Will DLP ever get decent black levels? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 43Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 90 Old 02-14-2020, 09:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 8,519
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2470 Post(s)
Liked: 1330
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
What are people finding lacking in their DLP projectors image quality that they are blaming on contrast being too low?

The image on my second hand ProjectionDesign F30 1080 VizSim made in September 2008 is jaw dropping at least to me. Leaving no desire to upgrade and it's 13 years out of date DLP the F30 was first manufactured in February 2007. But, I do not see how the image could look any better, when it looks three dimensional and real like a open window, its stunning. I did however need to use the service menu to slightly tweak the image for best results despite the many user adjustable calibration settings. It uses a RGBYCM colorwheel and the service menu I think enables the amount different segments are used to be tweaked. Why when lamps color output can change with age the ability to do so is not in the user menus I have no idea.

Due to a adjustable non dynamic fixed iris it claims about 1,200:1 native on/off contrast at 4,100 ANSI lumen to 7,500:1 native on/off contrast at about 800 ANSI lumen. And I prefer having a brighter image over a less bright image. Despite the trade off in real contrast brighter looks higher contrast to my eyes/brain. I also found adjusting the color/greyscale had a big effect on perceived contrast as did the small tweak in the service menu. Actually improving contrast itself by reducing the iris had a less noticeable effect and was counter productive if image brightness dropped too much. So if the projector breaks higher contrast would not be high on my wish list.

In theory a modern projector with specs including comparable ANSI lumen output with orders of magnitude higher contrast, 4K resolution and the wider 4K colour gamut, should look far better. But in practice I fear there is far more to image quality than the specs reveal and far more to perceived contrast than actual contrast. At least that is what I tell myself having never played with a up to date modern DLP projector. Maybe I am deluding myself, but at least I am delighted with my cheap second hand out of date DLP projector.
First off good to see you around.

I have been saying much the same for the last few years I now have a 1080p RGBRGB dark chip 3 (.65”) and find it lacking very little. I have had RGBCYW and they mostly get an unfair rap IMO also. So many attempts were made at RGB,XYZ color wheels using secondary color filters and also white in so many different configurations and size of sectors. Some much better than others and I still feel there hasn’t been a perfect solution yet.

4k DLP came along using a smaller 1080p chip and wobbling it to make 4 pixels out of one and then the burden of HDR and what to do with that as there isn’t enough brightness so they came up with this tone mapping to take its place and that uses filters that rob brightness and the end result is loss in CR.

I don’t really understand it all, but like you I’m looking at a great image without all that and blissful in not knowing what I’m missing yet. I have seen 100s of 4k HRD flat panel TVs and they look amazing but I’m in no way enjoying my much more immersive projected image any less after seeing them. Actually I wouldn’t enjoy a flat panel image that large and immersive if I could have it.

For me it all goes back to what is film-like at least in terms of dark room projection brightness.

Bud
bud16415 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 90 Old 02-14-2020, 10:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post
my advice is stay away from viewing any newer projectors in action if your happy. I was very happy with my first projector until I was bored on a lunch break one day and stumbled into a high end electronics store... big mistake. At least the quickly dropping resale value of these can work in your favor when you do want to upgrade... the DLA-x90 jvc I just bought for $750 was 11-12 grand the same year I bought my Optima 131x for about the same amount of money new($800).. Either way It has to be a big improvement over what I have. I just hope the lack of brightness is not something I'll be disappointed in or at least is something I can correct with a high gain screen.
The first projector I bought was sometime ago. If my memory is correct it was a second hand ASK A10+ 2,000 ANSI lumen 300:1 contrast XGA resolution LCD. Over the years I upgraded always buying second hand, next was a Mitsubishi LCD, then a Mitsubishi DLP, then a Projectiondesign F3, then a Projectiondesign F30 wuxga VizSim and as it was cheaper than buying lamps for that projector a barley used Projectiondesign F30 1080 VizSim replaced it. My quest for a projector so good I do not desire better ended with the Projectiondesign F30 VizSim.

If I upgrade in the future it will be due to a desire to have a laser based projector rather than a lamp based projector. The convenience of the light source being rated to last 20,000+ hours, instant on/off with no stress to the light source, and more efficient less electricity and less heat output and cooling fans. The caveat being I would want picture quality at least as good as I currently enjoy.

As far as DLP projectors go I think they hit a wall in regard to picture quality. The replacement model to my F30 the F32 VizSim claimed improved picture quality through using VIDI lamp technology with a RGBRGB colorwheel. It was first manufactured in February 2008 but did not cease production until May 2018. And the current equivalent 1080 model does not boast any improvement to picture quality. So the improvements are going 4K with its wider colour gamut and with going to laser light source.

