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post #1 of 30 Old 01-24-2020, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Really undecided, hoping for some.input

Good day guys,

So I'm really undecided and the more I read the more confused I get.

So I'm looking for a projector for my basement, fully controlled lighting, there are no windows, but I'm not big on watching in full dark setup, so there will be alright ambient lighting behind the couch.

I'm looking for a projector at MAX 4K USD,

Gaming is my main focus but watch TV for a couple of hours every night.

I'm looking at next gen Xbox and want to future proof but I know that might be unrealistic,

I want to go 4K low input lag but I can't find anything under 50 Ms.

All the best low input projector's seem to be 1080p.

Every 10 best projector list I read, has totally different models than the previous one it's crazy.

Dunno if I should go 1080p until 4k matures and then invest in a new 4K.

Or Is there one I missed?

If I want to go 4K i want native 4K.

All inputs are welcome, anything you guys suggest would be greatly appreciated.

Also sound from projector is not a concern as I have a surround sound.

Also don't care about size and build quality as once it's setup, I won't touch it again and it'll be behind the couch so it'll be out of sight.

Thank you guys in advance,
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post #2 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 12:56 AM
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For ambient light a TV would be better.

What is the seating distance?

At what distance can be projector be placed at?

Color of walls?
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post #3 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 01:04 AM
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For native 4K JVC and Sony are your only choices. If you treat the room for reflections you actually can have a lot of dedicated direct ambient light (no flood lights or exposed lamps) near your seating but with a white room any ambient light will washout the picture. Most of the XPR pixel shifting DLP's have higher then 50ms of lag with a few exceptions a little below.

"Smart enough to know better, to old to care" ------ Dedicated Bat Cave Home Theater, JVC RS49U/Mitsubishi HC7900DW Projector, 110" 16:9 Jamestown screen with variable power masking for CIW 2.50:1 to 16:9, Marantz 7009 with 7.1.4 Atmos with Ohm mains,3 DIY Subs (2 15" (1 ported, 1 sealed and a 12" 4th order bandpass), 1 DIY butt kicker, Custom Built HTPC, 18TB DroboFS NAS

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post #4 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 06:20 AM
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Go easy on your bank account and look at the Viewsonic PX725HD. Use it for a couple years and see where 4k goes. Then sell it or keep it as a backup or give it to a friend or family and get them hooked on projection.

That would be my suggestion after you make sure the throw length and such will work for you.

Bud
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post #5 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
For ambient light a TV would be better.

What is the seating distance?

At what distance can be projector be placed at?

Color of walls?
Seating Distance will be about 10 feet.

Color of wall where the screen will go is Dark grey, there won't be any white walls around the screen as the basement is one big room for the most part.

For distance of the projector, it can go up to ~15 feet pprobably

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
For native 4K JVC and Sony are your only choices. If you treat the room for reflections you actually can have a lot of dedicated direct ambient light (no flood lights or exposed lamps) near your seating but with a white room any ambient light will washout the picture. Most of the XPR pixel shifting DLP's have higher then 50ms of lag with a few exceptions a little below.
Not looking for any pixel shifting projectors, I'd either go with 1080p or Native 4K

The whole thing started with me looking into UST projectors since I figured it'd provide better colors as their so close to the screen., but their input lag is too high, lowest found was 50 or so ms and it's the LG 85LA If memory serves but it's also above budget, looked into VAVA, Optoma P1, avoiding xiaomi and other Chinese brands that don't retail in Canada.

In terms of ~50ms of input lag is really not that bad as I'm not a competitive gamer by any means and won't be doing any competitive gaming on it, my current setup has about 40-50 ms and it's fine.

That's when I started looking at regular projectors to see if there were better options, as I read often that for the price of a UST you can get a much better regular throw projector.

Every top 10 list has completely different projectors in their lineups, it's practically impossible to find one model that has even a slight unanimous decision about how good it is.

There's the Optoma HD60, BenQ TK800M, BenQ HT3550,

I see plenty of talks about ANSI Lumens, from reading it seems 3000 is a good amount to deal with some Ambient Light, but most models offer about 2000 ANSI, not sure how much of a difference that would make.

You mentioned SONY and JVC, do you have specific models to recommend I look into? and why those specifically if any.

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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Go easy on your bank account and look at the Viewsonic PX725HD. Use it for a couple years and see where 4k goes. Then sell it or keep it as a backup or give it to a friend or family and get them hooked on projection.

That would be my suggestion after you make sure the throw length and such will work for you.
That is one of the options that i'm considering, my only concern with that approach, is that if i decide to go with UST in the future then I'm gonna have to buy a new screen and I wanted to get a good screen from the start as the one thing that would be long lasting.


For everyone, I was wondering about ALR screens, as they're supposed to be Ambient Light Reflecting, but how does that work with a ceiling mounted projector? I can see them working find for UST or Short Throw projectors as the light is coming from under, but with ceiling mounted, your projector becomes the ambient light.

thank you guys for your inputs, it's really appreciated.

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post #6 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khar00f View Post

That is one of the options that i'm considering, my only concern with that approach, is that if i decide to go with UST in the future then I'm gonna have to buy a new screen and I wanted to get a good screen from the start as the one thing that would be long lasting.


For everyone, I was wondering about ALR screens, as they're supposed to be Ambient Light Reflecting, but how does that work with a ceiling mounted projector? I can see them working find for UST or Short Throw projectors as the light is coming from under, but with ceiling mounted, your projector becomes the ambient light.

thank you guys for your inputs, it's really appreciated.
If you think in the future you may want UST projector then at that time you should think about a UST screen IMO, especially if you want something ALR. The two for the two different projector technologies work counter to each other as how you assumed they would.

