Help recommend components for me for a backyard setup?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 44 Old 09-17-2019, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Help recommend components for me for a backyard setup??

Hi, I have a shady spot in the backyard that can support a very large screen. We'd mostly likely be using it late afternoon into the evenings. Watching movies/streaming and maybe playing some video games.I don't have an unlimited budget.

If size (eg. 250"+) and outdoor use (so visible, lol) are my top priorities, what would you recommend for:

* projector
* screen
* audio

Thank you
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post #2 of 44 Old 09-17-2019, 08:38 PM
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Unless you live on a different planet then I do you are not going to watch anything with front projection until the sun goes down. How many drive-ins (am I dating myself?) show movies in the afternoon? A 250" screen most likely will require a large venue projector capable of 5000 lumens or more and only at night if there is no other source of ambient light like street lights.

EDIT: no matter how shady it is there will be still too much ambient light with the sun up.

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post #3 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
Unless you live on a different planet then I do you are not going to watch anything with front projection until the sun goes down. How many drive-ins (am I dating myself?) show movies in the afternoon? A 250" screen most likely will require a large venue projector capable of 5000 lumens or more and only at night if there is no other source of ambient light like street lights.

EDIT: no matter how shady it is there will be still too much ambient light with the sun up.
Well.... that sucks. Yes, it can get pretty shady, but yes as you point out, late afternoon still means its light out, so, yeah.

Follow-up question, then, are there projectors/setups that I can then easily move from an inside room (more specifically set up to be projector ready) to my backyard which I would then only be using basically when its dark out?

Thanks
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post #4 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 08:29 AM
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You don't mention budget, which obviously has a major impact on projector choices. But the most frequently recommended low-cost ($649 msrp) backyard movie projector that's lightweight for easy portability and bright enough for larger outdoor screens is the Epson Home Cinema 1060. It can be used inside as well.
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post #5 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
You don't mention budget, which obviously has a major impact on projector choices. But the most frequently recommended low-cost ($649 msrp) backyard movie projector that's lightweight for easy portability and bright enough for larger outdoor screens is the Epson Home Cinema 1060. It can be used inside as well.
Thanks. Would switching form inside to outside be difficult in terms of calibration or what not? Someone told me that could be a problem. I'm hoping for a close to plug and play as possible.

Do you share @rekbones thoughts on never really being able to see the screen even in solid shade in late afternoon?

How big of a screen can the Epson get?

I'd be willing to go up to $1k for the projector. Maybe slightly more if it is truly a solid plug and play choice that I can switch from outside to inside easily. Any other options stand out?
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post #6 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 01:17 PM
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This is the Epson 1060 outside.

Two pictures in light and dark setting


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post #7 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 02:24 PM
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Wouldn't using a black screen assist with the daylight issues?

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post #8 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zykoriej View Post
Thanks. Would switching form inside to outside be difficult in terms of calibration or what not? Someone told me that could be a problem. I'm hoping for a close to plug and play as possible.

Do you share @rekbones thoughts on never really being able to see the screen even in solid shade in late afternoon?

How big of a screen can the Epson get?

I'd be willing to go up to $1k for the projector. Maybe slightly more if it is truly a solid plug and play choice that I can switch from outside to inside easily. Any other options stand out?
You can push/use the Epson HC1060 on a 200" diagonal screen, but it needs to be dark. It will do a good job on 165" screen, but again, it still needs to be dark. The screen shown in the post by @BCRSS is a 144".

For a screen size of 250"+, you need 4000-6000 lumens. Epson makes one of the better units in that range with regards to picture quality/price ratio. However, a refurbished unit is ~$3000.00 and the list price is $6000.00 for that projector and it will still not give you much of a picture outdoors in daylight or even shade unless you reduce the picture size considerably.

Outdoors, you have sunlight reflecting off every surface, even in the shade. The screens surface is designed to reflect light and the sun is an excellent source of light compared to a tiny projector lamp.

If you want a big screen outdoors in daylight, buy your self a Jumbotron screen. It's why sports stadiums use them because projection doesn't work with daylight.
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post #9 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zykoriej View Post
Hi, I have a shady spot in the backyard that can support a very large screen. We'd mostly likely be using it late afternoon into the evenings. Watching movies/streaming and maybe playing some video games.I don't have an unlimited budget.