Given the lack of improvements in picture quality through better DLP projector design in the last 12 years I doubt DLP is trying to compete with Lcos in terms of innovation.
dovercat is online now  
post #63 of 90 Old 02-14-2020, 11:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 749 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Given the lack of improvements in picture quality through better DLP projector design in the last 12 years I doubt DLP is trying to compete with Lcos in terms of innovation.
RGB solid state dlp is improved over your F30. The color performance alone compared to the color wheels, an expanded gamut ranging from p3 to bt2020, improved color depth, reduced solarizations, 100% color brightness at higher light output. Contrast can be much improved with dlp but its expensive as its through light path/optics improvements and gamma compensated dynamic lamp dimming, but can range from 10k to 30k with minimal to no perceived artifacts. All these things improve perceived sharpness as well. Summit video performance is currently DLP, I dont think microled can be acoustically transparent yet=/
bdht is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 90 Old 02-14-2020, 02:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
RGB solid state dlp is improved over your F30. The color performance alone compared to the color wheels, an expanded gamut ranging from p3 to bt2020, improved color depth, reduced solarizations, 100% color brightness at higher light output. Contrast can be much improved with dlp but its expensive as its through light path/optics improvements and gamma compensated dynamic lamp dimming, but can range from 10k to 30k with minimal to no perceived artifacts. All these things improve perceived sharpness as well. Summit video performance is currently DLP, I dont think microled can be acoustically transparent yet=/
What it really lacks is 4K with its higher resolution and larger color gamut and higher brightness dynamic range than Bluray. But to benefit from a projector offering that I would need to upgrade my source material as well as the projector. As currently I watch Blurays and DVDs on it.

Laser projectors are obviously far superior to lamp based projectors in terms of the light source being efficient at D65 rather than trading brightness to get to D65, and far better at producing a wider color gamut without needing to trade brightness, and far better at brightening and dimming for increased sequential contrast. And they last far longer, retain their brightness, use less electricity and require less cooling. Lasers are far better suited to projectors than UHP lamps.

The color reproduction of the F30 is however good enough that the same projector was marketed as Cineo30 to the TV and film post production market as a low cost option instead of using a 3 chip projector. There was also a Cineo30 DCI version for digital cinema post production and small screen cinema shows.

In its day the whole point of the F30 using two 300 Watt lamps was more brightness and the whole point of it using RGBYCM colorwheels was improved color brightness at higher light output. While a RGBYCM colorwheel has or at least gives the option of a wider color gamut than REC709 with less loss of brightness than using a RGBRGB colorwheel. As for bit depth it is capable of displaying 10 bits per color. There is no solarization. And despite its brightness I see not DLP rainbow effect.

What the F30 lacks as far as lamp based projectors goes is Philips VIDI or Osram Unishape where the lamp power is synced to the colorwheel segments enabling increasing red and decreasing green for more D65 light output for a given lamp Wattage. And it lacks Dynamic Black where lamp power or a iris is synced to the frame content and gamma adjusted to enable higher sequential contrast without causing visible light pumping. So yeah it lacks the sequential contrast of more modern projectors.

As far as native contrast goes the F30 uses a 1080 Darkchip3 0.95" chip with mirror tilt of 12 degrees which TI stock design gives >2300:1. Not a modern consumer projector 4K 0.66" or 4K 0.47" with mirror tilt of 17 degrees. Its light path to the DLP chip is good as there appears to be no overfill of the DLP chip, and there is a adjustable iris in the middle of the projector lens that can be adjusted from F2.1 to F6.5 for about 1,200:1 at 4,100 ANSI lumen to 7,500:1 at about 800 ANSI lumen. What probably limits its native contrast is the mirror tilt being 12 degrees and I think it is a TIR design as it has a lot of vertical and horizontal lens shift.

As far as image sharpness goes using a larger DLP chip helps and the EN13 lens specification is 38 lp/mm MTF 60% min corner 50% min. Lateral color 450-650nm < 7 micron 440-670nm < 9 micron. Optical distortion within 0.54% at wide position at 3mtrs projection distance, within 0.11% at tele position at 3mtrs projection distance. There is no visible chromatic aberration and the lens focus across the screen looks perfect and it is razor sharp. If it is not perfect focus across the screen due to manhandling by the lens then it can be adjusted using allen keys although the end user is not supposed to need to instructions for doing so were including in the manual for a later version of the projector.
dovercat is online now  
post #65 of 90 Old 02-14-2020, 08:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 749 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Have you seen a native gamut graph of those models? I was never able to find one, I think I remembered reading that the dci models had a 120% ntsc gamut. I see the vizsim is rgbcym and the dci is rgbrgbg.

I was considering that line of projectors before delving into the .95 led models, but was concerned about the power draw, heat output, fan noise, and short bulb life. But thats great to hear how well they perform you hear that from anyone who uses one. The lens in those pd/barco models though I think is nicer then the lens in the sim2, I believe you when you say 0 CA I bet that looks magnificent. Im not sensitive to rbe either and thats good about the solarizations, I wasnt sure to what extent the solid state models differ to the color wheel models, I have a w1070 and an mvision260 and in both cases the color, detail, and motion were better with the led models, just at rec709 as well, low level detail, no banding/posterization, really excellent. But the lens really does make a huge difference.

Another benefit of the single chip with no wheel is the dmd doesnt turn off between wheel segments, reducing flicker. Very nice resolved, solid, and stable picture.

The cooling is interesting as they typically need much more capable cooling but in dispersing heat from a small area as opposed to using high cfm fans.
bdht is offline  
post #66 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 07:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Have you seen a native gamut graph of those models? I was never able to find one, I think I remembered reading that the dci models had a 120% ntsc gamut. I see the vizsim is rgbcym and the dci is rgbrgbg.

