Will DLP ever get decent black levels? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
All these electronics companies are interested mainly in making money and selling product to the most people they can find to buy them and market economy along with some level of expected quality is what drives the market.

I just watched the movie Ford vs Ferrari and it points out the difference to how different companies view the bottom line vs quality. It doesn’t mean they can’t do better it means they are sighting in on two different targets and each is hitting the bull’s eye.

DLP was doing pretty good IMO until the 4k push came along and TI was forced to catch up or fall behind. IMO they will continue to catch up as long as the niche market that are home projectors doesn’t get any smaller and that is a function of consumer perception. Right now there is a huge focus on TV displays that don’t require hardly anything special in the room design that are getting bigger and bigger in screen size. Combine that with a generation that is more sold on smart phones than anything else and see FP totally different than most of us here do.

Who knows.
Yeah I totally get you here, the latest generation are probably less likely to even go to the local cinema, choosing to watch a bootleg copy on the net.
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post #32 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Li On View Post
Sorry, I should quote this " it's just comparatively inferior. You can still have a great picture... All XPR dlp projectors had 0 appeal to me because of it though"!

IMO XPR DLP (especially the 0.47" version with H/V pixel shift) is the only choice for a real 4K resolution picture (together with a good lens). My pixel sharp 4K picture in 106" is unbelievable! 4K on a 3-clip projector is just a mess!

Yes, XPR DLP has poor black level. But overall, it's still the current best choice IMO! If in the future, the black level can match LCOS/SXRD, then all other projection technology will go out of business! That's why we can't have it all!

Thanks!
Really? This screen shot is from a 3 chip 4K JVC projector. It doesn't look like a mess to me -



DLP contrast has gotten much worse. My old SIM2 Lumis had 6800:1 contrast back in 2009.
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post #33 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Li On View Post
Sorry, I should quote this " it's just comparatively inferior. You can still have a great picture... All XPR dlp projectors had 0 appeal to me because of it though"!

IMO XPR DLP (especially the 0.47" version with H/V pixel shift) is the only choice for a real 4K resolution picture (together with a good lens). My pixel sharp 4K picture in 106" is unbelievable! 4K on a 3-clip projector is just a mess!

Yes, XPR DLP has poor black level. But overall, it's still the current best choice IMO! If in the future, the black level can match LCOS/SXRD, then all other projection technology will go out of business! That's why we can't have it all!

Thanks!
I’m amazed that you feel the current range of (non DLP) 4K projectors are a mess. I’ve demoed pretty much all of them in my pursuit of excellence but at an affordable level and at no point did I feel any of the differing tech had an advantage with resolution, at least when viewed at remotely normal viewing distances. Of course such things like viewing distance is a very personal thing and maybe you watch stuff on your 106” screen from 4ft away, I’ve tried getting closer than 9.5ft from my 100” but I just don’t like the experience so for me I doubt I will ever notice this difference you are clearly seeing.

I think even you would agree that given a choose you’d love your projector to have better blacks so clearly the desire is there, so why haven’t anyone came up with a solution?

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post #34 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I think even you would agree that given a choose you’d love your projector to have better blacks so clearly the desire is there, so why haven’t anyone came up with a solution?
It would be quite easy if somehow projectors could shoot out some sort of negative light source that would suck away light. What the problem is IMO they are trying to design a device that with one pixel will preclude passing any light and just a few 1/1000 of an inch away the next pixel is expected to pass enormous brightness. Now compound this with mass produced optics and tolerances of assembly. Now with 4k we are compressing all this into a smaller device and then expecting that device to “wobble” along with processing 4x the data.

The bottom line is black can never be blacker than the screen is and how we perceive the screen to look under whatever light remains in the room. Contrast that to a flat panel TV that doesn’t reflect light but emits light and in its non emitting state is black.

I’m always amazed actually that this DLP technology was ever invented in the first place and made to work at all. I’m really amazed it was perfected as far as it has been and is able to sustain the billions of cycles over its long life. Then when I think I can buy a 1080p Dark chip 3 projector for 500 bucks and easily throw up a 200” image and have an image better than 99% of the film projectors I have watched over my life. It is simply amazing.

I’m sure black levels (actually light blocking ability) will continue to improve I don’t see it as an easy task.

When I have a projector that can easily do a 200” screen in brightness I like to use some of that brightness to make a 100” screen have a lower starting point for black and in my case I’m using a 50% light attenuating gray screen to not improve the CR of the projector but to mitigate the faults of my room.