If size (eg. 250"+) and outdoor use (so visible, lol) are my top priorities, what would you recommend for:

* projector
* screen
* audio

Thank you

If you can wait till after dark, then I'd suggest looking at the Viewsonic PX-747-4k:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58093360

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58161414

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Vie...ulator-pro.htm

The amazing thing about it, is that in 4K HDR mode it retains usable colour even in it's brightest mode and thus you could use it on a 200-250in screen such as:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B079K9QN5C

although you could make a frame and cover it with screen material for less money:

https://smile.amazon.com/200-Inch-La.../dp/B01GC4GWU4
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post #10 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 03:25 PM
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This is my dilemma a ViewSonic 747 4K vs a 1080p Epson within $200 of each other for a 165inch outdoor screen. Is the 4K resolution worth it? I do have lots of 4K hdr Vudu movies. (Hope not to hijack thread, hope it helps OP)
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Originally Posted by JLS24 View Post
This is my dilemma a ViewSonic 747 4K vs a 1080p Epson within $200 of each other for a 165inch outdoor screen. Is the 4K resolution worth it? I do have lots of 4K hdr Vudu movies. (Hope not to hijack thread, hope it helps OP)

I have an Epson HC1040 (very similar to the HC1060) and I tested it directly against the Px747 and for 4K HDR content it's no contest that the PX-747 is superior in colour and resolution using both 4K BDs and 4K streaming via Netflix (on my Sony UBP-X700). The PX747 is at it's best when fed 4K via a competent source device.

The HC1040 isn't bad (when fed by the X700) but the PX747 is way sharper, has support for 4K HDR and has at least as good contrast.
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post #12 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JLS24 View Post
This is my dilemma a ViewSonic 747 4K vs a 1080p Epson within $200 of each other for a 165inch outdoor screen. Is the 4K resolution worth it? I do have lots of 4K hdr Vudu movies. (Hope not to hijack thread, hope it helps OP)
I'm sure the ViewSonic 747 is a nice projector. But, for my tastes it's a little under powered for a 165" screen. It's going to come in ~12-13 foot lamberts or below on a new bulb with a 1.0 gain, 165" screen. The SMPTE standard 196M is 12-22 foot lamberts and your local cinema calibrates to 16 fL as a reference making the ViewSonic 747 and a 165" screen marginal.

When you throw in some bulb aging and ambient light competition from Moon/Star light, it can be somewhat dim or washed out depending on conditions. And then you have the fact that everyone wants to start the movie at sunset and the lighting is still much less than optimum.

I think that a 144"-150" maximum, even with a 1.3 gain screen, is a better match for the ViewSonic.

4K is nice to have, but it's somewhat worthless if the image is not bright enough.
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post #13 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
I'm sure the ViewSonic 747 is a nice projector. But, for my tastes it's a little under powered for a 165" screen. It's going to come in ~12-13 foot lamberts or below on a new bulb with a 1.0 gain, 165" screen. The SMPTE standard 196M is 12-22 foot lamberts and your local cinema calibrates to 16 fL as a reference making the ViewSonic 747 and a 165" screen marginal.

When you throw in some bulb aging and ambient light competition from Moon/Star light, it can be somewhat dim or washed out depending on conditions. And then you have the fact that everyone wants to start the movie at sunset and the lighting is still much less than optimum.

I think that a 144"-150" maximum, even with a 1.3 gain screen, is a better match for the ViewSonic.

4K is nice to have, but it's somewhat worthless if the image is not bright enough.
The PX747 retains decent colour with neutral whites even in it's brightest modes as my test photos show. No, it won't win any awards in bright mode but it's very usable, and it still pumps out ~3100 lumens for ~24fl @ 250in (16x9, 1.4gain as per above screen suggestions).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLS24 View Post
This is my dilemma a ViewSonic 747 4K vs a 1080p Epson within $200 of each other for a 165inch outdoor screen. Is the 4K resolution worth it? I do have lots of 4K hdr Vudu movies. (Hope not to hijack thread, hope it helps OP)
I'm sure the ViewSonic 747 is a nice projector. But, for my tastes it's a little under powered for a 165" screen. It's going to come in ~12-13 foot lamberts or below on a new bulb with a 1.0 gain, 165" screen. The SMPTE standard 196M is 12-22 foot lamberts and your local cinema calibrates to 16 fL as a reference making the ViewSonic 747 and a 165" screen marginal.

