Why are all the OEMs using the 4 flash DLP? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Why are all the OEMs using the 4 flash DLP?

Seems like all the recently released projectors are using the small 4 flash chip which has poor contrast. Obviously contrast is king when it comes to home theater.

Is the better chip that much more expensive?

A projector like the LG HU70LA with the better chip would have been perfect IMO.

This market is so frustrating. All the components exists to make a really good projector that is inexpensive.

It's like OEMs are messing with us with technology crawl. Anyone else frustrated?
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
Seems like all the recently released projectors are using the small 4 flash chip which has poor contrast. Obviously contrast is king when it comes to home theater.

Is the better chip that much more expensive?

A projector like the LG HU70LA with the better chip would have been perfect IMO.

This market is so frustrating. All the components exists to make a really good projector that is inexpensive.

It's like OEMs are messing with us with technology crawl. Anyone else frustrated?
Some people think that image size, brightnes, sharpness, colour and various other attributes are also vitally important.

To gain the full benefit of a projector's maximum potential contrast, you have to have a fully treated theatre space, where the walls and ceiling are blacked out and the screen type and size is well matched to your projector. Most of us don't have such an optimal space, or if they do, they often prefer to watch some content with some degree of ambient lighting on in the room. Additionally, the actual achievable, on-screen contrast, even in an optimal room is less than what many people assume.

I think you mean the TI .47in XPR DMD. I guess that chip is less expensive, but being smaller it can fit into smaller cases, and importantly it can use smaller and, therefore, less expensive optics. However, there are a number of 4K DLP XPR projectors on the market that use the .67in XPR chip, although they tend to cost a bit more.

Additionally, there is a growing number of DLP bulb and laser projectors that use larger native 1080p or WUXGA ~.66in DMDs, that will accept 4K HDR signals and output 1080P HDR images, whilst retaining the full native contrast of the ~.66in DMD.
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post #3 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Some people think that image size, brightnes, sharpness, colour and various other attributes are also vitally important.

To gain the full benefit of a projector's maximum potential contrast, you have to have a fully treated theatre space, where the walls and ceiling are blacked out and the screen type and size is well matched to your projector. Most of us don't have such an optimal space, or if they do, they often prefer to watch some content with some degree of ambient lighting on in the room. Additionally, the actual achievable, on-screen contrast, even in an optimal room is less than what many people assume.

I think you mean the TI .47in XPR DMD. I guess that chip is less expensive, but being smaller it can fit into smaller cases, and importantly it can use smaller and, therefore, less expensive optics. However, there are a number of 4K DLP XPR projectors on the market that use the .67in XPR chip, although they tend to cost a bit more.

Additionally, there is a growing number of DLP bulb and laser projectors that use larger native 1080p or WUXGA ~.66in DMDs, that will accept 4K HDR signals and output 1080P HDR images, whilst retaining the full native contrast of the ~.66in DMD.
Right but projectors are designed to primary be used with the lights off and in that environment contrast can have the greatest impact on the image. For me I've just never seen a tech sector that always moves one step forward and one step back in terms of progress like projectors.

I've seen numbers on the 0.47 chip with contrast as low as 400/1. To me that is a massive step backwards in terms of progress. Well done TI for bringing 4k to the market but I don't understand why contrast, the most important metric regarding image quality, took such a massive leap backwards.

I was excited to see that Viewsonic is launching the X100-4k with the new led engine that looks to be designed for home theater (black chassis) but then found out it's using the lower contrast chip. Why in a large chassis?

My only point is that all the hardware exists to make a really good projector that can make a really great image for less than 2500 but it's like OEM's for some reason don't want to. When they launch a projector is always has a weakness instead of checking all the boxes. The LG HU70LA is the greatest example of this frustration for me. It has no bulb, no color wheel, almost P3 color, tone mapping, 4k, HDR 10, a TV tuner but poor contrast. Head banging against wall.

Come on OEMs. Someone launch a projector that checks all the boxes!
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
Right but projectors are designed to primary be used with the lights off and in that environment contrast can have the greatest impact on the image. For me I've just never seen a tech sector that always moves one step forward and one step back in terms of progress like projectors.

I've seen numbers on the 0.47 chip with contrast as low as 400/1. To me that is a massive step backwards in terms of progress. Well done TI for bringing 4k to the market but I don't understand why contrast, the most important metric regarding image quality, took such a massive leap backwards.

I was excited to see that Viewsonic is launching the X100-4k with the new led engine that looks to be designed for home theater (black chassis) but then found out it's using the lower contrast chip. Why in a large chassis?

My only point is that all the hardware exists to make a really good projector that can make a really great image for less than 2500 but it's like OEM's for some reason don't want to. When they launch a projector is always has a weakness instead of checking all the boxes. The LG HU70LA is the greatest example of this frustration for me. It has no bulb, no color wheel, almost P3 color, tone mapping, 4k, HDR 10, a TV tuner but poor contrast. Head banging against wall.