I was considering that line of projectors before delving into the .95 led models, but was concerned about the power draw, heat output, fan noise, and short bulb life. But thats great to hear how well they perform you hear that from anyone who uses one. The lens in those pd/barco models though I think is nicer then the lens in the sim2, I believe you when you say 0 CA I bet that looks magnificent. Im not sensitive to rbe either and thats good about the solarizations, I wasnt sure to what extent the solid state models differ to the color wheel models, I have a w1070 and an mvision260 and in both cases the color, detail, and motion were better with the led models, just at rec709 as well, low level detail, no banding/posterization, really excellent. But the lens really does make a huge difference.

Another benefit of the single chip with no wheel is the dmd doesnt turn off between wheel segments, reducing flicker. Very nice resolved, solid, and stable picture.

The cooling is interesting as they typically need much more capable cooling but in dispersing heat from a small area as opposed to using high cfm fans.
I have not seen a native color gamut graph for the F30 VizSim RGBYCM. But it was designed to be future proof with support compatibility for 12-bit DeepColor and extended xvYCC gamut. Although it is only capable of displaying 10-bit per color and I do not know how much of the xvYCC gamut it covers.

Deep Color with xvYCC color space was originally intended to be released on the new format "mastered in 4K bluray discs". These discs would give superior color on new compatible bluray players and displays, while remaining backward compatible playing with normal bluray quality on older non compatible bluray players and displays. The format was not very successful as the discs generally only contained the film with no extras.

I see no flicker with the F30 VizSim. The image is easier on my eyes than my previous DLP projectors. I think image stability might be due to the dual colorwheels or the quality of light integration in the light path or image uniformity. RGBYCM colorwheels also in theory trigger less DLP rainbow effect than RGBRGB colorwheels.

The downside to using two lamps besides the cost in lamps and electricity is the cooling. In the UK like most I do not have air conditioning and it is pretty unusable in hot weather without risking fainting, while in winter there is no need to have the central heating on if the projector is going. ProjectionDesign did sell an environmental exhaust kit for the projector but I do not fancy putting a hole in the ceiling for the exhaust pipe.

Cooling fan noise is audible but it does not bother me as it is low pitch. However fan noise does seem to have been an issue for some as projectiondesign replaced the fans they were using at some point and then repeatedly fiddled about with fan speed and fan monitoring in software upgrades. Annoyingly they decided to have the main fan running continuously at low speed even when the projector was off so to turn the fan off you have to unplug the projector or in the UK switch the power socket off. The F30's replacement the F32 boasted new intelligent active cooling for less fan noise as a selling point.
dovercat is online now  
post #67 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 10:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 8,519
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2470 Post(s)
Liked: 1330
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
I have not seen a native color gamut graph for the F30 VizSim RGBYCM. But it was designed to be future proof with support compatibility for 12-bit DeepColor and extended xvYCC gamut. Although it is only capable of displaying 10-bit per color and I do not know how much of the xvYCC gamut it covers.

Deep Color with xvYCC color space was originally intended to be released on the new format "mastered in 4K bluray discs". These discs would give superior color on new compatible bluray players and displays, while remaining backward compatible playing with normal bluray quality on older non compatible bluray players and displays. The format was not very successful as the discs generally only contained the film with no extras.
It’s refreshing to hear comments about color wheels containing secondary colors as being a good thing. When TI first proposed the idea they published a white paper on the benefits of CYM in conjunction with RGB to stretch the color gamut in the direction RGB alone has trouble filling.

Unfortunately the DLP projector makers were in a lumen war with other technologies and grasp onto the CYM and CYW as a way to make themselves not connected to the RGBW projectors that were commonly business projectors. They could advertise a 1000 lumen as a 3000 lumen projector for virtually the same price. I always felt I saw benefits of the CY segments and even the W in home theater, but nowhere near the 3X lumens. Few proportioned the segment sizes based on improving the gamut but more towards getting higher lumen ratings. Then the word got out right or wrong and anything not a RGBRGB was considered inferior.

The question I always had was how was it at high lumen setting a projector with a yellow segment had more trouble making a bright yellow than a projector that only had RGB segments.

I have resigned myself to trusting RGBRGB to produce the best image even though I’m never 100% sure why that is.

I know we have talked about this a lot in the past but I thought some haven’t seen those conversations.

Bud
bud16415 is offline  
post #68 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 10:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
... I have resigned myself to trusting RGBRGB to produce the best image even though I’m never 100% sure why that is. ...
You are in good company. All the DLP projector manufacturers have also resigned themselves to trusting RGBRGB to produce the best overall image performance. That's why all the most premium DLP projectors are RGBRGB without any CYM elements. I'm pretty sure the DLP projector manufacturers know exactly why this is as they would have researched it pretty thoroughly to see if there was any competitive advantage to be gained by adding CYM elements to their most premium projector models.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #69 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 01:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
You are in good company. All the DLP projector manufacturers have also resigned themselves to trusting RGBRGB to produce the best overall image performance. That's why all the most premium DLP projectors are RGBRGB without any CYM elements. I'm pretty sure the DLP projector manufacturers know exactly why this is as they would have researched it pretty thoroughly to see if there was any competitive advantage to be gained by adding CYM elements to their most premium projector models.
Osram Unishape and Philips VIDI lamp technology is why RGBRGB is used today for best picture performance. They can boost output during the red segment and dim it during the green segment creating higher D65 lumen output. And if they want to boost projector lumen specs also have a bright mode where they boost during the green segment and dim during the red segment. Having three extra segments CYM would I expect reduce the light output they can get because there is less wheel time for red.