When you throw in some bulb aging and ambient light competition from Moon/Star light, it can be somewhat dim or washed out depending on conditions. And then you have the fact that everyone wants to start the movie at sunset and the lighting is still much less than optimum.

I think that a 144"-150" maximum, even with a 1.3 gain screen, is a better match for the ViewSonic.

4K is nice to have, but it's somewhat worthless if the image is not bright enough.
Ok this is where my newbism comes into play haha..... so take the benq tk800 Which could be in the same price range....it says for 165inch it has 22fl . So would that be better for outside use? And why is it 22 when the 747 has higher lumens but it’s only 13? Sorry if it’s a dumb question.
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post #15 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JLS24 View Post
Ok this is where my newbism comes into play haha..... so take the benq tk800 Which could be in the same price range....it says for 165inch it has 22fl . So would that be better for outside use? And why is it 22 when the 747 has higher lumens but it’s only 13? Sorry if it’s a dumb question.
The use of calibrated (instrumented setup for best quality indoor use) lumens versus out of the box lumens tends to skew things. My testing shows that the PX747 is quite usable even in bright mode (~3100 lumens), but no, the colour is not going to win awards. But then, how many of us went to see a drive in movie and expected the absolute best colour?

However, at 165in you can use the best (movie mode) colour mode and expect better colour, brightness and contrast than an HC1060.

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post #16 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JLS24 View Post
Ok this is where my newbism comes into play haha..... so take the benq tk800 Which could be in the same price range....it says for 165inch it has 22fl . So would that be better for outside use? And why is it 22 when the 747 has higher lumens but it’s only 13? Sorry if it’s a dumb question.
I prefer the image a DLP projector puts out. I use a rather expensive Digital Projection brand DLP projector in our indoor theater. I've yet to see a DLP projector that can produce the contrast and black levels of Sony LCOS or JVC DLA unit. The other issue is they always base lumen output on white light. Problem is you typically project color and DLP units come in ~30% lower in lumens in real life.

If you're planning on using the unit outdoors on a 165" screen, I would suggest looking at the Epson HC3700 with 1080 resolution or the new HC3800 which has the 4k enhancement. Both will also produce very nice contrast/black levels and ample color lumens for the 165" screen.


EDIT: With regards to the Benq - In my experience, having something around 18-22 fL is very nice for a backyard theater in the dark. More is better. Again, what it says and what it will produce can be different. The fL calculation simply uses the number you plug in. If the Benq TK800 produces sufficient color calibrated lumens to produce 22 fL on a 165" screen, then not bad. But my experience with DLP, it's not going to do that.

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post #17 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The PX747 retains decent colour with neutral whites even in it's brightest modes as my test photos show. No, it won't win any awards in bright mode but it's very usable, and it still pumps out ~3100 lumens for ~24fl @ 250in (16x9, 1.4gain as per above screen suggestions).
The key words being a 1.4 gain screen. An expensive piece of kit in 250" for outdoor use.


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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The use of calibrated (instrumented setup for best quality indoor use) lumens versus out of the box lumens tends to skew things. My testing shows that the PX747 is quite usable even in bright mode (~3100 lumens), but no, the colour is not going to win awards. But then, how many of us went to see a drive in movie and expected the absolute best colour?
It's the 21st Century, why limit or lower your expectations for outdoor use when it's not really necessary?

272" scope 1.1 gain screen with an Epson G7500 4k in a backyard.

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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
The key words being a 1.4 gain screen. An expensive piece of kit in 250" for outdoor use.




It's the 21st Century, why limit or lower your expectations for outdoor use when it's not really necessary?

272" scope 1.1 gain screen with an Epson G7500 4k in a backyard.

https://www.carlofet.com/wp-content/...313748-e-1.jpg
It would really speed things up if you would read my posts. 250in 1.4gain screen:

https://smile.amazon.com/200-Inch-La.../dp/B01GC51XLG

so less than $125.



