Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 163 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4861 of 6045 Old 07-17-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
I did an upgrade to the RS20 from the LS10. While they should sound "the same" it seemed much more effortless from the RS20i. I found out it has 9 DSPs vs 3 on the LS10. It is really worth the upgrade
Actually the Ls10 now has 5 dsp's

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post #4862 of 6045 Old 07-17-2017, 12:55 PM
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Actually the Ls10 now has 5 dsp's
you are correct. I meant that the next closest competitor has 3.
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post #4863 of 6045 Old 07-17-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
I did an upgrade to the RS20 from the LS10. While they should sound "the same" it seemed much more effortless from the RS20i. I found out it has 9 DSPs vs 3 on the LS10. It is really worth the upgrade
The RS20i has the ability to use PEQ's prior to Dirac - which in turn allows you to deal with any narrow band high energy peaks in the uncorrected response - assuming you have any. In my experience, Dirac did not deal with those very well but using the PEQ's prior to Dirac I do get much better measurable response. And if you do that for all 11 channels, you can end up with more uniform channel to channel response - which can mean better envelopment.

Is it easily audible - or even audible at all? My expectation bias says yes - and I refuse to do a blind test because it is too much work.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

What I am comfortable saying is that the RS20i (along with DTS:X and Neural:X) provide the best audio I have ever heard in my home. And the few HT systems I have heard outside of my home (e.g. CEDIA) that I thought sounded as good - or in one case better - were each driven by Datasat RS20i's
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post #4864 of 6045 Old 07-18-2017, 09:36 AM
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The RS20i has the ability to use PEQ's prior to Dirac - which in turn allows you to deal with any narrow band high energy peaks in the uncorrected response - assuming you have any. In my experience, Dirac did not deal with those very well but using the PEQ's prior to Dirac I do get much better measurable response. And if you do that for all 11 channels, you can end up with more uniform channel to channel response - which can mean better envelopment.

Is it easily audible - or even audible at all? My expectation bias says yes - and I refuse to do a blind test because it is too much work.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

What I am comfortable saying is that the RS20i (along with DTS:X and Neural:X) provide the best audio I have ever heard in my home. And the few HT systems I have heard outside of my home (e.g. CEDIA) that I thought sounded as good - or in one case better - were each driven by Datasat RS20i's
I mean, you can easily test it and have a full Dirac EQed setting without PEQ and one with PEQ. Theoretically and from the 'feeling' POV that all REQ systems do something wrong, the approach to use PEQ prior to REQ and therefore make the REQ work less, is quite understandable and reasonable for me. Personally, it is too much work for me to use REW and EQ each single channel, before I use DIRAC. I am very happy with the DIRAC results and have checked them once on one speaker with REW. The result was very good and close to what DIRAC was trying to achieve. See below - different smoothing.

But I agree to your point of view. It is always OK to do a manual PEQ before DIRAC, at least in my opinion. And I am not saying that you cannot improve DIRAC by fine tuning or by using PEQ.
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post #4865 of 6045 Old 07-18-2017, 11:04 AM
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I mean, you can easily test it and have a full Dirac EQed setting without PEQ and one with PEQ.
Definitely too much work ... but when I run out of things to do, I just may do it !!
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post #4866 of 6045 Old 07-18-2017, 11:29 AM
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post #4867 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 03:36 AM
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Every time I've heard a comparison between full-range vs below-Schroeder with Dirac (or Trinnov), I've always ended up preferring full-range correction. That's probably because good room correction doesn't try to EQ the hair/grass in the high frequencies but instead does broad tonal shaping of the overall sound for speaker-to-speaker consistency. Even Audyssey XT32 does this.

Take Toole's comments in the context of what he considers good speakers: wide dispersion, flat anechoic response on-axis, consistent and smoothly changing response off-axis. Speakers typically radiate like a lantern in the lower frequencies and beam more like a flashlight at higher frequencies (not much influence from the room). So above a certain frequency, equalization is no longer doing room correction but instead doing speaker correction. IF you're using the type of well behaved speakers that Toole describes AND you like how they sound, then there isn't much need to EQ them. Or so the theory goes.
With full-range frequency correction, directional speakers which are not sufficiently aimed at MLP/measuring location can exhibit exaggerated highs for those sitting closer to on-axis. If that happens, limiting the correction to the lower frequencies might give better average results. I believe at a Trinnov class held at Pro Audio Technologies such limiting was applied (up to 120 or 200 Hz IIRC).

