Gamers who have owned previous PJ's, what would you buy today? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Gamers who have owned previous PJ's, what would you buy today?

So I run a 1080p Sony 50ES projector, I've gotten accustomed to the image quality of SXRD after years of DLP's with color wheels at 720p. The problem is now I'm getting more accustomed to my 65" Sony with the HDR turned on........and in gaming those colors tend to punch. My Sony is probably 6 years old at this point, I picked it up for just a hair over $3k as a refurb and it's never given me a problem, now on its 3rd lamp..or 4th? and doing just fine. Lamps went from $350 to $80 (not official sonys but at this point who cares)........and I'm starting to see some yellowing on whites, these panels weren't meant to last forever....was thinking of going with Sony's $5k entry in the 4k lineup but then realized it was a lot of money to spend when I should consider something not quite as expensive.

I would imagine the black levels of my 1080p SXRD from 2014 are not as good as maybe modern LCD's? Or at least on par....plus I want the wide color gamuts and the possibility of some HDR punchiness......hence this post.

If you wanted to spend about $3k, WWYD today? The Sony is more expensive, has no auto-iris, and honestly its a bit of money. Are the Epson's with the UltraBlack moniker still worth considering? Any major problems with the go-to brands these days?

Input Lag is pretty important, it doesn't have to be great but it can't be worse than the Sony I own which, I want to say, is in the 25ms territory...maybe its 30, half a second.....good enough to do KBM at 60fps and certainly no problem using a joypad with those timings, I don't need 120fps inputs or the like.

Suggestions from the gamers in the audience?

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post #2 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 03:47 PM
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I have a JVC X790 and play COD warzone a ton and I have not experienced any lag issues. A good friend of mine also games on his setup, he's using an Epson 5050UB and loves it. If I had your budget I'd be looking at the 5050UB for sure, it does great HDR, sharp image, great contrast and low input lag.

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post #3 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 04:00 PM
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Epson 5050UB

If I had been able to find a new in box JVC x790 for what I paid for the 5050UB I would have gone that route but I couldn't (best deal I could find at the time was substantially more $).

I owned a Sony HW45ES, BenQ HT3550, Epson 3800, Epson 4010 all right before the 5050UB.

- Jason

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post #4 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, Is the 5050UB a 4k panel or is it faux-k?

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post #5 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 07:52 PM
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At this point theres very little projectors at that price or over that will give proper punch for HDR gaming like an LCD panel can. Its just not in the technology. I would seriosuly consider a large LCD for HDR gaming. Or at least demo the projector before purchasing. I do all my HDR gaming on a 65" 4K LG OLED.
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post #6 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
Thanks guys, Is the 5050UB a 4k panel or is it faux-k?
It's not native 4K, it's a pixel shifter (2x 1080p unlike XPR DLP that is 4x).

- Jason

HT = Epson 5050ub @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Sony x800 / Panasonic UB820 VOTE BLUE
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post #7 of 29 Old 05-19-2020, 08:17 PM
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Here's an example maybe (to the point of HDR)

I'm testing DLP (left) VS 3LCD (right) right now and the colors get really washed out on the DLP machine and IDK if I can take it after going through the effort to set up a rig like this

It's what you'd have to do to find out though...

Look at the coloration in the wood as I'm playing Read Dead II

I've been tuning both machines constantly...

DLP touts higher resolution but at what cost? Wood should look like wood?

Edit: That's an Optoma UHD50x on the left screen and an Epson Home Cinema 3800 on the right screen
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapani View Post
Here's an example maybe (to the point of HDR)

I'm testing DLP (left) VS 3LCD (right) right now and the colors get really washed out on the DLP machine and IDK if I can take it after going through the effort to set up a rig like this

It's what you'd have to do to find out though...

Look at the coloration in the wood as I'm playing Read Dead II

I've been tuning both machines constantly...

DLP touts higher resolution but at what cost? Wood should look like wood?
Without you at least saying which models they are, I don't really know what you expect anyone to say?
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post #9 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
It's not native 4K, it's a pixel shifter (2x 1080p unlike XPR DLP that is 4x).

- Jason

Ok so its more like a 1440p native rez versus a full 4k, but it's one of those "are you really going to notice" kinda things......


PS: To the poster who commented on the DLP situation above, are you running your PJ in Eco Mode to tone-down the lamp especially if its a new bulb...and also don't be afraid to bump your color saturation up a bit, play with the settings. Particularly in gaming, ignore things like calibrated mode "idealism" and such....I've never had a game that didn't look better by simply bumping up the COLOR slider from 50 to 53 or 54, HDR or not.