It “DLP” may never be perfect but low APL CR is only one of many qualities that make a projector good. I’m for now still a fan of them overall, and eager to see what they do next. None of it will be simple IMO.
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post #35 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Really? This screen shot is from a 3 chip 4K JVC projector. It doesn't look like a mess to me -



DLP contrast has gotten much worse. My old SIM2 Lumis had 6800:1 contrast back in 2009.
I dunno if I zoom in 4,000% on his eyes you can see the red is out of alignment!!!
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post #36 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gunlife View Post
I dunno if I zoom in 4,000% on his eyes you can see the red is out of alignment!!!
If you are doing that, you have too much time on your hands. Get back to work !
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post #37 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
I’m always amazed actually that this DLP technology was ever invented in the first place and made to work at all. I’m really amazed it was perfected as far as it has been and is able to sustain the billions of cycles over its long life.
I thought I had a stuck pixel on my w1070 after 20k hours of use, turned out to be a peice of glitter on the screen. Say no to glitter.
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post #38 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 04:46 PM
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I thought I had a stuck pixel on my w1070 after 20k hours of use, turned out to be a peice of glitter on the screen. Say no to glitter.
Haha, My first DLP was a Sharp XR10X XGA DLP. It had what they called a sealed light path and it hung in my dusty basement for years. I lost track of the hours but it was super bright and wasn’t known for long lamp life I was averaging 3-4k hours and I lost track of how many lamps I had in it. When I moved to this house I brought it along and it lasted about 6 months and died. I ordered a new projector and before I tossed the 10X I thought I would take it apart and take a look. To my surprise it was packed solid in dust. I took my shop 100PSI air hose and blew it all out and saw a red button and pushed it to hear a click. Plugged it in and it ran like the day I got it. I still have it on a shelf and loan it out from time to time. Not a single dust speck ever made it into the optics. Now I can’t say the same for the 1080p I’m running now and just the other day I noticed a dust spot on the screen. It bugs me a little so maybe I’ll see about cleaning it but not with an air hose.

The cycles on those mirrors is amazing.

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post #39 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Not a single dust speck ever made it into the optics.

The cycles on those mirrors is amazing.
Cant say the same for the w1070 but luckily at w.e focal length i needed it focused out all the dust on the dmd >< The current projectors seem to be very well sealed, an impressively uniform black image.

I wonder if the lifespan of the dmds has to do with the electrostatic attraction and the mirrors keeping alot of the heat away from less resilient materials.
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post #40 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’m amazed that you feel the current range of (non DLP) 4K projectors are a mess. I’ve demoed pretty much all of them in my pursuit of excellence but at an affordable level and at no point did I feel any of the differing tech had an advantage with resolution, at least when viewed at remotely normal viewing distances. Of course such things like viewing distance is a very personal thing and maybe you watch stuff on your 106” screen from 4ft away, I’ve tried getting closer than 9.5ft from my 100” but I just don’t like the experience so for me I doubt I will ever notice this difference you are clearly seeing.

I think even you would agree that given a choose you’d love your projector to have better blacks so clearly the desire is there, so why haven’t anyone came up with a solution?
There are now a number of laser HDR capable 1080P and WUXGA projectors available, these have very high output, high dynamic contrast, comparable sharpness to an e-shift 3LCD, and they use the higher contrast .65in DMD.

When Cine4home tested the TW9400 and the W5700:

http://cine4home.de/benq-w5700-vs-ep...nzimmerbeamer/

they found that the difference in black levels/contrast was not that great at 1140-1 versus 890-1, in favour of the Epson. However, one would expect a laser .65in DMD projector to also beat the W5700 and therefore perhaps the TW9400 as well.
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post #41 of 89 Old 01-23-2020, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Of course such things like viewing distance is a very personal thing and maybe you watch stuff on your 106” screen from 4ft away, I’ve tried getting closer than 9.5ft from my 100” but I just don’t like the experience so for me I doubt I will ever notice this difference you are clearly seeing.
I sit at around 0.9x screen width! Of course JVC/Sony projector can throw a great video picture, I've no problem with that!

As I use HTPC as my main source, as well as surfing the web on the big screen, Windows desktop sharpness is very important to me. All those 3-clippers just couldn't give me a acceptable pixel resolution in 4K.
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
How many tens of thousands of dollars do you have to spend on a projector?

Also: isn’t vantablack toxic? Or at least extremely dangerous if inhaled?

I'll just wait until the price comes down

As for the Vantablack, more research needs to be done.

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Vantablack, from what I understand, the CNTs are really short. I guess, in the meantime, one could always use Black 3.0.
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DLP contrast has gotten much worse. My old SIM2 Lumis had 6800:1 contrast back in 2009.