And xvYCC color gamut flopped. So being able to produce colors outside the Rec709 R-G-B triangle is not a good selling point.

3D also springs to mind as I would imagine a RGBRGB color wheel is in effect faster at producing alternate left eye right eye frames than a RGBCYM.

While the perception of better color with RGBYCM maybe real or not there is no spec on it, just as there is no spec on color looking better on three chip dlp over singe chip dlp using sequential color.

While for laser projectors the reason is lasers. There is no wasted yellow, cyan, magenta light output and color gamut to be gained by using CYM because there is no lamp producing that light. And they can already produce a wider color gamut just with RGB.

And then there are other differences to DLP projectors of the past.

Dynamic Black lamp or laser or iris boosting and dimming light output in sync with scene brightness with gamma tweaking so light pumping is ideally not noticeable. Enables projector spec sheets stating contrast in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even in excess of a million to one. Without the need for high native contrast.

And then there is the price point. A smaller DLP chip size means a smaller lightpath and projector lens can be used.
DunMunro likes this.

Last edited by dovercat; 02-15-2020 at 02:21 PM.
dovercat is online now  
post #70 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 02:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 749 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
And xvYCC color gamut flopped. So being able to produce colors outside the Rec709 R-G-B triangle is not a good selling point.
except now with uhd we have the bt2020 gamut which covers most color the human eye can perceive. Though hdmi2.0 is required to be able to accept the rec2020 container, otherwise something to remap coordinates in the rec709 container is needed, madvr, lumagen, 3d luts, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
While the perception of better color with RGBYCM maybe real or not there is no spec on it, just as there is no spec on color looking better on three chip dlp over singe chip dlp using sequential color.
I would hazard a guess that this has to do with bit depth and static patterns vs video rendering as well. Also sequential with an rgb light source performs very similar to 3chip in terms of color depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
While for laser projectors the reason is lasers. There is no wasted yellow, cyan, magenta light output and color gamut to be gained by using CYM because there is no lamp producing that light. And they can already produce a wider color gamut just with RGB.
For 3 diode(rgb) laser/led this is true, but not for blue laser yellow phosphor. Gamut is limited with that light source as well without a color filter.
bdht is offline  
post #71 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 05:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
... While the perception of better color with RGBYCM maybe real or not ...
It could be expected that if there were any noticeable improvement in color -- whether real or perceived -- from RGBYCM over RGBRGB that at least one DLP projector manufacturer would have used RGBCYM in at least one of their higher end home theater projectors that's focused on optimum color accuracy over higher lumens. The fact that not a single one has done it in the many years that RGBCYM has been around suggests that there is no measurable nor commonly perceived improvement. Aside from occasional speculation on this forum RGBCYM continues to generate little interest in the projector world as a means to improve color accuracy over RGBRGB.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #72 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 05:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 2,689
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1508 Post(s)
Liked: 804
RGBY seems a common pattern for DLP Laser and RYGCWB is also reasonably common in DLP gaming and business lamp projectors.
DunMunro is offline  
post #73 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 05:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 749 Post(s)
Liked: 348
rgb solid state dlp brilliant color uses rgbcym. Well, less magenta because of the focus on increased light output.
bdht is offline  
post #74 of 90 Old 02-15-2020, 08:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
^ Right, anything other than RGB is used to increase lumens, not to improve overall color accuracy.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #75 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 02:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
except now with uhd we have the bt2020 gamut which covers most color the human eye can perceive. Though hdmi2.0 is required to be able to accept the rec2020 container, otherwise something to remap coordinates in the rec709 container is needed, madvr, lumagen, 3d luts, etc.
What matters for spec sheets today is standard bluray rec709 and 4K Ultra HD bt2020. None bother using RGBCYM to achieve better lamp efficiency and get a polygon with greater than rec709 gamut but less than bt2020 gamut. It is not a selling point as "mastered in 4K" bluray format that uses xvYCC gamut flopped.

And "BrilliantColor" was generally not fully implemented with RGBCYM D65 optimized color wheels designed for better color. It was generally implemented to boost luminance. So "BrilliantColor" is not really a selling point.

Many lamp based single chip 4K DLP projectors today appear to just be bt2020 compatible displaying only rec709 gamut, for example the Optoma HD65 and Acer 9800. And while the Benq W5700 can display bt2020 gamut it uses a filter to switch between rec709 and bt2020. A filter which cuts lumen output at bt2020 to about 50% of that at rec709.

Laser is simply better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I would hazard a guess that this has to do with bit depth and static patterns vs video rendering as well. Also sequential with an rgb light source performs very similar to 3chip in terms of color depth.


For 3 diode(rgb) laser/led this is true, but not for blue laser yellow phosphor. Gamut is limited with that light source as well without a color filter.
That is still vastly better than a UHP lamp's spectrum output.
dovercat is online now  
post #76 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 02:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
It could be expected that if there were any noticeable improvement in color -- whether real or perceived -- from RGBYCM over RGBRGB that at least one DLP projector manufacturer would have used RGBCYM in at least one of their higher end home theater projectors that's focused on optimum color accuracy over higher lumens. The fact that not a single one has done it in the many years that RGBCYM has been around suggests that there is no measurable nor commonly perceived improvement. Aside from occasional speculation on this forum RGBCYM continues to generate little interest in the projector world as a means to improve color accuracy over RGBRGB.
What do you think the Projectiondesign F30 VizSim, cineo30, and Christie and Digital Projection versions were. They were built for color accuracy and quality.