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post #10 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russellhk View Post
Without you at least saying which models they are, I don't really know what you expect anyone to say?
It's the UHD50x and Epson HC3800.

@HeadRusch

The Sony has good motion handling and contrast. Epson 5000/6000 series has similar contrast but it's 3LCD, so not as good motion handling.

As others have said, color volume on a projector can't match a TV. Also the larger the screen the dimmer it will be. Some projectors cover more or less of the DCI P3 gamut, but for 100% for most projector a filter is required which drastically reduces brightness.

There are a few laser models but are still 1080p. Typical DLP black level. Rec.709. Some USTs have better contrast, low lag, but are very expensive.


How large is the screen and what fabric?

Seating distance?

Color of walls? Ambient light?

LE:
Sharpness/detail perception is more than what kind of 4K technology is used.

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post #11 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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@noob , yep, that's why I've been sitting on the 50es......it's still good enough, and those bulbs are dirt cheap now......but...you know....upgrade bug, etc....

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post #12 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russellhk View Post
Without you at least saying which models they are, I don't really know what you expect anyone to say?
Good point, edited my post to include that

Its an Optoma UHD50x on the left and an Epson Home Cinema 3800 on the right.

I did motion testing last night and uploaded it to youtube if you guys would like to see the side by side on that

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post #13 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Trapani View Post
Good point, edited my post to include that

Its an Optoma UHD50x on the left and an Epson Home Cinema 3800 on the right.

I did motion testing last night and uploaded it to youtube if you guys would like to see the side by side on that
Not bad for the Epson, but not good either.

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post #14 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Not bad for the Epson, but not good either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFmGl9KUwuE
For comparison purposes BTW the enhanced game mode is set to OFF for the Optoma as I found it was reducing resolution (I did a comparison there too) and yes it will still tell you 2160p whether it's on or off

Changing the mode will kill that lag as the drone flips over about halfway thru the video on the left. It doesn't seem to speed up the processing though, just kills the lag.

Epson has motion processing set to "fast" which you will absolutely need cut down the motion blur.
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post #15 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 09:30 AM
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For closest to best in class, I would look to spend a bit more on the JVC RS540 which can be had for under $4K (I know, wrong forum) or the actual native 4K SXRD projectors.

A big issue could be input lag, which Sony has excelled at over the years. I'm not sure how the RS540 or their native 4K models measure up.

The black levels and image quality with full support of HDMI 2.0 on these models is really nice and the contrast will be second to none.

You aren't going to get that same level from the Epson, but it is a solid purchase option which comes closest to LCoS technology without actually being LCoS like Sony and JVC use.

I would never go to LCD or DLP after using LCoS. It's really a step backwards IMO.

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post #16 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
For closest to best in class, I would look to spend a bit more on the JVC RS540 which can be had for under $4K (I know, wrong forum) or the actual native 4K SXRD projectors.

A big issue could be input lag, which Sony has excelled at over the years. I'm not sure how the RS540 or their native 4K models measure up.

The black levels and image quality with full support of HDMI 2.0 on these models is really nice and the contrast will be second to none.

You aren't going to get that same level from the Epson, but it is a solid purchase option which comes closest to LCoS technology without actually being LCoS like Sony and JVC use.

I would never go to LCD or DLP after using LCoS. It's really a step backwards IMO.
That's really good to know because I want to return one of these and invest in something more serious down the road when I have a better home setup so thank you.

Is LCoS decent for motion blur (these days)?

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post #17 of 29 Old 05-20-2020, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapani View Post
Good point, edited my post to include that

Its an Optoma UHD50x on the left and an Epson Home Cinema 3800 on the right.

I did motion testing last night and uploaded it to youtube if you guys would like to see the side by side on that
Ah ok, I'm not an expert but I'm not a novice either. The DLP you have does not have a pure RGB wheel, it has a white segment to boost lumens, which of course comes at the overall expense of colour accuracy. Gross simplication obviously! In fact I have a TK800 which also boost lumens via colour wheel. FWIW most of my content is 4k video games (from a high spec PC) in a room which is not light controlled, hence my choice of projector.
If you compared the 3LCD to something like a HT3350 (or whatever is RGBRGB etc) then it would be a better comparison as far as colours as concerned.

