Epson 4010 vs Optoma UHD50X or.. suggestions? (Canadian) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 42 Old 05-19-2020, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trapani View Post
For sure. Let me attach some movie photos for you from the 3800 and if you could INCREASE the contrast from what I'm showing you then holy heck

Remember though for super fast motion like you want on sports, this equation is going to change.

What they say about the motion processing is somewhat true and the Epson you will have to trade some quality if you want to keep the fluid smooth

This is an example of what you could have happen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF_bgS8Ujbw

I haven't personally noticed it yet although I also haven't run a test like this..
Wow, those do look great! I just don't want to lose the Ultra Black due to the room not being completely treated. From what I've seen so far, unless it's treated you aren't really going to see any of that extra feature. Unfortunately, in my area, I won't be able to completely treat it. I will be able to do paint, furniture, but the roof will still be white and there is space behind me with a rest of the area in the basement.

I will also attach a photo of the area I'm working with, as noob might have an easier time recommending if he can see where it is going.

I've also found an online store selling the 5050UB for $3200 which is much better than the $4000. Would still love to see it in the $2000s, maybe that will happen during sale time. I guess I do have a little bit of time on my side at the very least.
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post #32 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 02:38 AM
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A projector with good blacks will still show good blacks in dark scenes. But as the image grows brighter the wall reflections will affect the image.

The area that will benefit the most if treated is ~5' around the screen, including screen wall.
https://imgur.com/a/fx9kOU4

But the ceiling is a problem. The paint does not have to be black, a dark shade will do. How about a curtain type system like in the facebook video in a previous post?


As I mentioned a few times, there is a way to help with room reflections, and that is a screen with ALR properties. You can either buy one or better yet paint the wall or a cheap screen. But the image will still benefit from treatment, even with an ALR screen.

Paints are customizable, but for an ALR screen the projector would have to be placed ~16.5' lens to screen. From the floor plan it looks like there is enough room.


If you can get the 5050UB. If the room cannot/will not be treated maybe get the HC3800.

There is another alternative. A refurbished 5040UB from Epson. Basically a 5050UB with a 10GB HDMI and not great HDR tone mapping.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...-151-00-a.html

The tone mapping can be solved with a Panasonic UB420/820/9000. Or a HTPC (no streaming). But for applications that require 60Hz in 4K HDR they will either not work or have banding in solid colors like blue skies. I mentioned all this on the previous page, you'll need a HDFury linker to drop the bit depth.

No deal talk on this sub forum, only MSRP.

Last edited by noob00224; 05-20-2020 at 02:43 AM.
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post #33 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
A projector with good blacks will still show good blacks in dark scenes. But as the image grows brighter the wall reflections will affect the image.

The area that will benefit the most if treated is ~5' around the screen, including screen wall.
https://imgur.com/a/fx9kOU4

But the ceiling is a problem. The paint does not have to be black, a dark shade will do. How about a curtain type system like in the facebook video in a previous post?


As I mentioned a few times, there is a way to help with room reflections, and that is a screen with ALR properties. You can either buy one or better yet paint the wall or a cheap screen. But the image will still benefit from treatment, even with an ALR screen.

Paints are customizable, but for an ALR screen the projector would have to be placed ~16.5' lens to screen. From the floor plan it looks like there is enough room.


If you can get the 5050UB. If the room cannot/will not be treated maybe get the HC3800.

There is another alternative. A refurbished 5040UB from Epson. Basically a 5050UB with a 10GB HDMI and not great HDR tone mapping.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...-151-00-a.html

The tone mapping can be solved with a Panasonic UB420/820/9000. Or a HTPC (no streaming). But for applications that require 60Hz in 4K HDR they will either not work or have banding in solid colors like blue skies. I mentioned all this on the previous page, you'll need a HDFury linker to drop the bit depth.

No deal talk on this sub forum, only MSRP.
As in the attached picture, I’ll probably be able to get the three surrounding walls dark (Bedroom wall, screen wall, and exterior wall). The carpet is dark and the couch will be dark as well. Wife might be a bit of a tough sell to get the ceiling dark but I will keep it as a priority.