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post #4868 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 05:18 AM
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With full-range frequency correction, directional speakers which are not sufficiently aimed at MLP/measuring location can exhibit exaggerated highs for those sitting closer to on-axis. If that happens, limiting the correction to the lower frequencies might give better average results. I believe at a Trinnov class held at Pro Audio Technologies such limiting was applied (up to 120 or 200 Hz IIRC).
Here is a slightly different view.

If using full range correction and with speakers that are not sufficiently aimed at the MLP, using wider microphone placement during measurement can help deal with that issue.

My speakers ARE aimed at the MLP and I do use full correction. What I have discovered with the 77 bazillion corrections I have done in my room is that if I use the very narrow spacing (as shown on the Dirac screen when measuring for a single seat) I can, on occasion have some upper midrange glare and/or high frequency "bite". That may be caused when Dirac sees a narrow band dip in that frequency range and creates the filter to fix it. It is not atypical that if I move to wider measurement positions (but not as wide as the couch diagram), that problem disappears. That same technique would also help deal with the problem you described.

One of the many beauties of Dirac on the RS20i (and maybe even the LS10) is that you can create filters using different measuring positions for separate groups of speakers. In my case, I measure LCR's as a group, surrounds as a group, heights as a group and LFE as a group and then place each of those groups into the same Dirac slot. I also, therefore, have the ability to use different mic placement for each of those groups. So I do use wider mic placement for the LCR's than I do for any of the other groups. I also don't need to concern myself with the mic being out of direct line of site for the LCR's by where I put the mic. And, for example, when I measure the surrounds, I don't use the same measuring positions I do for the LCR's as I DO need to be concerned about blocking the mic from the speaker because of the back of the seat. And lastly, this allows me to only remeasure that group of speakers if I make a change to that group. For example, I will be replacing my height speakers at the beginning of next month and will only need to re-measure those. In my case, the primary benefit of this feature is the constant "diddling" I do with my subs in trying to achieve what I know they are capable of. I only need to re-measure one speaker (4 feeds 13) and it takes a very short amount of time.

Lastly, Dirac does not seem to do much correction in the higher frequencies. In some cases, it looks like it does none.

All of that to say, I have not found any downside of using full frequency correction. I don’t know anything about how Trinnov does room correction so maybe there is more benefit of not doing full range for that product.
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post #4869 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If using full range correction and with speakers that are not sufficiently aimed at the MLP, using wider microphone placement during measurement can help deal with that issue.
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All of that to say, I have not found any downside of using full frequency correction. I don’t know anything about how Trinnov does room correction so maybe there is more benefit of not doing full range for that product.
Indeed, using multiple locations spread over the entire listening area seems to be the appropriate way in such situations. Like Dirac, the Trinnov Optimizer allows for advanced multi-point measurement (instead of using an averaged response, every single measurement point is taken into account, and each point can individually be weighted).

So to avoid any more guessing from my part, I will take this to the Altitude thread, and try to get some more details from the people who actually attended named workshop ...

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post #4870 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
With full-range frequency correction, directional speakers which are not sufficiently aimed at MLP/measuring location can exhibit exaggerated highs for those sitting closer to on-axis. If that happens, limiting the correction to the lower frequencies might give better average results.
You can always find speakers to support the idea of limiting the correction. Likewise, you can use speakers with wide dispersion and consistent off-axis response to show that full range correction benefits every seat. I really do think this comes down to a case-by-case basis, with multiple variables at play in each case: speakers, room, treatments, and what type of correction is being done once you transition out of the modal range. That's why I can't support a blanket statement on this topic. It might be fashionable these days to say that limiting correction to below-Schroeder is better, but that hasn't been my personal experience (at least with competent room correction systems).
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post #4871 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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I need some advice / personal experience recommendations.