Why are we talking about 4 grand projectors, when the OP has a $1000 limit? I posted example images from the PX747 on a 145in screen in the different colour modes in the posts above:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58093360

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58161414

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post #19 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 05:46 PM
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It would really speed things up if you would read my posts. 250in 1.4gain screen:

https://smile.amazon.com/200-Inch-La.../dp/B01GC51XLG

so less than $125.
If you really believe you're getting a 200" 1.4 gain screen of any quality for less than $100, I got a bridge I'd like to sell you...


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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Why are we talking about 4 grand projectors, when the OP has a $1000 limit? I posted example images from the PX747 on a 145in screen in the different colour modes in the posts above:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58093360

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58161414

It's a relative position. The OP said he'd like a 250"+ screen too!

I also said that I would limit screen size to 144"-150" for a ViewSonic 747 and would not recommend a 165" or 200" or 250"+.

I posted a real world example of a 250"+ screen and a projector that will do the job. You've a problem with that?

You're selling/pushing a projector that you admit will be color compromised at 200"-250" and justify it by saying "But then, how many of us went to see a drive in movie and expected the absolute best colour?" I'm simply saying that you don't have to make that kind of compromise just because it's outside.

What the OP wanted to do can be done. Yep, it maybe costs more than he wants to spend. But now he knows.

The other option is to down size and maintain a similar level of picture quality with regards to his budget.

And a third option I guess is to compromise picture quality as you suggest, because it's outside, and use a screen size beyond a given projectors capability and buy a ViewSonic 747 regardless. That make you happy?
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
It would really speed things up if you would read my posts. 250in 1.4gain screen:

https://smile.amazon.com/200-Inch-La.../dp/B01GC51XLG

so less than $125.
If you really believe you're getting a 200" 1.4 gain screen of any quality for less than $100, I got a bridge I'd like to sell you... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Why are we talking about 4 grand projectors, when the OP has a $1000 limit? I posted example images from the PX747 on a 145in screen in the different colour modes in the posts above:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58093360

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l#post58161414

It's a relative position. The OP said he'd like a 250"+ screen too!

I also said that I would limit screen size to 144"-150" for a ViewSonic 747 and would not recommend a 165" or 200" or 250"+.

I posted a real world example of a 250"+ screen and a projector that will do the job. You've a problem with that?

You're selling/pushing a projector that you admit will be color compromised at 200"-250" and justify it by saying "But then, how many of us went to see a drive in movie and expected the absolute best colour?" I'm simply saying that you don't have to make that kind of compromise just because it's outside.

What the OP wanted to do can be done. Yep, it maybe costs more than he wants to spend. But now he knows.

The other option is to down size and maintain a similar level of picture quality with regards to his budget.

And a third option I guess is to compromise picture quality as you suggest, because it's outside, and use a screen size beyond a given projectors capability and buy a ViewSonic 747 regardless. That make you happy? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Do you really think that someone wanting a 250in image with a low cost pj isnt expecting to make some compromises? I have posted example images of what can be expected from a px-747 and based upon that a 200-250in image is possible with reasonable colour, imho. Stating that it is flat out not possible is wrong, again imho.

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post #21 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 06:33 PM
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@zykoriej , lots of people with no video projection experience thought they might use a projector outside in shade during daylight but none has posted on this forum that it ended up working for them. But feel free to try it yourself once you get a projector and screen. Your tolerance for a washed out image will determine how soon after sunset you can enjoy watching movies in the backyard. Similarly your tolerance for image dimness will determine how big a screen you can use as the image will get increasingly dimmer as screen size goes up. Some prefer bigger to brighter and some prefer the opposite. Your own eyes will be the best judge of what's right for you.
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post #22 of 44 Old 09-18-2019, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Do you really think that someone wanting a 250in image with a low cost pj isnt expecting to make some compromises? I have posted example images of what can be expected from a px-747 and based upon that a 200-250in image is possible with reasonable colour, imho. Stating that it is flat out not possible is wrong, again imho.

