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post #7801 of 13132 Old 02-21-2015, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Yep, two stepsons. Lol

Wow the youngest everytime he had his girlfriend here he would watch movies with her. I wonder why? Hmm lol
I am not gonna "touch" that one!

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post #7802 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 07:55 AM
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Just a serious question. I am seriously considering this Dreadnaught 4 and the ATI signature. Do you folks really think the Dreadnaught can sound almost as good as the Prometheus? It seams to be a daunting task considering the price. And all them closely placed wires inside the chassis have me a bit concerned for crosstalk among channels.

Thanks
Ron Hale

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
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post #7803 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 08:33 AM
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I have not seen the specifications published for the new Dreadnaught IV but would expect them to be similar to the Prometheus since similar tech is employed. I would expect somewhat lower power output capability due to multiple amplifiers within same chassis. Crosstalk should not be an issue if the unit is built to the standards expected from Theta in the past.


We will have to wait and see when the specs are published or the first review is available....

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post #7804 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Just a serious question. I am seriously considering this Dreadnaught 4 and the ATI signature. Do you folks really think the Dreadnaught can sound almost as good as the Prometheus? It seams to be a daunting task considering the price. And all them closely placed wires inside the chassis have me a bit concerned for crosstalk among channels.

Thanks
Ron Hale
Speculation speculation.

Why don't you ask the folks with their shirts off?

Seriously - Theta Digital and Dave Reich will not put out a Dreadnaught 4 that does not sound much better than the prior Dreadnaught 3, as David continues to design and listen until he gets it "right". But experience strongly suggests that particularly in your front channels that are the most important,
although the Dreadnaught 4 I'm sure will sound amazing, that the Prometheus monoblocks - in the right systems - will amaze even more!
Of course, I am a bit biased, aren't I - as I own five of the Prometheus monoblocks!

When it comes time for you to get new Theta Digital amps, you can call John Baloff, Theta Tech support, discuss with him your then current system,
and I know John will give you the honest pros and cons, besides price, of the Prometheus vs the Dreadnaught in your system.

John did this for me just prior to my purchasing the Prometheus. He gave me the pros and cons of the Prometheus vs the Enterprise (definitely a big sonic improvement), and of the Prometheus vs the Citadel 1.5s (John was somewhat conservative, with his then opinion only stating that the Prometheus was different or better in some respects and that the Citadel 1.5 might be different or better in some respects like perhaps a wider soundstage).

Actually, a year ago plus after talking to John, my plan was to replace the three Enterprise monoblocks at front center and surround left and right with three Prometheus. But initially I placed all three Prometheus up front, and I thought I was taking the front left and right Citadel 1.5 monoblocks out of my system only temporary and would then reinsert them after Prometheus burn in. But the first day, the Prometheus sounded so darn good, better than the Citadels in so many respects, that the second day I ordered two more Prometheus, and I sold the Citadels.

Now the negative of upgrading/updating to the Prometheus and/or Dreadnaught 4. Your theater room will run much cooler and your wife, girlfriends, etc will be keeping their shirts on.

As for the ATI Signature, Morris sure knows how to design amps and surely it is a real winner for a multi-channel amp. Now the Dreadnaught 4 will run cooler
so if you get the ATI you can keep the wife and girlfriends taking their shirts off
(Come on - we know you require shirts off to watch movies in your theater!)[email protected]

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post #7805 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 09:16 AM
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The best explanation ever. Thanks and I guess I am going to have to rename the theater. Lets see; The shirtless wonder? I think I may need some help with the name. Lol

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
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post #7806 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
The best explanation ever. Thanks and I guess I am going to have to rename the theater. Lets see; The shirtless wonder? I think I may need some help with the name. Lol
"Enter At Your Own Risk", or

"The Bube Room" (Do you get the mispelling? I figured that correct spelling my get me banned from AVS via their automatic program to ferret out bad words)


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post #7807 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 10:55 AM
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Yes the first one is good. I will put a shirt rack at the entrance.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
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post #7808 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Great news that will apply to modular rack amp too?

Just giving heads up from Europe competing pc based system getting choppy results at least on 2 of 3 demos.
Can you be more specific?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #7809 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 07:19 PM
 
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These seem to be more related to following the Home Dolby Ceilings Layout, at the moment, which yields to poorer envelopment, that been said I am deleting the post you quoted, and summarize here.

