Epson HC 3200 and 3800 revealed - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
That's not really counter to what I recommend. I always recommend that those more focused on the finest color accuracy find a way not to need a bright room light cannon. So we're in agreement there. I only recommend the small green bias fix to those who prioritize brightness over absolute color accuracy. Untrained eyes are very forgiving of minor color inaccuracies. Beyond that any ambient light that hits the screen skews the colors anyway, so getting great color accuracy in a room full of changing ambient light is an exercise in futility. Getting colors close enough to appear generally natural is about the most anyone can realistically expect from a bright room light cannon being used in ambient light.


Gotcha. Didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. I had thought that your response to the member above was suggesting that getting a calibration on one of these was as good as buying any other projector including one meant for a dark room with better out-of-the-box color accuracy.

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post #242 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 12:15 PM
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Sorry, I got busy yesterday and was unable to fire up the PJ's, will work on it over the next couple days (regarding the HW45ES vs HC3800).

The 45es is extremely accurate out of the box while the HC3800 is good (not excellent).

I will say that they trade punches, 45es wins one round and then the HC3800 wins the next (due to content/source variance).

With all three units in direct comparison (HT3550, HC3800 and HW45es) the 45es actually has the purest/brightest whites (D65/6500k), then the HC3800 and last the HT3550 (which honestly looks gray in comparison to the other two). Of the three my HT3550 is definitely the unit that will require the most calibration work versus it's best out of the box presets (regarding D65/6500k/rec.709).

I'll state the obvious, the 45es easily wins on native contrast (among the three being discussed). The HC3800 can get darker on full field black with the iris active. The 45es bests the HT3550 even with it's iris active. The downside to the HC3800 is the iris is visible at times, more so than the iris on the HT3550 (but the HC3800 iris is more aggressive).

The HC3800 and HT3550 beat the 45es when it comes to color, the Sony is limited to rec.709 while the other two can exceed it (especially the HT3550 with wcg filter).

I will post more on the 45es vs HC3800 but over-all (my opinion is that) it's more of a side-step than a true upgrade (going from 45es to the HC3800). Consider that my 45es is still very bright with only 187 hours of total use on it's original lamp. That does not mean that there are not certain areas where the HC3800 shines, it's just an uphill battle versus the 45es when it comes to over-all image quality under $2K.


More coming soon...

- Jason

HT = Epson HC3800 - BenQ HT3550 - Sony HW45ES @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Panasonic UB820
Media Room = Sony 65x930e / Denon x3300 /Klipsch speakers /Velodyne subs /Sony x700 /PS4 Pro + PSVR/WiiU/PS3/360/Wii/ 2080 TI - 9900K PC / Multi-Arcade / Virtual Pinball TRE45ON

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post #243 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 01:57 PM
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Isn't the Sony 45es due for an upgrade soon?
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post #244 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
They actually sell an LCOS right now— the Pro Cinema LS10500 “reflective laser” projector. But it is a similar 1080p X2 solution that they use in the rest of their lineup.

I have no idea what the technical hurdles might be towards getting affordable 4K or 4K pixel shift 3LCDs to market might be. All I know is LCD and LCD based tech all have this similar limitation in pixel response time that makes a quad shift impossible. I gotta believe they’re looking into it.. A lot of people were expecting a native 4K announcement this past summer. Hell, a lot of people think they sell a native 4K model now because Epson’s marketing is super misleading on this.
I spoke with the dealer I bought my TW9400 from and he said that he saw a prototype Native 4K Epson around two years ago so the technology is already available plus Epson are the leader in commercial projector technology so the know how is there, maybe there are other factors holding them back from introducing a native 4K domestic PJ that we don’t know about?

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post #245 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
Sorry, I got busy yesterday and was unable to fire up the PJ's, will work on it over the next couple days (regarding the HW45ES vs HC3800).

The 45es is extremely accurate out of the box while the HC3800 is good (not excellent).

I will say that they trade punches, 45es wins one round and then the HC3800 wins the next (due to content/source variance).