I have a projector quite similar to the one I suggested above and I have been involved in HT FP for nearly 20 years and I’m using a simple to do DIY neutral gray screen painted wall. If you have a smooth wall to paint a nice stealth screen can be painted in a couple hours for a cost of about $20. You can use such a screen wall to determine screen size and location and see with your own eyes what you like. If you are like me you will be satisfied and sit back and enjoy. Down the road if you go UST who knows what improvements and cost reductions will be around then.

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I mention Sony and JVC because they are the only manufactures that make native 4K projectors. All the projectors you list are pixel shifting DLP's (Optoma UHD60, BenQ 3550, TK800M). . The JVC NX5/RS1000 is their entry level native 4K projector but the NX7/RS2000 is the sweet spot with the rather unaffordable NX9 at the top. Sony is the only other brand that has native 4K and I am not up to speed on the various models. UST projectors are best suited for non dedicated rooms. ALR screens for standard throw projectors reject light from angles other then the projector so of course they are of no help if the ambient light comes from the same direction as the projector.

"Smart enough to know better, to old to care" ------ Dedicated Bat Cave Home Theater, JVC RS49U/Mitsubishi HC7900DW Projector, 110" 16:9 Jamestown screen with variable power masking for CIW 2.50:1 to 16:9, Marantz 7009 with 7.1.4 Atmos with Ohm mains,3 DIY Subs (2 15" (1 ported, 1 sealed and a 12" 4th order bandpass), 1 DIY butt kicker, Custom Built HTPC, 18TB DroboFS NAS
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post #8 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
If you think in the future you may want UST projector then at that time you should think about a UST screen IMO, especially if you want something ALR. The two for the two different projector technologies work counter to each other as how you assumed they would.

I have a projector quite similar to the one I suggested above and I have been involved in HT FP for nearly 20 years and I’m using a simple to do DIY neutral gray screen painted wall. If you have a smooth wall to paint a nice stealth screen can be painted in a couple hours for a cost of about $20. You can use such a screen wall to determine screen size and location and see with your own eyes what you like. If you are like me you will be satisfied and sit back and enjoy. Down the road if you go UST who knows what improvements and cost reductions will be around then.
Paint doesn't work on that wall, first I just painted it because we're renovating the basement but second the wall is far from perfect, so it'll show a lot of imperfections.

But I think the more Io look into it the more i'm leaning towards UST again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
I mention Sony and JVC because they are the only manufactures that make native 4K projectors. All the projectors you list are pixel shifting DLP's (Optoma UHD60, BenQ 3550, TK800M). . The JVC NX5/RS1000 is their entry level native 4K projector but the NX7/RS2000 is the sweet spot with the rather unaffordable NX9 at the top. Sony is the only other brand that has native 4K and I am not up to speed on the various models. UST projectors are best suited for non dedicated rooms. ALR screens for standard throw projectors reject light from angles other then the projector so of course they are of no help if the ambient light comes from the same direction as the projector.
That's interesting because all the projectors above have 4K listed as native resolution except for the Optoma P1, i'm gonna have to double check that then.

I'm leaning towards this screen:

Elite Screens AEON CLR, 100" Diag 16:9, Edge Free Ceiling Light Rejecting and Ambient Light Rejecting Fixed Frame Projector Screens, AR100H-CLR which is supposed to be for ST and UST projectors.

As for the projector, if i dont' settle for a 4K ust (debating between the Optoma P1/LG HU85LA (would have to find a way to increase the budget by double at this point so not likely), I'm probably going to settle for the 1080P Optoma 5600, not too expensive, at least the screen will be future proof for UST and this will last a few years until prices drop and tech evolves.

I'm gonna have to think long and hard about what to do.
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post #9 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 10:35 AM
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Paint doesn't work on that wall, first I just painted it because we're renovating the basement but second the wall is far from perfect, so it'll show a lot of imperfections.

But I think the more Io look into it the more i'm leaning towards UST again.
Well thanks for letting me try and help. UST and UST screens are out of my pay grade.

Keep in mind the designation of 4k UHD, true 4k, etc. don’t necessarily mean native 4k. There are improvements and also drawbacks to these “4k” technologies at this time. The native 4k machines are most likely well outside your budget. Also conceder the media sources you will be using and most importantly the screen size / seating distance. 4k benefits most when given moderate to extreme immersion levels. What you have mentioned so far as to your preference of immersion levels I would call pretty conservative.

Bud
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post #10 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Well thanks for letting me try and help. UST and UST screens are out of my pay grade.

Keep in mind the designation of 4k UHD, true 4k, etc. don’t necessarily mean native 4k. There are improvements and also drawbacks to these “4k” technologies at this time. The native 4k machines are most likely well outside your budget. Also conceder the media sources you will be using and most importantly the screen size / seating distance. 4k benefits most when given moderate to extreme immersion levels. What you have mentioned so far as to your preference of immersion levels I would call pretty conservative.
Yeah, I would put the links where they claim native resolution 4K for hese models buy I don't think it's allowed.

Either way, it's fine.

I think I'm settled on the Optoma 5600 + that Es above.

Budget wise the projector is "cheap" so for a 1st projector I think it'll be good for me to figure out what I like and don't like and also if Projector is the screen for me.

