4k DLP vs 3LCD contrast - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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4k DLP vs 3LCD contrast

I've been doing research and keep reading conflicting information about contrast on DLP vs 3LCD projectors. Which technology has deeper blacks?
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post #2 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by is250sp View Post
I've been doing research and keep reading conflicting information about contrast on DLP vs 3LCD projectors. Which technology has deeper blacks?
That's a too broad generalization.

But the room matters too. Treating the room will improve blacks if this is what you're after:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/

Generally speaking, 1080p DLP released in the second half of this decade have native contrast ~1500:1, and dynamic ~2000-3000:1.
4K DLP has ~500-1000:1 native, 2000-3000:1, maybe 3500:1 with some models. Benq W5700/HT5550 can do ~6000:1 dynamic.

3LCD like the Epson 3000 series has between 1500-2200:1 native, and ~35 000:1 dynamic with the most aggressive setting.
An UB series 5000/6000 series is ~4000:1 native and ~35 000:1 dynamic.

JVCs can have higher native and dynamic. Some projectors have two irises. Sony has it's own specifications. JVC and Sony mostly are LCOS.


Additionally real black level performance depends on what's happening on the screen. Generally speaking, projectors with lower black floor will look better in dark scenes.

There can be much more be said about this topic which has been discussed many times.



So what's your setup, color of walls, room dimensions?

Budget?

Seating distance?
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post #3 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
That's a too broad generalization.

But the room matters too. Treating the room will improve blacks if this is what you're after:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/

Generally speaking, 1080p DLP released in the second half of this decade have native contrast ~1500:1, and dynamic ~2000-3000:1.
4K DLP has ~500-1000:1 native, 2000-3000:1, maybe 3500:1 with some models. Benq W5700/HT5550 can do ~6000:1 dynamic.

3LCD like the Epson 3000 series has between 1500-2200:1 native, and ~35 000:1 dynamic with the most aggressive setting.
An UB series 5000/6000 series is ~4000:1 native and ~35 000:1 dynamic.

JVCs can have higher native and dynamic. Some projectors have two irises. Sony has it's own specifications. JVC and Sony mostly are LCOS.


Additionally real black level performance depends on what's happening on the screen. Generally speaking, projectors with lower black floor will look better in dark scenes.

There can be much more be said about this topic which has been discussed many times.



So what's your setup, color of walls, room dimensions?

Budget?

Seating distance?
I have a Mitsubishi HC5500 but it recently died. My setup is a 135" screen seating distance 12 feet. It's in an open concept living room so pretty big room since it shares with dining and kitchen. The walls are light gray. Budget is 2k. I only use the projector at night for movies only.
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post #4 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by is250sp View Post
I have a Mitsubishi HC5500 but it recently died. My setup is a 135" screen seating distance 12 feet. It's in an open concept living room so pretty big room since it shares with dining and kitchen. The walls are light gray. Budget is 2k. I only use the projector at night for movies only.

What kind of fabric does the screen has?


Not sure what contrast that projector has, I think @rekbones had something similar.

Are you looking at 1080p or 4K?

For North American there's the 5040UB which can be called 4K, but has some caveats:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59777804

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-f...-151-00-a.html

For 1080p there's some Sonys like HW45ES, used. New are too expensive IMO.

Used also JVC, but I'm not that familiar with the lineup or their brightness. You'll need a brighter one with that screen:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post59040064

You could find a 4K JVC used, but it won't be easy in that budget. Maybe 1080p.



Continuing on the other post, the light grey walls will have a negative impact on the image. A high contrast projector will still look ok in a dark scenes where there is not a lot of light to bounce around and wash out the image. But as the image gets brighter, the washout effect will get stronger.


This article uses patterns, while not perfect, give some idea of what effect a non treated room has on a projector, and how the image (brightness) will affect it's contrast. You'll notice that even at 2 or 3% ADL the contrast of even good projectors drops:
https://projectiondream.com/en/contr...r-environment/


If you watch Sci Fi, then a projector with a low black floor would be better, but if content is brighter, a DLP will be preferable.
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post #5 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 09:24 AM
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@is250sp not sure what the screen is, but if the room can't be treated then an ALR screen could be used, if there is where to place it at.

The projector would be required to be placed at ~18.6' (lens to screen) away from the screen, if the screen dimensions will remain the same.