With all three units in direct comparison (HT3550, HC3800 and HW45es) the 45es actually has the purest/brightest whites (D65/6500k), then the HC3800 and last the HT3550 (which honestly looks gray in comparison to the other two). Of the three my HT3550 is definitely the unit that will require the most calibration work versus it's best out of the box presets (regarding D65/6500k/rec.709).

I'll state the obvious, the 45es easily wins on native contrast (among the three being discussed). The HC3800 can get darker on full field black with the iris active. The 45es bests the HT3550 even with it's iris active. The downside to the HC3800 is the iris is visible at times, more so than the iris on the HT3550 (but the HC3800 iris is more aggressive).

The HC3800 and HT3550 beat the 45es when it comes to color, the Sony is limited to rec.709 while the other two can exceed it (especially the HT3550 with wcg filter).

I will post more on the 45es vs HC3800 but over-all (my opinion is that) it's more of a side-step than a true upgrade (going from 45es to the HC3800). Consider that my 45es is still very bright with only 187 hours of total use on it's original lamp. That does not mean that there are not certain areas where the HC3800 shines, it's just an uphill battle versus the 45es when it comes to over-all image quality under $2K.


More coming soon...

- Jason
The HW45es is a real hard act to follow for most projectors, even my TW9400 isn’t a huge step up, in fact when both are feed a 1080P disc I feel like you do that my Epson is only a sideways step rather than an upgrade.... it’s not till you feed it a UHD disc with HDR that the Epson truly feels like an upgrade.
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post #246 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
The HW45es is a real hard act to follow for most projectors, even my TW9400 isn’t a huge step up, in fact when both are feed a 1080P disc I feel like you do that my Epson is only a sideways step rather than an upgrade.... it’s not till you feed it a UHD disc with HDR that the Epson truly feels like an upgrade.
Absolutely, when all three units I have here are fed 1080p SDR the 45es wins. If I feed them HDR via a UHD source (tone mapped via Panasonic UB820 or Sony X800) both the HC3800 & HT3550 show some gains over the 45es (color being the most obvious).

- Jason

HT = Epson HC3800 - BenQ HT3550 - Sony HW45ES @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Panasonic UB820
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post #247 of 300 Old 11-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom J. Davis View Post
Isn't the Sony 45es due for an upgrade soon?


One would think...

The 45es replaced the 40es back in 2016 and was considered a modest but notable upgrade over that model. The 40es, just an FYI, launched in 2014. So I’d say we’re due for a new affordable model from Sony. But the problem is what replaces it? Sony went all in on native 4K and never dabbled in the 1080p x2 “faux”K that JVC pioneered and Epson continues to use to this day. I’d love to see a 1080p X2 version of the 45ES but I don’t think it will happen. My guess is they’ll let the 45es kick around for another year or two until their native 4K projectors become more affordable and can slide into or at least near that price slot.
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post #248 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
One would think...

The 45es replaced the 40es back in 2016 and was considered a modest but notable upgrade over that model. The 40es, just an FYI, launched in 2014. So I’d say we’re due for a new affordable model from Sony. But the problem is what replaces it? Sony went all in on native 4K and never dabbled in the 1080p x2 “faux”K that JVC pioneered and Epson continues to use to this day. I’d love to see a 1080p X2 version of the 45ES but I don’t think it will happen. My guess is they’ll let the 45es kick around for another year or two until their native 4K projectors become more affordable and can slide into or at least near that price slot.
This was exactly what I was telling a member of AVForum, you look at JVC... now that they have introduced their full range of Native 4K models there’s no word on replacing their DLA-X range. I just can’t see Sony replacing their HW range.

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post #249 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 10:20 AM
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I’m still rocking a 12 year old Sony 720p so anything I buy will be an upgrade. Lol.
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post #250 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 11:53 AM
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Epson HC 3200 and 3800 revealed

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Originally Posted by Tom J. Davis View Post
I’m still rocking a 12 year old Sony 720p so anything I buy will be an upgrade. Lol.


Yeah at that point I would say even a 1080p model will feel like quite an upgrade.

I remember going from 720p to 1080p and I upset a few people on the forum here when I said the difference was night and day. I’m a big proponent for 4K but even I will admit the switch from 1080p to 4K was probably not as big of a jump as it was going from 720p to 1080p. Going from 720p HD to Full 1080p HD is literally doubling the number of pixels on screen— and that big of a jump at that end of the resolution spectrum is no joke.