That model uses a 0.95 DLP chip
The W1070 uses a 0.65 DLP chip
The current batch of DLPs use the 0.47 chip

The smaller they keep making the chips, the harder it is for them to control the contrast at the chip level. I would imagine since the same amount of light is being focused an ever decreasing surface area of the DLP chip.
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post #44 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
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There are now a number of laser HDR capable 1080P and WUXGA projectors available, these have very high output, high dynamic contrast, comparable sharpness to an e-shift 3LCD, and they use the higher contrast .65in DMD.

When Cine4home tested the TW9400 and the W5700:

http://cine4home.de/benq-w5700-vs-ep...nzimmerbeamer/

they found that the difference in black levels/contrast was not that great at 1140-1 versus 890-1, in favour of the Epson. However, one would expect a laser .65in DMD projector to also beat the W5700 and therefore perhaps the TW9400 as well.
I assume this image isn't a comparison between the Epson and the BenQ because if it is then clearly one has superior blacks than the other and it isn't slight.

http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa.../08/Bild44.jpg

This isn't really a contest as to who has the best blacks it's more an acknowledgement that whilst DLP has many strengths black levels isn't one of them and after the tech has been about so long is it ever likely that things will improve or is it an issue with the design that ultimately limits what can be done?

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post #45 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

I’m sure black levels (actually light blocking ability) will continue to improve I don’t see it as an easy task.

When I have a projector that can easily do a 200” screen in brightness I like to use some of that brightness to make a 100” screen have a lower starting point for black and in my case I’m using a 50% light attenuating gray screen to not improve the CR of the projector but to mitigate the faults of my room.

It “DLP” may never be perfect but low APL CR is only one of many qualities that make a projector good. I’m for now still a fan of them overall, and eager to see what they do next. None of it will be simple IMO.
DLP is a 'mad scientist' technology, and I'm not sure it will change much. The mirrors are so tiny is probably the issue, when working with things that small it increases the costs enormously. All those machines that help build it have to be thrown out or re-calibrated or modified, etc... It's a hard sell for the dwindling market share that projectors are becoming. Back in the hay day of projectors, giant TV's didn't exist, or they were too bulky. Now most offices use flat panels as it's easier, some still use projectors though when they need portability and don't want a TV in the way, or for aesthetic reasons they can just roll it into the room and shoot onto the wall.

However, it's not easy to find another group of mad scientists to help push something like DLP forward, a lot of those guys moved onto other areas where the money was, like other tech unfortunately.

LCOS continues to get sharper and sharper, the new Native 4k LCOS are really sharp and close to an average or just below average DLP projector in sharpness. They still aren't as sharp as the sharpest of the sharp, though it's not JUST because of the 3-chip issue.

I've seen commerical 3 chip DLP projectors that are sharper than single chip, though they obviously used a more specialized alignment procedure than an LCOS would use. I'm assuming someone used robots to align it with lasers or something, but keep in mind these commerical 3 chips I saw were likely $200,000 projectors. So that would allow for a lot more labor involved in the optics and alignment procedures.
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post #46 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I assume this image isn't a comparison between the Epson and the BenQ because if it is then clearly one has superior blacks than the other and it isn't slight.

http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa.../08/Bild44.jpg

This isn't really a contest as to who has the best blacks it's more an acknowledgement that whilst DLP has many strengths black levels isn't one of them and after the tech has been about so long is it ever likely that things will improve or is it an issue with the design that ultimately limits what can be done?
No it is not a comparative image between the TW9400 and W5700. Cineforhome testing shows that the black levels between them are comparable using the DI and/or DB. Theoretically, if we took a laser DLP and added a DI then dynamic contrast would improve considerably, but laser output modulation can achieve similar results.
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post #47 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 01:01 PM
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Will DLP ever get decent black levels?

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It’s hard to believe that the likes of Optoma, BenQ etc who all solely using DLP technology aren’t interested in the enthusiast who takes their home theatre hobby to the extreme and devotes a room fully kitted out into a true bat cave?


BenQ’s HT9060 received the best projector over $3000 award from Secrets who called it “in many ways the best projector I’ve ever reviewed.”

https://hometheaterhifi.com/features...f-awards-2019/

I shouldn’t have to mention that Secret’s reviews some pretty nice stuff.

DLP has a very different image to LCOS and 3LCD and you tend to focus on the areas where it underperforms the competition. If those are the things you care most about: fair. But don’t assume everyone places the same value on the same things you do.

Again I will say, at their respective price points, DLPs typically— not always— but typically represent the value proposition. On the lower price points DLP actually outperforms 3LCD in contrast. It’s not until you get over $2000 that separation really starts and 3LCD pulls ahead. And then once you get to LCos well— the story is pretty much over for both DLP and 3LCD.

It might seem shocking to a lot of people here on the forum but some people don’t place contrast above ALL things. Even a lot of our local JVC fans don’t value contrast above all else— how could they? They would just buy an OLED if contrast and blacks were paramount to all else. Buying and being satisfied with any product requires you to balance the pros and cons carefully. For a lot of folks: a DLP projector checks those boxes.