Come on OEMs. Someone launch a projector that checks all the boxes!
It takes a lot more than just having the lights off to enable a projector to show maximal contrast. In a room with lighter coloured walls, for example, contrast differences for typical content, are going to be minimal for most projectors.

These .47 xpr chips are used by a variety of OEMs, who produce projectors at a variety of price points, naturally some are better implemented than others (the best showing ~1000-1 native), however, the raw numbers can be misleading and many users find the LG HU70LA, for example, to meet their needs, despite it's seemingly low contrast measurements. This thread on the UHL55 is quite interesting:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l55-750-a.html

This reviewer tested the Viewsonic PK-747-4K and came away with on overall favourable impression, especially when it was paired with a suitable screen:
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/

I also find that a 4K source device, like the UB420, that can assist the projector in tone mapping 4K HDR content, can make a real difference in making all the available contrast watchable on a given projector.

There's a thread here on the Optoma ZH403 HDR laser projector that's worth reading:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...projector.html
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 12:57 PM
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Cost

These dlp do just about everything but contrast / black levels.

Projectors are mostly compromise.

Decide what is important to you:

1. Resolution/sharpness
2. Brightness/lummens
3. Bulb or Lazer/led
4. Black levels / contrast
5. Placement
6. Cost

With proper masking contrast is not as important as you might think. Ever been to a commercial movie theater? By this forums standards they have low contrast values but yet can entertain and are "watchable" for most people.
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post #6 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
It takes a lot more than just having the lights off to enable a projector to show maximal contrast. In a room with lighter coloured walls, for example, contrast differences for typical content, are going to be minimal for most projectors.

These .47 xpr chips are used by a variety of OEMs, who produce projectors at a variety of price points, naturally some are better implemented than others (the best showing ~1000-1 native), however, the raw numbers can be misleading and many users find the LG HU70LA, for example, to meet their needs, despite it's seemingly low contrast measurements. This thread on the UHL55 is quite interesting:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...l55-750-a.html

This reviewer tested the Viewsonic PK-747-4K and came away with on overall favourable impression, especially when it was paired with a suitable screen:
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/

I also find that a 4K source device, like the UB420, that can assist the projector in tone mapping 4K HDR content, can make a real difference in making all the available contrast watchable on a given projector.

There's a thread here on the Optoma ZH403 HDR laser projector that's worth reading:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...projector.html
Right but again my only argument is that all of the hardware is out there but no one wants to put all the pieces together for an affordable price. It really feels like deliberate technology creep to me. Ever since the DLP 4k chip was released around 3 years ago I have been waiting for someone to make a great projector for a reasonable price. Here's all I want.

1. No bulb.
2. At least P3 color.
3. Lens shift.
4. Black case.
5. Tone mapping.
6. Light source dimming (laser or led) based on metadata for high dynamic contrast.
7. 4k HDR.
8. Contrast at least 2000/1 static.
9. Low noise.
10. Less than 3000.00

Projector OEMs are just stuck in this low volume mindset. Someone break out of it and make a great projector for a reasonable price.
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post #7 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
Right but again my only argument is that all of the hardware is out there but no one wants to put all the pieces together for an affordable price. It really feels like deliberate technology creep to me. Ever since the DLP 4k chip was released around 3 years ago I have been waiting for someone to make a great projector for a reasonable price. Here's all I want.

1. No bulb.
2. At least P3 color.
3. Lens shift.
4. Black case.
5. Tone mapping.
6. Light source dimming (laser or led) based on metadata for high dynamic contrast.
7. 4k HDR.
8. Contrast at least 2000/1 static.
9. Low noise.
10. Less than 3000.00

Projector OEMs are just stuck in this low volume mindset. Someone break out of it and make a great projector for a reasonable price.
The Viewsonic X100-4k seems to check most of your boxes:

https://www.viewsonic.com/us/x100-4k.html

It states 125% of Rec709 which is ~90% of P3. Should be available soon.

The Optoma UHZ65 seems to do well, at a higher price.

Our very own sage11x measured the new BenQ TK850 as having ~85% P3 coverage as well as high brightness and good dynamic contrast. Using Smarteco, bulb life, at 15000hrs, rivals laser projectors.

There is also many new UST DLP projectors coming out and many of these have garnered outstanding reviews:

https://www.avsforum.com/wordpress/l...jector-review/

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post #8 of 21 Old 02-09-2020, 01:56 PM
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The biggest problem is your low price point demand.

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The biggest problem is your low price point demand.
There are numerous 1080p laser projectors, some with 4k/HDR support/lens shift for less than $2k.

The .65 1080p DLP chip cost more than .47 4K DLP chip.

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I haven’t seen a single projector below $5K that makes me happy regardless of technology.

