The official Theta Owners Thread - Page 429 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12841 of 13244 Old 04-04-2019, 04:33 PM
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I find a few of the posts of the last number of days not to be in good form. it is fine to compare the attributes of one product over another but to trash the Theta unit in a Theta thread is poor form indeed.
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post #12842 of 13244 Old 04-04-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by P Ross View Post
I find a few of the posts of the last number of days not to be in good form. it is fine to compare the attributes of one product over another but to trash the Theta unit in a Theta thread is poor form indeed.

Who's trashing Theta the last few days? I haven't seen it.


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post #12843 of 13244 Old 04-05-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I imagine there are very few people that have compared Dirac, Trinnov, and Roomperfect in the same room with the same equipment so it comes down to speculation and opinion.
I have compared Dirac and Trinnov in the same room (mine). And if both are set up by individuals who really know the ins and out of the products and room acoustics and how to use proper measuring tools, I would be hard pressed to say one is better than the other. The Trinnov MAY do a better job of improved and more seamless immersiveness --- but I wouldn't want to compare doing it blind. The Trinnov does have a fair amount of flexibly that Dirac does not, but determining if any of that is actually audible is a different story. Where the Trinnov wins hands down, is upgrade flexibility (hardware and firmware) and handling larger speakers counts. If you have, for example, a Datasat LS10 or RS20i and have ZERO interest in adding more speakers than 7.x.4, you are in a great place.

That said, if I wanted to expand to a higher end processor from something like, for example, a Marantz or Denon or ....., then I would consider nothing but a Trinnov.
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post #12844 of 13244 Old 04-09-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jjwinterberg View Post
I'm sure you are aware that the USB input is an asynchronous input vice the AES/EBU. So the differences in sonics are most likely due to implementation limitations. Another example of the old adage, the system is only as good as its weakest link.


Are you sure that the HDMI input is for HDMI signals? I've seen a few newer DACs that use a HDMI connector to support the I2S signal interface.
EMM Labs is claiming that there implementation should not be inferior to the AES/EBU. The dac uses an updated version of their Meitner Frequency Acquisition System Technology (MFAST), for instant signal acquisition and "jitter-free" performance and a galvanically isolated USB interface. From the information, I've read EMM Labs claims it's second to none USB performance, of course they would. I mean it's $30k dac. Still the USB according to the review wasn't the best input. The HDMI inputs are being used for 2 channel audio on some new dacs like Bryston, not I2S, http://www.bryston.com/products/digi...dio/BDA-3.html . This in the description, "...four 2-channel HDMI."

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post #12845 of 13244 Old 04-09-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
You can tell almost instantly the moment you walk into an awesome room that it is something special just by the "feel" of the room and with conversation.
This is very true. Every room that I have walked into that was like this had extensive room treatments.

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post #12846 of 13244 Old 04-09-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Where the Trinnov wins hands down, is upgrade flexibility (hardware and firmware).
How could the Trinnov win on hardware? Are the dacs and associated hardware, like volume control, clocks, op-amps upgradeable? Digital outputs upgradeable? Digital inputs upgradeable? Theta wins hands down on hardware upgradeability. Dirac is steadily improving as well, so. Make the argument that it doesn't matter for something. The idea that the Trinnov is more flexible on hardware upgrades is outlandish.

Trinnov is a PC. My HTPC can outperform the Trinnov. If Trinnov sold the software, you would not even need to pay 30k for an overpriced HTPC. From a hardware standpoint, it's a rip-off.

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post #12847 of 13244 Old 04-09-2019, 10:36 PM
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No other pre-processors win the Theta Casablanca on hardware designed and built. As we all know good sound came from good hardware designed not just the software only. Once the chip base pre-processors can handle 32 native channels then PC base will be no more benefit
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post #12848 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
How could the Trinnov win on hardware? Are the dacs and associated hardware, like volume control, clocks, op-amps upgradeable? Digital outputs upgradeable? Digital inputs upgradeable? Theta wins hands down on hardware upgradeability. Dirac is steadily improving as well, so. Make the argument that it doesn't matter for something. The idea that the Trinnov is more flexible on hardware upgrades is outlandish.

