL:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57973558

This would be the upper limit of where the improvements should take place.
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post #390 of 413 Old 12-05-2019, 07:08 AM
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That chart is misinterpreted, here is why...

He is measuring ADL contrast, that is not the same as Native On/Off contrast.
Just as a pseudo example (not real numbers), let's say a JVC that does 200,000:1 contrast could only produce 5,000:1 at certain ADL's below 10%.

Well you could take a DLP that does 3000:1 contrast, and it may only be producing 300:1 contrast at the same ADL, even though it's Native is 3000:1.
It's a completely different ratio, because intrascene contrast is based on ANSI and Native.
Having higher native only increases Intrascene contrast (mostly in darker scenes, where ANSI affects bright scenes).
That is why in his charts the Sony (which has much higher native contrast) has such a fast drop off.

Here is the problem when talking about white walls, what that is not considering or counting is the fact that the light pollution is also affecting your eyes.
Hence, any light that is hitting the side walls is not just hurting the screen's contrast, but it is very distracting to your eyes to try to maintain focus without noticing the white walls being lit up.

That is why we use Triple Black Velvet, it's not because the ANSI measures so much higher than using black walls, it's because we want to see the screen look like it's floating.
We don't want to see anything else.

I honestly wish he had never posted those charts, all it has done is created more confusion for people than it has solved.

Furthermore, when you are talking low contrast numbers (like 100:1), it doesn't take much to see an improvement.
Even 250:1 is a huge improvement over 100:1 in most cases.

Also, I wouldn't take those measurements to the bank, meters have issues trying to pick up small light scatter areas using small ADL patterns.
I've never even been able to measure an ADL pattern perfectly, unless I were to use a 300" screen or larger, then it is easier.
I mean I can measure some ADL patterns with some accuracy, but the errors get higher and higher as the amount of white on the screen gets too small (it's hard to pinpoint the meter to small white boxes).

I can absolutely guarantee you that in a room with white walls, projectors with higher Native contrast still trump lower Native contrast projectors.
For blackout scenes, even more than in a perfect room. Sure, there are some scenes that are destroyed, but it's not a majority, maybe half at most in a really bad room with the walls really close.
If you have some distance between the white walls and your screen, then it becomes even better.
It's the "almost dark" mixed scenes that are really destroyed with white walls, more than the darker scenes like starfields.

Honestly though, if I were you, I'd find some way to hide curtains. I know it's a lot of work, but you should look into some type of molding configuration where you can hide the curtains behind a molding by wrapping them up, or possibly velcro strips and just remove the curtains when you are done watching. That way you can have a nice room without any eye sore, I imagine it is your other half (GF or Wife) that is the problem.
You can also do motorized curtains, some of the motorized options are not nearly as expensive as you might think.
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