And you're right, I'm not a videophile by any means, I bought a Sony 85" 85X900F over the holidays because I wanted a big screen, but I'm having buyers remorse with the projector.

So I'm gonna return it and try the setup above and see how much I enjoy it instead.
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post #11 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 12:06 PM
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@Khar00f

Screen size should not be decided until the projector has been used for a few weeks on a wall.
User preference is the ultimate factor, a very general ratio is 10-12" in diagonal for every foot in distance. That would be between 100-120". But there is a user who likes to sit at 7' with an 135" screen, 4K display.
You might want a big screen, which would limit the projector selection.

With such a large screen you will very likely want to use the setup for movies/TV.

While visual acuity differs, 100" from 10' might be unnoticeable with a 4K display.

Resolution wise, native 4K are amongst the sharpest. 4K DLP pixel shifters can also be very sharp, with some models being sharper than native 4K, but they're outside the budget. Native 4K and DLP 4K pixel shifter have ~8m pixels, while Epson's 3LCD only has ~4m.
Other components such as lenses have an impact on sharpness, not just the resolution output.

The source is also important. Many movies are actually shot in 2K and repacked at 4K. There is a difference between a title shot in 4K. With video games it can get complicated since the internals can be other than 4K, especially on consoles.
4K projectors can do an ok job with 1080p upscaled to 4K, but a 4K source is where the improvement will be seen.

What is the gaming platform, next gen XBOX only?

UST projectors are rather expensive for what they provide, you're partially paying for aesthetics. As other have mentioned above, UST ALR's are not the same as regular throw ALR's.

Lumen values should not be taken from next to the product name. There are some reviews that measure each preset in each lamp mode, like Projector Central reviews.

Lag.
DLP 4K when inputted 1080p can vary from 40ms to 80. There has been some suggestion that with a 4K signal the lag is lower, but no one has measured them yet. The TK800M and HT3550 sit around 40-50ms lag with 1080p.

Native 4K latest generation JVC are low 30's and Sony with high 20's. With a 4K signal, maybe even with 1080p, can't remember right now.

3LCD on Epson is low 20's with 4K and high 20's with 1080p.

The issue with Epson is their motion handling is not the best, but they are still used for gaming. At the bottom of the page there will be two videos between a 4K DLP and 4K 3LCD. In the second video the right side is quicker because the Epson (on the right) has lower lag.

DLP has the best motion handling, followed by 4K native JVC and Sony, with 3LCD being last.


As rekbones suggested even a white screen can be used if the lights are controlled, not too bight, don't hit the screen directly, etc.

While you may not notice, some ALR screens might introduce visual artifacts. Some visual artifacts appear if the projector is placed to close, and while it differs from fabric to fabric, the recommended throw is somewhere around 1.8x or above. The throw is calculated with the screen width.
Some projectors don't have the necessary throw for using ALR screens.

Some examples of how angular long throw ALR screens behave:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924

ALR screens can be built for very little, average performing ALR fabrics can be had for under $200. If you can build a wooden frame, that would be very budget friendly:
Here is an example of a screen with Carl's ALR:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...lr-review.html

Paint is a nice option for a screen that improves black levels, with ALR properties. It's inexpensive and can be applied on a cheap white PVC screen. The advantage is it can be customized to your setup.

As others have also suggested, getting an inexpensive budget projector first to get an idea of what you might want for a projector is a great idea. The Viewsonic mentioned above has ~16ms lag. The Benq HT2050A is a very similar model with the same amount of lag. They both have a RGBRGB color wheel, which has the best picture quality (from the selection of color wheels).

The first and best suggestion is to get a budget projector and test it out. There are 4K DLP projectors with low lag in the works, but not available for purchase right now.

A few other options:

Native 4K Sony/JVC and a white or ALR screen. B stock JVC NX5 is about the same price of an Epson 6050UB or lower. PQ wise and gaming would be the best option here. It's great black levels, as well as black levels of other projectors will be affected by ambient light. So for gaming with ambient lights this aspect will be negatively impacted, but a 4K native projector with poorer blacks (still ok) is still around the same price. The nice blacks would be a benefit for lights off movie/TV.

4K Epson 5050UB. If the screen is not too large the ~4m pixels will not be obvious. The issue here might be motion handling. If you can, go see a 3LCD Epson live in a store, maybe compared to a 4K native or DLP to ascertain if motion handling is ok.

4K Epson HC3800/3200. Bright. The HC3800 has better blacks than the 3200, but if there will only be ambient light gaming the 3200 will be a better choice.

1080p laser like the Optoma ZH403. It's got ~32ms lag. Can accept a 4K signal. Budget friendly.


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post #12 of 30 Old 01-25-2020, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@Khar00f

Screen size should not be decided until the projector has been used for a few weeks on a wall.
User preference is the ultimate factor, a very general ratio is 10-12" in diagonal for every foot in distance. That would be between 100-120". But there is a user who likes to sit at 7' with an 135" screen, 4K display.
You might want a big screen, which would limit the projector selection.

With such a large screen you will very likely want to use the setup for movies/TV.

While visual acuity differs, 100" from 10' might be unnoticeable with a 4K display.

Resolution wise, native 4K are amongst the sharpest. 4K DLP pixel shifters can also be very sharp, with some models being sharper than native 4K, but they're outside the budget. Native 4K and DLP 4K pixel shifter have ~8m pixels, while Epson's 3LCD only has ~4m.
Other components such as lenses have an impact on sharpness, not just the resolution output.

