Leaving Sony 45ES and going to Samsung 82" Q70 TV. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Leaving Sony 45ES and going to Samsung 82" Q70 TV.

Decided I wanted true 4K sooner then a projector could give me for a reasonable price. Plus I really love the bright sharp picture the Samsung 82 inch Q70 has. Has anyone else made this move and what do you think?
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post #2 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 10:14 AM
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Man...tell me how that goes. I have a 45ES. Before that I had a 50 inch Panny plasma. While I love the 45ES, I'm feeling the itch to jump to 4k but won't do so unless it's at least a slight improvement in contrast and black levels over the current projector AND not $7k.
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post #3 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gooch02000 View Post
Man...tell me how that goes. I have a 45ES. Before that I had a 50 inch Panny plasma. While I love the 45ES, I'm feeling the itch to jump to 4k but won't do so unless it's at least a slight improvement in contrast and black levels over the current projector AND not $7k.
I plan on purchasing the TV just before Christmas, hoping for a good deal. I really think I cant go wrong picture wise.

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post #4 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 12:09 PM
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The TV will be sharper, have better contrast/HDR. Worse viewing angles. Not sure how large your current screen is but 82” is tiny. I’m currently ‘getting by’ with a 100” screen (which is small by current front projector standards) and it’s still 50% larger than an 82”. My cousin still has an 82” TV that he bought right around a decade ago and it looks small to my eyes.

But I hear you. The 45ES is a unique value in 1080p. I know it’s not real 4K but have you considered the Epson 5050? It’s still a significant improvement over 1080p and should have comparable contrast and better blacks. It’s less than $3K. Epson has improved their HDR tone mapping and the 5050 is bright enough you could easily push a truly huge screen.

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post #5 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
The TV will be sharper, have better contrast/HDR. Worse viewing angles. Not sure how large your current screen is but 82” is tiny. I’m currently ‘getting by’ with a 100” screen (which is small by current front projector standards) and it’s still 50% larger than an 82”. My cousin still has an 82” TV that he bought right around a decade ago and it looks small to my eyes.

But I hear you. The 45ES is a unique value in 1080p. I know it’s not real 4K but have you considered the Epson 5050? It’s still a significant improvement over 1080p and should have comparable contrast and better blacks. It’s less than $3K. Epson has improved their HDR tone mapping and the 5050 is bright enough you could easily push a truly huge screen.
I just had the Epson 5050 and compared it to my 45ES and returned it, because for $3000.00 did not see a massive improvement and that's why I decided to go with the Samsung Q70 TV and real 4K. Many people in home theater business have told me the 45ES is much better than the Epson 5050 so I had to try and see for myself. It was a little brighter, but for $3000.00 I decided to go for the TV. I have a 120 inch screen 14 feet away. I think the 82 inch size will be just fine for me. Later I may put in an Electric screen, to watch sporting events.
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post #6 of 28 Old 11-23-2019, 11:53 PM
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I think a projector in a dedicated fully light controlled properly treated room is impossible to beat. As soon as the room environment is not ideal the only true advantage a projector has is screen size. So I assume you have a less then ideal room so it comes down to a big screen or the best PQ and it's purely personal preference.

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post #7 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 02:41 AM
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As a practical solution TV ticks more boxes than any projector ever will, it’s much less affected by light conditions and has less issues with mounting plus everything is one the one box with no absolute need for amp and speakers unless you really want them. But this doesn’t mean it’s the more enjoyable experience for everyone because it simply isn’t, despite size being a limiting factor the actually cinematic experience just isn’t there for most of us, yes it’s sharper, with better blacks but it’s nothing like going to the movies which is something most of us in this hobby are trying to recreate.

I absolutely love my 65” OLED in our family room for general TV watching but I would never watch a movie on it.
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post #8 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
As a practical solution TV ticks more boxes than any projector ever will, it’s much less affected by light conditions and has less issues with mounting plus everything is one the one box with no absolute need for amp and speakers unless you really want them. But this doesn’t mean it’s the more enjoyable experience for everyone because it simply isn’t, despite size being a limiting factor the actually cinematic experience just isn’t there for most of us, yes it’s sharper, with better blacks but it’s nothing like going to the movies which is something most of us in this hobby are trying to recreate.