And with that I’m out. If not already this thread is going to travel a well worn path and those who have been kicking around here a bit know that this path leads to nowhere. Haha. But I think the question is a good one. Just not one that you’ll find the answer you’re looking for. If you were even looking for an answer at all.

I think coder summed this up pretty well. I think if DLP were capable of better contrast/blacks we would have seen it by now. Obviously, solid state light sources might improve some things but we’re still a ways off from that being relevant to this sub $3K forum.

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post #48 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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^Actually I consider contrast and blacks important but there are numerous part that make up a wonderful image. What I was trying to ask was knowing everything I do about DLPs if they could nail black levels they would probably be the best projector available but as you said not everyone views things identically which is why we have DLP, LCD and LCoS all fighting in the same market.

For me personally I am very happy with the kind of blacks my Epson delivers, it might not be as good as JVC have to offer but in my opinion the blacks it produces are believable. Now if you are telling me there’s a DLP out there with similar levels of blacks then I seriously think I need to check them out.
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post #49 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
is it ever likely that things will improve or is it an issue with the design that ultimately limits what can be done?
The Zeiss Velvet 10-15 years ago was what, a couple million? 10 years later the Eclipse is a couple hundred thousand, give it another 10 years xD

Really we have alot of different technologies available to us that provide amazing video quality at affordable prices and fit different usages. LCOS, DLP, QLED, OLED, even just budget VA panels are impressive for the size, price and picture. Im not that old... but Im old enough to have had spent years with vhs and 15" tv/vcr combos, so I can really appreciate that you can buy a 2160p 42" tv for $200.

If and when 2chip or 2 tir prism rgb laser dlp hits affordable prices it would completely dominate the projection market, how could it not? best contrast best color best pixel performance, the only marketing variable would be price and power consumption. At that point it could start impacting emissive display sales as content actually mastered at bt2020 can only be rendered by rgb laser. Think about it, you only need 500w to produce 300 nits on a 100" 1.0 gain screen with 100% color brightness and a native bt2020 gamut. That's insane.

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Now if you are telling me there’s a DLP out there with similar levels of blacks then I seriously think I need to check them out.
You wanna talk about high contrast dlp, this Mico 40s black level looks like 15k dynamic on/off and 10k at 1%, and with the color ability it is a very high contrast machine. The dynamic dimming is almost imperceptible, no pumping, no stepping, no flashing/shifting, little to no clipping, the full led shut off is effective for certain transitions, less so for others that dance in and out of full black and low low apl. Red hits bt2020, greens between p3 and rec2020. Color rendering is perfect, motion is perfect, sharpness and detail are perfect, low level detail and especially with fast motion, uniformity is perfect, mid/high apl contrast is perfect hell low apl is excellent except for black being pure black, stunning stunning picture, dimensional and defined, the light engine just enables perfect video rendering, its astounding. And very bright even at ~600 lumens, too bright on my 92" .7-.8 gain screen for sdr(having to turn contrast down quite a bit at the moment) a very nice brightness in the native gamut for hdr though). Only pulls 100-250w and doesnt dump a bunch of heat into the room.

Of course theres always a caution with buying old heavy equipment. But being that it was recently serviced and I live 45min north of sim2 in fl I felt comfortable. Plus the closest dolby vision theater to me is 5min from sim2 if I have to go down there. ;]

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
LCOS continues to get sharper and sharper, the new Native 4k LCOS are really sharp and close to an average or just below average DLP projector in sharpness. They still aren't as sharp as the sharpest of the sharp, though it's not JUST because of the 3-chip issue.
Its not just sharpness though, theres pixel level performance that no other technology can replicate. D-ila is very impressive for liquid crystal, being digitally driven inorganic and refreshed at 96-120hz, but you still have a drastically slower response time, velocity overshoots, etc. Oled simply cant be used in projection and even then still suffers from overshooting despite a much faster response time.

And even sharpness isnt just a matter of resolution and convergence, pixel response, mtf(grayscale/gamma), ansi contrast(haloing/highlights), color depth/solarizations, pixel fill(goes to lcos), all contribute to how sharp the image is perceived to be. An emissive lcd panel has a very high ansi contrast but the second things start moving sharpness smears.

If Im incorrect on dilas low level fast motion performance I would appreciate being corrected, they have processing compensation(color signal difference enhancer), but I havent heard of any lcd imager overcoming this yet(overshoots, as well as overall pixel response over 2-3ms).