The source is also important. Many movies are actually shot in 2K and repacked at 4K. There is a difference between a title shot in 4K. With video games it can get complicated since the internals can be other than 4K, especially on consoles.
4K projectors can do an ok job with 1080p upscaled to 4K, but a 4K source is where the improvement will be seen.

What is the gaming platform, next gen XBOX only?

UST projectors are rather expensive for what they provide, you're partially paying for aesthetics. As other have mentioned above, UST ALR's are not the same as regular throw ALR's.

Lumen values should not be taken from next to the product name. There are some reviews that measure each preset in each lamp mode, like Projector Central reviews.

Lag.
DLP 4K when inputted 1080p can vary from 40ms to 80. There has been some suggestion that with a 4K signal the lag is lower, but no one has measured them yet. The TK800M and HT3550 sit around 40-50ms lag with 1080p.

Native 4K latest generation JVC are low 30's and Sony with high 20's. With a 4K signal, maybe even with 1080p, can't remember right now.

3LCD on Epson is low 20's with 4K and high 20's with 1080p.

The issue with Epson is their motion handling is not the best, but they are still used for gaming. At the bottom of the page there will be two videos between a 4K DLP and 4K 3LCD. In the second video the right side is quicker because the Epson (on the right) has lower lag.

DLP has the best motion handling, followed by 4K native JVC and Sony, with 3LCD being last.


As rekbones suggested even a white screen can be used if the lights are controlled, not too bight, don't hit the screen directly, etc.

While you may not notice, some ALR screens might introduce visual artifacts. Some visual artifacts appear if the projector is placed to close, and while it differs from fabric to fabric, the recommended throw is somewhere around 1.8x or above. The throw is calculated with the screen width.
Some projectors don't have the necessary throw for using ALR screens.

Some examples of how angular long throw ALR screens behave:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924

ALR screens can be built for very little, average performing ALR fabrics can be had for under $200. If you can build a wooden frame, that would be very budget friendly:
Here is an example of a screen with Carl's ALR:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...lr-review.html

Paint is a nice option for a screen that improves black levels, with ALR properties. It's inexpensive and can be applied on a cheap white PVC screen. The advantage is it can be customized to your setup.

As others have also suggested, getting an inexpensive budget projector first to get an idea of what you might want for a projector is a great idea. The Viewsonic mentioned above has ~16ms lag. The Benq HT2050A is a very similar model with the same amount of lag. They both have a RGBRGB color wheel, which has the best picture quality (from the selection of color wheels).

The first and best suggestion is to get a budget projector and test it out. There are 4K DLP projectors with low lag in the works, but not available for purchase right now.

A few other options:

Native 4K Sony/JVC and a white or ALR screen. B stock JVC NX5 is about the same price of an Epson 6050UB or lower. PQ wise and gaming would be the best option here. It's great black levels, as well as black levels of other projectors will be affected by ambient light. So for gaming with ambient lights this aspect will be negatively impacted, but a 4K native projector with poorer blacks (still ok) is still around the same price. The nice blacks would be a benefit for lights off movie/TV.

4K Epson 5050UB. If the screen is not too large the ~4m pixels will not be obvious. The issue here might be motion handling. If you can, go see a 3LCD Epson live in a store, maybe compared to a 4K native or DLP to ascertain if motion handling is ok.

4K Epson HC3800/3200. Bright. The HC3800 has better blacks than the 3200, but if there will only be ambient light gaming the 3200 will be a better choice.

1080p laser like the Optoma ZH403. It's got ~32ms lag. Can accept a 4K signal. Budget friendly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3soG9IkkW5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0jReZWRvk
A lot to think about, I think i'm gonna stick with the Optoma GT5600 UST for now, 4K will mature and get better, it'll hold me off for a few years hopefully.

It has low Input Lag and it's UST, with the Elite Screens AEON CLR ScreenBright material will serve UST projectors well.

To answer your question, I game on PC (1080p) Nintendo Switch (1080p MAX) and Xbox One S (1080p Max), I will def get the Xbox One Series X when it comes out which should be optimized for 4K but I honestly don't think i'd be bothered by running it at 1080p, (I'll just get better performance ).

I'll buy it test it out, if it doesn't work out for me, i'l simply return it. I won't settle until i'm satisfied and feel I got my money's worth.

Also i checked out the NX5 but outside of the fact that it's out of budget, the lamp is also rated for 1000 hours I think which is not very much which means i'm gonna have to change the lamp once a year about if not more AND that's assuming it lasts 1000hrs.

Like for the Sony TV i just bought, I'm not happy with it, dont' get me wrong, it's nice, but i dont' feel it justifies the price I paid for it. That's why i'm returning and will give the projector a try.

I do have one question for you because you threw a lot of knowledge at me along with the other peers on this forum.

(For everyone reading this) In your opinion if you had 3K to spend on a projector (Exclude the screen). if the following criteria's are your priority:

- Low input lag
- Good brightness to sustain a bit of ambient light
- 50/50 (sage between gaming and movie/TV)

1080p:
4K Native (if any):
4K Pixel Shifting (if any):
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A lot to think about, I think i'm gonna stick with the Optoma GT5600 UST for now, 4K will mature and get better, it'll hold me off for a few years hopefully.

It has low Input Lag and it's UST, with the Elite Screens AEON CLR ScreenBright material will serve UST projectors well.

To answer your question, I game on PC (1080p) Nintendo Switch (1080p MAX) and Xbox One S (1080p Max), I will def get the Xbox One Series X when it comes out which should be optimized for 4K but I honestly don't think i'd be bothered by running it at 1080p, (I'll just get better performance ).

