Best projector for room w/white walls - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 11-19-2019, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Best projector for room w/white walls

Setup is room with white walls (brown parquet) and black out blinds. No lights on viewing. The room cannot be treated, not even with curtains.
Current PJ is Benq W2000(HT3050) and a Cinegrey 3D screen, will try paint mixes of Silver Fire and others.

According to this article (link) a projector with more than 1000-2000:1 contrast will not make a difference in such a setup, contrast wise.
The Benq has ~1500:1.

The Cinegrey 3D does a better job with black levels than a white screen, but worse than a grey (matte) screen.
With the paint mixes there will probably be an improvement (with black levels).

In this video with 3 Epson models with the CR:
MovieMate 85HD: 3000:1
HC8350: 50.000:1
HC8700UB: 200,000:1




There is a difference between the 8700UB and HC8350, the room having colored walls.
Currently the HC3800 with 100,000:1 CR was measured at 2000-2400:1.
So would the 8700UB be 4000-5000:1?


How much of projector with higher contrast ratio take advantage of a screen with the aforementioned paint mixes in the current setup?
The Projection Dream article does not mention the make of the screen, but I assume it's a 1.0 gain.

A PJ with a CR of 5000:1 like the Sony HW45, or a TW9400 (6050UB), how much will CR will they loose?
What is the best in this scenario?
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post #2 of 16 Old 11-19-2019, 08:40 PM
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Too many variables to give exact numbers so you will have to go with generalities. Just follow the science and avoid being misguided by marketing speak. From all the advice you have recently been giving to others I thought you would have had this all nailed.
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Too many variables to give exact numbers so you will have to go with generalities. Just follow the science and avoid being misguided by marketing speak. From all the advice you have recently been giving to others I thought you would have had this all nailed.
I was wondering if there are precise measurements.
A grey/ALR/paint mix does improve black levels, but by how much? Enough to get a higher CR PJ?

How would one measure contrast with different screens? A luxmeter and a checker pattern?
I don't want to get a projector with better contrast only to find out it's CR is washed still.
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post #4 of 16 Old 11-19-2019, 09:19 PM
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The projector, screen and room environment work together as a system. The key factor in room environment is the amount of ambient light and cross reflections from lighter colored room surfaces striking the screen. Generally speaking a projector with better contrast will have its greatest advantage over a projector with worse contrast in an all black room with no ambient light. As ambient light and cross reflections from lighter room surfaces increase that contrast advantage will slowly be eroded. At some point the difference in contrast between the two may barely be noticeable. But by the time you reach that image washout point you may no longer find the image to be very enjoyable. You would need specific measurements for exactly how much ambient and cross reflected light will be hitting your screen in order to calculate a specific measurement for how much contrast advantage would be lost. If you can't provide specific measured numbers on the projector, screen and room environment you can't calculate specific performance numbers for the system and will only be able to consider generalities.
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post #5 of 16 Old 11-19-2019, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
If you can't provide specific measured numbers on the projector, screen and room environment you can't calculate specific performance numbers for the system and will only be able to consider generalities.
How would the measurements be calculated for the room environment? Extracted from measurements from the screen and projector?
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post #6 of 16 Old 11-19-2019, 11:00 PM
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@noob00224 if I were you I would actually post this question on either the ‘screens’ or ‘diy screens’ section as I reckon you’ll get more answers to this.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
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post #7 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
@noob00224 if I were you I would actually post this question on either the ‘screens’ or ‘diy screens’ section as I reckon you’ll get more answers to this.
One question is how would a paint mix help with CR in this kind of environment.

Another one is what kind of projector would be able to take the most advantage, and not be overkill.


Somewhat related, with a black background on the Cinegrey 3D there is a IPS glow like, brighter in the center. Initially I thought it was due to the ALR properties of the screen. But then I took out the white screen and covered half the Cinegrey, and then covered it entirely. It's a large uncut piece so there is visible screen outside the projected image.

The glow was present as well, uniformly. It's similar in brightness to the light border on DMD chips, a dark milky grey. The projected rectangle is a few shades lighter than the screen surface outside the rectangle. Tried with lamp in SmartEco and Eco.

