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post #1 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Ideal projector for low quality content in cult movie theater?

Hi all

I am part of a pretty cool small underground theatre which has been showcasing the very best cult, odd and seedy specimens from cinema’s underbelly for the last 30 years.

Our old projector which has served us well for over 15 years is headed for greener blood splattered pastures so we are in the market for a replacement.

Since many of the movies we showcase are too obscure to have been graced with a remastered 4k Blu-ray transfer we have to make sure our new projector is gentle with low res, low quality sources.

I did always marvel at how organic a picture our 2005 720p Panasonic projector managed to produce from even the most budget dvd releases of old forgotten movies.

I have a feeling that most current 1080p/4K projectors only shine when fed a premium source, and will perform quite poorly given our typical fare.

So, good folk, I wish to draw upon your expertise. Our budget is around a $1200-1400, and we want a projector that will handle low tier transfer dvd’s of movies from the 70’s and back as gently as did our old workhorse.

Of course it should do well on the occasional top tier Blu-ray versions get a hold of when they are available.

Currently we are thinking of the Optoma UHD300X. But you are welcome to steer us towards better, more appropriate devices.

thanks in advance
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post #2 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 12:53 PM
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I am assuming your old Panny was a LCD projector so switching to DLP may be a bad idea. The LCD Epson 3100/3700 are on closeout at least here in the US and are about half your budget. With the extra $ you should invest in a HTPC with a decent GPU capable of running MadVR for the best available up-scaling processor for dirt cheap.
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post #3 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post
Hi all

I am part of a pretty cool small underground theatre which has been showcasing the very best cult, odd and seedy specimens from cinema’s underbelly for the last 30 years.

Our old projector which has served us well for over 15 years is headed for greener blood splattered pastures so we are in the market for a replacement.

Since many of the movies we showcase are too obscure to have been graced with a remastered 4k Blu-ray transfer we have to make sure our new projector is gentle with low res, low quality sources.

I did always marvel at how organic a picture our 2005 720p Panasonic projector managed to produce from even the most budget dvd releases of old forgotten movies.

I have a feeling that most current 1080p/4K projectors only shine when fed a premium source, and will perform quite poorly given our typical fare.

So, good folk, I wish to draw upon your expertise. Our budget is around a $1200-1400, and we want a projector that will handle low tier transfer dvd’s of movies from the 70’s and back as gently as did our old workhorse.

Of course it should do well on the occasional top tier Blu-ray versions get a hold of when they are available.

Currently we are thinking of the Optoma UHD300X. But you are welcome to steer us towards better, more appropriate devices.

thanks in advance

The EU version of the HC3700 is the TW6700. There is no HC3100 version.

I'm not sure how older lower resolution will be handles by these projectors. What rekbones said about madvr is a good idea.

The 300x is a good 4K unit.

The Epson TW7000 even though it's 4K, has half the pixels of the 300x and might be more forgiving. It will still be sharper than a 1080p unit when fed a 4K signal.

Depends what you want in a projector. Black levels at this price are not possible unless buying a used Sony or JVC, AND treating the walls for reflections.

LE: what is the seating distance, projector to screen distance, screen size, and screen fabric?

Last edited by noob00224; 11-27-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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post #4 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes the old projector was LCD, but what is the problem with DLP? The rainbows?

As for going with a HTPC, I am afraid that is out of the question. The only thing in our setup that can change is the projector.

As for distance, I’s say the first row is 2-3 meters from the screen, whose size I do not know precisely. Our theater only seats about 40 people, so it isn’t huge. The screen material, once again I do not know.

It looks like standard plain white projector screen material stuck to the wall.
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post #5 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post
Yes the old projector was LCD, but what is the problem with DLP? The rainbows?

As for going with a HTPC, I am afraid that is out of the question. The only thing in our setup that can change is the projector.

As for distance, I’s say the first row is 2-3 meters from the screen, whose size I do not know precisely. Our theater only seats about 40 people, so it isn’t huge. The screen material, once again I do not know.

It looks like standard plain white projector screen material stuck to the wall.

Some people are susceptible to RBE, so if there are 40 people watching it's best to get a 3LCD.

What is the size of the screen, roughly?

Options would be:
TW650
TW5400/5600/5650, or others in the TW5xxx class.
TW6700
TW7000/7100 for 4K

For all of these the specifications would need to be read to understand the throw range and placement.

Where can the projector be placed, at what distance, and can it be on the center axis of the screen?