I'll buy it test it out, if it doesn't work out for me, i'l simply return it. I won't settle until i'm satisfied and feel I got my money's worth.

Also i checked out the NX5 but outside of the fact that it's out of budget, the lamp is also rated for 1000 hours I think which is not very much which means i'm gonna have to change the lamp once a year about if not more AND that's assuming it lasts 1000hrs.

Like for the Sony TV i just bought, I'm not happy with it, dont' get me wrong, it's nice, but i dont' feel it justifies the price I paid for it. That's why i'm returning and will give the projector a try.

I do have one question for you because you threw a lot of knowledge at me along with the other peers on this forum.

(For everyone reading this) In your opinion if you had 3K to spend on a projector (Exclude the screen). if the following criteria's are your priority:

- Low input lag
- Good brightness to sustain a bit of ambient light
- 50/50 (sage between gaming and movie/TV)

1080p:
4K Native (if any):
4K Pixel Shifting (if any):
The NX5's lamp is not rated for 1000h, Approx. 4500 hours in Low mod, I assume 3000h in High mode.

Depends on what the size of the screen is, and it's gain. Personally I would like a BIG screen, but it's a personal preference.

There are no native 4K under 3K$, new at least.

1080p:

Benq HT2050A: 60Hz 16ms 1080p. Might not be bright enough for a screen larger than 120" with some ambient light on. Throw still not long enough to work with most ALR screens without artifacts. Has a RGBRGB color wheel.

Epson HC3700/3100. Bright, can do 60Hz in 1080p with 28ms. Can work with ALR screens. Has an iris which means somewhat better blacks than the HT2050A. Motion handling might be sub par, you'll have to see on live to figure out if it's acceptable.

Pixel shifters:

5050UB. Nice blacks, colors, low lag (20's), has motorized lenses for different setups like CIH. Bright and can work with ALR's. 3LCD motion handling.

Benq HT3550/Optoma UHD51 (and other variants). Unclear what the lag is with a 4K signal. Blacks similar to budget DLP, a bit better with the HT3550 since it has an iris. Might not be bright enough for a large screen, or ambient lights. They are not dim though. RGBRGB color wheels.


LE:
Already mentioned the 5040UB in a post above.
For 4K DLP, the Optoma UHD52ALV and Benq TK850 also don't have RGBRGB color wheels, but in your setup they might do. The TK850 has an iris, but blacks with both of these is not great.
4K 3LCD the Epson HC3800 is bright, has an iris, blacks similar to DLP's mentioned here, works with ALR's, needs some adjustment out of the box.

Personally I'm biased since I'd like to get the best blacks and color, so a rojector with a non RGBRGB color wheel is not something I'd go for, or the options here outside the 5000UB series from Epson.

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What aspect of your Sony TV did you not like? A UST projectors only true advantage over a TV is pic size and in general all other picture qualities will be inferior maybe even by a wide margin. Some people do like the more natural reflective light from a projector then the harshness of emissive displays but they are in the minority.

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Originally Posted by Khar00f View Post
Seating Distance will be about 10 feet.

Color of wall where the screen will go is Dark grey, there won't be any white walls around the screen as the basement is one big room for the most part.

For distance of the projector, it can go up to ~15 feet pprobably



Not looking for any pixel shifting projectors, I'd either go with 1080p or Native 4K

The whole thing started with me looking into UST projectors since I figured it'd provide better colors as their so close to the screen., but their input lag is too high, lowest found was 50 or so ms and it's the LG 85LA If memory serves but it's also above budget, looked into VAVA, Optoma P1, avoiding xiaomi and other Chinese brands that don't retail in Canada.

In terms of ~50ms of input lag is really not that bad as I'm not a competitive gamer by any means and won't be doing any competitive gaming on it, my current setup has about 40-50 ms and it's fine.

That's when I started looking at regular projectors to see if there were better options, as I read often that for the price of a UST you can get a much better regular throw projector.

Every top 10 list has completely different projectors in their lineups, it's practically impossible to find one model that has even a slight unanimous decision about how good it is.

There's the Optoma HD60, BenQ TK800M, BenQ HT3550,

I see plenty of talks about ANSI Lumens, from reading it seems 3000 is a good amount to deal with some Ambient Light, but most models offer about 2000 ANSI, not sure how much of a difference that would make.

You mentioned SONY and JVC, do you have specific models to recommend I look into? and why those specifically if any.



That is one of the options that i'm considering, my only concern with that approach, is that if i decide to go with UST in the future then I'm gonna have to buy a new screen and I wanted to get a good screen from the start as the one thing that would be long lasting.


For everyone, I was wondering about ALR screens, as they're supposed to be Ambient Light Reflecting, but how does that work with a ceiling mounted projector? I can see them working find for UST or Short Throw projectors as the light is coming from under, but with ceiling mounted, your projector becomes the ambient light.

thank you guys for your inputs, it's really appreciated.
I have the LG HU85 and for gaming the input lag is not bad AS LONG AS YOU USE THE ‘GAME’ PICTURE PROFILE. I’m not a competitive gamer by any stretch, but that being said, the input lag on the non-game profiles was too much. 100% unplayable. On-screen action wouldn’t happen until after you hit and released a button. I was getting my face beat in in MK11, because everything had already actually happened or begun to happen by the time I saw it on-screen. Once I switched profiles and adjusted the color, it was amazing, though. It also has an option to turn on auto-detect with gaming systems, but my AVR is too old(2008 Yamaha) to pass that communication(or HDR or 4K). It may be my next upgrade. I’m currently running my Apple TV 4K directly in on the second HDMI input and looping the audio out of the projector via optical to the receiver.
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I have the LG HU85 and for gaming the input lag is not bad AS LONG AS YOU USE THE ‘GAME’ PICTURE PROFILE. I’m not a competitive gamer by any stretch, ...
If your referring to the HU85LA it was one of the models I was looking at but opted instead to go a different route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
What aspect of your Sony TV did you not like? ...
What bothers me the most was the FALD, whenever it's set to medium or high the whole thing would light up like a Christmas tree , didn't have enough zones and it's extremely distracting, I have to keep it on low or off but then would lose out on HDR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
...