And for more home cinema aimed projectors from the time SIM2 Grand Cinema HT380, SIM2 Grand Cinema HT3000E, SIM2 D80E. All claiming to have full Brilliant color implementation with primary and secondary colors colorwheels.

The reason the color wheels reverted to RGBRGB with the F32 VizSim was xvYCC flopping meant there was no point in having a polygon color gamut with wider than rec709 color space. And Osram Unishape and Philips VIDI lamp technology enabled boosting red and dimming green through lamp pulsing for more lumen output, rather than using secondary color segments to improve use of lamp spectrum.
kreeturez likes this.

Last edited by dovercat; 02-16-2020 at 04:13 AM.
dovercat is online now  
post #77 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 08:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 8,519
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2470 Post(s)
Liked: 1330
Most of this conversation is well above my pay grade but even so I find it educational and thought provoking.

If @dovercat or others could explain for me in layman terms something I have been wondering about for a while.

You mentioned the BenQ5700 getting bt2020 with a filter that also cuts the light output dramatically. I assume this filter gets placed into the light path between the lamp and the RGBRGB color wheel and filters down the white light into something else? What is the something else? What color is the filter? Then how is it possible to take a lessened version of the white illuminate and then filter that thru RGB and get a gamut larger than what the RGB triangle can boundary?

I understand true HDR is an expanded gamut in 3D not just in the range of colors we normally see in a 2D gamut chart but also expanded along the brightness third axis. I also know projectors fall far short of having that ability in brightness so they try and compensate with some form of tone mapping. To my brain this spells out messing around with the information provided from the source and changing it in an attempt to make it better. As without this you are taking a stretched gamut along brightness and compressing it and in doing that detail is merged.

I’m not to familiar with the xvYCC that you said flopped but it sounds like it was a system that would use the CYM to its fuller potential. I always thought that when I had a projector that was RGBCYW but only able to feed it sources REC709 it was like all the CY could possibly do is help the RGB fill out the tiny areas of CY within the RGB triangle as even if there was potential for a larger gamut out of the projector there was no encoded data outside the gamut. So it seemed odd the maker would give over about 1/3 of the color wheel for such a small amount of usefulness. I did notice by eye when I switched to RGBRGB from a similar RGBCYW bright yellow was maybe just a touch not as good.

Understanding xvYCC a bit better now explains a lot. But I still have a hard time making logic out of front projection HDR. The greater resolution isn’t of a big concern for me and the loss of CR and brightness is.

Bud
bud16415 is offline  
post #78 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 08:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
^ I stand corrected. I missed that a few low volume premium home theater models were briefly tried with RGBCYM before being replaced by a superior implementation of RGBRGB. Another interesting "what if" moment in the history of home theater projection.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #79 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 10:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Most of this conversation is well above my pay grade but even so I find it educational and thought provoking.

If @dovercat or others could explain for me in layman terms something I have been wondering about for a while.

You mentioned the BenQ5700 getting bt2020 with a filter that also cuts the light output dramatically. I assume this filter gets placed into the light path between the lamp and the RGBRGB color wheel and filters down the white light into something else? What is the something else? What color is the filter? Then how is it possible to take a lessened version of the white illuminate and then filter that thru RGB and get a gamut larger than what the RGB triangle can boundary?
Cine4home took a BenQ5700 apart and took pictures. In the BenQ5700 the DCI filter is just before the dlp chip. Whereas the Epson Tw9400 has a DCI filter at the start of its light path. The DCI filter can be anywhere in the light path.
http://cine4home.de/benq-w5700-vs-ep...nzimmerbeamer/

At the centre of a color space graph there is white the further away from white the purer, more saturated the colors the bigger the color gamut. Just as you can filter white to get red by removing other colours. If you have a less pure red it can be filtered into a more pure, more saturated red but it will be less bright because to get there you have had to remove the less pure red light. So a rec709 color wheel can be filtered to produce bt2020 at the cost of brightness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
I understand true HDR is an expanded gamut in 3D not just in the range of colors we normally see in a 2D gamut chart but also expanded along the brightness third axis. I also know projectors fall far short of having that ability in brightness so they try and compensate with some form of tone mapping. To my brain this spells out messing around with the information provided from the source and changing it in an attempt to make it better. As without this you are taking a stretched gamut along brightness and compressing it and in doing that detail is merged.
I think 4K HDR source material is display friendly, tone mapping I think is part of the 4K HDR spec, so enabling material to be displayed on displays of varying brightness and contrast ability. The display is not making it up hodgepodge, its following the method set out in the standards to which the source material was encoded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
I’m not to familiar with the xvYCC that you said flopped but it sounds like it was a system that would use the CYM to its fuller potential.I always thought that when I had a projector that was RGBCYW but only able to feed it sources REC709 it was like all the CY could possibly do is help the RGB fill out the tiny areas of CY within the RGB triangle as even if there was potential for a larger gamut out of the projector there was no encoded data outside the gamut. So it seemed odd the maker would give over about 1/3 of the color wheel for such a small amount of usefulness. I did notice by eye when I switched to RGBRGB from a similar RGBCYW bright yellow was maybe just a touch not as good.
The big advantage with a UHP lamp projector of using a RGBCYM color wheel is up to 50% higher brightness than a RGBRGB color wheel. Because the projector is using yellow and cyan frequency light produced by the UHP lamp rather than discarding it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Understanding xvYCC a bit better now explains a lot. But I still have a hard time making logic out of front projection HDR. The greater resolution isn’t of a big concern for me and the loss of CR and brightness is.
bud16415 and DunMunro like this.