When dealing with the screen, why does the ALR screen cause the projector to have to be further back? The electrical is already ran and my outlet for ceiling mount is 13’ back from the projection wall. Is it safe to say that every projector will benefit from an ALR screen? I was planning to get the Silver Ticket 120”. In my situation, would you recommend a grey or white screen?

I think the 60Hz is important for those new streaming service as it will probably annoy me not being able to stream the 4K content without extra steps. I think I will count out the 4010 and return it and wait for a sale on either the 5050UB or the 3800 in the fall. Between those two, and being able to see the room, it seems like the 3800 might be the best bang for my buck. Sorry about mentioning price, just having to take that into consideration, especially if I’ll be spending more on the screen now.
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post #34 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
A projector with good blacks will still show good blacks in dark scenes. But as the image grows brighter the wall reflections will affect the image.

The area that will benefit the most if treated is ~5' around the screen, including screen wall.
https://imgur.com/a/fx9kOU4

But the ceiling is a problem. The paint does not have to be black, a dark shade will do. How about a curtain type system like in the facebook video in a previous post?


As I mentioned a few times, there is a way to help with room reflections, and that is a screen with ALR properties. You can either buy one or better yet paint the wall or a cheap screen. But the image will still benefit from treatment, even with an ALR screen.

Paints are customizable, but for an ALR screen the projector would have to be placed ~16.5' lens to screen. From the floor plan it looks like there is enough room.


If you can get the 5050UB. If the room cannot/will not be treated maybe get the HC3800.

There is another alternative. A refurbished 5040UB from Epson. Basically a 5050UB with a 10GB HDMI and not great HDR tone mapping.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...-151-00-a.html

The tone mapping can be solved with a Panasonic UB420/820/9000. Or a HTPC (no streaming). But for applications that require 60Hz in 4K HDR they will either not work or have banding in solid colors like blue skies. I mentioned all this on the previous page, you'll need a HDFury linker to drop the bit depth.

No deal talk on this sub forum, only MSRP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaseus View Post
As in the attached picture, I’ll probably be able to get the three surrounding walls dark (Bedroom wall, screen wall, and exterior wall). The carpet is dark and the couch will be dark as well. Wife might be a bit of a tough sell to get the ceiling dark but I will keep it as a priority.

When dealing with the screen, why does the ALR screen cause the projector to have to be further back? The electrical is already ran and my outlet for ceiling mount is 13’ back from the projection wall. Is it safe to say that every projector will benefit from an ALR screen? I was planning to get the Silver Ticket 120”. In my situation, would you recommend a grey or white screen?

I think the 60Hz is important for those new streaming service as it will probably annoy me not being able to stream the 4K content without extra steps. I think I will count out the 4010 and return it and wait for a sale on either the 5050UB or the 3800 in the fall. Between those two, and being able to see the room, it seems like the 3800 might be the best bang for my buck. Sorry about mentioning price, just having to take that into consideration, especially if I’ll be spending more on the screen now.

I'm with Jaseus here.. Why does an ALR have to have a precise distance to screen if the zoom/focus/shift is adjustable?

Also, is there a good value brand? The only names I hear repeated are Silver Ticket and Elite Screens

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post #35 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 01:43 PM
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If you have a suitable wall, then wall paint is the way to go, IMHO. Having a fixed screen makes a dual projector setup more difficult.
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post #36 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I may have said something that was confusing.

I’m only looking to have one ceiling mounted projector.
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post #37 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 04:04 PM
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Sorry, I may have said something that was confusing.

I’m only looking to have one ceiling mounted projector.
Sure, but it still makes a dual setup easier and it makes it easier to change projected image size or aspect ratio. My projected screen size is 145in, but the entire wall (14.5ft x 8ft) is painted with the same grey. The other thing this aids with is that minor keystone errors are not visible, where a fixed screen requires perfect image alignment to match the screen.
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post #38 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaseus View Post
As in the attached picture, I’ll probably be able to get the three surrounding walls dark (Bedroom wall, screen wall, and exterior wall). The carpet is dark and the couch will be dark as well. Wife might be a bit of a tough sell to get the ceiling dark but I will keep it as a priority.