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I haven’️t seen a single projector below $5K that makes me happy regardless of technology.
Not even the JVC NX5? What are you looking for?

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The NX5 black level is not deep enough. Heck, I use the NX7 and the black level is still not good enough for me. I still prefer the black level of my now-sold X790R over the NX7.

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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
I haven’t seen a single projector below $5K that makes me happy regardless of technology.
I found one display, the Sim2 Mico, that did everything I want except for that oled/dynamic iris lcos 0-2% apl blacks, but everything else it does with absolute perfection.

-10-15k dynamic contrast, virtually imperceptible. Excellent contrast over 2% apl
-600 lumens, though it looks very bright.
-native gamut is 185%bt709, 125% dci-p3, red hits the bt2020 target, greens at about 0.73.
-rgb led dlp, perfect color depth, no solarizations, no rbe, every pixel changes state at the exact same rate with 0 overshooting at approximately 0.01ms, perfect motion, perfect low level detail.
-sharp, refined, resolved, little to no chromatic abberation, high pixel fill, high ansi contrast
-low power usage, 270w max full white, 200w typical usage, 80w blanked(turns off leds), low heat output, low noise, no bulbs, infrequent to no recalibration.

If they ever add a two chip design to this light engine with rgb laser we'll have a perfect projector. But currently a comparable display does not exist, though I think the ht9060 would be if they used a non-xpr chip.
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But 600 Lumens is far from enough brightness to do HDR

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But 600 Lumens is far from enough brightness to do HDR
Or on larger screens. In my situation though sitting close to a smaller screen its perfect. With 600 lumens you can get 30fl on a 100" 1.3 gain screen, use madvrs tone mapping, and a 3dlut for the gamut. Not for everyone though i know... But that 600 is at the native gamut, and decreases at a significantly lower rate than a bulb. Perceived brightness due to the rgb dlp design and high yield diodes is well... bright.

In the vein of the thread, its strange that the current dlp projectors lack this refinement, the ht9060 should, wide gamut, high brightness, nice lens, but it seems the xpr chip does have a detrimental affect on video quality, sacrificing contrast and motion/video performance for resolution. If you had the Sim2 mico with extra lumens, hdmi2.0b, and dynamic tone mapping it should provide a captivating video experience, and provide a viable alternative to the low apl blacks of jvc.

A 1" 2160p chip might help by avoiding the shifting, a 1.4" chip the optics get too expensive. But really 1080p with this type of projector is going to look much sharper than 4k 3chip lcd/lcos due to:
-the single chip design free of misonvergence
-the high ansi contrast avoiding haloing
-the high color depth, perfect grayscale/gamma), and fast transit pixels
-benefits both but the lack of chromatic abberation due to the high quality lens

Theres hope for rgb laser to provide that video experience and with much higher brightness and a further expanded gamut(couple hundred nits and full bt2020). Sadly for contrast, however, the higher light output means lower contrast even with dynamic dimming, and contrast gains through lens improvements(sim2 hdr duo) are very expensive.

So write TI and tell them 2 give of us 2chip/2 TIR prism dlp (>_<) Because while we're probably not going to see liquid crystal match the pixel level performance, high contrast dlp does exist.
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The Viewsonic X100-4k seems to check most of your boxes:

https://www.viewsonic.com/us/x100-4k.html

It states 125% of Rec709 which is ~90% of P3. Should be available soon.

The Optoma UHZ65 seems to do well, at a higher price.

Our very own sage11x measured the new BenQ TK850 as having ~85% P3 coverage as well as high brightness and good dynamic contrast. Using Smarteco, bulb life, at 15000hrs, rivals laser projectors.

There is also many new UST DLP projectors coming out and many of these have garnered outstanding reviews:

https://www.avsforum.com/wordpress/l...jector-review/
But just to get back on point, what I'm referring to this one step forward one step back in terms of projector tech.

Great example is a laser projector just released by Epson, the EF-100. One great step forward with the laser. Well done Epson but then they put a 1280x800 chip in it. Whaaaaaaaa. Couldn't maybe had R&D working on putting a laser into the 5050UB instead of a low res projector?

TI introduces 4k to DLP. Well done TI but then the static contrast of the 4 flash chip is a quarter of what it once was and it becomes the preferred chip over the larger one. Head banging against wall.

No one else frustrated besides me?
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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
But just to get back on point, what I'm referring to this one step forward one step back in terms of projector tech.

Great example is a laser projector just released by Epson, the EF-100. One great step forward with the laser. Well done Epson but then they put a 1280x800 chip in it. Whaaaaaaaa. Couldn't maybe had R&D working on putting a laser into the 5050UB instead of a low res projector?

TI introduces 4k to DLP. Well done TI but then the static contrast of the 4 flash chip is a quarter of what it once was and it becomes the preferred chip over the larger one. Head banging against wall.