Last edited by dovercat; 02-16-2020 at 10:58 AM.
dovercat is online now  
post #80 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 11:09 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
^ I stand corrected. I missed that a few low volume premium home theater models were briefly tried with RGBCYM before being replaced by a superior implementation of RGBRGB. Another interesting "what if" moment in the history of home theater projection.
Depends how you define superior. Smaller color gamut, less bright and less saturated colors.
But better black level.
Black level became the in thing due to JVC D-ila projectors entering the fray.
dovercat is online now  
post #81 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 12:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 8,519
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2470 Post(s)
Liked: 1330
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Depends how you define superior. Smaller color gamut, less bright and less saturated colors.
But better black level.
Black level became the in thing due to JVC D-ila projectors entering the fray.
My opinion and I have given it before and as a long time user of RGBCYW technology (3 years) and then switching to a very similar RGBRGB projector and going on 3 years with it now. My observations are these.

The two projectors consumed roughly the same power the RGBRGB was a little higher. The RGBCYW had the potential for roughly twice the lumen output but in reality by eye the fully acceptable image was about half the max rating. The way I selected the RGBCYW was pretty unscientific I looked at CLO.com and found the projector based around the highest color lumens and the smallest white segment. I then read visual reviews where the projector was subjected to HT like viewing.

Likewise the RGBRGB had its best HT presentation in modes where it was putting out roughly half its max lumen rating and with my screen size and the same screen for both projectors I only required about 1000 lumens and that was right in the wheelhouse for both projectors.

The biggest difference beside the color wheel between the two was the RGBCYW was a dark chip 2 and the RGBRGB was a dark chip 3 the RGBCYW was a WXGA (720p) and the RGBRGB was 1080p.
Seating distance is roughly 8’ from a 100” image.

My expectations were that the resolution was going to be the major improvement and the better colors of the RGBRGB would also be a big improvement.

Once running I was amazed that the resolution was hardly noticeable on BD content and maybe worse on DVD. There was little to write home about with regards to color except maybe a little loss as I mentioned in bright yellows and light blues. But hardly anything I would notice if I weren’t really studying it.

The one factor I didn’t expect was the great improvement in black levels. Nothing like CRT blacks but enough to point out I had gotten used to the weaker blacks over time. Thus an improvement in ANSI blacks and my perceived blacks and I’m sure actual black and CR as well.

I give the dark chip 3 the nod for that.

All this has made me very curious about projectors like the Optoma HD39 Darbee with its 5 segment RGBCY wheel. It just lacks a little zoom to suit my room but sure would like to see it in action.

Bud
bud16415 is offline  
post #82 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 01:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
My opinion and I have given it before and as a long time user of RGBCYW technology (3 years) and then switching to a very similar RGBRGB projector and going on 3 years with it now. My observations are these.

The two projectors consumed roughly the same power the RGBRGB was a little higher. The RGBCYW had the potential for roughly twice the lumen output but in reality by eye the fully acceptable image was about half the max rating. The way I selected the RGBCYW was pretty unscientific I looked at CLO.com and found the projector based around the highest color lumens and the smallest white segment. I then read visual reviews where the projector was subjected to HT like viewing.

Likewise the RGBRGB had its best HT presentation in modes where it was putting out roughly half its max lumen rating and with my screen size and the same screen for both projectors I only required about 1000 lumens and that was right in the wheelhouse for both projectors.

The biggest difference beside the color wheel between the two was the RGBCYW was a dark chip 2 and the RGBRGB was a dark chip 3 the RGBCYW was a WXGA (720p) and the RGBRGB was 1080p.
Seating distance is roughly 8’ from a 100” image.

My expectations were that the resolution was going to be the major improvement and the better colors of the RGBRGB would also be a big improvement.

Once running I was amazed that the resolution was hardly noticeable on BD content and maybe worse on DVD. There was little to write home about with regards to color except maybe a little loss as I mentioned in bright yellows and light blues. But hardly anything I would notice if I weren’t really studying it.

The one factor I didn’t expect was the great improvement in black levels. Nothing like CRT blacks but enough to point out I had gotten used to the weaker blacks over time. Thus an improvement in ANSI blacks and my perceived blacks and I’m sure actual black and CR as well.

I give the dark chip 3 the nod for that.

All this has made me very curious about projectors like the Optoma HD39 Darbee with its 5 segment RGBCY wheel. It just lacks a little zoom to suit my room but sure would like to see it in action.
I would put the improvement in black level and contrast down to the different color wheel. Even with the DLP mirrors off for black the color wheel is still passing the light to the DLP chip. What you want for best black level and contrast is a color wheel optimized for D65, and no white segment. Yellow and cyan segments if being used primarily to boost lumen output are also bad for black level and contrast. The problem is projectors do not always state if their color wheel is optimized for D65 and color accuracy, or a compromise has been made to achieve higher lumen output at the cost of the native white point not being D65 and the color gamut not fully covering rec709. Even a RGBRGB color wheel can be a compromise where the green segment is larger or less saturated to achieve higher lumen output.