Depends on what the size of the screen is, and it's gain. Personally I would like a BIG screen, but it's a personal preference.

There are no native 4K under 3K$, new at least.

1080p:

Benq HT2050A: 60Hz 16ms 1080p. Might not be bright enough for a screen larger than 120" with some ambient light on. Throw still not long enough to work with most ALR screens without artifacts. Has a RGBRGB color wheel.

Epson HC3700/3100. Bright, can do 60Hz in 1080p with 28ms. Can work with ALR screens. Has an iris which means somewhat better blacks than the HT2050A. Motion handling might be sub par, you'll have to see on live to figure out if it's acceptable.

Pixel shifters:

5050UB. Nice blacks, colors, low lag (20's), has motorized lenses for different setups like CIH. Bright and can work with ALR's. 3LCD motion handling.

Benq HT3550/Optoma UHD51 (and other variants). Unclear what the lag is with a 4K signal. Blacks similar to budget DLP, a bit better with the HT3550 since it has an iris. Might not be bright enough for a large screen, or ambient lights. They are not dim though. RGBRGB color wheels.


LE:
Already mentioned the 5040UB in a post above.
For 4K DLP, the Optoma UHD52ALV and Benq TK850 also don't have RGBRGB color wheels, but in your setup they might do. The TK850 has an iris, but blacks with both of these is not great.
4K 3LCD the Epson HC3800 is bright, has an iris, blacks similar to DLP's mentioned here, works with ALR's, needs some adjustment out of the box.

Personally I'm biased since I'd like to get the best blacks and color, so a rojector with a non RGBRGB color wheel is not something I'd go for, or the options here outside the 5000UB series from Epson.
Ok so screen wise I'm looking at 100-120, that's decided.

Distance will be 8-10 feet from screen and projector will be about 10-11 feet from screen.

If I get what you're saying, you're recommending the 5050UB or HT3550?

What's your take on Epson 4050?

Couple of questions if you don't mind,

What CIH?
What's LE?

Also if I go with short throw or regular throw projector they'll be ceiling mounted,

How does ceiling mounting work with ALR's?

Thank you for all your help,
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What aspect of your Sony TV did you not like? A UST projectors only true advantage over a TV is pic size and in general all other picture qualities will be inferior maybe even by a wide margin. Some people do like the more natural reflective light from a projector then the harshness of emissive displays but they are in the minority.
Doesn't that apply to most projectors? I mean if you remove the screen size from it and just go by sheer picture quality/performance standpoint, my 55" OLED beats my local Regal theater that is equipped with 4K Sony projectors. The only reason I bought a projector is because there is no such thing as a 120" OLED for $5K.

I will say, though, that there is something nice about a reflected image from a projector screen. And you don't have to worry about things like lamps causing reflections that interfere with viewing, like on a "TV" screen.
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Doesn't that apply to most projectors? I mean if you remove the screen size from it and just go by sheer picture quality/performance standpoint, my 55" OLED beats my local Regal theater that is equipped with 4K Sony projectors. The only reason I bought a projector is because there is no such thing as a 120" OLED for $5K.

I will say, though, that there is something nice about a reflected image from a projector screen. And you don't have to worry about things like lamps causing reflections that interfere with viewing, like on a "TV" screen.
Yes that is true for most projectors but more so for UST. A JVC LCOS projector in a fully treated room can come very close to an OLED TV. I can't emphasize more the most important factor in FP is how you treat the room. In a poor highly reflective/poorly light controlled room FP falls apart very fast. ALR screens are a poor attempt at fixing this problem and sometimes introduce more problems then they fix at a signifent cost. Sony makes a UST with LCOS tech that can compete with the best of them but costs upwards of $60k.

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I am a huge DLP fan and have owned mostly DLP for the last 20 years but I have yet to see a current DLP in the sub $3K market that can best the 5050ub as an all-around unit (especially if gaming is a factor).

I have seen and/or owned many of the current models covering the various technologies (those are my videos linked above).

Best of luck,
Jason

HT = Epson 5050ub @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Sony x800 / Panasonic UB820 VOTE BLUE
Media Room = Sony 65x930e / Denon x3300 /Klipsch speakers /Velodyne subs /Sony x700 /PS4 Pro + PSVR/WiiU/PS3/360/Wii/ 2080 TI - 9900K PC / Multi-Arcade / Virtual Pinball TRE45ON
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Originally Posted by Khar00f View Post
If your referring to the HU85LA it was one of the models I was looking at but opted instead to go a different route.



What bothers me the most was the FALD, whenever it's set to medium or high the whole thing would light up like a Christmas tree , didn't have enough zones and it's extremely distracting, I have to keep it on low or off but then would lose out on HDR.



Ok so screen wise I'm looking at 100-120, that's decided.

