The 4K Itch...Ditch the 5030UB for the 5050UB? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 25 Old 06-05-2020, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The 4K Itch...Ditch the 5030UB for the 5050UB?

Hi
So it's that time in my life that I'm itching to upgrade. Don' t know if it's the whole quarantine thing or the fact that I have all the MCU movies in 4K along with other movies that is giving me the upgrade itch. So I'll get to the point...

I have the Epson 5030UB and had it for over 5 years. I'm looking at the 5050UB. 94 inch screen and about less than 12' from seating (no ambient light).
Will I notice a different with 1080p movies on the 5050UB?
With that screen size and that distance, will I notice a significant difference in 4K quality? in other words, will I be blown away at the PQ?
Lastly, do I need to 5050UBe with wireless HDMI if I already have a receiver? In other words, are they any flaws with this technology? can I hook up an XBOX One and get good performance?
Thanks!
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post #2 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 01:33 AM
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With your seating distance and such a small screen as most on these forums would want a minimum 120" screen for your seating distance you shouldn't be able to see any improvement upgrading to 4K. In reality you old Epson has most likely degrade some and the added tone mapped HDR, WCG and general improvements in the newer projector will most likely improve your PQ a fairly large amount. As for wireless avoid it if possible. When switching to 4K unless your receiver is fairly new (HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 compliant) it won't work. Also if you have HDMI cables longer the 12' or so expect to have to replace them also.

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post #3 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSDavinci007 View Post
Hi
So it's that time in my life that I'm itching to upgrade. Don' t know if it's the whole quarantine thing or the fact that I have all the MCU movies in 4K along with other movies that is giving me the upgrade itch. So I'll get to the point...

I have the Epson 5030UB and had it for over 5 years. I'm looking at the 5050UB. 94 inch screen and about less than 12' from seating (no ambient light).
Will I notice a different with 1080p movies on the 5050UB?
With that screen size and that distance, will I notice a significant difference in 4K quality? in other words, will I be blown away at the PQ?
Lastly, do I need to 5050UBe with wireless HDMI if I already have a receiver? In other words, are they any flaws with this technology? can I hook up an XBOX One and get good performance?
Thanks!
Yes.

But that is a very small screen. There is some personal preference, but most people get between 10-12" in diagonal per foot in distance. So for 12' that would be between 120 and 144". I'd say even 13", which would mean 156".

Of course you could get a scope screen in a larger size like 150".
Maybe use it on a wall for a while before deciding.

Avoid wireless.

If the room is not treated please consider treating it:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
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post #4 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 01:47 PM
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarman View Post
Resolution is just one part of 4K. There's WCG, the grading. The 5050UB will be a general improvement over the 5030UB.
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post #6 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 05:21 PM
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The viewing distance is too close to enable you to see the improvement. I saw it on my 65" 4k Samsung. When i was less than 4ft away I could see it. Problem is when you're supposed to view it 3 times the screen height. Which is double the amount away to see the improvement. Viewing half that recommended to see 4k correctly has a bad off shoot on the correct position to see the whole screen correctly You're too close. This is a big problem.

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post #7 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 05:49 PM
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It's .3 ft for every 5ft. So the thread starter would need to be 6ft not 12ft from his 94" screen. But then he won't see the full width of the screen, he's too into the cone. It's a tuff one.

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post #8 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post
The viewing distance is too close to enable you to see the improvement. I saw it on my 65" 4k Samsung. When i was less than 4ft away I could see it. Problem is when you're supposed to view it 3 times the screen height. Which is double the amount away to see the improvement. Viewing half that recommended to see 4k correctly has a bad off shoot on the correct position to see the whole screen correctly You're too close. This is a big problem.
As I wrote in the previous post, 4K is more than just resolution. You don't have to be close to the screen to notice the WCG, grading, or other improvements of the 5050UB.
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 06:38 PM
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I'm like the thread starter, was thinking about getting a 4k projector. But I wanted it for the high resolution not the other stuff. Knowing this significant flaw of not seeing it if you're not on top of the screen is a deal changer. Hey they just want you to keep spending. What when they do to double the 4k will you have to sit 2 feet from the screen. Think about it

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post #10 of 25 Old 06-06-2020, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post
I'm like the thread starter, was thinking about getting a 4k projector. But I wanted it for the high resolution not the other stuff. Knowing this significant flaw of not seeing it if you're not on top of the screen is a deal changer. Hey they just want you to keep spending. What when they do to double the 4k will you have to sit 2 feet from the screen. Think about it
The most important aspect of 4K video is not resolution. It's the grading of 4K videos and WCG, then resolution. But the screen size needs to be appropriate as well.
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-07-2020, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Just checked back and grateful for all the feedback. So many thanks!