I can see how ambient light would affect the part of the screen outside the rectangle, but that is a different issue.
If the projected image had 1 or 5% APL (credits?) the brighter parts of the image might affect the dark parts, but this was with a 100% black background.

What PJ would lower the black floor in this case?
I remember reading posts that the TW9400 does not project an 100% dark image, while projecting a black picture. In a room with white walls the reflections might raise the black floor enough to match the TW9400's capability, if what is said above is true. Never having seen a PJ with good blacks I don't know.

@Luminated67 with the lights off and projecting a black image is the rectangle visible on the TW9400?
When you were using the HW45 did it have a visible rectangle when sending a black picture (if this was ever done)?

Last edited by noob00224; 11-20-2019 at 01:28 AM.
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post #8 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 02:03 AM
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^ I will try the Epson tonight when I get home from work but I honestly never did it will the Sony and it would require a bit of work to hook up and try this.

Is it possible to either video or take a photo of what you are seeing so I know what I have to look for.
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post #9 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
^ I will try the Epson tonight when I get home from work but I honestly never did it will the Sony and it would require a bit of work to hook up and try this.

Is it possible to either video or take a photo of what you are seeing so I know what I have to look for.
Tried to take pictures a while back, but they came out too dark. In the link below, the first two are with a black image projected. The left side is the white screen, the right is the ALR, as in the other shots. The hotspot can be seen (in the first two) very faintly in the right center, but the glow is also visible on the left side. It's that kind of glow, but brighter in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58659830


I remembered the conversation with @bdht , it's the 0 IRE fL value.

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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Talking about what measured light output comes from the projector at 0ire. The imagers native contrast and the path light takes through the projector, as well as dynamic lamps and irises. Say with your ht2050, a black image looks more light black and measures .3fl, whereas a jvc with a dynamic iris black is pretty much black and measures .0003fl.
Found some info on 0 IRE on the 5040UB, but not on the 5050UB/TW9400/HW45.
I assume the 5050UB and variants are similar to this?:
https://www.tvspecialists.com/jvc-lx...-optoma-uhd65/

What would be a good value?

LE: the PJ is not calibrated, would that help with the black floor?
Would a 3D LUT for madvr do the same thing?

Last edited by noob00224; 11-20-2019 at 02:31 AM.
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post #10 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Found some info on 0 IRE on the 5040UB, but not on the 5050UB/TW9400/HW45.
I assume the 5050UB and variants are similar to this?:
https://www.tvspecialists.com/jvc-lx...-optoma-uhd65/

What would be a good value?

LE: the PJ is not calibrated, would that help with the black floor?
Would a 3D LUT for madvr do the same thing?
The brightness setting in the projector, the lamp mode, and iris/dimming settings affect the black level/0ire, but that's it, no other calibration will help. A dark screen will lower your black level but contrast stays the same. In a situation where you can't treat the room at all, you want the darkest material possible to absorb cross reflections.

I'll see if I can break down projector contrast a bit.

While my room is fairly treated and contrast is fairly unaffected by cross reflections, my typical viewing conditions have increased ambient light in the room, however, with no direct light hitting the screen. Black levels increase from lights off, but low adl(1-2%) content has visibly higher contrast/lower black levels on a JVC RS45(native no dynamic iris) and high ADL(6-10%) content has higher contrast/lower black levels on a W1070(dynamic lamp). On the jvc black levels really light up with brighter scenes, not full white just any brighter scene and contrast looks inferior to the w1070, whereas the w1070 black levels change very little as adl changes.

I think for the BenQ with smarteco, the dynamic contrast increases a bit, say from 1.5k native to 4-5k. That combined with a dark grey screen and the correct light output(i had to use a 1stop nd filter to get light right on my smaller screen) resulted in pretty decent overall contrast seemingly maintaining that 3-5k up through 10% adl. The contrast/black level is very comparable to various 4-6k contrast va tvs I have.