Distance will be 8-10 feet from screen and projector will be about 10-11 feet from screen.

If I get what you're saying, you're recommending the 5050UB or HT3550?

What's your take on Epson 4050?

Couple of questions if you don't mind,

What CIH?
What's LE?

Also if I go with short throw or regular throw projector they'll be ceiling mounted,

How does ceiling mounting work with ALR's?

Thank you for all your help,
Don't decide on a screen size until you've seen what different sizes look like.

Epson 5xxx series has significantly better blacks and contrast, as well as a better picture quality than the HT3550. They are in different categories.

The HC4050 is the HC4010 with a few differences: has a black case, an extra lamp, a mount, some cable and some warranty (?).
It's the same with the 5050UB and 6050UB.

The HC4xxx series is the 5xxxUB series without the nice blacks. The HC4010/4050 has blacks similar to the HT3550.

UST ALR and regular throw ALR are different and not interchangeable.

Angular ALR's work like a mirror. If you put the projector in the ceiling, it's beam will hit the screen and reflect at the same angle but downwards. The viewer's eye sight must be in this reflected beam. It does not have be exactly , just roughly.
For instance on my setup although the beam hits the screen at 10 degrees, the image looks better if it's viewed from above where the reflection would land.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ection-screens

The other requirement for angular ALR's is a minimum/recommended throw ratio for projector distance in order to avoid artifacts. A throw ratio of 1.8x to 2.0x is recommended. It's calculated by the width of the screen.

http://screen-size.info/
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

With an 120" screen in 16:9 format the width is 104.6".
104.6 x 1.8 = 188.28‬" or 15.7'


LE means later edit.

CIH is Constant Image Height. Go to 21m:44s:

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Don't decide on a screen size until you've seen what different sizes look like.

Epson 5xxx series has significantly better blacks and contrast, as well as a better picture quality than the HT3550. They are in different categories.

The HC4050 is the HC4010 with a few differences: has a black case, an extra lamp, a mount, some cable and some warranty (?).
It's the same with the 5050UB and 6050UB.

The HC4xxx series is the 5xxxUB series without the nice blacks. The HC4010/4050 has blacks similar to the HT3550.

UST ALR and regular throw ALR are different and not interchangeable.

Angular ALR's work like a mirror. If you put the projector in the ceiling, it's beam will hit the screen and reflect at the same angle but downwards. The viewer's eye sight must be in this reflected beam. It does not have be exactly , just roughly.
For instance on my setup although the beam hits the screen at 10 degrees, the image looks better if it's viewed from above where the reflection would land.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ection-screens

The other requirement for angular ALR's is a minimum/recommended throw ratio for projector distance in order to avoid artifacts. A throw ratio of 1.8x to 2.0x is recommended. It's calculated by the width of the screen.

http://screen-size.info/
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

With an 120" screen in 16:9 format the width is 104.6".
104.6 x 1.8 = 188.28‬" or 15.7'


LE means later edit.

CIH is Constant Image Height. Go to 21m:44s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSfMV0Fww8s&t=21m44s
Alrighty, small update,

So I bit the bullet and bout the 5050UB

I found a store that sells that model and they had a demo on hand so I was able to view the picture quality before I buy.

So I have one last question, yesterday I played around with it to see screen size and throw distance.

I'm able to fit 120" screen so that's what I'm buying.

Now here's my question, I'm debating between two screens.

Elite screen Cinegrey 120"
Elite screen Cinegrey3D 120" (ALR)

Initially I wanted an ALR screen but yesterday I came to a realisation.

The projector will finally not be set in the middle of the screen instead it's going to be aligned to the right edge and using lens shifting I'm going to center it (tested it and it works)

Getting to my question the fact that it's going to be on the edge of the screen how usefully would an ALR screen be?

Given that new development should I simply got with the regular Cinegrey instead?

Thank you for all your help,
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Alrighty, small update,

So I bit the bullet and bout the 5050UB

I found a store that sells that model and they had a demo on hand so I was able to view the picture quality before I buy.

So I have one last question, yesterday I played around with it to see screen size and throw distance.

I'm able to fit 120" screen so that's what I'm buying.

Now here's my question, I'm debating between two screens.

Elite screen Cinegrey 120"
Elite screen Cinegrey3D 120" (ALR)

Initially I wanted an ALR screen but yesterday I came to a realisation.

The projector will finally not be set in the middle of the screen instead it's going to be aligned to the right edge and using lens shifting I'm going to center it (tested it and it works)

Getting to my question the fact that it's going to be on the edge of the screen how usefully would an ALR screen be?

Given that new development should I simply got with the regular Cinegrey instead?

Thank you for all your help,
No ALR in this case.

If the walls around the screen will be dark then get a white screen. Like a basic white Silver Ticket or Elite.

Or get samples first:
https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens.../dp/B01E9LMOC2
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...terial-samples

The Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey is also an ALR, FIY.
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No ALR in this case.

If the walls around the screen will be dark then get a white screen. Like a basic white Silver Ticket or Elite.

Or get samples first:
https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens.../dp/B01E9LMOC2
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...terial-samples

The Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey is also an ALR, FIY.
There are actually no walls around the screen, it's one big room

The stores don't ship to Montreal I tried looking.

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There are actually no walls around the screen, it's one big room

The stores don't ship to Montreal I tried looking.
How far away are the walls and ceiling?

Amazon US/Elite screens doesn't ship Montreal?

https://shop.elitescreens.com/store/..._Material.html

A white screen would be best, but samples will help deciding.
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How far away are the walls and ceiling?