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post #50 of 89 Old 01-24-2020, 03:15 PM
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^Actually I consider contrast and blacks important but there are numerous part that make up a wonderful image. What I was trying to ask was knowing everything I do about DLPs if they could nail black levels they would probably be the best projector available but as you said not everyone views things identically which is why we have DLP, LCD and LCoS all fighting in the same market.



For me personally I am very happy with the kind of blacks my Epson delivers, it might not be as good as JVC have to offer but in my opinion the blacks it produces are believable. Now if you are telling me there’s a DLP out there with similar levels of blacks then I seriously think I need to check them out.


You have the 5050ub right?

I doubt even the old .95” models could come close. The Epson 5050ub sits at a sweet spot in the market. It’s more expensive than the lower end stuff but offers an appreciably better image. Meanwhile it can’t quite match up with the native 4K models but it is really good in enough areas and it costs significantly LESS. They are straddling that line and seem to have that price point almost to themselves.

Besides the HT5550 and the JVC UH1, I don’t know of really any DLPs that even attempt to compete with the Epson UB. Maybe some solid state models but, again, that’s a different ball of wax. In my mind the 5050ub is sort of the jumping off point to more expensive gear.

But I don’t think people realize how different the market is below $2000. Yes the Sony 45ES is still kicking around and it’s fantastic for the price but it’s quickly being overshadowed by 4K fare. And in the $2K and less market none of those options can claim ultra high contrast. The Epson 4010, BenQ HT3550, Optoma UHD60– all have contrast/black I would call good— Not great. Meanwhile, some budget 1080p models (like the Ht2050a) come AWFULLY damn close for way less. So I DO think price point plays an important role. Wonder what would happen if Sony announced a 4K replacement for the 45ES at $2k?
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post #51 of 89 Old 01-25-2020, 06:15 PM
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I think this is pretty accurate for the Sim2 Mico projectors, based on various measurements I could find. By 1.5-2% apl the contrast is very similar to dynamic iris lcos. The 4-8% contrast performance really shows in "brighter" scenes and it looks very much like an emissive display it's very impressive, and in those scenes the projectors was only pulling 180-190w of max 270w confirming the dynamic dimming is effective at higher apl much like with the hdr duo(id imagine the lumis looks very similar to the duos plot)
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post #52 of 89 Old 01-27-2020, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Li On View Post
Sorry, I should quote this " it's just comparatively inferior. You can still have a great picture... All XPR dlp projectors had 0 appeal to me because of it though"!



IMO XPR DLP (especially the 0.47" version with H/V pixel shift) is the only choice for a real 4K resolution picture (together with a good lens). My pixel sharp 4K picture in 106" is unbelievable! 4K on a 3-clip projector is just a mess!



Yes, XPR DLP has poor black level. But overall, it's still the current best choice IMO! If in the future, the black level can match LCOS/SXRD, then all other projection technology will go out of business! That's why we can't have it all!



Thanks!
Hi! Have you taken any screenshots of different 4K test patterns with your projector?(Masciola for example) I saw couple pics in the dlp jvc thread, but so far I haven't seen any XPR's revealing proper 4k detail. All patterns with black/white 1 pixel detail will only show single gray color. I would like to see more examples.

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JVC DLA-RS500
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Hi! Have you taken any screenshots of different 4K test patterns with your projector?(Masciola for example) I saw couple pics in the dlp jvc thread, but so far I haven't seen any XPR's revealing proper 4k detail. All patterns with black/white 1 pixel detail will only show single gray color. I would like to see more examples.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

Thanks to
https://rehders.de/category/journali...e/projektoren/

We have a series of very similar high-res images showing the same scene on various projectors and projector display technologies:

BenQ X12000 (HT9050)
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

Viewsonic PK-747-4K
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

JVC DLA-X7900
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...t-MBR_6133.jpg

Sony VPL-VW270
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...g-Detail-1.jpg

JVC DLA-N7
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

Optoma UHD300X
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

BenQ TK800
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

Acer H6810:
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...B.-Rehders.jpg

BenQ W1050 (1080P)
https://rehders.de/wp-content/upload...rg_MBR5384.jpg

(open each link in a new tab for full resolution)

If you go to the individual test reports, he has full HD and UHD checker-board test patterns for many of the 4K projectors, but I think the real world photo is more useful for resolution comparisons.
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post #54 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 06:38 AM
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I actually do know better and do care. I just know what I’m getting and how it best applies to what I need. That and I understand the bargain these budget machines offer. Most humans instantaneous CR ability is something like 500:1 and what we are really talking about trying to make greater CR out of low APL and the only way CR can be made is by making the low end lower as there isn’t much of a high end to start with. People with these projectors normally don’t have rooms good enough to do it even if they had the best technology out there.