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post #251 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 11:57 AM
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This was exactly what I was telling a member of AVForum, you look at JVC... now that they have introduced their full range of Native 4K models there’s no word on replacing their DLA-X range. I just can’t see Sony replacing their HW range.
They replaced it with the 4K lineup. The one year closeout/price reduction on the RS540 was not the norm throughout the product run. So no one should be expecting them to provide that level of performance at a sub $4k level. If you look at the product lineup the RS4xx -> RS1000/NX5, RS5xx -> RS2000/NX7, and RS6xx -> RS3000/NX9. Granted the price points changed, especially on the high end. The DLP model seems to be what they want to push sub $4k.

Sony is in a bit of a bind. Their 295 ES projector is already fairly stripped down. No lens memory, no color filter, no iris. I suppose they could change to manual focus and zoom, but they'd need to cut pricing about $2500 to make it the new HW45. And honestly with as poor of a value as the 295 is, it needs a serious adjustment. It's performance warrants $3500 at best.

I'd love to see JVC put out an e-shift entry level model, but I doubt it's cost effective for them. If Epson can get a 4K LCD out under $3500 that has close to the contrast they have now they'd have a very hot product.
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post #252 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 12:17 PM
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They replaced it with the 4K lineup. The one year closeout/price reduction on the RS540 was not the norm throughout the product run. So no one should be expecting them to provide that level of performance at a sub $4k level. If you look at the product lineup the RS4xx -> RS1000/NX5, RS5xx -> RS2000/NX7, and RS6xx -> RS3000/NX9. Granted the price points changed, especially on the high end. The DLP model seems to be what they want to push sub $4k.

Sony is in a bit of a bind. Their 295 ES projector is already fairly stripped down. No lens memory, no color filter, no iris. I suppose they could change to manual focus and zoom, but they'd need to cut pricing about $2500 to make it the new HW45. And honestly with as poor of a value as the 295 is, it needs a serious adjustment. It's performance warrants $3500 at best.

I'd love to see JVC put out an e-shift entry level model, but I doubt it's cost effective for them. If Epson can get a 4K LCD out under $3500 that has close to the contrast they have now they'd have a very hot product.

The new JVC DLP looks interesting. You're trading blacks for what looks like a pretty big increase in brightness on laser light engine which should maintain that high level for a very long time in addition to the auto tone mapping. Not DTM but still. It will be interesting to see where they end up with the blacks and calibrated lumens on that model. No doubt the sharpness will be there being a DLP.
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post #253 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 03:01 PM
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Does anyone know when these are going to be sold at other retailers besides Best Buy?
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post #254 of 300 Old 11-06-2019, 05:26 PM
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Does anyone know when these are going to be sold at other retailers besides Best Buy?


It’s a timed exclusive so, yes, eventually they will.

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post #255 of 300 Old 11-07-2019, 12:01 AM
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Does anyone know when these are going to be sold at other retailers besides Best Buy?
They should already be selling on Amazon, b&h and such, but due to the high demand it's out of stock
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post #256 of 300 Old 11-07-2019, 03:51 PM
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Delayed again, so much to do and not enough time...

I want to do some calibration readings (via colorimeter/spectro) for the comparison so that I can share more than just 'by eye' observations.

I am also working on setting up some scaling hardware vs sending everything 1080p (changing HDMI/HDCP) in order to accommodate the 45es thus negating some advantages of the HT3550 & HC3800 (resolution).

If they are going to be compared objectively then each unit should be given the chance to reach it's maximum potential.