Trinnov is a PC. My HTPC can outperform the Trinnov. If Trinnov sold the software, you would not even need to pay 30k for an overpriced HTPC. From a hardware standpoint, it's a rip-off.
The Casablanca is an excellent product. That said, there is so, so much I could say about your error-filled post, but clearly nothing will alter your love for Theta (and apparently massive dis-like for all things Trinnov). And let us know when you get your HTPC to perform like the over-priced Trinnov. Or ask Steve Bruzonsky why he became a "traitor" to the cause.

But this is the Theta thread, so sorry for the slightly OT post. Much to your satisfaction, I will leave this subject alone.

Enjoy.
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post #12849 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
How could the Trinnov win on hardware? Are the dacs and associated hardware, like volume control, clocks, op-amps upgradeable? Digital outputs upgradeable? Digital inputs upgradeable? Theta wins hands down on hardware upgradeability. Dirac is steadily improving as well, so. Make the argument that it doesn't matter for something. The idea that the Trinnov is more flexible on hardware upgrades is outlandish.

Trinnov is a PC. My HTPC can outperform the Trinnov. If Trinnov sold the software, you would not even need to pay 30k for an overpriced HTPC. From a hardware standpoint, it's a rip-off.
The Casablanca is an excellent product. That said, there is so, so much I could say about your error-filled post, but clearly nothing will alter your love for Theta (and apparently massive dis-like for all things Trinnov). And let us know when you get your HTPC to perform like the over-priced Trinnov. Or ask Steve Bruzonsky why he became a "traitor" to the cause.

But this is the Theta thread, so sorry for the slightly OT post. Much to your satisfaction, I will leave this subject alone.

Enjoy.
Thank you. Theta is lagging behind in features that Steve desired. No one should stay with a product that doesn’t suit their needs. Steve doesn’t owe Theta anything. He’s been their most loyal customer. Theta will have to “ get with the program,” if ATI wants to be competitive in this space. They can start by offering more filters for Dirac.
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post #12850 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
As for why as Audioguy says I became a "traitor to the cause"!

First, I am no traitor. I just ordered 2 Trinnov multi-channel amps made by ATI and shipped from ATI! HA!
Not a traitor to the ATI/Theta cause. But you have discovered that there is "light on the other side" and moved on accordingly.
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post #12851 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:11 PM
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[QUOTE=Steve Bruzonsky;57881982]Bulldogger, you know full well I am being "polite" here as this is Theta Digital's thread, and arguing about sonics gets no one anywhere. But please do not tell folks why I do something and misquote me.

Second, I could even add multiple Theta Generation VIII Series 3 DACs from digital outs of my Trinnov Altitude 32-1624 if I wanted. Though the most I would ever consider might be one.

/QUOTE] Well,excuse me. I was too trying to be polite and mistakenly thought I was coming to your defense. It was my understanding that you wanted more features like Roon Ready, ethernet connections, more filters for the corrections software? Regardless, it doesn't concern me. Anyone is free to buy what they like. As for the Gen VIII, why would you consider even one? I'll make you a deal? You don't quote or mention me, and I'll do likewise? We can move forward.

As for ATI being focused on commercial cinema, I would point you to the ATI ATP 16 to show that the company has not abandoned the consumer market. It appears to me, that they are deeply committed to consumer processors.

I would argue that ATI manufacturing a product for another company, does not make one necessarily a fan of the products it's markets under it's own consumer brands. Again, this is not my concern, what brands of which you are fond.

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post #12852 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by p ross View Post
i find a few of the posts of the last number of days not to be in good form. It is fine to compare the attributes of one product over another but to trash the theta unit in a theta thread is poor form indeed.
Indeed!

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post #12853 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
I think that's much easier said than done


For example, I have not had the Trinnov Altitude in my room. Aside from purchasing it without knowing if it will work for me or not, how else would I proceed? I'm guessing there's not any dealer that would send me a demo to try out...


Dave
It's getting more difficult to compare gear. This leaves a lot of room for marketing. You can't compare for yourself so you have to take the word of others, perhaps a dealer and some of his clients. There can be ulterior motives. For example, let say sales of a particular brand have "dried up," It can motive the dealer to move to another brand so that he can make a profit. He needs to "make a living." You really have to hear stuff yourself, otherwise you can be duped and not even realize it happened. On the internet, you can trust the opinion of people you don't even know or end users who might not appear to have a profit motive themselves. This profit could take the form of gear at much lower cost than you or I could buy it. It happens!