I see it all the time here someone buying a stellar projector for mega-bucks and sticking it in a normal living room and feeling good thinking he has a 500,000:1 machine.
I Am sort of in the same boat... after owning a number of DLP's starting with the legendary infocus X1 I currently am replacing my6th DLP projector (optoma 131x) with a used JVC dla-x90 I found on ebay for 750 bucks shipped... I have been researching ALR screens for days since I need something flexible (motorized screen to come down over the led tv on the wall). If it were up to me I'd just focus efforts into making my room more void of stray light and reflections as its already pretty dark as ive catered to improving the projector experience over the years. But my girlfriend likes to have a light on in the room especially if we happen to be eating in front of the projector which sometimes happens. I really want better blacks and realize im going from like 2500 lumens to 1300 (much less in reality) the focus on my optoma sucked as the model I had shipped with defective lenses so I swapped the lens with one from an hd20 (or hd27?) and while that improved it, I now see the optics are cheap plastic on these budget optomas and really want something better. I dont have a showroom that I know of nearby and have never seen a really high end projector in use and sort of didnt want to up till know because well ignorance is bliss right?


Off topic
But this constant desire to upgrade is just as prominent on regular flat screens. I repair tvs as a hobby and every year around Christmas time and before super bowl I know I can go to my local recycling drop off center and theres a good chance some of the tvs sitting there to be scrapped have nothing wrong with them.. In fact I just picked up a 55" samsung led smart tv super bowl week (that didnt need repair) that still has the previous owners amazon prime login entered (happens quite often as the 55" sony xbr 4k I got from the dump 2 years ago also has the previous owners netflix account still active which I dont use to be honest since I have a firestick plugged in) now that I have that amazing picture from the sony in my beroom, I'm reminded of how uneventful the cheap 65" on my living room wall is.. hence the quest for a better projector picture. and my quest to keep the best black performance from it has led me down the rabbit hole of paying as much if not more for an ALR screen like the one I found on aliexpress. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...88%233325%2311

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post #55 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post
I Am sort of in the same boat... after owning a number of DLP's starting with the legendary infocus X1 I currently am replacing my6th DLP projector (optoma 131x) with a used JVC dla-x90 I found on ebay for 750 bucks shipped... I have been researching ALR screens for days since I need something flexible (motorized screen to come down over the led tv on the wall). If it were up to me I'd just focus efforts into making my room more void of stray light and reflections as its already pretty dark as ive catered to improving the projector experience over the years. But my girlfriend likes to have a light on in the room especially if we happen to be eating in front of the projector which sometimes happens. I really want better blacks and realize im going from like 2500 lumens to 1300 (much less in reality) the focus on my optoma sucked as the model I had shipped with defective lenses so I swapped the lens with one from an hd20 (or hd27?) and while that improved it, I now see the optics are cheap plastic on these budget optomas and really want something better. I dont have a showroom that I know of nearby and have never seen a really high end projector in use and sort of didnt want to up till know because well ignorance is bliss right?


Off topic
But this constant desire to upgrade is just as prominent on regular flat screens. I repair tvs as a hobby and every year around Christmas time and before super bowl I know I can go to my local recycling drop off center and theres a good chance some of the tvs sitting there to be scrapped have nothing wrong with them.. In fact I just picked up a 55" samsung led smart tv super bowl week (that didnt need repair) that still has the previous owners amazon prime login entered (happens quite often as the 55" sony xbr 4k I got from the dump 2 years ago also has the previous owners netflix account still active which I dont use to be honest since I have a firestick plugged in) now that I have that amazing picture from the sony in my beroom, I'm reminded of how uneventful the cheap 65" on my living room wall is.. hence the quest for a better projector picture. and my quest to keep the best black performance from it has led me down the rabbit hole of paying as much if not more for an ALR screen like the one I found on aliexpress. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...88%233325%2311
We used to call it paralysis by annalists.

It is very alive and well in all discussions of CR and black levels in projection.

I had the chance to go see Ford vs. Ferrari about a month ago and I used to frequent commercial theaters all the time but haven’t been in one for at least a year as it is so much better at home in so many ways. The showing was in a decent Cineplex but even the good ones have lost all the basic presentation skills over the years and when the movie started I thought here we go. There was no top and bottom masking and the gray bars were telling my brain just what black was. The movies overall is very bright and perceived contrast was pretty good and the movie was entertaining and soon forgot to be a presentation snob and just enjoy a good movie. The theater was pretty full and without a doubt I was the only one in there that cared in the least about black levels or anything else concerning PQ. Everyone else just enjoyed the movie and I’m sure almost everyone there has a flat panel TV at home with much darker blacks but it hasn’t occurred to them to make a mental comparison.