- Jason
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HT = Epson HC3800 - BenQ HT3550 - Sony HW45ES @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Panasonic UB820
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post #257 of 300 Old 11-08-2019, 03:19 PM
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cool thanks for doing all that work DaGamePimp I found a refurbished 5040 ube and ordered that.since i have seen the 5040, I know it looks pretty darn good.going to compare the 45 with it when it arrives
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post #258 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 12:43 AM
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The US 3800 model should be the same spec as the EU 7100 model, right?
I'm asking because when looking at the product publication on the different amazons there is a noticeable difference in the contrast parameter.
At amazon.es it says "Epson EH-TW7100 - 4K Pro-UHD Projector (3000 lumens, 16: 9, Contrast Ratio 40,000: 1, Projection Ratio 1.32 - 2.15: 1)" (translated)
And at the amazon.co.uk it says "Epson EH-TW7100 data projector 3000 ANSI lumens 3LCD 4K (4096 x 2400) 3D Portable projector White EH-TW7100, 3000 ANSI lumens, 3LCD, 4K (4096 x 2400), 100000:1, 16:9, 1016-12700 mm"

I guess it's a kind of typo/copy-paste issue but how can I be sure before making the purchase? And can I be sure that both are the same as the US 3800 model?
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post #259 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by yossigab View Post
The US 3800 model should be the same spec as the EU 7100 model, right?
I'm asking because when looking at the product publication on the different amazons there is a noticeable difference in the contrast parameter.
At amazon.es it says "Epson EH-TW7100 - 4K Pro-UHD Projector (3000 lumens, 16: 9, Contrast Ratio 40,000: 1, Projection Ratio 1.32 - 2.15: 1)" (translated)
And at the amazon.co.uk it says "Epson EH-TW7100 data projector 3000 ANSI lumens 3LCD 4K (4096 x 2400) 3D Portable projector White EH-TW7100, 3000 ANSI lumens, 3LCD, 4K (4096 x 2400), 100000:1, 16:9, 1016-12700 mm"

I guess it's a kind of typo/copy-paste issue but how can I be sure before making the purchase? And can I be sure that both are the same as the US 3800 model?
That's the UK link:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Epson-EH-TW...SIN=B07XTX5YBD

And that's the ES link:
https://www.amazon.es/Epson-EH-TW710...SIN=B07XTX5YBD
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post #260 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 06:46 AM
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Look at the specification page on Epson's website, not amazon:
https://www.epson.eu/products/projec...specifications
https://epson.com/For-Home/Projector...R/p/V11H959020
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post #261 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 06:55 AM
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Thanks, I know that, this is why I mentioned it might be a typo/copy-paste issue.
So can I be sure that I will get the correct product even that the spec isn't match the correct one?
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post #262 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 07:02 AM
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Thanks, I know that, this is why I mentioned it might be a typo/copy-paste issue.
So can I be sure that I will get the correct product even that the spec isn't match the correct one?
Of course, 100%.
Why would you take amazon's claims over Epson's. Amazon just sells the product, it does not change the specifications.
There are no different variants of the TW7100 with vastly different contrast:
https://www.epson.eu/products/projectors/home-cinema

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post #263 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 07:13 AM
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Of course, 100%.
Why would you take amazon's claims over Epson's. Amazon just sells the product, it does not change the specifications.
There are no different variants of the TW7100 with vastly different contrast.
Thanks, I've already reported to Amazon (through the Amazon product page) that there is a mistake in the info...
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post #264 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 11:36 AM
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I have bought my Epson TW 7100 (HC 3800?) immediately after release in Germany, hoping to get an improvement to my older Epson TW 6700 (HC 3700?). Especiall in plaing 4k blu ray´s, I am owning some.

But I am a bit disappointed. Compared to my older Epson TFull HD W 6700 I have two main topics:

1. inaccurate, unsufficient colors, especially the Rec709, but also BT2020 color space (compared to my TW 6700). the Rec709 provided by my TW 71000 projector is not usable for Full HD without significant restrictions. I am using BT2020, it´s better.

2. a somewhat "blurry" acting eshifting function, which needs the more intensive support of image enhancers (Super Resolution, Detail Enhamcement) when upscaling Full HD content or when playing 4K content (e. g.Blu ray).

My private video shows that as a tendency but never replaces a live exam with your eyes. But you can easily check it yourself, if necessary or required. (use English subtitles).

I hope not all new TW 7100/HC 3800 will show these unfortunate "features".