I absolutely love my 65” OLED in our family room for general TV watching but I( would never watch a movie on it).
I feel the same way The new t.v s look great just not going to do it for me ,well maybe a 120 inch would be big enough
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post #9 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
The TV will be sharper, have better contrast/HDR. Worse viewing angles. Not sure how large your current screen is but 82” is tiny. I’m currently ‘getting by’ with a 100” screen (which is small by current front projector standards) and it’s still 50% larger than an 82”. My cousin still has an 82” TV that he bought right around a decade ago and it looks small to my eyes.

But I hear you. The 45ES is a unique value in 1080p. I know it’s not real 4K but have you considered the Epson 5050? It’s still a significant improvement over 1080p and should have comparable contrast and better blacks. It’s less than $3K. Epson has improved their HDR tone mapping and the 5050 is bright enough you could easily push a truly huge screen.
Yeah, that really is the only option available to me at this point. I have a 165 inch screen, and sit quite close (about 11 feet), so I think I'd prefer 4k addressable pixels. On the other hand, I bet if I saw one in person I wouldn't care. As long as contrast + black levels and HDR + brightness was on point, I doubt I'd care that it's not full 4k...
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post #10 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 10:19 AM
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Leaving Sony 45ES and going to Samsung 82" Q70 TV.

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Originally Posted by vid53 View Post
I just had the Epson 5050 and compared it to my 45ES and returned it, because for $3000.00 did not see a massive improvement and that's why I decided to go with the Samsung Q70 TV and real 4K. Many people in home theater business have told me the 45ES is much better than the Epson 5050 so I had to try and see for myself. It was a little brighter, but for $3000.00 I decided to go for the TV. I have a 120 inch screen 14 feet away. I think the 82 inch size will be just fine for me. Later I may put in an Electric screen, to watch sporting events.


Yikes. Going from a 120” to an 82” is dropping your screen size by more than half. That’s a big decrease. And from 14 feet away? We sat around the same distance away from our 82” and I’ll tell you at that range 4K doesn’t even matter. Your eyes will not be able to resolve any extra clarity over 1080p— the screen is too small/you’re sitting too far away.

According to rtings.com, a site I really respect for this stuff, you’d need a larger than 100” screen to resolve 4K at a distance of 14’. Basically you’d need the screen you have now.

Click image for larger version

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That’s a conundrum. You’re going to a much smaller screen to get 4K but that much smaller screen is really too small to allow 4K a meaningful difference at your seating distance. Of, course, it WILL look sharper just as an HD screen on a smart phone looks impossible sharp. But I think you’re probably better off waiting to see what Sony announces to replace the 45ES. It has to announce something soon— right?
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post #11 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 12:04 PM
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Projector vs. TV has been debated for decades so the pros and cons of each are well documented. The best of all worlds has always been and continues to be having one of each. If you can only have one you will have to accept compromise.
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post #12 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 02:56 PM
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Yeah, that really is the only option available to me at this point. I have a 165 inch screen, and sit quite close (about 11 feet), so I think I'd prefer 4k addressable pixels. On the other hand, I bet if I saw one in person I wouldn't care. As long as contrast + black levels and HDR + brightness was on point, I doubt I'd care that it's not full 4k...


Opinions of the Epson 5050 run from “it’s the best projector on the planet and eats 10K projectors for breakfast fight me.” To opinions like the OP’s: really not that much better than my several year old, cheaper Sony. And everywhere in between. Ditto for the pixel shift employed. Some people say it’s indistinguishable from 4K and others say it’s barely any different from 1080p. So I think seeing one for yourself is likely the only way to know if it would work for you.

And It all depends on your priorities. Unfortunately, the least expensive projector with the closet performance to the 45ES IN 4K is likely going to be the 295ES at $4500. Like most every other company, the move to 4K has cost Sony in lumen output and also somewhat in the contrast department. The 295 isn’t as flexible in it’s output (the 45Es is brighter) and can only match the 45ES’s contrast when fed HDR content.

I’m just happy that 4K didn’t make projectors obsolete the way 4K made plasma obsolete. The move to 4K on front projection is not at all the same as the move to 4K on flatscreens. Either in terms of visible difference and cost. 4K on flatscreens is now expected while 4K on front projection is still a premium cost feature. I would also argue that 4K is far more impactful on the size screens projectors can produce. That’s why you constantly hear that HDR— not resolution— is the far bigger deal for UHD on TV sets.
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post #13 of 28 Old 11-24-2019, 03:02 PM
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Wow the OP is going from a 120" to an 82"? I could never give up my 120" for an 82" no matter what the picture looks like.
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post #14 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Yikes. Going from a 120” to an 82” is dropping your screen size by more than half. That’s a big decrease. And from 14 feet away? We sat around the same distance away from our 82” and I’ll tell you at that range 4K doesn’t even matter. Your eyes will not be able to resolve any extra clarity over 1080p— the screen is too small/you’re sitting too far away.