Amazon US/Elite screens doesn't ship Montreal?

https://shop.elitescreens.com/store/..._Material.html

A white screen would be best, but samples will help deciding.
Nope tried ordering from Amazon and from Elite Screens when i go to checkout says it doesn't ship to my address.

as for the walls and ceiling

Left wall is about 15 feet away, right wall is about 6 feet away
My ceilings are lowish, i think they're about 7 feet or so, the projector lens will be about 10" lower than the ceiling.

The screen will be about 4-5 inches from the ceiling.
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Nope tried ordering from Amazon and from Elite Screens when i go to checkout says it doesn't ship to my address.

as for the walls and ceiling

Left wall is about 15 feet away, right wall is about 6 feet away
My ceilings are lowish, i think they're about 7 feet or so, the projector lens will be about 10" lower than the ceiling.

The screen will be about 4-5 inches from the ceiling.
So what color is the ceiling and the wall 7' away? Grey? If yes go for a white screen.

If they are white then a grey screen will be of minimal use.Grey would be better than a white screen I guess, but the brightness of the projector will have to be increased to compensate for the negative gain. By a higher lamp preset or placing the projector closer.

Keep it simple and go for a white screen, imo.
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So what color is the ceiling and the wall 7' away? Grey? If yes go for a white screen.

If they are white then a grey screen will be of minimal use.Grey would be better than a white screen I guess, but the brightness of the projector will have to be increased to compensate for the negative gain. By a higher lamp preset or placing the projector closer.

Keep it simple and go for a white screen, imo.
The ceiling is White, there's no wall per say on the right side there's a double french doors leading to a room.

So ALR is out of the picture due to the angled projector placement.

Now between White and Grey screen, I think Grey provides better blacks if i'm not mistaking and white will provide a brighter image overall?
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The ceiling is White, there's no wall per say on the right side there's a double french doors leading to a room.

So ALR is out of the picture due to the angled projector placement.

Now between White and Grey screen, I think Grey provides better blacks if i'm not mistaking and white will provide a brighter image overall?
A grey screen of 0.8 gain for instance will send back 80% of the light. It will make the entire image darker, improving the blacks, but affecting the brightest whites and colors.

To offset this the brightness has to be increased by 20%. The only way to do this is by changing the lamp mode or by moving the projector closer to the screen.

If the brightness is increased by 20% the 0.8 screen will reflect the same amount of light as a white screen.

What happens next is the light bounces around the room, but because the screen is 0.8 gain it only sends back 80% of it, whereas a white screen sends back 100%. Less ambient light means less wash out, noticeable especially in the blacks/shadows.

If the increase in brightness is achieved via a higher lamp mode this results in lower lamp life, higher noise, more heat, etc.

Some users don't recoup the remaining 20% and, or in the case of a 0.6 gain screen, recoup less and live with the image. It's somewhat acceptable because the human eye notices lowering the black level more than the decrease in top luminance.
So with a 0.8 screen they may go for some brightness increase to 0.9, and those with a 0.6 gain will do the same. The 0.6 gain would require more brightness increase. I'm mentioning this because the manufacturer claims may not be accurate, and the 0.8 gain you mentioned earlier might be lower.
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A grey screen of 0.8 gain for instance will send back 80% of the light. It will make the entire image darker, improving the blacks, but affecting the brightest whites and colors.

To offset this the brightness has to be increased by 20%. The only way to do this is by changing the lamp mode or by moving the projector closer to the screen.

If the brightness is increased by 20% the 0.8 screen will reflect the same amount of light as a white screen.

What happens next is the light bounces around the room, but because the screen is 0.8 gain it only sends back 80% of it, whereas a white screen sends back 100%. Less ambient light means less wash out, noticeable especially in the blacks/shadows.

If the increase in brightness is achieved via a higher lamp mode this results in lower lamp life, higher noise, more heat, etc.

Some users don't recoup the remaining 20% and, or in the case of a 0.6 gain screen, recoup less and live with the image. It's somewhat acceptable because the human eye notices lowering the black level more than the decrease in top luminance.
So with a 0.8 screen they may go for some brightness increase to 0.9, and those with a 0.6 gain will do the same. The 0.6 gain would require more brightness increase. I'm mentioning this because the manufacturer claims may not be accurate, and the 0.8 gain you mentioned earlier might be lower.
Would I better off with a 1.0 Cinegrey or a 1.1 Cinewhite?

I understand the whole 10% bouncing etc...
Bty I'm curious since they have the "Same" gain, which would give better colors?

Also considering there are no walls around the screen so bouncing light is not an issue.

Thank your for your help,

Last edited by Khar00f; 01-31-2020 at 10:33 PM.
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post #30 of 30 Old 01-31-2020, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khar00f View Post
Would I better off with a 1.0 Cinegrey or a 1.1 Cinewhite?

I understand the whole 10% bouncing etc...
Bty I'm curious since they have the "Same" gain, which would give better colors?

Also considering there are no walls around the screen so bouncing light is not an issue.

Thank your for your help,
The ceiling is a source of reflection.

If the gain is the same than the reflected image is the same.

As I mentioned earlier, manufacturer claims are not accurate. How can a grey screen without ALR properties be 1.0 gain? I had that 1.0 gain screen and it's definitely not 1.0.

None of the Silver ticket fabrics approach 0.8 gain:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58823388

I don't know of any independently measured grey screen with an 0.8-1.0 gain. You could "judge" by the shade of grey.
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