When dealing with the screen, why does the ALR screen cause the projector to have to be further back? The electrical is already ran and my outlet for ceiling mount is 13’ back from the projection wall. Is it safe to say that every projector will benefit from an ALR screen? I was planning to get the Silver Ticket 120”. In my situation, would you recommend a grey or white screen?

I think the 60Hz is important for those new streaming service as it will probably annoy me not being able to stream the 4K content without extra steps. I think I will count out the 4010 and return it and wait for a sale on either the 5050UB or the 3800 in the fall. Between those two, and being able to see the room, it seems like the 3800 might be the best bang for my buck. Sorry about mentioning price, just having to take that into consideration, especially if I’ll be spending more on the screen now.
Angular ALR screens are like a mirror. If the projector is too close the light beam from the center will reflect back towards the viewer, but the sides will have an angle that is further away from the viewer's position. This will result in the edges being dimmer than the center:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59510494
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59510522

And these:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post59134308

As it's noted in the post, cameras can mask the hotspot effect. With time it will be noticeable. If there are a lot of bright screens, it will be more noticeable. I highly recommend the projector be placed further back.
Sparkle will also appear in the center of the screen in bright scenes, which is not captured in those clips.

With an 120" and 13' lens to screen the throw ratio is ~1.34x. But if the mount is at 13' the lens would be closer to the screen.

With angular ALRs there must be no source of light from the same direction as the projector.

Many ALR screens have a grey base which deepens the blacks and in combination with the reflective film increases contrast. ALR screens can also become dimmer as you move further away from the central axis. A 40 degree half gain means that at that angle the screen is half as bright as when viewed from the central axis.

If the projector can't be placed further back I don't know if the visual artifacts are acceptable. While ALR screens will help with some ambient light for when viewing sports for example, don't know if it's worth the drawbacks. I would not get one unless the projector can be mounted at 1.9x throw ratio.

Not any projector can take advantage of ALR screens, they must have the throw ratio and be placed at it to avoid artifacts.

Easiest solution here is to treat the room and get a white screen. Even if the ceiling is not treated. Grey screens will dim the entire image especially the bright whites and colors, so I don't know if you'll like it.

ALR screens are from Elite (Cinegrey 3D and 5D) and Silverticket High Contrast Grey. The Elite are better quality. Also available in fabric only is from Carl's. Elite's are also available in fabric form, which can be mounted on a wooden frame to reduce cost.

Samples are available from these manufacturers.

As also mentioned several times are paints. Paints can have ALR properties and the entire wall can be painted. Or paint a cheap white screen. Since paints are customizable you can set it so it does not have hotspots/sparkle.

Last edited by noob00224; 05-20-2020 at 06:34 PM.
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post #39 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Angular ALR screens are like a mirror. If the projector is too close the light beam from the center will reflect back towards the viewer, but the sides will have an angle that is further away from the viewer's position. This will result in the edges being dimmer than the center:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59510494
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59510522

And these:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post59134308

As it's noted in the post, cameras can mask the hotspot effect. With time it will be noticeable. If there are a lot of bright screens, it will be more noticeable. I highly recommend the projector be placed further back.
Sparkle will also appear in the center of the screen in bright scenes, which is not captured in those clips.

With an 120" and 13' lens to screen the throw ratio is ~1.34x. But if the mount is at 13' the lens would be closer to the screen.

With angular ALRs there must be no source of light from the same direction as the projector.

Many ALR screens have a grey base which deepens the blacks and in combination with the reflective film increases contrast. ALR screens can also become dimmer as you move further away from the central axis. A 40 degree half gain means that at that angle the screen is half as bright as when viewed from the central axis.