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post #265 of 300 Old 11-10-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by yossigab View Post
The US 3800 model should be the same spec as the EU 7100 model, right?
I'm asking because when looking at the product publication on the different amazons there is a noticeable difference in the contrast parameter. ...
I addressed the contrast difference earlier in the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Epson's specifications show the 3800 with better contrast than the 3200, just as they showed the 3700 with better contrast than the 3100 and the 3500 with better contrast than the 3000. In real world testing the 3100 measured the same native black level as the 3700 and the 3000 measured the same native black level as the 3500. There's no reason to believe the 3800 and 3200 are any different in native black level.
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post #266 of 300 Old 11-11-2019, 04:33 AM
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Wow, thanks so much for that, I am still considering both of these to replace an old projector. I really appreciate all the work that went into making that detailed head to head with full English subtitles. Outstanding!


I understand all the observations and they are not very convincing for paying the extra for the TW7100.



May I ask what your subjective judgement is regarding contrast/black levels? It looks like it might be slightly better on the TW7100.


Thanks again!
Aaron



Quote:
Originally Posted by zeitgespenst View Post
I have bought my Epson TW 7100 (HC 3800?) immediately after release in Germany, hoping to get an improvement to my older Epson TW 6700 (HC 3700?). Especiall in plaing 4k blu ray´s, I am owning some.

But I am a bit disappointed. Compared to my older Epson TFull HD W 6700 I have two main topics:

1. inaccurate, unsufficient colors, especially the Rec709, but also BT2020 color space (compared to my TW 6700). the Rec709 provided by my TW 71000 projector is not usable for Full HD without significant restrictions. I am using BT2020, it´s better.

2. a somewhat "blurry" acting eshifting function, which needs the more intensive support of image enhancers (Super Resolution, Detail Enhamcement) when upscaling Full HD content or when playing 4K content (e. g.Blu ray).

My private video shows that as a tendency but never replaces a live exam with your eyes. But you can easily check it yourself, if necessary or required. (use English subtitles).

I hope not all new TW 7100/HC 3800 will show these unfortunate "features".


https://youtu.be/h7_Nq1k7nRw
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post #267 of 300 Old 11-11-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronman View Post
(...)
May I ask what your subjective judgement is regarding contrast/black levels? It looks like it might be slightly better on the TW7100.(...)

Hello Aaron,


thank you !

Regarding black level (respectively contrast) I see no significant improvements of my TW7100/HC 3800 compared to my TW6700/HC 3700.
I have also checked that with some black/white patterns and measured (with my simple Luxmeter) this property, but if there is a difference, it is very, very small, not relevant for me.
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post #268 of 300 Old 11-11-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeitgespenst View Post
Hello Aaron,


thank you !

Regarding black level (respectively contrast) I see no significant improvements of my TW7100/HC 3800 compared to my TW6700/HC 3700.
I have also checked that with some black/white patterns and measured (with my simple Luxmeter) this property, but if there is a difference, it is very, very small, not relevant for me.
Thanks again, that info is exactly what I needed. Looking for a replacement for my ancient Panasonic PT-L300U that is nearing the end of it's long and very useful lifespan. Was almost set on the EH-TW6700/HC 3700 but then they released the TW7100/HC3800 and I wasn't sure if it was worth the extra. I will be mostly watching 1080p in a normal living room with white walls and ceiling and from your precision comparison it certainly looks like the new model isn't worth it for my situation.
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post #269 of 300 Old 11-12-2019, 05:00 AM
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Have these budget fauxK 4k budget projectors surpassed the capability of my old Epson TW8200?
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post #270 of 300 Old 11-12-2019, 07:11 AM
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Hi, new user from the UK here.
I've just replaced an old Acer DLP with a Viewsonic PX747-4k that I got on a good deal for just a touch over £600(around $780) brand new. However after reading about these models I have become tempted to switch to the 3200, or TW7000 as it is known in the UK, as that is also a good price at £899(around $1150) at the moment direct from Epson. I've never tried a 3LCD projector only a few DLP ones. It looks as if the contrast ratio and colours may be better on the Epson but I'd lose some sharpness compared to the Viewsonic DLP. Would it be worth switching to the 3200/TW7000 or should I keep the viewsonic and save a few hundred pound? The screen I have is a 120" 1.2 Gain screen and I sit around 4m/13ft from the screen.
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