What about an external player for scaling?
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post #6 of 19 Old 11-27-2019, 05:56 PM
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Avoid the tw650, too low contrast and grey blacks, tw5400 is better but has shorter throw and lower contrast than the tw5600/5650/6700/7000/7100.
I'd go for a tw6700/7000/7100

Reviews in French, and English at the bottom, or you can translate with google...

https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...son-eh-tw5400/
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
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post #7 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I busted out the tape measure and noted the following. The size of the screen is about 100”. The projector is mounted on the ceiling, head on, 4 meters away. First row seats are about 2 meters from screen.
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post #8 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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In terms of the player. Unfortunately we are a bit limited here. Since we show such obscure movies we often have to import copies, so we are limited to region free Blu-ray players.

Initially when shopping for Blu-ray players I wanted to go with a Panasonic UB420, because Panasonic is known to have a very good upscaler. Unfortunately the only region free solution for that player was available through regionfreedom, which is a site known to be run by frivolous asshats who will randomly decide to not sell their services to you without any explanation.

They decided not to respond to my purchase order, so we had to go for pre-modded systems. Pre-modded players are often older models, so we have a SONY blu-ray player. I don’t remember the model number, but it is from a few years back and not exactly top of the line.

But it can play DVD and Blu-rays from all regions without any issues.
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post #9 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Wait, I just remembered, the model number of our player is Sony BDP-S1700.
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post #10 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post
Ok, I busted out the tape measure and noted the following. The size of the screen is about 100”. The projector is mounted on the ceiling, head on, 4 meters away. First row seats are about 2 meters from screen.
Both the TW6700 and TW7000/7100 will work with this setup.

Dimension calculators:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

and for the TW7000/7100 (HC3200/3800 US):
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

Both TW5600 and TW5650 have almost identical throw ranges to the TW6700.

The TW6700 and TW7000/7100 have lens shift : Vertical ± 60 %, horizontal ± 24 %.
The calculators above, at the bottom of the page, specify the limitations of the lens shift after selecting the screen diagonal.

The TW5600/5650 has Vertical lens shift of 15%.
More specifically, if the projector is mounted in the ceiling mount (projector is inverted), and the center of the lens at the same level as the top of the screen, the image can be moved 10% upwards and 5% downwards.
5 or 10% of the height of the screen.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

TW5600/5650=HC2100/2150


Can't say if the external players will be sufficient.

Last edited by noob00224; 11-29-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool, I think I will suggest the 7000/7100 to our crew then. I did speak to them before, but the other guy responsible for tech said he preferred the Optoma. I think since he is familiar with the brand.
I doubt we will have the opportunity to see either in action, so in the end it is my recommendation against his.

While I doubt anyone in our audience will notice the DLP rainbows, I am certain I will. So I am hoping to get my way with the Epson LCD.
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-29-2019, 09:15 AM
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I'm the U.S. and have the Epson HC3100 and a region modded Sony BDP-S6700 in my small home theater. My watching is almost exclusively horror, cult and grindhouse films of all genres. The image quality with this setup is fantastic and I run the projector on the lowest "Eco" bulb setting 99% of the time. I've never seen the Optoma but there are a lot of happy Epson owners here on the forum.

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DLP's main advantage for movies is sharpness, which is not a prime concern with lower quality sources. 3LCD is almost always better for larger groups as some will have more sensitivity to DLP rainbows than others. While none of the lower cost projectors have great black levels for darker horror movie scenes, having a dynamic iris can be somewhat helpful.
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post #14 of 19 Old 11-30-2019, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post
In terms of the player. Unfortunately we are a bit limited here. Since we show such obscure movies we often have to import copies, so we are limited to region free Blu-ray players.

Initially when shopping for Blu-ray players I wanted to go with a Panasonic UB420, because Panasonic is known to have a very good upscaler. Unfortunately the only region free solution for that player was available through regionfreedom, which is a site known to be run by frivolous asshats who will randomly decide to not sell their services to you without any explanation.

They decided not to respond to my purchase order, so we had to go for pre-modded systems. Pre-modded players are often older models, so we have a SONY blu-ray player. I don’t remember the model number, but it is from a few years back and not exactly top of the line.

But it can play DVD and Blu-rays from all regions without any issues.
The Sony UBP X700 works well for upscaling and is available online as a region free mod.

comparison of DVD upscaled to 4K and the 4K BD via the X700:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58387974
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post #15 of 19 Old 11-30-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post
Cool, I think I will suggest the 7000/7100 to our crew then. I did speak to them before, but the other guy responsible for tech said he preferred the Optoma. I think since he is familiar with the brand.
I doubt we will have the opportunity to see either in action, so in the end it is my recommendation against his.