According to rtings.com, a site I really respect for this stuff, you’d need a larger than 100” screen to resolve 4K at a distance of 14’. Basically you’d need the screen you have now.

Attachment 2645030

That’s a conundrum. You’re going to a much smaller screen to get 4K but that much smaller screen is really too small to allow 4K a meaningful difference at your seating distance. Of, course, it WILL look sharper just as an HD screen on a smart phone looks impossible sharp. But I think you’re probably better off waiting to see what Sony announces to replace the 45ES. It has to announce something soon— right?
The only thing I see him benefiting from is HDR, other than that it's all a backward step in my opinion. The image will look no crisper from this distance and whilst blacks will be better unless it's an OLED this improvement will not be huge.

As for Sony replacing the HW45es, I seriously doubt this will happen. Since JVC introduced their new 4K range they aren't replacing their DLA-X range so I can't see Sony replacing theirs.
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post #15 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 06:40 AM
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Yikes. Going from a 120” to an 82” is dropping your screen size by more than half. That’s a big decrease. And from 14 feet away? We sat around the same distance away from our 82” and I’ll tell you at that range 4K doesn’t even matter. Your eyes will not be able to resolve any extra clarity over 1080p— the screen is too small/you’re sitting too far away.

According to rtings.com, a site I really respect for this stuff, you’d need a larger than 100” screen to resolve 4K at a distance of 14’. Basically you’d need the screen you have now.

Attachment 2645030

That’s a conundrum. You’re going to a much smaller screen to get 4K but that much smaller screen is really too small to allow 4K a meaningful difference at your seating distance. Of, course, it WILL look sharper just as an HD screen on a smart phone looks impossible sharp. But I think you’re probably better off waiting to see what Sony announces to replace the 45ES. It has to announce something soon— right?
There is no guarantee that Sony will release an update to the 45es. I was told they let go a lot of their home theater employees a year or so ago. They may just try to focus on large flat screens and the scale-able led walls. Home projection, no matter how much we love it probably isn't the most profitable segment to devote resources to. I hope they don't drop out of the race like so many before them. I miss Panasonic's projectors!
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post #16 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 07:01 AM
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I got a used Sony 695ES for a pretty good price, so I would suggest looking for something like that or a used JVC NX7 when they pop up. Sure, it will cost a bit more than the 82" you are looking at, but with your seating distance and screen size, I think it would still be your best bet.
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post #17 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Opinions of the Epson 5050 run from “it’s the best projector on the planet and eats 10K projectors for breakfast fight me.” To opinions like the OP’s: really not that much better than my several year old, cheaper Sony. And everywhere in between. Ditto for the pixel shift employed. Some people say it’s indistinguishable from 4K and others say it’s barely any different from 1080p. So I think seeing one for yourself is likely the only way to know if it would work for you. ...
It's certainly true that you can find someone to say almost anything about almost anything. So what anyone sees with their own eyes is really all that matters to them. But the opinions of experienced professional AV reviewers who do this for a living are pretty unanimous that Epson's pixel-shifting produces an image that's much closer to 4K than 1080p. For example, I know how much you respect the opinion of Chris Eberle at hometheaterhifi.com, and this is how he started his review of the 5050UB:

Quote:
The 5050UB sits atop Epson’s Home Cinema line of affordable high-performance 3LCD projectors. With a fantastic pixel-shift feature, it delivers Ultra HD resolution that to my eyes, looks no different than a native Ultra HD projector.
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post #18 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 08:36 AM
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Leaving Sony 45ES and going to Samsung 82" Q70 TV.

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It's certainly true that you can find someone to say almost anything about almost anything. So what anyone sees with their own eyes is really all that matters to them. But the opinions of experienced professional AV reviewers who do this for a living are pretty unanimous that Epson's pixel-shifting produces an image that's much closer to 4K than 1080p. For example, I know how much you respect the opinion of Chris Eberle at hometheaterhifi.com, and this is how he started his review of the 5050UB:


?