My JVC RS45 has a very good black level without an iris, but even in low lamp with the iris closed down you can still see a glow at 0ire, which is where the iris would help get you closer to 0fl at 0ire.
JVC X500(native): https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...ize=1024%2C311
JVC X500(iris closed measurements): https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...ize=1024%2C375
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/

Also, the irises/dynamic lamps for lcd/lcos projectors seem to only effect on/off and 1-2% adl, whereas dynamic systems on dlp are effective further up the range.
JVC NX9(native and dynamic): https://www.soundandvision.com/image...vcpjcharts.jpg
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

Sim2 HDR Duo(native and dynamic):
https://photos.smugmug.com/SIM2-HDR-...%20TABLE-M.jpg
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...scussions.html

Most dlp projectors have low native contrast and even low dynamic contrast, the contrast on the benq ht9060 is lower than the w1070, however, the optoma theo-z65 looks like it might have better dynamic contrast, a detailed review should be posted soon. The 0.95 ti dmd had better native contrast(2-3k) and with a dynamic iris or dynamic led dimming were able to get much better dynamic on/off(8-20k) and low apl contrast, but they will still be inferior to lcd/lcos with an iris for on/off and 1-2% adl and I believe above 4-5% contrast will be better.

http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

So all and all, if you have a reflective room(even with a dark grey screen) and can't take advantage of lcd/lcos low apl contrast, then consider dlp projectors that have 100% color brightness and good lenses and dynamic iris/lamp dimming. DLP pixel response(black to white and white to black) is essentially instantaneous, some thing like .01ms. For reference, JVC D-ILA is 2.5ms black to white and I believe instantaneous on/off, Sony LCOS is 5ms btw and wtb. I was unable to find a figure for Epson LCD, probably 5-15ms though I often hear there's more motion blur with Epson than with sony/jvc. OLED tvs are about 1-2ms. VA tvs are 15-25ms. And there's something about the mirror verse the liquid crystal that I like alot.
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post #11 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I think for the BenQ with smarteco, the dynamic contrast increases a bit, say from 1.5k native to 4-5k. That combined with a dark grey screen and the correct light output(i had to use a 1stop nd filter to get light right on my smaller screen) resulted in pretty decent overall contrast seemingly maintaining that 3-5k up through 10% adl. The contrast/black level is very comparable to various 4-6k contrast va tvs I have.
Don't know what to make of this. The attached monitor has 3000:1 CR, and is better by a significant margin than the projector with SmartEco on, using the same images with 5-10% ADL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Also, the irises/dynamic lamps for lcd/lcos projectors seem to only effect on/off and 1-2% adl, whereas dynamic systems on dlp are effective further up the range.
Is this true of the HC3200/3800?
What about the HT3550 and HT5550?

Do figures for the DI contrast exist for the Benqs?
What about for the Sony's with iris (HW50/55/65), and Epson TW9400 (6040UB)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
How can the Dynamic setting have the iris closed or open? Isn't it automatic?
For the figures of 1 and 2% ADL with Dynamic and open iris, are those higher because the light is hitting back of the iris (when the iris is closed)? Shouldn't the figures with the iris closed be higher?




The ADL levels that I'm trying to preserve are sub 5%, 1-2%.

The question is how much contrast can a ALR/Silver Fire/FolkArtGunmetal mix screen keep in a room with white walls.
The Cinegrey 3D claims it rejects 65% of ambient light.
Does this mean for a projector with a CR of 12000:1 (with iris) at 1% ADL (in a white room) will loose 2300 out of the 7000 it would have lost with a white screen, with an effective 7500:1 CR?
https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...S-Contrast.png

Last edited by noob00224; 11-20-2019 at 05:26 PM.
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post #12 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 07:02 PM
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Don't know what to make of this. The attached monitor has 3000:1 CR, and is better by a significant margin than the projector with SmartEco on, using the same images with 5-10% ADL.
My black levels are way down from stock between smart eco, the nd2 filter, and the .6-.8 dark grey screen. But the only dynamic intrascene measurements Ive seen for DLP are from the sim2, and that's a highly specialized projection system, so it's possible that dynamic intrascene contrast is very similar to native, however observing the systems doesn't appear to be the case, and various dynamic on/off measurements of the .95 led projectors indicate say 10000 contrast at 5% led power, 20000 at 2%, stuff like that.