While I doubt anyone in our audience will notice the DLP rainbows, I am certain I will. So I am hoping to get my way with the Epson LCD.
The odds of seeing the RBE in a 6 (UHD300X) or 8 (UHD51ALV) slice colour wheel projector are very low, and even if you see them it's likely to be very infrequent. Also the idea that a lower resolution projector is better for DVD is wrong. My UHD50 is superior to any of my lower res projectors for viewing upscaled content.
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post #16 of 19 Old 12-01-2019, 01:33 PM
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Ideal projector for low quality content in cult movie theater?

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
DLP's main advantage for movies is sharpness, which is not a prime concern with lower quality sources. 3LCD is almost always better for larger groups as some will have more sensitivity to DLP rainbows than others. While none of the lower cost projectors have great black levels for darker horror movie scenes, having a dynamic iris can be somewhat helpful.


Yikes, we’ve now reached the point on the forum where DLP is only recognized for it’s image sharpness and is I guess a liability for everything else?

@-=Kamikaze=-

I actually agree with noob’s suggestion for the Epson TW6700 but display tech doesn’t enter into the equation for me. Truthfully, seeing RBE these days especially on one of the 4K DLPs is exceedingly rare. It’s anecdotal but, my father’s church uses single chip DLPs and I’ve never heard of anyone having an issue. However— Having a projector that fits your desired throw and with enough flexibility to be square with your screen from your mounting position would be a larger concern for me. The Epson is the least expensive option that provides the most placement flexibility and would therefor be a closer match to your Panasonic than just about anything else in your price range. Considering you were satisfied with 720p— just about anything these days will feel like an improvement.

I will white knight a bit for 4K here though. And, of course, given your budget constraints that means DLP although this goes for any ultra high resolution display that may arrive in the future. More pixels is actually a good thing when it comes to viewing lower resolution content. While I’m not boot legging any DVDs I am a big fan of film and that often times means movies that aren’t currently available in 4K and sometimes aren’t even available in Hd. I always seek out the best transfer I can get my hands on but I’ve found that modern scaling algorithms combined with a massive pixel count can put less-than-stellar content in the best possible light. Nothing is ever going to make a garbage transfer look pristine but, as an example, I view all of my Hd content on the 4K projector because it actually looks SHARPER on the 4K display than the Hd display. I even play my “classic” consoles and all of my emulated content (typically 240p sometimes upscale to 720p in the case of the little Nintendos) on a 4K display now because it actually looks better than on my 1080p or 1440p displays. Having a tack sharp image with excellent pixel fill is rarely, if ever, a BAD thing.

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Yikes, we’ve now reached the point on the forum where DLP is only recognized for it’s image sharpness and is I guess a liability for everything else? ...
Come on now, I know your reading comprehension is better than that. I said that image sharpness is DLP's main advantage for movies, not the only one.
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There is a reason ALL commercial cinemas use 3-Chip DLP's so that RBE does not exist.

It certainly isn't completely rare, just some people aren't viewing in the proper conditions or proper content to see it.
4x Color wheels are about 15% to 25% of the population see it, higher if you train people to see it. Slower than that and it can get as high as 35%+.

Once you get faster than a true 4x color wheel, then yes, very very rare, but some can still see it, only very few.

I don't know how the 4k DLP speeds translate, as MFR's have a tendency to mislead on color wheel speeds (now and in the past).
I've seen some projectors claim 4x color wheels that couldn't have been faster than a 2x or 3x.

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post #19 of 19 Old 12-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Ideal projector for low quality content in cult movie theater?

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
There is a reason ALL commercial cinemas use 3-Chip DLP's so that RBE does not exist.



It certainly isn't completely rare, just some people aren't viewing in the proper conditions or proper content to see it.

4x Color wheels are about 15% to 25% of the population see it, higher if you train people to see it. Slower than that and it can get as high as 35%+.



Once you get faster than a true 4x color wheel, then yes, very very rare, but some can still see it, only very few.



I don't know how the 4k DLP speeds translate, as MFR's have a tendency to mislead on color wheel speeds (now and in the past).

I've seen some projectors claim 4x color wheels that couldn't have been faster than a 2x or 3x.


All quad shift 4K DLPs are “4X”.

It makes sense when you do the math. To display 4K at 60Hz the DMD needs to produce 4 pixels for each frame of 60Hz content. So 240Hz. A 4X RGBRGB colorwheel (or RGBWRGBW or GWBRGWB, etc etc) is 7200rpm or 120Hz with two passed of rgb per full rotation so... 240Hz.

This is why RBE isn’t really an issue with 4K DLP as much as it was with HD DLP. The majority of HD DLPs have only a “2X” color wheel.

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