And that's where you seem to be dug in... I think someone wanting a 250"+ image with a low cost projector and the ability to see a watchable image in daylight with the screen set up in the shade has absolutely no experience with front projection. And that's OK in my book, you have to start somewhere.

But telling that same person that a ~3000 lumen DLP projector, with lumen specifications based on white light not color, is going to to light up a 250"+ screen based on personal experience with a 143" painted surface is a disservice. You're comparing a screen with ~67% more area to light up.

I did not say it was impossible or not possible or "...flat out not possible...". I said that it was a compromise with regards to picture quality and color on a screen that size. You will get an image. It will not be very bright, but you will get an image and to maximize the lumen output, color will also be a compromise. If you're happy with it will be a mater of personal taste. A 4K projector has real benefits to offer on a screen that size. But if the image brightness and color are compromised by trying to project a large image with low fL values, IMO, 4K is of little value. You sure as heck are not going to see anything close to an HDR image that you might see at 143".

The ViewSonic 747 is a nice unit and I like DLP projectors. I just think it's not the best choice for a 200"-250" image.

With the recent release of the new Epson HC3800 the HC3700 is readily available for approximately $1000. The HC3700 has pretty good color out of the box, a very honest 3000+ color lumens, a good quality lens with ample horizontal/vertical lens shift, and contrast that is equal to or better than the ViewSonic. It should give you around 15 fL on a 250" 1.1 gain screen with a new lamp with good color which is something the ViewSonic is not going to do on that screen size IMO. The HC3700 on a 200" screen is going to be a hands down favorite and better image over the ViewSonic for most.
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And that's where you seem to be dug in... I think someone wanting a 250"+ image with a low cost projector and the ability to see a watchable image in daylight with the screen set up in the shade has absolutely no experience with front projection. And that's OK in my book, you have to start somewhere.

But telling that same person that a ~3000 lumen DLP projector, with lumen specifications based on white light not color, is going to to light up a 250"+ screen based on personal experience with a 143" painted surface is a disservice. You're comparing a screen with ~67% more area to light up.

I did not say it was impossible or not possible or "...flat out not possible...". I said that it was a compromise with regards to picture quality and color on a screen that size. You will get an image. It will not be very bright, but you will get an image and to maximize the lumen output, color will also be a compromise. If you're happy with it will be a mater of personal taste. A 4K projector has real benefits to offer on a screen that size. But if the image brightness and color are compromised by trying to project a large image with low fL values, IMO, 4K is of little value. You sure as heck are not going to see anything close to an HDR image that you might see at 143".

The ViewSonic 747 is a nice unit and I like DLP projectors. I just think it's not the best choice for a 200"-250" image.

With the recent release of the new Epson HC3800 the HC3700 is readily available for approximately $1000. The HC3700 has pretty good color out of the box, a very honest 3000+ color lumens, a good quality lens with ample horizontal/vertical lens shift, and contrast that is equal to or better than the ViewSonic. It should give you around 15 fL on a 250" 1.1 gain screen with a new lamp with good color which is something the ViewSonic is not going to do on that screen size IMO. The HC3700 on a 200" screen is going to be a hands down favorite and better image over the ViewSonic for most.
I stated specifically, that 200-250in was possible, after dark. I never stated 250in plus. I have a 145in ~.6 gain grey screen and this was used for the sample images. The PX747 is very bright on this screen and when fed 4K HDR it still has reasonable colour even in bright mode as my images show and bright measures in at ~3100 lumens as per various online reviews. It is precisely when showing such large images that true 4K HDR is going have a big edge over 1080p 3LCD in terms of sharpness and the PX747 supports HDR while only the much more expensive HC3800 supports HDR. The Tk800M is similar to the Px747 while the TK850, and Optoma UHD51ALV/52ALV are direct competitors to the HC3800.
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post #24 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your comments. A lot to digest.

I am definitely a newbie.

The way my budget goes up, is if it is truly relatively easy to transport from outside to inside. I have an inside room where this will be good as well. It is also not a dedicated home theater room... but it's inside, with blinds so can get much darker during the day. That way I can justify a somewhat higher budget.