The normal ALR screens won’t help with light coming from where you and your lady are sitting and eating while watching. The trick there is to give yourselves a task light source that shines light where you need it and not at the screen. That and a dark treated room and maybe even a simple neutral gray screen if you have enough lumens to support a gray screen.

You pointed out the comparison well. Do you want 2500 lumens and lower native CR or 1000 lumens and greater native CR. The two then need to be looked at as the first one maybe having a .3 gain gray screen and the second a 1.0 white screen. Then factor in the imperfect nature of your room.

Bud
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post #56 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:12 AM
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What are people finding lacking in their DLP projectors image quality that they are blaming on contrast being too low?

The image on my second hand ProjectionDesign F30 1080 VizSim made in September 2008 is jaw dropping at least to me. Leaving no desire to upgrade and it's 13 years out of date DLP the F30 was first manufactured in February 2007. But, I do not see how the image could look any better, when it looks three dimensional and real like a open window, its stunning. I did however need to use the service menu to slightly tweak the image for best results despite the many user adjustable calibration settings. It uses a RGBYCM colorwheel and the service menu I think enables the amount different segments are used to be tweaked. Why when lamps color output can change with age the ability to do so is not in the user menus I have no idea.

Due to a adjustable non dynamic fixed iris it claims about 1,200:1 native on/off contrast at 4,100 ANSI lumen to 7,500:1 native on/off contrast at about 800 ANSI lumen. And I prefer having a brighter image over a less bright image. Despite the trade off in real contrast brighter looks higher contrast to my eyes/brain. I also found adjusting the color/greyscale had a big effect on perceived contrast as did the small tweak in the service menu. Actually improving contrast itself by reducing the iris had a less noticeable effect and was counter productive if image brightness dropped too much. So if the projector breaks higher contrast would not be high on my wish list.

In theory a modern projector with specs including comparable ANSI lumen output with orders of magnitude higher contrast, 4K resolution and the wider 4K colour gamut, should look far better. But in practice I fear there is far more to image quality than the specs reveal and far more to perceived contrast than actual contrast. At least that is what I tell myself having never played with a up to date modern DLP projector. Maybe I am deluding myself, but at least I am delighted with my cheap second hand out of date DLP projector.

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post #57 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:47 AM
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BenQ’s HT9060 received the best projector over $3000 award from Secrets who called it “in many ways the best projector I’ve ever reviewed.”

https://hometheaterhifi.com/features...f-awards-2019/

I shouldn’t have to mention that Secret’s reviews some pretty nice stuff.
Wow. That review makes me want to hold out and save up for a 9060 refurb! I've been looking at the HT5550 but I'm currently throwing 125" diagonal scope screen (zoom method) with a 1.0 gain from ~16' away, and I'm not sure if the brightness would keep me happy.

I've had a BenQ w7500 for 4 years now (and a w6000 before that!) and I love the brightness, sharpness and motion handling. I do game a lot (XBox One X), and watch a lot of action movies with fast motion (including buying any 3D blurays I can still get my hands on) and I don't like the motion smear I see on certain LCD displays/projectors.

I've never seen a JVC LCoS in action, but the black level performance (as I've improved the light treatments in my room) has always been intriguing to me. And I've been itching to move to 4K as I have a relatively close viewing distance of ~10.5' from my nearly 10' wide screen.

I don't know how much better the blacks would have to be on my w7500 for me to be 100% happy, but I'm not sure I want to give up anything that I've got for performance currently just to jump to 4K.

The DLP/LCD/LCoS saga continues!
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post #58 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post
I Am sort of in the same boat... after owning a number of DLP's starting with the legendary infocus X1 I currently am replacing my6th DLP projector (optoma 131x) with a used JVC dla-x90 I found on ebay for 750 bucks shipped... I have been researching ALR screens for days since I need something flexible (motorized screen to come down over the led tv on the wall). If it were up to me I'd just focus efforts into making my room more void of stray light and reflections as its already pretty dark as ive catered to improving the projector experience over the years. But my girlfriend likes to have a light on in the room especially if we happen to be eating in front of the projector which sometimes happens. I really want better blacks and realize im going from like 2500 lumens to 1300 (much less in reality) the focus on my optoma sucked as the model I had shipped with defective lenses so I swapped the lens with one from an hd20 (or hd27?) and while that improved it, I now see the optics are cheap plastic on these budget optomas and really want something better. I dont have a showroom that I know of nearby and have never seen a really high end projector in use and sort of didnt want to up till know because well ignorance is bliss right?