Last edited by dovercat; 02-16-2020 at 01:43 PM.
dovercat is online now  
post #83 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 02:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 8,519
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2470 Post(s)
Liked: 1330
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
I would put the improvement in black level and contrast down to the different color wheel. Even with the DLP mirrors off for black the color wheel is still passing the light to the DLP chip. What you want for best black level and contrast is a color wheel optimized for D65, and no white segment. Yellow and cyan segments if being used primarily to boost lumen output are also bad for black level and contrast. The problem is projectors do not always state if their color wheel is optimized for D65 and color accuracy, or a compromise has been made to achieve higher lumen output at the cost of the native white point not being D65 and the color gamut not fully covering rec709. Even a RGBRGB color wheel can be a compromise where the green segment is larger or less saturated to achieve higher lumen output.
That is very true and if so then that’s a major plus for the RGBRGB wheel.

I have noticed quite often green is larger than red and blue. I have also seen color wheels where there is an extra green segment.

A lot is talked about color wheels but seldom see anything really talking about the how and why they are spaced like they are etc.

Maybe you know? Does each manufacture spec their color wheel configuration as they want and then write their own code as to how they go about making colors with that wheel?

When I look at the dozens and dozens of different wheel designs it seem to make me wonder if anyone knows for sure what they are shooting for.

If all they want is brightness i had an RGBW close to 20 years ago that got the business projector side done and it worked fine for HT crossover without making everything green.

Bud

Last edited by bud16415; 02-16-2020 at 02:09 PM.
bud16415 is offline  
post #84 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 04:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 749 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Many lamp based single chip 4K DLP projectors today appear to just be bt2020 compatible displaying only rec709 gamut, for example the Optoma HD65 and Acer 9800. And while the Benq W5700 can display bt2020 gamut it uses a filter to switch between rec709 and bt2020. A filter which cuts lumen output at bt2020 to about 50% of that at rec709.
Just to clarify, UHP/blue laser(phoshpor) lamps with a color filter, whether dlp with a color wheel or 3chip lcd, arent able to get near the green bt2020 target, just p3. It's taking a dedicated green laser diode to produce the yield required to hit bt2020 green, and 2 dedicated diodes on separate wavelengths(re 6p) to finally produce all the various shades/saturations of green our eyes can see.

Its probably what contributed to the lack of traction for xvycc due to no consumer video display could show the actual gamut. Its also why the majority of current uhd content is mastered at p3. Though I watched Ghost in the Shell(1995) which was mastered at bt2020 on the mico40, which can hit bt2020 red and get closer for green, and looked spectacular.

For reference, here's the gamut of the theo-z65, blue laser yellow phosphor with a color filter. I added in the mico40(rgb led) green red points for reference.


I'd love to see the gamut on the rgbcym(or the rgbrgbg) pd/barco/dpi projectors as theyre typically fairly honest about gamut coverage unlike with light output. 4000 ansi lumens is probably 2000 calibrated lumens? with 2 lamps at full power pulling 1kw of electricity and pumping out 3000btu of heat. These projectors were marketed for simulation and professional environments as you would need a dedicated circuit and exhaust.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200216_152131.jpg
Views:	391
Size:	198.0 KB
ID:	2685988  
bdht is offline  
post #85 of 90 Old 02-16-2020, 07:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Depends how you define superior. Smaller color gamut, less bright and less saturated colors.
But better black level.
Black level became the in thing due to JVC D-ila projectors entering the fray.
Every home theater projector review I've seen has shown that when properly calibrated RGBRGB is brighter than RGBCYM and that RGBCYM only holds a brightness advantage in uncalibrated brightest mode. The fact that projector manufacturers gave up on RGBCYM as a higher end option to RGBRGB tells us what they define as superior. Individual opinions of course can vary.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #86 of 90 Old 02-17-2020, 12:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Every home theater projector review I've seen has shown that when properly calibrated RGBRGB is brighter than RGBCYM and that RGBCYM only holds a brightness advantage in uncalibrated brightest mode. The fact that projector manufacturers gave up on RGBCYM as a higher end option to RGBRGB tells us what they define as superior. Individual opinions of course can vary.
Considering you didn't think any RGBCYM projectors designed for best image quality rather than brightness had ever been built. I doubt you have ever seen a RGBCYM projector that was designed for best video/film accuracy and quality.

As I have already said I think the move back to RGBRGB was probably down to Unishape and VIDI lamp technology. And xvYCC flopping so increased native gamut not being a selling point.

Another factor might be colorwheel speeds. RGBCYM triggers DLP rainbow effect due to the luminance difference between yellow and blue, while RGBRGB triggers DLP rainbow effect due to the luminance difference between green and red. In theory because yellow and blue are less different in luminance than green and red it should trigger less DLP rainbow effect. But in practice a RGBCYM wheel is switching from yellow to blue half as fast as a RGBRGB wheel switches from green to red. Maybe in reality RGBCYM color wheels triggered more DLP rainbows. It seems to have been a problem as manufactures at least according to some AVSforum posts at the time played around with sequencing of the RGBCYM segments in an attempt to reduce the DLP rainbow effect.