I'll check out the video though, thanks for posting that.
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post #18 of 29 Old 05-21-2020, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm assuming that JVC has solved their input lag situation which was an issue when I picked up the HW50ES years ago......I'll look into that JVC if that's the case. I don't mind gaming on the TV but you know...65"...its so damned small

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post #19 of 29 Old 05-21-2020, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
So I'm assuming that JVC has solved their input lag situation which was an issue when I picked up the HW50ES years ago......I'll look into that JVC if that's the case. I don't mind gaming on the TV but you know...65"...its so damned small
The x790r is claimed to be sub 40ms (HDTV Test / Vincent measured lower on a comparable European model but not sure if his test was flawed), so it's much better than previous gen JVC's but not nearly as good as the 5050UB that is low 20's (it feels as fast or faster than the Sony HW45es that I owned).

As a hardcore gamer I am very sensitive to lag and used a dual projection setup for several years while I had my JVC that was 70ms+ (always used ~16ms DLP as the 'game' projector). I wanted the x790r for an all around unit but figured I could toss up a cheap gaming DLP along side it if that ~40ms didn't cut it (I knew the JVC would deliver the best video presentation).

While I miss certain aspects of gaming on a DLP (best in class motion) I can say that the 5050UB is excellent for 4K 60Hz gaming. The combination of low input lag and image quality cannot be beat at its price point.

- Jason

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post #20 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 01:34 AM
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i have had before ; BenQ 1080st, Sony HW45es, Optoma UHD60. and now i own JVC RS440 / BenQ lk970.

for gaming the BenQ lk970 destroys every other projector i had / have, so if u would like a similar projector with better color coverage/native HDR, the BenQ HT9060 it is . these projector are extremly sharp because of their stunning lens coupled with 0.65 chipset. they are e-shifters but believe me even next to my 55inch c6 oled desktop at 4k looks just as clean/sharp with dpi 150 and in games its literally like a big 4k tv panel. i am always mesmerized of the image i get with PC gaming ultra settings, mainly due to 5000lumens too and like some said u can bump the color setting a little, dont worry alot about calibration for games.
both MSRP are way beyond ur budget but the street prices can be surprisingly low and u can find it in ur price range.
and dont forget these are laser/led projectors so u can play as much as u like without worrying much about lamp life.

other than that if u can go to the native 4k u have to increase ur budget.

what i can tell you from going back and forth between LK970 and RS440 is that u shouldnt consider RS540 if u want very crisp clean 4k image, every time i switch projector there is a very noticeable downgrade in that area. with PC/4k gaming the difference in clarity is drastic!! with movies not so much, so pay attention to this area.

here is quick pictures of me playing Assassin Creed and Witcher 3 at 4k:60 ,my phone camera is in bad shape and the actual image is a lot more cleaner but just so you can get an idea.

u might want to open the image in a new tab.
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post #21 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 02:28 AM
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I would buy a TV for games and a projector for movies.

Back in my early days of projectors I had CRT which had burn in danger and Video Games were a solid no.

Now digital projectors don't get burn in and the advent of wireless controllers means you can also play in the dark rooms designed for projectors.

But,... I still like being able to see the entire screen while gaming better than having to look around on a giant screen.

And.... really, I don't play anymore at least for now... but I find TVs better suited for Video Games... Pretty much the only thing I would something like a TV for.

I have a VGTV.... it's not even high end... I think it was under $200 for an LG 43" 1080p set when I bought it years ago.

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post #22 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't really watch many movies anymore....not much comes out that I care about at this point in time, it's all about the gaming now....and I gotta say its kinda cool when your characters are 1:3 scale and car cockpits are basically bigger than life size ......that's why I was entertaining a 'brighter but less accurate" PJ for gaming, my Sony PJ is a good all-rounder but its 1080p. Which is fine....but figured it was worth the ask, and this turned into a very informative thread. I've been looking at 75" sets but right now the ones on sale are just average, basially a step down from my 65" Sony I use now. Its an edge lit, 850 I think? Kinda does HDR but limited by its lighting technology and its a few years old now...great set for gaming and such...but I didn't want to buy a back-lit modern set if I could get a 4k PJ with a slightly larger investment. Decisions, Decisions...

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post #23 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 06:57 AM
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I use my Epson 5040ub 90% games 10% movies. I’ve been very happy with it. Only thing I’d improve is motion blur- it as a lot more of that than my older DLP projectors has.