No one else frustrated besides me?
Compare the EF100 to the 8lb Optoma ZH403 laser that accepts 4K HDR input, with HDR 1080p output.

on-off contrast of the .47in XPR chip is reduced from the .65in 1080p chip, but not to a quarter. On-off on the .65in was 1600-1800-1, when well implemented with the range of tests scores for the ,47in XPR being about 500-1000-1, while the best implementation of of the .47XPR shows about 1200-1 (Optoma P1) and about 1000-1 in a recent UHD40 test. OTOH, dynamic contrast has increased, along with bulb life, through dynamic lamp dimming.
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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post

No one else frustrated besides me?
I don’t know if I’m fully in the frustration camp, but then again I’m still quite satisfied with 1080p HD and a RGBRGB .65” DLP dark chip 3 configured 1080p projector. I have little desire for 4k media and about the same desire for HDR color gamut. I’m 64 years old and what I have far exceeds what I have been watching for 55 years in commercial movie theaters and I always loved it.

Will I move to 4k HDR front projection? I’m sure I will if I live long enough and by then hopefully the price will be down and the problems fixed. I’m a late adopter and in being one I’m always more blown away than anyone when I make the jump.

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Sounds like the only way he'll be satisfied is the Christie Ultimate projector, but it will cost the same as a decent sized home, and you'll need a huge room to store it in.

You just have to leave DLP behind or spend obscene amounts.

The next best way to be truly satisfied is to buy multiple projectors in the used or refurb markets, and do a double or triple projector setup. Get you a JVC for those darker movies and a refurb DLP or used for stuff with mostly only bright scenes in it.

Used RS-500/520/540 will provide great contrast, a bit lacking in 24p motion fluidity as all LCOS and LCD are IMO, but that's usually not an issue on most things. DLP does fast action better generally speaking.

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Used RS-500/520/540 will provide great contrast, a bit lacking in 24p motion fluidity as all LCOS and LCD are IMO, but that's usually not an issue on most things. DLP does fast action better generally speaking.
All things considered, D-ILA is great performing liquid crystal, <2.5ms black to white, refreshed at 96hz for 24p content, 120hz for 60p. Excellent really.

Watch something like From Hell on a JVC and I think you'd vastly prefer the image to a DLP, as the movie is 99% low apl and swathes of pure black. But watch something like Ladyhawke and it's vice versa, as the low apl scenes are devoid of black and there's swathes of moving color. There's a shot in a fall forest, daytime with no direct sunlight, very low apl around 1-2%, the camera is panning and DLP manages to keep the intricate detail of the forest floor, leaves, trees, completely intact, no smearing, blurring, ghosting, softening, perfect video rendering. But play From Hell, with the lights off, even with a dark grey screen, and find yourself pining for dila/oled ;]

Here's a great writeup comparing display technologies if you're interested
http://&#91;http://www.displaymate.com/L...Out_Part_A.htm

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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
No one else frustrated besides me?
If I can have a retractable display in a bedroom with the level of video fidelity I'm at now for under $2,000(projector and screen) then there's no reason to be frustrated though. HDR is still rather new, we're very close to consumer rgb laser which will really help UHD content. I understand the current market of budget projectors feels more expensive than they should simply for a 4k moniker, but there are still lots of options available to us, lots of very good options at very reasonable prices.

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Originally Posted by blueocean27 View Post
1. No bulb.
2. At least P3 color.
3. Lens shift.
4. Black case.
5. Tone mapping.
6. Light source dimming (laser or led) based on metadata for high dynamic contrast.
7. 4k HDR.
8. Contrast at least 2000/1 static.
9. Low noise.
10. Less than 3000.00
But yes, the display that would check off your boxes should exist, not as 4k, but everything else. I've got a couple projectors that have those qualities except for the dynamic tone mapping and resolution, and they came out 5-10 years ago =/ The dynamic tone mapping is very new though, it was only just introduced to JVC units via firmware, and I'd think it's something we'll be seeing as standard over the next few years. For 4k dlp though... tricky tricky!
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post #21 of 21 Old 02-10-2020, 07:04 PM
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I have 4 DLP's here and 2 JVC's, need to get rid of some of this stuff though soon. I agree DLP's are better at motion resolution, but I don't watch as much action stuff as I used to. JVC's handle motion ok until the motion gets very fast or erratic, then things become a total mess at times.

Some of it depends on the source too though, some movies have horrid motion regardless of which projector you watch it on. So not all the time you see "bad motion" is it guaranteed to be the projector, sometimes it is the way they shot the scene or the camera they used (or camera settings).

That said, I agree that is the one weakness of LCOS, motion on fast content. Also, some projectors pan smoother than others, but this isn't so much based on tech than it is implementation, unless it's a fast pan in which LCOS will again break up.

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