HDR Tone Mapping - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 13 Old 11-04-2019, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR Tone Mapping

Looking at the sub-$2000 market, which brand currently is best at HDR tone mapping? I realize some may improve over time (as shown by the recent JVC firmware update), but looking at things where they stand now.
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post #2 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreationz View Post
Looking at the sub-$2000 market, which brand currently is best at HDR tone mapping? I realize some may improve over time (as shown by the recent JVC firmware update), but looking at things where they stand now.
It's said that the Benq's HDR-PRO Technology is the best on the HT3550 and HT5550, although not sure how it compares to JVC's algorithm.
It's not clear if this technology can be applied to other Benq projectors via an update, or it's limited to the models capable of covering WCG. Maybe @sage11x has more insight.

This question could be asked of other models, for instance is the tone mapper the same on the Epson HC3800 and HC4010, with the 3800 covering only a small amount of the WCG?
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post #3 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 03:42 PM
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Probably the new 4K LED LG HU70LA, it has dynamic tone mapping like the newly updated 4K JVC projectors and its sibling the LG HU85LA. It tonemaps on a frame by frame basis.

ProjectorCentral's review of the JVC N7 stated the JVC and LG HU85LA had the best tonemapping of any HDR projector they reviewed.

Hopefully DTM comes to more HDR projectors next year. Having to change settings for each source/movie to enjoy HDR seems mad annoying.

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post #4 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 04:16 PM
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I think any discussion of HDR tone mapping should also include playback devices such as the Panasonic UB-820. There was quite a bit of discussion in the Epson 5050/6050 thread about the combination of the UB-820 paired with the 5050/6050 had much better tone mapping than the projector alone. Similarly, MadVR on a PC is another option, though I'm much less familiar with this option and the costs or hassles involved.


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post #5 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
I think any discussion of HDR tone mapping should also include playback devices such as the Panasonic UB-820. There was quite a bit of discussion in the Epson 5050/6050 thread about the combination of the UB-820 paired with the 5050/6050 had much better tone mapping than the projector alone. Similarly, MadVR on a PC is another option, though I'm much less familiar with this option and the costs or hassles involved.


Mike


The UB820 effectively replaces the projector’s tone mapping by performing it’s own HDR to SDR conversion and allowing the projector to simply display the content as SDR. If anyone is saying the 820 is a better solution than the projector’s built in tone mapping I would take that as an indication that the projector’s tone mapping isn’t very good. I had heard the 5050/6050 was a big step up from the 5040/6040 (which, honestly, didn’t do a very good job with HDR— witness the pages and pages of custom HDR settings here on this forum aimed at fixing it). I did follow secrets review and they pointed out that HDR, out-of-the-box at least, could use a little help. Calibration is probably never a bad idea and certainly a lot more justifiable on a $3000 projector.
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post #6 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
MadVR on a PC is another option, though I'm much less familiar with this option and the costs or hassles involved.

Mike
I have been an avid user of madVR for ages,and to be honest, nothing comes even closer to madVR DTM at the moment. madVR puts the projector/player DTM to shame, IMO.)
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post #7 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 05:15 PM
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HDR Tone Mapping

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
It's said that the Benq's HDR-PRO Technology is the best on the HT3550 and HT5550, although not sure how it compares to JVC's algorithm.
It's not clear if this technology can be applied to other Benq projectors via an update, or it's limited to the models capable of covering WCG. Maybe @sage11x has more insight.

This question could be asked of other models, for instance is the tone mapper the same on the Epson HC3800 and HC4010, with the 3800 covering only a small amount of the WCG?


BenQ’s HDR pro is a really interesting solution. Talking strictly technically: projectors aren’t really capable of HDR. The general practice so far with HDR on projectors has been to essentially convert it to something resembling SDR while retaining as much detail as you can. As I mentioned above in my comment about the UB820– at the end of the day you have an HDR image that doesn’t look all that different from an SDR image is the goal.

BenQ’s solution is different. It attempts to retain some of that HDR ‘effect’ by controlling saturation and contrast. You might even call it a simulation of HDR that takes into account the limitations of your typical projector. Critics will point out that this isn’t maybe the most accurate way to display HDR content but I would argue that there really isn’t an accurate way to do HDR on a projector without it looking dull. That (along with clipping) was one of the big problems with HDR on those earlier models. HDR on the BenQ looks, for lack of a better phrase, ‘more HDR’ and it does a fantastic job at sort of hiding some of DLP’s limitations when it comes to black levels and contrast compared to pricier options.

It’s certainly gone over well. Critics from Chris Eberle to Art Feierman have praised the BenQ projectors for their HDR image quality even when placed against competition that handily outgun them in terms of native contrast and black level.

JVC’s solution is a whole other thing. From how I understand it, JVC is essentially attempting to add back in the tone and gamut mapping metadata that HDR10 omits on the playback side— I would actually go as far as to say they are trying to ‘fix’ HDR10 by making it behave more like HDR10 plus or dolby vision by having scene by scene levels of control over the image. No idea how well it works...
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post #8 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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From comparisons I've seen online since I'm looking at BenQ vs Optima primarily, the Optima has better saturation, but the BenQ has more "pop".
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post #9 of 13 Old 11-06-2019, 07:06 PM
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Art regarding LG dynamic done mapping.

"I like the LG’s HDR performance. The projector’s got enough muscle to really pop, if you will fully darken your room. It is very HDR like, a touch dark in the mid-brightness ranges so the really bright areas jump out. (aka HDR). The HU85LA in that regard is very much NOT like the last projector I reviewed – the BenQ HT3550. The BenQ was bright in the those mid areas creating an HDR picture that looked more SDR. (That was really my biggest complaint.)"

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post #10 of 13 Old 11-07-2019, 09:46 AM
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This is an interesting article on dynamic tone mapping:

http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/

Use google translate for your language of choice.
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post #11 of 13 Old 11-07-2019, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
This is an interesting article on dynamic tone mapping:

http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/

Use google translate for your language of choice.
Nice read. Too bad they won't release a DTM only box, I believe the Envy will be beyond most people's price range.

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post #12 of 13 Old 11-08-2019, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreationz View Post
Looking at the sub-$2000 market, which brand currently is best at HDR tone mapping? I realize some may improve over time (as shown by the recent JVC firmware update), but looking at things where they stand now.

Just bought a LG HU70LA replace my HT3550/W2700, LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping works very very good!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58791386

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post #13 of 13 Old 11-08-2019, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Just bought a LG HU70LA replace my HT3550/W2700, LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping works very very good!



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58791386


I believe that’s based on the same system they developed for their OLEDs.

Ironically, all OLEDs fall short of 1000 nits which is why they require tone mapping. I say ironically because OLED is probably the best example I’ve seen of a consumer display handling HDR. Maybe we’ll get lucky and Panasonic will bring that new dual panel LCD to the consumer market for something less than the 30K they are supposedly selling the pro model for.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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