My vote would be actually to wait, though, see if anyone introduces an HDMI 2.1/VRR projector. That’s the only thing I’m interested in upgrading for.

If you can’t wait, I think the 5050ub would be great. Nice and bright, punchy contrast, sub 30 ms response time I think?
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post #24 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
I don't really watch many movies anymore....not much comes out that I care about at this point in time, it's all about the gaming now....and I gotta say its kinda cool when your characters are 1:3 scale and car cockpits are basically bigger than life size [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]......that's why I was entertaining a 'brighter but less accurate" PJ for gaming, my Sony PJ is a good all-rounder but its 1080p. Which is fine....but figured it was worth the ask, and this turned into a very informative thread. I've been looking at 75" sets but right now the ones on sale are just average, basially a step down from my 65" Sony I use now. Its an edge lit, 850 I think? Kinda does HDR but limited by its lighting technology and its a few years old now...great set for gaming and such...but I didn't want to buy a back-lit modern set if I could get a 4k PJ with a slightly larger investment. Decisions, Decisions...
Do urself a favor and look at thr BenQ LK970/HT9060 , both can be found in ur budget.
My personal pick would be Benq LK970 , its not native HDR but hdr gaming is pretty bad in my opinion and i tried it with my Oled and monitor and the jvc rs440, its just half baked.
Once u see it with a desktop pc with its stunning lens it rivals native 4k projectors 10times its price from clarity / sharpness point of view.
I have said before and ill say it again the LK970 is the best projector for 4k gaming under 30-40k budget, u have to see it to apreciate it.

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post #25 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I like how we got from $3k to $5k to $10k and 'best under $30k' in one post....that, kids, is known as 'quickly escalating'.......

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post #26 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 09:33 AM
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I video game with jvc nx5. It is great. Bright punchy image. The problem is the screen is 13’ away and 120”. Thats a lot of neck and eyeball work for gaming. Not terrible but noticeable. I used a 75” sony lcd while waiting for my projector. Frankly it is better for gamIng. No projector beats modern lcd/oled. Dont have to cover the windows either. Movies is where you need bigass image. I suppose you could project a small image when gaming but that is like using ferrari as a golf cart.
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post #27 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
I like how we got from $3k to $5k to $10k and 'best under $30k' in one post....that, kids, is known as 'quickly escalating'.......
hahahahaha , if u can get a peojctor for 3k that can rival 30k projector in areas that are important for gaming would u say no ?

escalating is suggesting you go and buy a projector under 30k lol.

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post #28 of 29 Old 05-22-2020, 02:52 PM
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Many seem to be ignoring the OP's actual question.

The OP already has a projection set-up, he did not ask PJ vs. TV.

He asked about current sub $3K PROJECTORS that are good for GAMING with input lag that is as low or lower than his current PJ (Sony HW50).

We all know that projectors cannot compete with modern direct view displays in many key areas, that's a given and HeadRusch clearly understands that aspect (this post is not in the TV area of the forum).

Of course none of these PJ's can compete with a modern OLED or higher end LCD UHDtv, that's not in doubt nor being debated.

The BenQ 9060 throws an amazing image (no doubt) but it is not a solid 'gaming' projector due to higher input lag (just as most XPR DLP's, with a couple new to market exceptions).

DLP and SXRD/LCOS/DILA have their advantages but DLP in this price range cannot compete on image quality + input lag and Sony/JVC simply do not compete at this price point (for a NEW unit).



I play games on many different displays (including competitive online FPS) and can say without a doubt that the most fun I have is always on the projection set-up(s), it's a whole different experience.

When it comes to the best all around PJ at $3K (or less) regarding over-all image quality that is very GAMING friendly there is one clear winner... Epson 5050UB.

I don't say that because I own it, I own it because of those aspects.

- Jason

HT = Epson 5050ub @133" / Marantz SR6013 7.3.4 Atmos / B&K 5000 II amp / Boston VR2/VR12/CR67 speakers / Rythmik 12" x2 / CV 15" / Sony x800 / Panasonic UB820 VOTE BLUE
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post #29 of 29 Old 05-27-2020, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm keeping an eye on the Epson......in the mean time I'm working with what I've got a little longer....kinda hoping I can find a 4k Sony on the refurb w/warranty in 2021....probably in the $3500 range seems reasonable....I think I can find Sonys in that same range now with 4k but input lag, I think, on the Sony 4k's from the past couple years were challenged by that 1080p panels didn't exhibit.

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