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post #12854 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Boonyarat View Post
No other pre-processors win the Theta Casablanca on hardware designed and built. As we all know good sound came from good hardware designed not just the software only. Once the chip base pre-processors can handle 32 native channels then PC base will be no more benefit
It's the sum total. The physical properties of the room, the quality of the hardware and the capability of the room correction. It all matters. The sound card in my HTPC just doesn't sound like my Gen VIII. The specs of a card do however, closely match the specs of some other processors for SN and such. Too bad you can't buy one of these cards with higher channel count. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...2eeec75123f047 . One could have a bedroom system that wouldn't match the 132db SNR of Theta's dacs but hell it'd be good as some of the rest of the stuff out there!

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post #12855 of 13244 Old 04-10-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
How could the Trinnov win on hardware? Are the dacs and associated hardware, like volume control, clocks, op-amps upgradeable? Digital outputs upgradeable? Digital inputs upgradeable? Theta wins hands down on hardware upgradeability. Dirac is steadily improving as well, so. Make the argument that it doesn't matter for something. The idea that the Trinnov is more flexible on hardware upgrades is outlandish.



Trinnov is a PC. My HTPC can outperform the Trinnov. If Trinnov sold the software, you would not even need to pay 30k for an overpriced HTPC. From a hardware standpoint, it's a rip-off.
To be upgradeable, both the Casablanca and Trinnov [and NAD and Emotiva] utilize a blade architecture. From a hardware standpoint they both seem quite flexible in regards to future upgradeability.

In regards to immersive audio. Using an Intel CPU and software has been proven an obvious advantage over SHARC/DSP architecture at this moment. I don't believe this will always be the case as DSPs will catch up. I believe Steve mentioned 18-ch processing is in the works for CB.

Why the negativity (Rip-off?)? I've never read a Theta or Trinnov owner even allude to feeling ripped off. Is the psychology of brand/owner identity at play?
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post #12856 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
To be upgradeable, both the Casablanca and Trinnov [and NAD and Emotiva] utilize a blade architecture. From a hardware standpoint they both seem quite flexible in regards to future upgradeability.

In regards to immersive audio. Using an Intel CPU and software has been proven an obvious advantage over SHARC/DSP architecture at this moment. I don't believe this will always be the case as DSPs will catch up. I believe Steve mentioned 18-ch processing is in the works for CB.

Why the negativity (Rip-off?)? I've never read a Theta or Trinnov owner even allude to feeling ripped off. Is the psychology of brand/owner identity at play?
Not really. The Trinnov is no more upgradable than the HTPC that I use for hometheater. Theta is designed at a "chip" level and upgraded with precision a Trinnov can not match. The Trinnov is more of a "shotgun" approach being basically a modified HTPC. Because I built my HTPC, I am very aware of what's capable and also of the technical specs of many boards and parts used in a PC. Theta's hardware exceeds the specs of what I can DIY. Trinnov, doesn't really. The box they are using is just a glorified HTPC. So yeah, a guy using an HTPC might honestly see a company basically doing the same thing and selling it for 30k as a sincere RIP OFF. I don't see what's exciting about using a cheap mother board and HTPC with an i7 for audio?

So my HTPC has an i7, and I'd bet it's faster than the Trinnov. I do own a Casablanca 3 which has sat in a box in my closet for the last 5 years. Theta can exceed the specs of what I can DIY so I still do plan to upgrade the unit.

The real question, from a psychological question, one might ask is why is the discussion of another processor being forced on this Theta thread? There is a thread for Trinnov. Why can't you go there?

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post #12857 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
Indeed!

I have a Casablanca 4 and I'm happy to have it, but, objectively, I don't see folks trashing the Theta unit in this thread. I don't have a problem at all with folks sharing their own opinions of what they think of different pieces of equipment. To me, there's been honest comments thus far - nothing denoting an agenda. For example, when it's mentioned that Theta takes a while longer to get things out, it is typically balanced with - they get it right and done well.