Paints with ALR properties can be used, either on a white screen or a wall.
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post #6 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 12:01 PM
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Your Mitsubishi HC5500 was a fairly high end LCD projector. The Epson 4010 or 3800 would make very good replacements for a $2K budget. The 4010 has power lens memory but is crippled with the 10Gb HDMI. The 3800 is brightest in its class with 18Gb HDMI. For contrast low end LCD is the poorest, followed by 4K DLP, 1080 DLP with the DC3 chip is close to equal with mid level LCD like the Epson 3000/4000 series, followed by high end LCD like the 5000ub series and LCOS takes them all by a wide margin with the highest pixel fill to boot.

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post #7 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
Your Mitsubishi HC5500 was a fairly high end LCD projector. The Epson 4010 or 3800 would make very good replacements for a $2K budget. The 4010 has power lens memory but is crippled with the 10Gb HDMI. The 3800 is brightest in its class with 18Gb HDMI. For contrast low end LCD is the poorest, followed by 4K DLP, 1080 DLP with the DC3 chip is close to equal with mid level LCD like the Epson 3000/4000 series, followed by high end LCD like the 5000ub series and LCOS takes them all by a wide margin with the highest pixel fill to boot.
So you are saying the Epson 3000/4000 series has deeper blacks than say an Optoma UHD50x?
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post #8 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by is250sp View Post
So you are saying the Epson 3000/4000 series has deeper blacks than say an Optoma UHD50x?
The UHD50x is 4K DLP, which have just about the worst contrast. It's probably ~700:1 native CR. It's also a gaming projector with a non RGBRGB color wheel which sacrifices color and black level for brightness. Literally the worst pick you could get. Only some older Epson HC2000 series have native ~300:1 or so.

The HC3000 series have ~1700-2200:1. Same with the 4000 series. JVCs can have over 10 000 native CR.


However, as I mentioned above, with actual content the room plays a big part in how deep the blacks are. If the room can't be treated either an ALR screen or ALR paints must be used to save some of the contrast.
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post #9 of 20 Old 06-26-2020, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
Your Mitsubishi HC5500 was a fairly high end LCD projector. The Epson 4010 or 3800 would make very good replacements for a $2K budget. The 4010 has power lens memory but is crippled with the 10Gb HDMI. The 3800 is brightest in its class with 18Gb HDMI. For contrast low end LCD is the poorest, followed by 4K DLP, 1080 DLP with the DC3 chip is close to equal with mid level LCD like the Epson 3000/4000 series, followed by high end LCD like the 5000ub series and LCOS takes them all by a wide margin with the highest pixel fill to boot.
But what's the native contrast, similar to 3000/4000 series or higher?
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post #10 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 12:34 AM
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But what's the native contrast, similar to 3000/4000 series or higher?
I didn't look into it's native as of course it is not in Mits spec sheet. It retailed for $5K when new so guessing it was at least in the class of the earlier Epson UB series so might very well be higher. My Mits HC7900 is a DC3 RGBRGB DLP/w active iris.
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post #11 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
I didn't look into it's native as of course it is not in Mits spec sheet. It retailed for $5K when new so guessing it was at least in the class of the earlier Epson UB series so might very well be higher. My Mits HC7900 is a DC3 RGBRGB DLP/w active iris.
Specifications claim 14 000:1 dynamic.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_4280.pdf
This review claims it's similar to the Epson Home Cinema 1080 UB:
https://www.projectorreviews.com/mit...hadow-detailq/
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post #12 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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The UHD50x is 4K DLP, which have just about the worst contrast. It's probably ~700:1 native CR. It's also a gaming projector with a non RGBRGB color wheel which sacrifices color and black level for brightness. Literally the worst pick you could get. Only some older Epson HC2000 series have native ~300:1 or so.

The HC3000 series have ~1700-2200:1. Same with the 4000 series. JVCs can have over 10 000 native CR.


However, as I mentioned above, with actual content the room plays a big part in how deep the blacks are. If the room can't be treated either an ALR screen or ALR paints must be used to save some of the contrast.
Where can I get this list of native contrast? All I see from the manufacturer's specs are contrast ratio. So just going by the contrast ratio, the Optoma "supposed" to have deeper blacks but obviously that's not the case.

Optoma UHD50X - 500,000:1
Epson 3800 - 100,000:1
Epson 4010 - 200,000:1
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post #13 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by is250sp View Post
I've been doing research and keep reading conflicting information about contrast on DLP vs 3LCD projectors. Which technology has deeper blacks?
You have been given all truthful and accurate information about blacks and CR.