Off topic
But this constant desire to upgrade is just as prominent on regular flat screens. I repair tvs as a hobby and every year around Christmas time and before super bowl I know I can go to my local recycling drop off center and theres a good chance some of the tvs sitting there to be scrapped have nothing wrong with them.. In fact I just picked up a 55" samsung led smart tv super bowl week (that didnt need repair) that still has the previous owners amazon prime login entered (happens quite often as the 55" sony xbr 4k I got from the dump 2 years ago also has the previous owners netflix account still active which I dont use to be honest since I have a firestick plugged in) now that I have that amazing picture from the sony in my beroom, I'm reminded of how uneventful the cheap 65" on my living room wall is.. hence the quest for a better projector picture. and my quest to keep the best black performance from it has led me down the rabbit hole of paying as much if not more for an ALR screen like the one I found on aliexpress. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...88%233325%2311
We used to call it paralysis by annalists.

It is very alive and well in all discussions of CR and black levels in projection.

I had the chance to go see Ford vs. Ferrari about a month ago and I used to frequent commercial theaters all the time but haven&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t been in one for at least a year as it is so much better at home in so many ways. The showing was in a decent Cineplex but even the good ones have lost all the basic presentation skills over the years and when the movie started I thought here we go. There was no top and bottom masking and the gray bars were telling my brain just what black was. The movies overall is very bright and perceived contrast was pretty good and the movie was entertaining and soon forgot to be a presentation snob and just enjoy a good movie. The theater was pretty full and without a doubt I was the only one in there that cared in the least about black levels or anything else concerning PQ. Everyone else just enjoyed the movie and I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m sure almost everyone there has a flat panel TV at home with much darker blacks but it hasn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t occurred to them to make a mental comparison.

The normal ALR screens won&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t help with light coming from where you and your lady are sitting and eating while watching. The trick there is to give yourselves a task light source that shines light where you need it and not at the screen. That and a dark treated room and maybe even a simple neutral gray screen if you have enough lumens to support a gray screen.

You pointed out the comparison well. Do you want 2500 lumens and lower native CR or 1000 lumens and greater native CR. The two then need to be looked at as the first one maybe having a .3 gain gray screen and the second a 1.0 white screen. Then factor in the imperfect nature of your room. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
to be fair the lighting I'm speaking of is directional track lighting on the ceiling I put in to shine towards the seating area and does a decent job of avoiding the screen but yes im sure some of it will reflect back towards it. Still I was hoping the gray nature of the material would help with this over the plain white screen I have now.
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post #59 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
What are people finding lacking in their DLP projectors image quality that they are blaming on contrast being too low?

The image on my second hand ProjectionDesign F30 1080 VizSim made in September 2008 is jaw dropping at least to me. Leaving no desire to upgrade and it's 13 years out of date DLP the F30 was first manufactured in February 2007. But, I do not see how the image could look any better, when it looks three dimensional and real like a open window, its stunning. I did however need to use the service menu to slightly tweak the image for best results despite the many user adjustable calibration settings. It uses a RGBYCM colorwheel and the service menu I think enables the amount different segments are used to be tweaked. Why when lamps color output can change with age the ability to do so is not in the user menus I have no idea.

Due to a adjustable non dynamic fixed iris it claims about 1,200:1 native on/off contrast at 4,100 ANSI lumen to 7,500:1 native on/off contrast at about 800 ANSI lumen. And I prefer having a brighter image over a less bright image. Despite the trade off in real contrast brighter looks higher contrast to my eyes/brain. I also found adjusting the color/greyscale had a big effect on perceived contrast as did the small tweak in the service menu. Actually improving contrast itself by reducing the iris had a less noticeable effect and was counter productive if image brightness dropped too much. So if the projector breaks higher contrast would not be high on my wish list.

In theory a modern projector with specs including comparable ANSI lumen output with orders of magnitude higher contrast, 4K resolution and the wider 4K colour gamut, should look far better. But in practice I fear there is far more to image quality than the specs reveal and far more to perceived contrast than actual contrast. At least that is what I tell myself having never played with a up to date modern DLP projector. Maybe I am deluding myself, but at least I am delighted with my cheap second hand out of date DLP projector.
my advice is stay away from viewing any newer projectors in action if your happy. I was very happy with my first projector until I was bored on a lunch break one day and stumbled into a high end electronics store... big mistake. At least the quickly dropping resale value of these can work in your favor when you do want to upgrade... the DLA-x90 jvc I just bought for $750 was 11-12 grand the same year I bought my Optima 131x for about the same amount of money new($800).. Either way It has to be a big improvement over what I have. I just hope the lack of brightness is not something I'll be disappointed in or at least is something I can correct with a high gain screen.
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post #60 of 89 Old 02-14-2020, 09:56 AM
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https://www.tvspecialists.com/jvc-dla-nx7-vs-tvs-pro-theo-z65-with-kris-deering-part-ii/

This a good look at a current udh 4k. I have to day the blacks look decent to me.
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