What happened to Quested I warned him not to be a fool and not have the proper panning images overhead, still he listened to the manufacturer and messed up the layouts ability to sound pans overhead and killed the Holophonic image.

Want to kill the Holophony in your room? Yes, Then follow these diagrams.

Speakers too far apart to achieve same immediacy of sound objects pirouettes around MLP one gets in CINEMA ARRAY.

Procella:

Here is me questioning same layout from Steinway where there was a huge hole above and the image 3d sound image was discombobulated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=-sufLUsTuOI

Why are this manufacturers so idiotic that they do not test their systems first? I dunno. To those missing my warnings the speaker layouts for proper dolby atmos should be the cinema layouts. A little experimentation proves that.

The lack of general quality at the P speaker booth, no one found remarkable.

There may not be enough time, unless you rehearse and calibrate the booth ahead of time to get any system sounding right, because the calibration 3d remapping etc etc takes more that Dirac. For example. It is more powerful tool one un-masterable in 2 days.

B&W on the other hand, did an excellent job of setting up that unit, with a booth that obviously had a lot of forethought, show drilling and coordination, since B&W reps that other pc based unit, it is obvious they have had some time to setup properly the unit from show feedback which got a,a- ratings.


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post #7810 of 13132 Old 02-22-2015, 10:26 PM
 
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The quested show layout should have been what I understood from Quested in the fist place.

Potential NEW customers have been asking them about my (original interpretation) diagram. being a more interesting approach so I had to email a copy to Quested.
This would have rocked...


You see during CEDIA we had a 40 minute conversation with Dolby's Technical department aboout the 27 obejections we had at their original 32 channel layout.


We were there to discuss Takers AEGIR and the angles of the first widths and first heights, and due to the wall to ceiling screen, Brett Crocket and his 2 top engineers, gave some of our ideas unqualified endorsement, and that for that kind of screening room the CINEMA LAYOUT IS BEST. Certainly onece your theater hits 30 feet YOU ARE INSANE to throw the holophonic field away.



In the meeting pic. see the above diagram and see this one.

The room thus has been pre-wired with the very largest topography possible with most channels bi- and tri (LCRW) amplified except coaxial ceilings.

This room could be a CB-V candidate.



If Taker would settle to 24 channels.

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post #7811 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Just a serious question. I am seriously considering this Dreadnaught 4 and the ATI signature. Do you folks really think the Dreadnaught can sound almost as good as the Prometheus? It seams to be a daunting task considering the price. And all them closely placed wires inside the chassis have me a bit concerned for crosstalk among channels.

Thanks
Ron Hale
Hi Ron,

I think Steve gave you a terrific answer, as he usually does. The DN4 should definitely be better than the DN3, and the DN4 will most likely run cooler than the ATI signature.

However, there was a recent article of an interview with Morris in a magazine (Widescreen Review I think). Morris implies in that interview that the ATI signature is better than the Prometheus.

Dave
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post #7812 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 10:26 AM
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Regarding the Prometheus vs. ATI:


WSR Reber:
But isn’t your company, Theta Digital, introducing a switching amplifier?

(at the time of the article, this was referring to the Prometheus)

Kessler: Yes. The answer is yes. It is also the closest thing to a Class AB amplifier that we were able to find. It's actually what's called a free-running switching amplifier. It doesn't have a modulator. It still does have a carrier frequency that has to be filtered out, and it has some value in that sense. It does still use a linear power supply, it's just a switching output stage, and it's analog all the way through, up to the output stage. And that's for Theta. Theta lives in that world. How should I say this politically? I still don’t think it’ll be the sound quality of the 6000, the ATI 6000, or the analog amplifiers that we do, but it’s close. Has close ever been good enough in the high-end audio world, by the way?


I'd love to try one of these ATI Signature amps to see how it compares with my Krell S-1500!

Dave






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post #7813 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 10:59 AM
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Yes I read that interview.
I believe Morris mentioned something about soundstage depth being better with the Signature amps. But in that review of the Prometheus the reviewer mentions that it has great soundstage depth. So this is why I am so torn. Along with the fact that the Theta looks way better with higher resale value.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.