If the projector can't be placed further back I don't know if the visual artifacts are acceptable. While ALR screens will help with some ambient light for when viewing sports for example, don't know if it's worth the drawbacks. I would not get one unless the projector can be mounted at 1.9x throw ratio.

Not any projector can take advantage of ALR screens, they must have the throw ratio and be placed at it to avoid artifacts.

Easiest solution here is to treat the room and get a white screen. Even if the ceiling is not treated. Grey screens will dim the entire image especially the bright whites and colors, so I don't know if you'll like it.

ALR screens are from Elite (Cinegrey 3D and 5D) and Silverticket High Contrast Grey. The Elite are better quality. Also available in fabric only is from Carl's. Elite's are also available in fabric form, which can be mounted on a wooden frame to reduce cost.

Samples are available from these manufacturers.

As also mentioned several times are paints. Paints can have ALR properties and the entire wall can be painted. Or paint a cheap white screen. Since paints are customizable you can set it so it does not have hotspots/sparkle.
I did not realize you could get hot spots, but I suppose that make sense with the ALR and the fact projected light would reflect back. There is definitely much more of an art to this than I would have assumed. Trust me, I would have loved to have a completely dedicated theater room with one door and completely black it out. Unfortunately, I will have to work with what I've got. I'm honestly not sure I would be able to move back that much further as I would not really want the cords to be running along the length of the ceiling. I could definitely do it around 14' or make sure that the lens to screen was at least 13', that wouldn't be a problem. Then the zoom would be around 1.44x (on the Epson 3800). 16' will probably be too far back for me to mount it, unfortunately.

It would be my preference to have the screen as I also think it completes the look of the area as opposed to having just a blank painted wall. I'm assuming I would be able to use the recommended paints to treat the room, which I would definitely do. I realize that you know a heck of a lot more about this then I do. That being said, with seeing my area and knowing I can partially treat it, what would you do if you were me?

From all of this information, I am getting that I should choose the Epson 3800 from 14' (or as far back as possible), treat the three walls with specific AVR paint, and to not get an ALR screen but instead to just get the plain white. This confuses me a bit as I thought that the increased brightness of the 3800 + not completely light controlled + grey screen would be best. However, if I was able to mount further back and treat the room completely (Curtains, walls, roof) the Epson 5050 would be a great choice with the AVR screen in grey for greater contrast and even deeper blacks? This will once again come down to budget for me, if the 5050 is for sale in the fall I will purchase that. If not, I think I will have to go with the 3800. I just want to get the best possible set up for my area given its limitations.

Apologies for babbling a bit, you're providing a lot of information I'm attempting to process to see what would be best for me.
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post #40 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaseus View Post
Sorry, I may have said something that was confusing.

I’m only looking to have one ceiling mounted projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Sure, but it still makes a dual setup easier and it makes it easier to change projected image size or aspect ratio. My projected screen size is 145in, but the entire wall (14.5ft x 8ft) is painted with the same grey. The other thing this aids with is that minor keystone errors are not visible, where a fixed screen requires perfect image alignment to match the screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaseus View Post
I did not realize you could get hot spots, but I suppose that make sense with the ALR and the fact projected light would reflect back. There is definitely much more of an art to this than I would have assumed. Trust me, I would have loved to have a completely dedicated theater room with one door and completely black it out. Unfortunately, I will have to work with what I've got. I'm honestly not sure I would be able to move back that much further as I would not really want the cords to be running along the length of the ceiling. I could definitely do it around 14' or make sure that the lens to screen was at least 13', that wouldn't be a problem. Then the zoom would be around 1.44x (on the Epson 3800). 16' will probably be too far back for me to mount it, unfortunately.

It would be my preference to have the screen as I also think it completes the look of the area as opposed to having just a blank painted wall. I'm assuming I would be able to use the recommended paints to treat the room, which I would definitely do. I realize that you know a heck of a lot more about this then I do. That being said, with seeing my area and knowing I can partially treat it, what would you do if you were me?