I'll work my way through the thread. Thanks!
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post #25 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 08:03 AM
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@zykoriej , in your search for the best projector for yourself just understand up front that whatever projector you end up with is going to be a compromise. Each projector model has a different balance of pros and cons. What you need to focus on is finding the one with the best balance of pros that are most important to you and the cons you can most easily tolerate. In your search you will find that there are enthusiastic fans of many different projectors on this forum who can sometimes argue passionately that what works for them is the best choice for everyone else.

Sometimes it helps to look for more objective reviews from professional reviewers who provide factual data and technical information about all the pros and cons. For example, two projectors being discussed here -- the Epson Home Cinema 1060 and ViewSonic PX747 -- were both reviewed by projectorcentral.com. I think that reading the two reviews linked below will give you a better understanding of these two different types of projectors:

projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home-Cinema-1060-review.htm

projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm
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post #26 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@zykoriej , in your search for the best projector for yourself just understand up front that whatever projector you end up with is going to be a compromise. Each projector model has a different balance of pros and cons. What you need to focus on is finding the one with the best balance of pros that are most important to you and the cons you can most easily tolerate. In your search you will find that there are enthusiastic fans of many different projectors on this forum who can sometimes argue passionately that what works for them is the best choice for everyone else.

Sometimes it helps to look for more objective reviews from professional reviewers who provide factual data and technical information about all the pros and cons. For example, two projectors being discussed here -- the Epson Home Cinema 1060 and ViewSonic PX747 -- were both reviewed by projectorcentral.com. I think that reading the two reviews linked below will give you a better understanding of these two different types of projectors:

projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home-Cinema-1060-review.htm

projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm
Yes, definitely, thank you very much.

I am long past the age of worrying or caring about not only trying to have "the best", but even having to have the "best bang for the buck". Instead, I just focus on what's most important to me. Our main tv is an 80 inch Vizio that's almost 4 years old now. No 4k, no 3d (that was big at the time), nothing super fancy. It does HD, it's 80 inches, and I got a super amazing deal on it for black friday almost 4 years ago.

Those are "generally" still my priorities. Size, clear enough, price well. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the bells and whistles, just not my priority.

Many thanks!
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post #27 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@zykoriej , in your search for the best projector for yourself just understand up front that whatever projector you end up with is going to be a compromise. Each projector model has a different balance of pros and cons. What you need to focus on is finding the one with the best balance of pros that are most important to you and the cons you can most easily tolerate. In your search you will find that there are enthusiastic fans of many different projectors on this forum who can sometimes argue passionately that what works for them is the best choice for everyone else.

Sometimes it helps to look for more objective reviews from professional reviewers who provide factual data and technical information about all the pros and cons. For example, two projectors being discussed here -- the Epson Home Cinema 1060 and ViewSonic PX747 -- were both reviewed by projectorcentral.com. I think that reading the two reviews linked below will give you a better understanding of these two different types of projectors:

projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home-Cinema-1060-review.htm

projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm

Thanks for posting the ViewSonic PX747 review Dave.

It's interesting as Projector Central verifies 3100 ANSI or white light lumens in its Bright Mode for the PX747. They also state that the lumens drop to 26% of that value when the projector is showing color or a movie and that "The overwhelming amount of white light in the mix causes color subject matter to appear quite dull and low in saturation." 3100 x 26% = 806 lumens.

Projector Central also states that the PX747, in Movie Mode, puts out 1600 ANSI or white lumens and 57% of that value for color lumens for ~900 lumens.

If I assume the Bright Mode and use the 900 lumens from the Movie Mode (being generous), that would equate to 5.3fL on a 250" 1.1 gain screen or ~33% of the SMPTE 196M target. Again, far too dark in my opinion.

Switching to a 165" 1.1 gain screen, the numbers come in at 12.3fL. While that number is very watchable and much more so than the 5.3fL value, it's still on the lower edge of the SMPTE 196M target. And the projector is still straining with color output.

Using a 144" 1.1 gain screen, with 900 lumens, the numbers come in at 16fL which also happens to be the SMPTE 196M target value.

SMPTE 196M target = 16fL open gate/white light fL = (Illuminance in Lumens / Screen Area in Ft2) * Screen Gain

Using the Epson HC1060, based on Projector Central's 2533 color lumen measurement, a 250" 1.1 gain screen will produce 15fL. I won't bother to post the smaller screen values as the numbers clearly go above the SMPTE 196M target. Color values are good based on the same review with the weakness being black levels.