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post #7814 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Yes I read that interview.
I believe Morris mentioned something about soundstage depth being better with the Signature amps. But in that review of the Prometheus the reviewer mentions that it has great soundstage depth. So this is why I am so torn. Along with the fact that the Theta looks way better with higher resale value.
I definitely agree that Theta looks better, but it's more expensive too. Regarding resale value, I'm not so sure about that, from what I've seen on Audiogon with previous Dreadnaught's....

Dave
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post #7815 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 01:28 PM
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Hi Ron,

I think Steve gave you a terrific answer, as he usually does. The DN4 should definitely be better than the DN3, and the DN4 will most likely run cooler than the ATI signature.

However, there was a recent article of an interview with Morris in a magazine (Widescreen Review I think). Morris implies in that interview that the ATI signature is better than the Prometheus.

Dave
Ya gotta take what Morris implies with a grain of salt. Of course Morris feels his new ATI signature is the best - he designed it. And keep in mind the Dreadnaught 4 was still in the design stage when that article came out.
Also keep in mind that Morris will be manufacturing multi-channel amps for other companies using technology from the ATI signature. I'm sure both multi-channel amps will be great - and its possible that given one's room and system and preferences one might like one better than the other!

Gotta go. John Gannon (ex Stereophile Guide to Home Theater technical editor many years ago) is in town and coming by for a visit & demo!

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post #7816 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 01:49 PM
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^ good deal come back and tell us how it goes.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
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post #7817 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 01:52 PM
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I want the more musical amp. Not the last word in precision. I don't want an in your face sound either. Trying to figure out which one of these two will give me that.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I want the more musical amp. Not the last word in precision. I don't want an in your face sound either. Trying to figure out which one of these two will give me that.
You will want to hear them for yourself - with your own equipment if possible. Each amplifier may interact with your speakers and room differently. Do you have a Theta or ATI dealer nearby?

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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I want the more musical amp. Not the last word in precision. I don't want an in your face sound either. Trying to figure out which one of these two will give me that.
I would want the same thing. I'm betting the Krell amp you had was more musical, thus setting a tough standard for other amps to meet...

Dave
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Or fork out the dough and get a pair of Prometheus monoblocks at least for your front left and right. You won 't be [email protected]@@

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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post #7821 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 04:48 PM
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^ good deal come back and tell us how it goes.
I hadn't seen John Gannon in like 9 or 10 years. I don't think John has cut his hair in all those years - Ha!

We listened to a bunch of classical, then some jazz and vocal music, mostly hi rez and DSD, some redbook, from my custom Media Server. John was floored because he just luved the sonics whatever volume we listened at. And I used that wonderful Neil Sinclair phase button on the Theta Casablanca remote to change phase as I changed albums/tracks and in a second or two we always selected what sounded best and we always agree, it was that easy to hear.
We never even got around to video.

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post #7822 of 13132 Old 02-23-2015, 07:35 PM
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I am glad he liked it.

So how about that soundstage on those Prometheus amps?

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #7823 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 02:38 AM
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Okay - We just got word from Theta on the CB4 upgrade pricing increase..

They are giving people till March 15th at midnight to get the order into Theta. That doesn't mean the machine has to be there and upgraded before then, just the paperwork and process has to be started..

It was very nice of them to extend the dates as this allows people on the fence to make decisions.

Thx
Craig
When do you start to take orders of the 4a upgrade ? ($6995)

Can upgrade from 4 to 4a be done in field ? Price ?
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post #7824 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 07:36 AM
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I think relying on other folks subjective impressions on amps is difficult.

Adjectives about amps are really inconsistent between various devices and you don't really know if someone is really describing a "real" difference. Even if the difference was real, there is no standard for the adjectives used for descriptions.

Even if you have a subjective naming standard, you can't be sure someone isn't describing source marerial characteristics, pre-amp characteristics, speaker characteristics, or room characteristics.

How do we know that an abnormality someone is attributing to an amp wouldn't be solved with additional room treatment (the effects of which aren't 100% quantifiable with existing techniques). Or perhaps an extra 5 degrees of speaker toe-in... Etc.

The obsessiveness that some people go through to get speaker position "right" is questionable and the even then that is a subjective endpoint. Most people don't have an objective standard for speaker location and toe-in based on how the music is "supposed to sound".