That’s exactly my point. The OP tried the 5050 and he was unmoved. I was replying to gooch.

It should also be mentioned that Eberle does all of his testing on a 92” screen.
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post #19 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 08:46 AM
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There is no guarantee that Sony will release an update to the 45es. I was told they let go a lot of their home theater employees a year or so ago. They may just try to focus on large flat screens and the scale-able led walls. Home projection, no matter how much we love it probably isn't the most profitable segment to devote resources to. I hope they don't drop out of the race like so many before them. I miss Panasonic's projectors!


100% true: there is no guarantee they will update it. But Sony is still very much in the front projection game. I’m always hearing doom and gloom about front projection and yet sales and projections seem to say otherwise. I’d be much more worried about their TV business.

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post #20 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Opinions of the Epson 5050 run from “it’s the best projector on the planet and eats 10K projectors for breakfast fight me.” To opinions like the OP’s: really not that much better than my several year old, cheaper Sony. And everywhere in between. Ditto for the pixel shift employed. Some people say it’s indistinguishable from 4K and others say it’s barely any different from 1080p. So I think seeing one for yourself is likely the only way to know if it would work for you.
Not sure how many on here have actually made the switch from HW45 to the Epson but I have and I have spoke quite a few times on how these two projectors differ and how similar they are too. When feed a good quality 1080P source these two are inseparable in my opinion, the Epson 9400 (6050 stateside) has a brightness advantage when not calibrated and a slight contrast boost but as for crispness both images look identical.

Where the Epson steps it up a level is when you feed it a good UHD disc, then it not only looks a bit crisper but you also have the added bonus of a projector that works extremely well with HDR, definitely the best thing I’ve seen thought I hear JVC’s new firmware on their 4K PJs is another level again.

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And It all depends on your priorities. Unfortunately, the least expensive projector with the closet performance to the 45ES IN 4K is likely going to be the 295ES at $4500. Like most every other company, the move to 4K has cost Sony in lumen output and also somewhat in the contrast department. The 295 isn’t as flexible in it’s output (the 45Es is brighter) and can only match the 45ES’s contrast when fed HDR content.
I’ve compared the 350es against the Epson and based on that I would personally say save your money.
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Many people in home theater business have told me the 45ES is much better than the Epson 5050 so I had to try and see for myself. It was a little brighter, but for $3000.00 I decided to go for the TV. I have a 120 inch screen 14 feet away. I think the 82 inch size will be just fine for me. Later I may put in an Electric screen, to watch sporting events.
Since you compared these two projectors what are your thoughts?
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post #22 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 10:59 AM
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... It should also be mentioned that Eberle does all of his testing on a 92” screen.
True, but of course screen size alone is insufficient data. We'd also need to know what distance he's viewing that 92" screen from to understand how much fine detail he might be expected to distinguish. In any case, the reviewers at projectorreviews.com, projectorcentral.com and other reliable review sites have made similar comments.
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post #23 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 12:51 PM
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Leaving Sony 45ES and going to Samsung 82" Q70 TV.

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
True, but of course screen size alone is insufficient data. We'd also need to know what distance he's viewing that 92" screen from to understand how much fine detail he might be expected to distinguish. In any case, the reviewers at projectorreviews.com, projectorcentral.com and other reliable review sites have made similar comments.


Hm... you seem to be confusing my comment. This is literally my point. The OP tried the 5050 and he returned it. I was responding to gooch who had just read the OP say he tried the 5050 and ended up back with his 45ES. Not a ringing endorsement but that was the OP sitting 14 feet from a 120” screen. Technically within the “worth it” range but apparently not worth it enough— and that is totally OK. The OP is allowed to have an opinion that maybe doesn’t coincide with yours or that of Chris or Art or Rob’s. But Gooch has a 165” screen! Yes, screen size /seating distance matters! I would think that on a 165” screen, any improvement in resolution will be noticeable— assuming he doesn’t sit 30 feet away which I think we CAN assume. So I was encouraging Gooch to not count out the 5050 even though the OP’s experience was (and I’m paraphrasing here) ‘meh’.
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post #24 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Not sure how many on here have actually made the switch from HW45 to the Epson but I have and I have spoke quite a few times on how these two projectors differ and how similar they are too. When feed a good quality 1080P source these two are inseparable in my opinion, the Epson 9400 (6050 stateside) has a brightness advantage when not calibrated and a slight contrast boost but as for crispness both images look identical.