If anything, I see some comments that would insult the Trinnov engineers. I can't honestly believe that they would produce a product that is as noisy as a PC. It's an audiophile product, and I'm sure they had considered that in their engineering of the product.



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post #12858 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 12:09 PM
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I opened up my Trinnov ST2 when I had it and really it is like a pc with a puny power supply and architecture that looks like a computer. It really SHOULDN'T matter that it looks like a pc since it is the performance that counts. However, it does kind of go against old school audiophile dogma which suggested the need for massive overkill power supply, discrete parts etc...
I liked it for 2 channel but honestly didn't think it sounded as good as the Datasat for 2 channel even comparing both of them without any room correction applied. I don't need to justify the purchase of the Datasat because I could have bought either the Datasat or the Trinnov Altitude from my dealer friend for reasonably close to the same amount. These products are quite expensive! I get it...it's difficult to audition these products and chances are 99% of people would be happy with either the Datasat, Trinnov or Theta. People like what they like for various reasons. As the saying goes, "opinions are like a-holes...everyone has one but yours is the only one that matters".

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post #12859 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
Indeed!

I have a Casablanca 4 and I'm happy to have it, but, objectively, I don't see folks trashing the Theta unit in this thread. I don't have a problem at all with folks sharing their own opinions of what they think of different pieces of equipment. To me, there's been honest comments thus far - nothing denoting an agenda. For example, when it's mentioned that Theta takes a while longer to get things out, it is typically balanced with - they get it right and done well.


If anything, I see some comments that would insult the Trinnov engineers. I can't honestly believe that they would produce a product that is as noisy as a PC. It's an audiophile product, and I'm sure they had considered that in their engineering of the product.



Dave
If the discussion were fully transparent I’d agree. It’s not. Whether it’s downright dishonest is a matter of interpretation. I can’t speak freely. Gawd! There is so much more really going on here.

How can the product not be as noisy as a PC? There is no internal shielding within. There is a linear power supply. There are several vendors whose products are about the same for specs. Lynx and RME cards for example.

Look at this https://m.newegg.com/products/9SIA0ZX2C69135/specs It’s just 2 channel but it actually exceeds Trinnov specs. You get my point.

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post #12860 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 12:37 PM
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I haven't physically seen an Altitude but the ST2 was dead quiet - couldn't hear the fan in it. Similar level of quietness from the tweeter (tiny hiss) as my other preamps and prepros….

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post #12861 of 13244 Old 04-11-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
My understanding is that the Trinnov Amethyst is quite a bit better than the ST2, an earlier model.
They all run the same software...
And I don't think the hardware is any different apart from connection options...

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post #12862 of 13244 Old 04-13-2019, 11:33 AM
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[quote=Steve Bruzonsky;57883988]
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I never said ATI has abandoned the consumer market - the other week in this thread I discussed the upcoming ATI SSP. I simply said Theta Digital is to a large extent for hardware at the mercy of its vendors and re room correction at the mercy and schedule of Dirac. Again, do not misquote me, please.
Ok, I will not quote what you have said on this forum. What you told me via telephone that Morris was moving to the commercial market and not that interested in the Casablanca. I didn't believe you and checked, and that is the absolute truth. It wasn't the first time you told me something like that. I assumed that your dealer was telling you stuff like that to make it easier for you to move on to another brand he sold. So don't make it seem like I am being misleading. If you want we can have full disclosure on everything. I would love that.

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post #12863 of 13244 Old 04-13-2019, 11:59 AM
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I haven't physically seen an Altitude but the ST2 was dead quiet - couldn't hear the fan in it. Similar level of quietness from the tweeter (tiny hiss) as my other preamps and prepros….
I don't know about physical noise. One would assume there is more electrical noise in a PC. The Trinnov has a motherboard and i7, it is PC based of course. What is it that is supposed to cause noise inside a PC? Those exact components are inside the Trinnov. Sure Theta has noisy components as well, but each section has physical metal shielding.