I also own the HC1060 and have used it on a 200" 1.1 screen with good results but competition from Moon and Starlight can sometimes leave you wishing for a little more horsepower. A 165" 1.1 gain screen with the HC1060 (or any projector putting out 2500 color lumens) is maybe the sweet spot between size and low cost projector. If you drop down to a 144" screen on the HC1060, it's like watching a large LCD TV outdoors. I'm sure the ViewSonic PX747 will be similar or better when considering DLP technology attributes on the same 144" 1.1 gain screen.

My point to the OP was simply that using a screen of 250"+ can be a challenge for a low cost projector. Expecting to use most any projector outdoors with the sun up, even in the shade, is not realistic. The SMPTE 196M target is a value assumption based on a dark room. Using a projector outside at night requires the projector/screen combination to overcome Moon and Starlight, as well as street lights, and lights from your own or neighbors house if applicable, making a target value of 20fL or more a very reasonable goal.

On the other hand, if you just want to throw something together without regards to brightness, picture quality, etc., that's OK too!
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post #28 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 12:06 PM
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Our perception of colour doesn't work linearly. Colour can be considerably desaturated yet the image will still look OK, as my test photos show. This is especially true with an HDR source. This is a key sentence in the Projector Central review:

"Bright mode is distinctively different on these two models. While Bright mode on the PX727 has a rather noticeable greenish cyan tint, the PX747 delivers a brilliant white 3100 lumens with very little obvious color bias."

And we can see this in these Youtube video reviews:




and colour saturation (via the menu Color setting) can be increased in Bright mode, which I show in my test photos. Again, I tested the PX747 thoroughly and directly compared it to my HC1040 and the PX747 was far superior when showing HDR material IMHO.

This review shows some more examples of the differences between Bright, Standard and Movie mode:


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post #29 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 01:19 PM
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...
Again, I tested the PX747 thoroughly and directly compared it to my HC1040 and the PX747 was far superior when showing HDR material IMHO. ...
Kind of an apples and oranges comparison in that the HC1040 is not an HDR display and does not have the ability receive HDR metadata (MaxCll/MaxFall) let alone do anything with it...

The best that could happen is your source would recognize that during EDID exchange and send the HC1040 SDR content.

The best projectors with regard to HDR are displaying pure white at ~30fL. The best projectors are also using some form of tone mapping.

The PX747 simply is not going to put out that kind of light on a 165"-250" screen. 3100-3500 ANSI lumens on a 250' screen maybe really good if you're watching a movie about a polar bear in a snow storm. But with the numbers reported on Projector Central's review, you're going to be lucky to get 4-5fL with a normal move on a 250" screen, and especially so if there is some age on the lamp. I would not expect to enjoy the benefits of an HDR display/source at 4-5fL.

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post #30 of 44 Old 09-19-2019, 02:28 PM
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I might be the pragmatic flip-side of this argument, but I'd personally say don't throw a whole lot of money at an outdoor setup that's likely to be used maybe 5-10 times a year. For the kids in the back yard I use a $15 120" rolled-vinyl screen that I stapled to a 1x1 pine frame (thrown together from scrap) hung on the side of the house, a $180 Anker Prizm 2 projector, Goodwill Polk R15s powered by a $20 Lepai amp, and an old Roku we lost the remote for (controlled by the phone app). If I add/change anything about this setup, it will probably be the source device (maybe a spare Nexus player since it supports Bluetooth audio) and one of those obnoxious Bluetooth boomboxes for louder (even if not necessarily better) sound.

Once you're outside with camp chairs and snacks/popcorn/candy it's way more about being there and enjoying something casually together than ultimate picture/sound quality. Before selling my Epson 3000 on to my brother, it was definitely a much superior outdoor projector... brighter, sharper, better contrast... but the enjoyment hasn't been diminished at all after its replacement with 1/10th the lumens and contrast (and 1/4 the size/weight). I'd say keep it simple and enjoy it for what it is... let your indoor theater be the rabbit hole you obsess about fine-tuning to perfection.
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