What I believe misleads people the most is not understanding how humans and their eyes perceive black. Measurements are great and they tell us a lot and the manufactures don’t help the things by stating a lot of highly over rated specs that don’t mean much in the real world but help them sell projectors.

The real bottom line IMO is in how we watch and how we perceive blacks though because our eyes are not light meters and actually if they were light meters they would be awful ones. Our eye has an iris that that opens and closes and adjusts how much light gets in. Our screens are white or gray and projectors don’t put out black light as a color to do black they just send out no light, so the black on the screen is how our eyes perceive it given how much light is in the room (ambient) and how bright the image is overall setting the size of our iris. A small iris / bright image will produce a on screen black that is very dark and convincing it is an inky black even though a meter will tell you it is a poor CR black. This is because our eyes take in the full image and adjust to average it and when the amount of black is overcome with brightness someplace else in the image the smaller iris lets in less light from what is black and thus it looks black. This is what people are talking about when they say perceived CR or perceived black. It is also the reason people say more lumens help with poor room or if you hear someone say I want to watch football in the daytime with some light coming in so I have a very bright projector. More lumens can’t make actual darker blacks as blacks are no lumens. What they do is make a brighter image and increase the perception of black. Dark gray screens help in a similar way.

Actual blacks occur when our iris is fully opened by a very dark image and perception is mostly not there. A good example is when the credits run at the end of the movie and there is mostly black on the screen or when the movie does a fade to black and we finally get to see the true black the projector is producing. This is why all the questions about room colors and ambient light. Because the very best projector that can produce the best black by stopping the most light will be easily destroyed by the slightest ambient light leakage.

This is why you seem to see a lot of discrepancy between reviews and specs with 4k DLP and 3LCD and older 1080p DLPs etc. When a projector is reviewed and measured and real numbers are assigned to CR, remember CR is the difference between black and white brightness. So if a projector puts out 1 lumen doing black and 2000 lumens doing white it is said to have 2000:1 CR. Then you will read another review that is done visually and they will say the picture is so spectacular and colors are vivid and lifelike and blacks dark and convincing. They are not lying it is what they see.

Many times for most people the only times they will be bothered by a lesser CR is in a dark nighttime image and most of the time those problems are largely and mostly ambient light in the room.

Directors of movies know this and know their movies will be playing in commercial theaters that get pretty dark but are far from perfect so even in the dark nighttime images they use some lighting during filming to help with a little perception happening.

It is really mostly about how much of that type of image you watch and how important it is that you get blacks at those times as dark as don’t bother you and your room will support.

Some people are very obsessed with these black levels others not so much. I personally just understand and except the limitation of projection in these areas and the advantages more than outweigh the disadvantages. Just know the difference in these CR isn’t going to be that apparent in 99% of what most of us watch.

That’s my opinion others may not agree.

Bud
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post #14 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by is250sp View Post
Where can I get this list of native contrast? All I see from the manufacturer's specs are contrast ratio. So just going by the contrast ratio, the Optoma "supposed" to have deeper blacks but obviously that's not the case.

Optoma UHD50X - 500,000:1
Epson 3800 - 100,000:1
Epson 4010 - 200,000:1
Those are not real CR values. You get these values from reivews and users that measure them.
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post #15 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 10:48 AM
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I had an older DLP (my third DLP since going HT) with a 0.67" Dark Chip 3 chip and I thought it looked pretty good until I got my Epson (6040). It's not even in the same ballpark - the Epson destroys it in every aspect I couldn't even believe it. Sharpness, colours, blacks - it's so much better that I'm going and watching all my favourite movies over again and it's like I'm seeing them for the first time. I've heard that the newer, smaller DLP chips have even worse contrast than the older 0.67" ones. Based on that, I don't see myself ever getting another DLP unless they do something drastic to make it competitive.

Gear: The Brains: Anthem MRX 720. The Brawn: Outlaw 7700. The Fun: Custom PC w/ Logitech 27 & reverse mount pedals, Nintendo Switch, Playstation PS4 Pro. The Visuals: Panny UB420, Epson 6040UB, Panamorph UH480, DIY 138" Curved screen using Semour Centerstage XD AT material. The Audio: 7.1.4: LCR: Tannoy DC12i. Sides: Tannoy IW63DC. Rears: Tannoy DC8i. Ceilings: Tannoy CMS 603/601 DCBM. Subs: 3X Micro Marty and 1X Full Marty.
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post #16 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 11:43 AM
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I had an older DLP (my third DLP since going HT) with a 0.67" Dark Chip 3 chip and I thought it looked pretty good until I got my Epson (6040). It's not even in the same ballpark - the Epson destroys it in every aspect I couldn't even believe it. Sharpness, colours, blacks - it's so much better that I'm going and watching all my favourite movies over again and it's like I'm seeing them for the first time. I've heard that the newer, smaller DLP chips have even worse contrast than the older 0.67" ones. Based on that, I don't see myself ever getting another DLP unless they do something drastic to make it competitive.
It is a fair comparison, but to be totally fair you are comparing two things where the cost difference is 3-4 X.