Then there is 3D presumably RGBRGB because it is twice as fast as RGBCYM is better suited to producing rapid alternate 3D frames.
dovercat is online now  
post #87 of 90 Old 02-17-2020, 06:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave in Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 9,443
Mentioned: 165 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4443 Post(s)
Liked: 3972
^ @dovercat , we agree that there were many good reasons for projector manufacturers to ultimately favor RGBRGB over RGBCYM. It's not really necessary to have actually seen an RGBCYM projector designed for best video/film accuracy and quality in order to reach that conclusion as long as one trusts the science, which you've presented well.
Dave in Green is offline  
post #88 of 90 Old 02-17-2020, 10:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
blake18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,216
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 409
I really doubt it, after this many years, if it hasn't yet, than it won't. That's why I'd stick with 3LCD and LcoS.

Lumenlab "Community driven video lab".
blake18 is offline  
post #89 of 90 Old 02-17-2020, 10:26 AM
Member
 
Serenity_now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemannthey View Post
https://www.tvspecialists.com/jvc-dla-nx7-vs-tvs-pro-theo-z65-with-kris-deering-part-ii/

This a good look at a current udh 4k. I have to say the blacks look decent to me.
I have to agree. The technologies are really more the same than different nowadays once calibrated on the screen.... Your clip post is perfect.

The TV specialists youtube channel is excellent for head to head comparisons.

Very professional and in depth documentation on the details we worry about. Check it out!
Serenity_now is offline  
post #90 of 90 Old 02-28-2020, 01:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Have you seen a native gamut graph of those models? I was never able to find one, I think I remembered reading that the dci models had a 120% ntsc gamut. I see the vizsim is rgbcym and the dci is rgbrgbg.
Just dawned on me that the realcolor factory measured figures are probably the native gamut. Measured figures provide the baseline which the projector uses processing to alter to achieve the desired coordinates. That baseline is measured at computer native. A user calibration uses the same method with the user taking measurements from their screen. The original factory measurements are saved in the service menu so the user projector calibration can be reset back to factory default.

As I buy second hand the caveat is that if a previous owner had access to the service menu they may have been changed.

luminance for colors uses white luminance as 1 so figure is color luminance on its on in comparison to white.

My F30 WUXGA VizSim while the projector label just states VizSim appears to be what would latter be called a VizSim bright color wheel a different version of VizSim colorwheel to my F30 1080 VizSim
Red x 0.638 y 0.352 luminance 0.192
Green x 0.337 y 0.627 luminance 0.519
Blue x 0.139 y 0.064 luminance 0.071
Brilliant Color 1 x 0.434 y 0.536 luminance 0.411
Brilliant Color 2 x 0.150 y 0.185 luminance 0.099
White x 0.310 y 0.318 luminance 1.000

My F30 1080 VizSim appears to be a standard VizSim colorwheel, as far as factory measured luminance goes it appears to be the ratio between the color primaries lumanance figures that matters.
Red x 0.643 y 0.344 luminance 0.133
Green x 0.317 y 0.635 luminance 0.336
Blue x 0.140 y 0.080 luminance 0.061
Brilliant Color 1 x 0.145 y 0.066 luminance 0.049
Brilliant Color 2 x 0.336 y 0.350 luminance 0.000
White x 0.305 y 0.324 luminance 1.000

So the native colorspace of my F30 1080 VizSim
covers 100% of SMPTE-C, and is about 113% the size of SMPTE-C colorspace.
covers about 95% of Rec.709 and is about 105% the size of Rec.709 colorspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
pd/barco/dpi projectors as theyre typically fairly honest about gamut coverage unlike with light output. 4000 ansi lumens is probably 2000 calibrated lumens? with 2 lamps at full power pulling 1kw of electricity and pumping out 3000btu of heat. These projectors were marketed for simulation and professional environments as you would need a dedicated circuit and exhaust.
My F30 1080 VizSim according to my cheap light meter with about 250 hours on each lamp, at native gamut with brilliant color on is 4208 lumen that is more than the 4100 lumen spec. While set to Rec.709 primaries and D65 with brilliant color on it is 3482 lumen. I would take the figures with a pinch of salt as it is a cheap light meter, but the % drop should be about right. So at Rec.709 D65 it is 82.7% of its native lumens.

Is there a need for a dedicated circuit in the USA?

There is no need in the UK where I live.
Projector 1,050 Watts
UK household power socket 240 volts x 13 amp (there are fuses in plugs) = 3,120 Watts.
UK ring main 240 volts x 30 or 32 amp fuse in the fuse box = 7,200 or 7,680 Watts. Typically one ring main for all the sockets on a floor, dedicated ring mains for things like a electric cookers or boilers, and separate lower amp ring mains for the lighting.

As far as heat goes I could use it as a room heater in winter, and need windows open in the summer, and on hot days it is unusable, in the UK air conditioning in homes is uncommon. It is designed to fit an optional exhaust kit that pipes the hot air out of the room but I have not bothered obtaining or DIYing one.
bdht likes this.

Last edited by dovercat; 04-17-2020 at 01:19 PM.
dovercat is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off