So I'm well aware (and that simply means I read about it) of everything else other than the 4k resolution. So is it safe to assume all these other benefits will only come with a 4K source? Will I see any of these benefits with 1080p sources (blu-ray)?

As for the 4K itself and my arrangement. I just measured and my eyes are literally 11' 6" from the center of the screen. Based on my basement configurations, I cannot fit a larger screen (and boy do I wish I could). Here's a simple layout:

screen
______________


|
| |

___ ___ ___ ___
my sectional couch

The 3 objects to the side represent a one seater and a 2-seater and only get used when company is over and that's only like less than 5% of the times we use this HT. Small basement, no other configurations will work but it works for us just fine (and again, wish I can go bigger).
With that said, my understanding of the feedback is that I won't notice a "sharpness" difference. Not even with 4K source material? Am I to understand that it would only look slightly sharper than blu-ray? I feel the itch fading.

To be more specific of the setup:
Epson 5030UB
HTPC (win7 MCE + PowerDVD 14)
XBOX One
Apple 4K TV
Denon AVRX3400H
Monitor Audio Silver i's 5.1 setup (the .1 is 12" Velodyne HGS-12)

I do realize that only 2 components on this list is 4K capable. The 5050UB was going to be my next step.
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post #12 of 25 Old 06-07-2020, 12:50 PM
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For starters nice post LSDavinci007. I'm slightly confused after looking at the conversion table and footnotes referred to in the Forbes article. Would someone kindly tell me what the maximum and optimal viewing distance would be for 4k using a 120" diagonal screen? Also, do the same principles and distances apply to pixel shifting "near 4k" images? Thanks in advance.
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-07-2020, 09:44 PM
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My seating distance is about the same as yours. I went from the Epson 5025. I was able to project a 120” image (barely) from that distance. When I wanted to move up to a faux 4K projector I realized that the Epson 5040 (at the time of my upgrade) could not project a 120” image from the distance of the projector. I ended up going with the Optoma UHD65 to achieve the 120” image. The difference in my theater room was astonishing!

I could have moved to the the the 5040 with a smaller screen size but I was used to seeing a 120” projection. I highly recommend going with the biggest image you can achieve even if it means changing to a different projector. Size really does matter in this area! LOL. Best of luck.

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post #14 of 25 Old 06-08-2020, 05:04 AM
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I have a 135" screen and I sit a about 12' away. I too also had the 5030ub, and it looked really good. I went with a 6040ub because I found it for under 2k refurbished and I'm happy with it. I'm sure you'll be happy with the 5050ub.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-08-2020, 05:07 AM
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Do it.

I moved from 1080p to 4k on a similar sized screen. Viewing distance about 3M.

It is INSANE. The jump is amazing.

I'm very surprised of people can't tell the difference between a 1080p and 4k signal from this distance. Maybe they need to urgently go to an optician.
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-08-2020, 03:44 PM
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@LSDavinci007 if you're going to stick with 1080p it's not worth it.

If you look at your smartphone 5" away and then 5', can you see the difference between resolutions? Besides, sharpness perception is affected by many factors, not just the type of technology used.

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-09-2020, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post
The Forbes link (apparently I don't have enough posts to "post" a URL.
* I missed this originally. Thank you. After reading and going to the calculator, it brings me comfort to know that I am at least a foot below the maximum range for 4K. Even better when I read this part: "The viewer can see some of the increased detail in a 4K image if they sit anywhere in the range between the ideal 4K and 1080p distances." I'm in that range. It's on the high end but still in the range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aoaaron View Post
Do it.
I moved from 1080p to 4k on a similar sized screen. Viewing distance about 3M.
It is INSANE. The jump is amazing.
*Awesome! The Itch is back!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonfromCB View Post
For starters nice post LSDavinci007....Also, do the same principles and distances apply to pixel shifting "near 4k" images?
Excellent question. I assume the article is talking about native 4K as "TV/Monitors" is part of the title.



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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
if you're going to stick with 1080p it's not worth it.
* Now my itch is less but still there.

So if I understand correctly:
- I'm not in the "optimal" distance for true 4k resolution benefits but still below the maximum distance. So I'm kinda cool with that. +1
- I thought I read somewhere that a decent 4k projector will provide some (not much) benefit to my existing blu-ray collection. That's a bit of a bummer. -1
- All the bells and whistles (minus the 4K sharpness) will make a vast difference between my 1080p plu-ray and its 4k counterpart. That's exciting! +1

It looks like I'm leaning towards getting it. So...
I guess the only question left to ask is: if the 5050UB was a native 4K projector, would any of these variable change? If so, should I wait knowing my existing configuration?
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-09-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSDavinci007 View Post
* I missed this originally. Thank you. After reading and going to the calculator, it brings me comfort to know that I am at least a foot below the maximum range for 4K. Even better when I read this part: "The viewer can see some of the increased detail in a 4K image if they sit anywhere in the range between the ideal 4K and 1080p distances." I'm in that range. It's on the high end but still in the range.