It is a shame DLP took such a hit going to 4k. It was like they were moving fast trying to get something out to the market place. Lets hope they are going back and improving it somehow or it will be a one-tech market.

Bud
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post #17 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
It is a fair comparison, but to be totally fair you are comparing two things where the cost difference is 3-4 X.

It is a shame DLP took such a hit going to 4k. It was like they were moving fast trying to get something out to the market place. Lets hope they are going back and improving it somehow or it will be a one-tech market.
That 6040 is a refurb, which is about the price of a 4K DLP. The 5040UB refurb is practically identical in terms of picture quality, and at an unbeatable price. I mean what are the options for the same price as a 5040UB? Even other refurbs like 4K Benq and Viewsonic are close in price and the difference in picture quality is colossal.
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post #18 of 20 Old 06-27-2020, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
It is a fair comparison, but to be totally fair you are comparing two things where the cost difference is 3-4 X.

It is a shame DLP took such a hit going to 4k. It was like they were moving fast trying to get something out to the market place. Lets hope they are going back and improving it somehow or it will be a one-tech market.
My DLP 9 years ago (Optoma HD3300) was the same price as my 6040 refurb today. I almost pulled the trigger on a refurbished Optoma UHD65 because I've always bought DLP and loved the sharpness and minimal (read: none) maintenance. I was worried about screen door effect, panel alignment, dust blobs, etc. from the Epson which scared me away for so long. But for the price ($700 less than the refurb Optoma), a 3 year warranty and the fact that it arrived with a zero hour bulb, and a mint exterior including the lens, I decided to give it a shot. I laughed when I installed it because I didn't have to piss around aligning it up perfectly - motorized frickin' everything to get it just right. Amazing. Fingers crossed, but so far it's one of the best decisions I've made for my home theater.

Gear: The Brains: Anthem MRX 720. The Brawn: Outlaw 7700. The Fun: Custom PC w/ Logitech 27 & reverse mount pedals, Nintendo Switch, Playstation PS4 Pro. The Visuals: Panny UB420, Epson 6040UB, Panamorph UH480, DIY 138" Curved screen using Semour Centerstage XD AT material. The Audio: 7.1.4: LCR: Tannoy DC12i. Sides: Tannoy IW63DC. Rears: Tannoy DC8i. Ceilings: Tannoy CMS 603/601 DCBM. Subs: 3X Micro Marty and 1X Full Marty.

Last edited by blastermaster; 06-27-2020 at 06:09 PM.
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post #19 of 20 Old 06-28-2020, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post
My DLP 9 years ago (Optoma HD3300) was the same price as my 6040 refurb today. I almost pulled the trigger on a refurbished Optoma UHD65 because I've always bought DLP and loved the sharpness and minimal (read: none) maintenance. I was worried about screen door effect, panel alignment, dust blobs, etc. from the Epson which scared me away for so long. But for the price ($700 less than the refurb Optoma), a 3 year warranty and the fact that it arrived with a zero hour bulb, and a mint exterior including the lens, I decided to give it a shot. I laughed when I installed it because I didn't have to piss around aligning it up perfectly - motorized frickin' everything to get it just right. Amazing. Fingers crossed, but so far it's one of the best decisions I've made for my home theater.
I understand and I will likely switch technologies in a year or two when I upgrade my projector. My point is in today’s world you can or could have bought a .65 DC3 DLP RGBRGB for 500 bucks as that was the comparison you were making and the 6040UB is closer to 3000 if not a refurb I think.

There was a major switch around on the better technology that is for sure.

No doubt you are getting a much more flexible feature rich projector with the Epson as well. It is really like comparing two different classes of projectors.

Bud
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post #20 of 20 Old 06-28-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
could have bought a .65 DC3 DLP RGBRGB for 500 bucks
0.95" dc3 with a $3,000 konica minolta lens too
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233624363439
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