H9090 review: "Dynamic Black Max mode white measured 41.673fL, black was .002fL and the contrast ratio was 21,052.3:1. Dynamic Black 8x white level of 39.5798fL, a black level of .0026fL and a contrast ratio of 15,016.9:1"

HT9060(smart eco): https://www.projectorcentral.com/Ben...s,-Connections
HT5550(iris): https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...BenQ-W5700.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Is this true of the HC3200/3800? What about the HT3550 and HT5550? Do figures for the DI contrast exist for the Benqs? What about for the Sony's with iris (HW50/55/65), and Epson TW9400 (6040UB)?
I'm pretty sure there are dynamic measurements on projector dream for alot of the older(2016~) sony and epson projectors,
http://projectiondream.com/en/sony-v...iew-projector/
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...s10000-battle/


Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
How can the Dynamic setting have the iris closed or open? Isn't it automatic? For the figures of 1 and 2% ADL with Dynamic and open iris, are those higher because the light is hitting back of the iris (when the iris is closed)? Shouldn't the figures with the iris closed be higher?
There are 2 irises, one manual to control light output, then the dynamic iris.
The contrast is higher with the manual iris open due to the higher light output. Contrast is just a measurement of white divided by black. So the black dynamic measurement is the same, but the white measurement changes with the manual iris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The ADL levels that I'm trying to preserve are sub 5%, 1-2%. The question is how much contrast can a ALR/Silver Fire/FolkArtGunmetal mix screen keep in a room with white walls. The Cinegrey 3D claims it rejects 65% of ambient light. Does this mean for a projector with a CR of 12000:1 (with iris) at 1% ADL (in a white room) will loose 2300 out of the 7000 it would have lost with a white screen, with an effective 7500:1 CR?
https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...S-Contrast.png
ya that's tough to say... but it's probably a decent estimate.
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post #13 of 16 Old 11-20-2019, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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My black levels are way down from stock between smart eco, the nd2 filter, and the .6-.8 dark grey screen.
What is the size of the screen? Is that the XY Black Crystal 0.8?
Does the 1stop filter reduce light output by 50%?
What is the fL after the filter and after it hits the screen? Generally speaking.


Tested with a grey screen a while back (probably 0.5-0.7 gain) with the projector at ~20fL: the blacks were deeper, the colors were severely washed out.

I can't tell the difference, visually, between SmartEco and Normal. Is it visible on the W1070?

Don’t go thinking of this projector as really using lamp dimming as a dynamic iris. I did some quick measurements comparing a near black screen with one filled with white credits. I measured the brightness of the white pause marker in the lower left corner. With the credits running, the projector measured that white as about 50% brighter, which matches up pretty nicely in that full power is roughly 50% brighter than Eco.


https://www.projectorreviews.com/ben...d-lamp-dimming
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What is the size of the screen? Is that the XY Black Crystal 0.8? Does the 1stop filter reduce light output by 50%? What is the fL after the filter and after it hits the screen? Generally speaking.
92"
yes xy bc .8
yup 50% for 1stop nd2
depends i wanna say i use 10fl for bright stuff, anime, cartoons, youtube, 15fl for movies n shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Tested with a grey screen a while back (probably 0.5-0.7 gain) with the projector at ~20fL: the blacks were deeper, the colors were severely washed out.

I can't tell the difference, visually, between SmartEco and Normal. Is it visible on the W1070?
Hmm, washed out compared to a white screen at 30-40fl, or? Budget dlp projectors typically have lower color brightness compared to white brightness as well.

Yes smart eco should be as bright or brighter than normal on full white and as dim or dimmer than economic on full black, I think it uses the same lamp power as blank. If I remember normal pulled 320w, eco 250w, blank 120w, and smart eco ranged from 120w to 350w
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
92"
yes xy bc .8
yup 50% for 1stop nd2
depends i wanna say i use 10fl for bright stuff, anime, cartoons, youtube, 15fl for movies n shows.