*Awesome! The Itch is back!




Excellent question. I assume the article is talking about native 4K as "TV/Monitors" is part of the title.





* Now my itch is less but still there.

So if I understand correctly:
- I'm not in the "optimal" distance for true 4k resolution benefits but still below the maximum distance. So I'm kinda cool with that. +1
- I thought I read somewhere that a decent 4k projector will provide some (not much) benefit to my existing blu-ray collection. That's a bit of a bummer. -1
- All the bells and whistles (minus the 4K sharpness) will make a vast difference between my 1080p plu-ray and its 4k counterpart. That's exciting! +1

It looks like I'm leaning towards getting it. So...
I guess the only question left to ask is: if the 5050UB was a native 4K projector, would any of these variable change? If so, should I wait knowing my existing configuration?
I'll bet you a candy bar that you won't see a difference in sharpness with a 4K projector in your setup.

Not sure what you mean by this:
All the bells and whistles (minus the 4K sharpness) will make a vast difference between my 1080p plu-ray and its 4k counterpart.
I guess the only question left to ask is: if the 5050UB was a native 4K projector, would any of these variable change? If so, should I wait knowing my existing configuration?

No one knows if the contrast/black level will change with the next generation of Epson. The HDR tone mapping will improve.

But by the time that happens there might be some large diagonal TVs making a projector in your setup obsolete.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 09:57 AM
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I was tempted to open up a new thread, but this riffs along nicely with this topic, so I'm posting here.

I am in the exploratory-committee stage of upgrading to 4K. Currently have two 1080p DLP projectors, one for 3D and 16:9 AR material, one for 2.35 AR material.

My MLP/primary seating front row is about 9 feet from a 120" wide screen (at 16:9, that's 138" diagonal or so, which is what matters for apparent pixel size) - I use all 120" width for 2.35 aspect ratio material, but draw in curtains and use the other (closer) projector for the 16:9 material on about 96" width. Assuming I am using the wider configuration for 2.35, by using the link provided form the Forbes site, I get a visual-acuity distance of 8.9 ft for 4K, whereas it is 18 ft for 1080p. That assumes 20/20 vision, which I think I have slightly better than (yay for artificial lenses after cataract surgery?) but others may not.

https://stari.co/tv-monitor-viewing-distance-calculator

So I suspect I will benefit from the 4K upgrade quite nicely even in just pure pixel quantity/resolution, though the color space/HDR stuff is quite nice, along with audio upgrades like Atmos often found only on the 4K disc (growf).

I do wonder whether I will notice the difference in "true" 4K PJs (like the BenQ DLPs) or the pixel shift method used in the Epson 5050UB and similar.

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my captors.
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
I was tempted to open up a new thread, but this riffs along nicely with this topic, so I'm posting here.

I am in the exploratory-committee stage of upgrading to 4K. Currently have two 1080p DLP projectors, one for 3D and 16:9 AR material, one for 2.35 AR material.

My MLP/primary seating front row is about 9 feet from a 120" wide screen (at 16:9, that's 138" diagonal or so, which is what matters for apparent pixel size) - I use all 120" width for 2.35 aspect ratio material, but draw in curtains and use the other (closer) projector for the 16:9 material on about 96" width. Assuming I am using the wider configuration for 2.35, by using the link provided form the Forbes site, I get a visual-acuity distance of 8.9 ft for 4K, whereas it is 18 ft for 1080p. That assumes 20/20 vision, which I think I have slightly better than (yay for artificial lenses after cataract surgery?) but others may not.

https://stari.co/tv-monitor-viewing-distance-calculator

So I suspect I will benefit from the 4K upgrade quite nicely even in just pure pixel quantity/resolution, though the color space/HDR stuff is quite nice, along with audio upgrades like Atmos often found only on the 4K disc (growf).

I do wonder whether I will notice the difference in "true" 4K PJs (like the BenQ DLPs) or the pixel shift method used in the Epson 5050UB and similar.
Those charts are very general.

There are many factors that influence sharpness perception, not just the tech used. Quality of the lens, contrast, bitrate, brightness, the scene, quality of the screen, the source, what is someone used to, player settings, etc.

As to the visibility of screen door effect:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59779040

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58821002
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post #21 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Those charts are very general.