It' expensive to do it. The best sounding prepro I have ever heard was the Mark Levinson No. 40 from back in the day for music. It was built like the Casablanca. I think it's a waste of effort to compare build quality between Trinnov and Theta. If you look at the build on Theta and the Mark Levinson No. 40, I think it drives home the point. I believe the shielding on the Mark Levinson is on the back side of the cards. It's easier to just say ones sound better. You can't really refute one's subjective opinion of what sounds best or, unless the person is a professional reviewer, any hidden motives.
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post #12864 of 13244 Old 04-13-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
. And arguing about build quality is stupid - its obvious Theta has a big edge on build quality against all the current SSPs out there! But what counts for me is (1) how it sounds; and then (2) all the functional and ease of use considerations are a big bonus as well!
Audioguy made the equal build quality claim. I responded. I agree. It is "stupid.". There is on comparison.

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post #12865 of 13244 Old 04-13-2019, 02:19 PM
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[quote=Steve Bruzonsky;57897298][quote=Bulldogger;57897190]
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Anyone who knows me knows better than to believe the crap Bulldogger spouts. And here I thought we were friends, not just fellow audiophiles.
Why if Bulldogger thought I was such a UKNOWWHAT he kept in contact with me all these years and acted as though we were friends heck if I know?
I understand folks losing friends over politics (though I avoid losing anyone over that), but losing friends over audiophilia. This is a first for me!
And I will not get into personal stuff or other personal conversations with Bulldogger, who as a father and husband and person I generally respect very highly - but turning my leaving Theta Casablanca SSP after all these years into a messy "divorce" between Bulldogger and me as friends is totally insane, spouting BS and false innuendo. If I had kept that Casablanca and sold the Trinnov none of this would have occurred!

What is this about my not playing for you my Theta blu ray player. Of course I did. I always have done so for movie demos. WOW!
Guys can decide who they want to believe. I feel relieved to get the truth out. Say what you will. Like all, I have a lot of short comings. Being from a small town though sometimes makes me too naïve and trusting. My word meant that much to me, that's why I didn't say anything sooner. Sometimes you have to break your word for the higher cause I guess.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #12866 of 13244 Old 04-13-2019, 05:45 PM
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[quote=Steve Bruzonsky;57897524][quote=Bulldogger;57897348]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Audiophilia is not such a "higher cause" that we should act as though we are on a crusade.
True words. Sad to see you two guys butting heads. I don't know either of you and I'm sure you're both nice people in person. Let's not see this informative thread go down the toilet...
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post #12867 of 13244 Old 04-14-2019, 07:11 AM
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[quote=The Bogg;57898120][quote=Steve Bruzonsky;57897524]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

True words. Sad to see you two guys butting heads. I don't know either of you and I'm sure you're both nice people in person. Let's not see this informative thread go down the toilet...
This thread starts,"Here you go boys...," because the original thread was closed, because of marketing. The marketing never really went away. The marketing is still here just not so overt. The discussion of Trinnov has to take place HERE, and not on the Trinnov thread. Theta customers are the primary target. When the truth comes out, sometimes it is a case of "let the chips fall where they may." I didn't see any other way to tell the truth. It was the truth that was harsh. I guess you could use the term, "whistleblower" or "snitch," depending on your perspective. A personal squabble is just going to cloud the issues. Watch me avoid that and you decide whose credible!

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #12868 of 13244 Old 04-14-2019, 10:01 AM
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Still love my THETA CB IVa and keep it as my best sound high end pre-processor
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post #12869 of 13244 Old 04-15-2019, 06:44 AM
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Hello all. I have started a thread with a similar discussion to the above, but on more “neutral ground”. Hopefully we can start fresh, diffuse a lot of the tension going on here. The debate is beyond interesting, and huge $ is at stake for those taking the plunge with a high end processor. So let’s continue this here...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post57903508
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post #12870 of 13244 Old 04-15-2019, 06:58 AM
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I was reading through the Theta thread and the ill words between Bulldogger and Steve (and I thought I was always the catalyst )?!

The odd thing about the disagreement was that the Theta, like almost every other SSP on the market is constrained to 12 - 14 speakers. If you want to double that (or more), the Theta isn't even an option?! So regardless of whether it is a PC or a solid state SSP, it's immaterial.

Steve B's configuration is impossible in the Theta. So I see no reason to argue.

Most guys in that thread have had their same or upgraded units for 20 years or more... It's all they know - so, they believe nothing better exists and you'll never move them. Like yelling at a wall.

Both are good sounding - just completely different applications.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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