The only way to know is get a pair of Promethius amps or whatever and give it a go. I personally utilize the used market to sort all this out when needed.

Even when I have multiple amps at once to try out, i try to maintain the selection bias that if I can't tell the difference, I will try to go for the cheaper amp when possible. Sometimes features may play a role such as 12v triggers etc. Cosmetics of casework might be a reason to pay more if it is really beautiful. I reject the idea that you can't enjoy the beauty of the object on its own merits... For what is art anyway?

I am under the subjective and objective belief that amp tech has come a LONG way, especially in class D and other high efficiency methods. There are a LOT of highly effective products out there, many of which will do a phenomenal job, for cheaper than ever.

It is the pre-pro brands that don't offer the same quality and versatility in mass market products compared to some boutique brands like Theta, trinnov, datasat, Steinway, etc.

It does amaze me how few high end manufacturers are left on the playing field with Atmos, etc. coming out in a "cutting edge" time frame. My primary reason for following this thread is to see what the "cutting edge" crowd is thinking along these lines. I continue to wait for the product that meets the criteria on my wish list at a price that is doable with my budget.
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post #7825 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 08:06 AM
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^ I agree to this in almost all circumstances. One persons great detailed amp is my unlistenable very fatigued and ear cringing, to a point.

I heard a so called detailed McIntosh amp that I found wonderful sounding. With so much information around each and every instrument that I actually would have described it as euphoric. And I believe it was an autoformer amp which most people dont like. But I found I could sit and listen for hours.

Then their was the Citation 7.1 which most people give rave reviews. I found it harsh to the point I wanted to wear ear plugs. Lol.

Then there was the ADA ptm 6150 which although sounded better than the Citation was too smooth and missing something.

Then the Halo a23 which was the most listenable of all the amps I have owned. It was smooth but with more prat than the Ada
Then the Krell Chorus in which when I first hooked it up I wanted to turn around and sell it immediately. But I was patient and was told to let it burn in for a few days. After them few days it was an enjoyable amp. It was detailed but with no harshness or grain in the upper mids and lower treble. So it had all the detail but it was very listenable. I just found I wouldn't listen to dsotm at reference level with it like I would with the Halo amps. It just had to much going on when all the clocks started in. It sounded a bit discombobulated. Most people would love it. And I actually did. But boy that song was going to split my eardrums.

Everyone has differing opinions on what they like. I wish I could hear them all in my room but I dont have any dealers near me for any of the amps I am interested in. To be honest I don't need the power of any of these 4 amps. The Nad m27, Krell Chorus, Ati signature and Theta Dreadnaught 4 are all way above what I need. But the 50 watt amps that are good are about as far under what I need. I actually need about 125-150 wpc to be reference level without fatigue.
Sorry for the long post.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.

Last edited by rhale64L7; 02-24-2015 at 08:20 AM.
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post #7826 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 08:10 AM
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I am glad he liked it.

So how about that soundstage on those Prometheus amps?
How about everything on the Prometheus amps. they are simply wonderful!!###

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #7827 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 08:21 AM
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Steve you sure are making this difficult. Lol. I know my wife would love those angel wings too.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #7828 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 08:28 AM
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Then their was the Citation 7.1 which most people give rave reviews. I found it harsh to the point I wanted to wear ear plugs. Lol.
Back in the mid-nineties I owned a Citation surround processor for some years, prior to getting the Theta Casablanca 1997!

I heard a complete Citation system, amps, speakers and all in a Las Vegas AV showroom. Sucked big time. Terrible. And it wasn't the Citation SSP that's for sure.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #7829 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 09:15 AM
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It was the amps I almost guarantee it. They had an in your face sound. But there was also grain in the upper midrange that made me cringe. I kept that amp for about 6 months trying to like it. After all with all the great reviews I must be crazy. Nope couldn't get around it. My buddy still has two of them in his studio system.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #7830 of 13132 Old 02-24-2015, 02:33 PM
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I want the more musical amp. Not the last word in precision. I don't want an in your face sound either. Trying to figure out which one of these two will give me that.

I have a pair of Prometheus running in a 2 channel music only system. I'm also musician who has played in bands that have headlined in NYC clubs. The Prometheus is plenty musical.
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