There are many factors that influence sharpness perception, not just the tech used. Quality of the lens, contrast, bitrate, brightness, the scene, quality of the screen, the source, what is someone used to, player settings, etc.

As to the visibility of screen door effect:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59779040

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58821002
Well, indeed the charts can only be general, far too many variables to account for.

I can see the individual pixels of my 1080p PJ, if I bother to look, from my main seating position of my current HT, using the 120" wide screen mode. Does it bother me? No, not really. So upgrading everything but the native resolution might be enough if the pixel shifting tech can fool my brain enough, but it might also might bug me from a "I know it isn't full 4K" voice in my head POV.

My room is very light controlled, and although the ceiling is mostly white, the area just above the screen is painted black. So I suspect I will appreciate better contrast more than I will slightly finer resolution. Good thing is I don't need to make a decision yet - I've been pondering for months, and will continue to ponder. I'll pick up a 4K player sooner or later, though, since the Sony 800M2 fits all my apparent needs and wants, especially audio-format wise (I'm a bit of a SACD and DVD-A collector), and would allow me to play UHD/4K discs with Atmos that might not be on the "regular HD" BD. But the PJ can wait until I find a "great deal", as it were. So doing my research and reading opinions/reviews as much as I can for now.

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my captors.
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
Well, indeed the charts can only be general, far too many variables to account for.

I can see the individual pixels of my 1080p PJ, if I bother to look, from my main seating position of my current HT, using the 120" wide screen mode. Does it bother me? No, not really. So upgrading everything but the native resolution might be enough if the pixel shifting tech can fool my brain enough, but it might also might bug me from a "I know it isn't full 4K" voice in my head POV.

My room is very light controlled, and although the ceiling is mostly white, the area just above the screen is painted black. So I suspect I will appreciate better contrast more than I will slightly finer resolution. Good thing is I don't need to make a decision yet - I've been pondering for months, and will continue to ponder. I'll pick up a 4K player sooner or later, though, since the Sony 800M2 fits all my apparent needs and wants, especially audio-format wise (I'm a bit of a SACD and DVD-A collector), and would allow me to play UHD/4K discs with Atmos that might not be on the "regular HD" BD. But the PJ can wait until I find a "great deal", as it were. So doing my research and reading opinions/reviews as much as I can for now.
I don't know what DLPs you have, but switching from a regular DLP to the UB series is like going from IPS to VA in terms of contrast/black floor.
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-13-2020, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
I don't know what DLPs you have, but switching from a regular DLP to the UB series is like going from IPS to VA in terms of contrast/black floor.
I have a BenQ W5000 (2008 ish) and a Sharp XV-Z17000 (2011 ish).

Neither produce stunning blacks, but I really liked the sharpness of the DLP compared to what I saw with LCD tech at the time.

Watching a movie last night on the Ben Q (Rocketman) I was again reminded that I could see the individual pixels if I looked for them, but generally I didn't notice them.

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post #24 of 25 Old 06-13-2020, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
I have a BenQ W5000 (2008 ish) and a Sharp XV-Z17000 (2011 ish).

Neither produce stunning blacks, but I really liked the sharpness of the DLP compared to what I saw with LCD tech at the time.

Watching a movie last night on the Ben Q (Rocketman) I was again reminded that I could see the individual pixels if I looked for them, but generally I didn't notice them.
I'm talking about models from this decade.

DLPs now, especially 4K have very poor contrast. ~1500:1 native for 1080p, ~700:1 for 4K, in general.
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post #25 of 25 Old 06-13-2020, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
I have a BenQ W5000 (2008 ish) and a Sharp XV-Z17000 (2011 ish).

Neither produce stunning blacks, but I really liked the sharpness of the DLP compared to what I saw with LCD tech at the time.

Watching a movie last night on the Ben Q (Rocketman) I was again reminded that I could see the individual pixels if I looked for them, but generally I didn't notice them.
Yeah, I had the W5000, then the Optoma HD3300, and just bought the Epson 6040. I too thought that DLP was the bees knees for sharpness. The Epson is significantly sharper than both of those, and the colours and black levels are in a whole different ballpark. It's not even close.
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Gear: The Brains: Anthem MRX 720. The Brawn: Outlaw 7700. The Fun: Custom PC w/ Logitech 27 & reverse mount pedals, Nintendo Switch, Playstation PS4 Pro. The Visuals: Panny UB420, Epson 6040UB, Panamorph UH480, DIY 138" Curved screen using Semour Centerstage XD AT material. The Audio: 7.1.4: LCR: Tannoy DC12i. Sides: Tannoy IW63DC. Rears: Tannoy DC8i. Ceilings: Tannoy CMS 603/601 DCBM. Subs: 3X Micro Marty and 1X Full Marty.
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