From all of this information, I am getting that I should choose the Epson 3800 from 14' (or as far back as possible), treat the three walls with specific AVR paint, and to not get an ALR screen but instead to just get the plain white. This confuses me a bit as I thought that the increased brightness of the 3800 + not completely light controlled + grey screen would be best. However, if I was able to mount further back and treat the room completely (Curtains, walls, roof) the Epson 5050 would be a great choice with the AVR screen in grey for greater contrast and even deeper blacks? This will once again come down to budget for me, if the 5050 is for sale in the fall I will purchase that. If not, I think I will have to go with the 3800. I just want to get the best possible set up for my area given its limitations.

Apologies for babbling a bit, you're providing a lot of information I'm attempting to process to see what would be best for me.
Completely (in regards to hot spotting and painting)... This was my first go at painting. Entirely too much sheen.

Behr 7754 Medium Base Interior Satin Enamel was what I eventually settled on (until I find something else cheap)
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post #41 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 09:42 PM
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Completely (in regards to hot spotting and painting)... This was my first go at painting. Entirely too much sheen.

Behr 7754 Medium Base Interior Satin Enamel was what I eventually settled on (until I find something else cheap)
I used Roscoe TVwhite:

https://ca.rosco.com/en/product/tv-paint
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post #42 of 42 Old 05-20-2020, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaseus View Post
I did not realize you could get hot spots, but I suppose that make sense with the ALR and the fact projected light would reflect back. There is definitely much more of an art to this than I would have assumed. Trust me, I would have loved to have a completely dedicated theater room with one door and completely black it out. Unfortunately, I will have to work with what I've got. I'm honestly not sure I would be able to move back that much further as I would not really want the cords to be running along the length of the ceiling. I could definitely do it around 14' or make sure that the lens to screen was at least 13', that wouldn't be a problem. Then the zoom would be around 1.44x (on the Epson 3800). 16' will probably be too far back for me to mount it, unfortunately.

It would be my preference to have the screen as I also think it completes the look of the area as opposed to having just a blank painted wall. I'm assuming I would be able to use the recommended paints to treat the room, which I would definitely do. I realize that you know a heck of a lot more about this then I do. That being said, with seeing my area and knowing I can partially treat it, what would you do if you were me?

From all of this information, I am getting that I should choose the Epson 3800 from 14' (or as far back as possible), treat the three walls with specific AVR paint, and to not get an ALR screen but instead to just get the plain white. This confuses me a bit as I thought that the increased brightness of the 3800 + not completely light controlled + grey screen would be best. However, if I was able to mount further back and treat the room completely (Curtains, walls, roof) the Epson 5050 would be a great choice with the AVR screen in grey for greater contrast and even deeper blacks? This will once again come down to budget for me, if the 5050 is for sale in the fall I will purchase that. If not, I think I will have to go with the 3800. I just want to get the best possible set up for my area given its limitations.

Apologies for babbling a bit, you're providing a lot of information I'm attempting to process to see what would be best for me.
If you can get the 5050, even if the room is untreated. If not the 3800

You can get a cheap white screen and paint it. The paint for the screen and for the walls are different kinds on paints. For the walls a simple paint can be used. For the screen a simple paint can also be used, but there are mixes which will increase picture quality and blacks, as well as have ALR properties if desired.

Here is an example of paint for walls:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post58982020

For screen paint create a new thread here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/

Example of paint mix with the 5050:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...iy-screen.html


A simple matte grey negative gain screen will dim the overall image. To bring it to the brightness of a white 1.0 gain screen the brightness has to be increased either by switching lamp modes or placing the projector closer. After doing this the image on the grey screen will be the same brightness as on the white screen, but any light that bounces around the room between the screen and walls will be reduced due to the grey screen's negative gain.

If the room is not treated maybe look into a light grey screen and an 5050/3800, if paint mix for the screen is not possible.

Do get the sample packs. They are not expensive and will give you an idea of white/grey screen look like:
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...terial-samples
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