Where the Epson steps it up a level is when you feed it a good UHD disc, then it not only looks a bit crisper but you also have the added bonus of a projector that works extremely well with HDR, definitely the best thing I’ve seen thought I hear JVC’s new firmware on their 4K PJs is another level again.







I’ve compared the 350es against the Epson and based on that I would personally say save your money.


Although I’m going to slap myself for saying this— the 350ES is getting a little long in the tooth isn’t it? Again, I say that fully understanding that I’m watching Netflix on a 2013 plasma and I just bought winter tires for my 2011 sedan.... not trying to sound boojee or anything. There’s a word for you Luminated!

My point is, at least in the general realm of 4K and specifically in the realm of 4K front projection: a couple years is an eternity. The 350 dates from 2015!

But I get your point and, yes, the reason I suggested the 5050 is I’ve heard nothing but positive things about it’s picture and value. I have not yet had the pleasure to see a 5050. I have seen the 5040ub and 4010. I made some folks mad when I suggested the 4010 over the 5040ub around a year or so back here on this forum. I did so understanding the 5040ub had better native contrast but I just couldn’t get over how improved the 4010 was when it came to HDR tone mapping and wide color implementation. The 4010 got sort of dismissed as a barely updated version of the 4000 and I ALMOST bought that line until I actually saw one and realized how much of an improvement it was. I guess that’s MY point about the 350. I can’t think it’s representative of Sony’s current lineup.

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post #25 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Hm... you seem to be confusing my comment. ...
I get it now. You think I'm arguing against your comment. In fact I'm just adding supporting data to your comment. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough that we're in agreement on this.
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post #26 of 28 Old 11-25-2019, 07:35 PM
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I get it now. You think I'm arguing against your comment. In fact I'm just adding supporting data to your comment. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough that we're in agreement on this.


Ok. That makes more sense. I was literally like: that’s what I’m saying. Lol!

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post #27 of 28 Old 11-26-2019, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Although I’m going to slap myself for saying this— the 350ES is getting a little long in the tooth isn’t it? Again, I say that fully understanding that I’m watching Netflix on a 2013 plasma and I just bought winter tires for my 2011 sedan.... not trying to sound boojee or anything. There’s a word for you Luminated!

My point is, at least in the general realm of 4K and specifically in the realm of 4K front projection: a couple years is an eternity. The 350 dates from 2015!

But I get your point and, yes, the reason I suggested the 5050 is I’ve heard nothing but positive things about it’s picture and value. I have not yet had the pleasure to see a 5050. I have seen the 5040ub and 4010. I made some folks mad when I suggested the 4010 over the 5040ub around a year or so back here on this forum. I did so understanding the 5040ub had better native contrast but I just couldn’t get over how improved the 4010 was when it came to HDR tone mapping and wide color implementation. The 4010 got sort of dismissed as a barely updated version of the 4000 and I ALMOST bought that line until I actually saw one and realized how much of an improvement it was. I guess that’s MY point about the 350. I can’t think it’s representative of Sony’s current lineup.
This may indeed be true but at the time of purchase which I think he bought it June 2018 and paid £5K for it as a demo I believe so it was twice the price I paid for my Epson 9400. He was shocked in not a good way that his purchase wasn't killing it against the Epson.

If I were to sit 8ft from a 150" screen I probably wouldn't have the Epson (there I said it), I would likely have bite the bullet and bought a JVC Native 4K but from the distance I watch from on the screen size I have I honestly don't think there is anything out there that betters it for image vs outlay.
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post #28 of 28 Old 11-26-2019, 01:40 AM
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I understand the draw of the new low priced high quality TVs.

I have been using projectors since 1999 (currently have a 285ES) and recently the notion that I may have more fun with a inexpensive direct view set is something I can surely relate to. I saw an OLED yesterday and it was like looking at something real. It would be very easy to relax with a nice set like that. (until the burn in.)

My suggestion is get a nice flat panel as a secondary system. This works for me because I have a large house. Currently I have the Home Theater in the basement, a small LCD for video games on the first floor and an old Plasma with Roku in my bedroom on the second floor. If I still lived in California, I wouldn't have anything except bills to pay and a single room apartment.

However, I am currently looking for a used 45ES (45ES is 1080perfected) for a friend so with that in mind I support your plan.

-Brian
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Last edited by Brian Hampton; 11-26-2019 at 01:51 AM.
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