Could it be that the screen being an ALR helps with the colors? 10 and 15fL is not that high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post


Hmm, washed out compared to a white screen at 30-40fl, or? Budget dlp projectors typically have lower color brightness compared to white brightness as well.

Yes smart eco should be as bright or brighter than normal on full white and as dim or dimmer than economic on full black, I think it uses the same lamp power as blank. If I remember normal pulled 320w, eco 250w, blank 120w, and smart eco ranged from 120w to 350w
The 20fL was an estimation before it reached the screen. Fabric was Cinegrey matte with a 1.0 gain, but probably wasn't:
https://elitescreens.com/front/front...il/product/284
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....AC_SL1000_.jpg

The grey screen was placed over half the ALR, and compared between the two. Viewing position was from the front.
From memory the "white" fabric had poorer blacks and less pop in colors (than the ALR), but not to the extent of the grey screen.

Measured the power draw with a wattmeter, it varied between 214W and 296W:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post57903346

Last edited by noob00224; 11-21-2019 at 12:32 AM.
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post #16 of 16 Old 11-21-2019, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Could it be that the screen being an ALR helps with the colors? 10 and 15fL is not that high. The 20fL was an estimation before it reached the screen. Fabric was Cinegrey matte with a 1.0 gain, but probably wasn't. The grey screen was placed over half the ALR, and compared between the two. Viewing position was from the front.
From memory the "white" fabric had poorer blacks and less pop in colors (than the ALR), but not to the extent of the grey screen
Hmm well comparing the materials directly with the same light output is kind of like comparing to speakers at different volume levels. If light output was set to the white material then the dark materials colors would look washed out/dim and need the projector to be twice as bright. I dont know if the alr material impacts colors though, some have a blue push that youd calibrate out with white balance controls but that should be it. Whats happening with the alr material is its rejecting cross reflections and maintaining image contrast. 0.8 to 1.0 matte gain screens dont reject alot of ambient light

For color differences though, a single chip color wheel dlp has a lower color brightness vs white brightness compared to 3chip projectors, and rgb led light sources have superior color wavelengths. so worst to best for color wash with ambient light would be
1. single chip dlp with a uhp lamp
2. 3 chip lcs/lco/dlp with a uhp lamp
3. single chip dlp with rgb leds

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Sim2Mico/Sim2Mico_Test.htm
uhp lamp:
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/VivitekLED/Bild45.jpg
rgb leds:
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Sim2Mico/Spektrumweiss.jpg


I think my light outputs something like this... its probably not totally accurate but gives an idea
Movies:
W1070 Smart Eco 1200lumens
+10% for brilliant color = 1320
-20% for the bulb age = 106
-50% for the filter = 528
-20% for the screen = 420 lumens or 16fl

RS45 High Iris Open 850 lumens
-20% for bulb age = 680
-20% for screen = 544

Cartoons/youtube:
W1070 Eco 900lumens
-20% for the bulb age = 720
-50% for the filter = 360
-20% for the screen = 288 lumens or 11fl

RS45 Normal 550 Iris closed 385 lumens
-20% for bulb age = 308
-20% for screen = 246
Insane contrast in this setting for anime/cartoons

And currently the Vivitek H9090
800 lumens
-75% for nd4 filter = 200 lumens
-20% for the screen = 160
The led lumens are something else... no filter(800 ansi lumens d65) is like the sun, even the nd2 filter at 400 lumens is uncomfortably bright. The nd4 still has bright whites and colors are intensely vibrant even at rec709, colors wash out less in ambient light, and light seems to interact less with the sparkle of the screens gain layer so the image looks more solid and uniform. Even though native contrast is lower perceived contrast is higher due to the led color wavelengths and color contrast or something like that. And the dynamic contrast stunningly high contrast, though still not like the lcd/lcos low apl performance and that particular system on this projector is imperfect.
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Last edited by bdht; 11-21-2019 at 03:17 AM.
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