I have a dedicated theater room and currently use the Datasat LS10 with Dirac and Atmos and have an opportunity to purchase a used RS20i. I have a 7.4.4 Atmos setup and wonder if there is any real reason to move to the 20i in my small (14ft x 25ft) theater. Is there any additional capability in the Dirac implementation in the 20i?

The one area that the 20i is better is the fact that it can address all four of my subs separately but no way to know if this will improve sound quality.

There are also some additional EQ settings but again not sure if they will make any difference.
Farsider, I saw your post in the Trinnov thread about you considering the RS20 vs the Altitude 16. I can offer some opinions but as the saying goes, opinions are like a$$holes; everyone has one but the only one that matters is your own.

I had the Trinnov ST2 and I had considered the Altitude vs the RS20 and for various reasons I went with the RS20. Both are excellent products with each having some strengths over the other from a functional point of view. The ST2 was used for 2 channel in my system and obviously I can't compare multichannel Trinnov vs RS20. But I can say that for 2 channel I have found the RS20 to be a really good performer. I initially thought there must be some eq on because the bass was much better than with the Trinnov. On the RS20 it said "eq1" on the display so I figured it was a basic eq that boosted the bass or something. Turns out it is NOT an eq curve, it is the default setting of no eq. The speakers and listening position etc haven't changed so that wouldn't explain the bass difference. This was pre-dirac with no filters on at all.

I liked the Trinnov approach but I did find that unless you were "perfect" about the orientation of the microphone then you would introduce a little timing error which would definitely impact the imaging for 2 channel. Dirac was more forgiving and easier to get a really good result (based on my experience with the Emotiva XMC1). I'm currently setting up the Dirac in the RS20 and will comment again after that's done.

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post #4872 of 6045 Old 07-20-2017, 08:04 PM
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Lots of great responses. Thanks to everyone. My bass response sounds so good right now with the two JTR Captivator S2 in front and the S1 in the rear along with my two Seaton Submersives on the side walls I am not sure how much better it can get (with the RS20i ability to calibrate 4 subs), but I have been wrong before about how much better my room can sound (like when I owned two JL Audio F112 speakers and thought they were amazing ).

There are compromises like the fact that I will have to buy a high end switcher that can be automated.

hmmm. I will have to ponder this some more especially since the Trinnov Altitude 16 is coming. It's a cool time to be alive isn't it? Many amazing audio technologies available right now.

It does sound like the RS20i can make it possible to take my theater room to a higher level. Now I will have to decide if I want to put money into the 2014 RS20i or sell my LS10 and buy the Trinnov.

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post #4873 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 06:20 AM
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It does sound like the RS20i can make it possible to take my theater room to a higher level. Now I will have to decide if I want to put money into the 2014 RS20i or sell my LS10 and buy the Trinnov.
I don't recall your channel count. What, in your mind, it the real advantage of switching to the Trinnov vs the LS10 or RS20i?

I also don't recall how you are "managing" all of your subs now. Which SSP are you using? Based upon a lot of experience in the rooms I have set up (lots of others as well as my own), the best way to get the most out of all of those subs is to correct them as a group, not individually, though, on occasion that can work. The RS20i (provides both options) but an external device (e.g. miniDSP) may still be necessary to get them all to work at the very optimum level.

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post #4874 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 06:43 PM
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Rumor is Datasat is sold, and not good news for the home market. Purportedly a press release coming over the weekend...

I'm guessing the sale was to a pro industry entity and the home side is being discontinued. Tough news if true...
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post #4875 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 07:00 PM
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Rumor is Datasat is sold, and not good news for the home market. Purportedly a press release coming over the weekend...

I'm guessing the sale was to a pro industry entity and the home side is being discontinued. Tough news if true...
There were also rumors on the British forum and by a poster to Home Theatre Enthusiasts that Datasat was showing off a new pre-pro at CEDIA. Who knows what the truths are...

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post #4876 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 07:02 PM
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There were also rumors on the British forum and by a poster to Home Theatre Enthusiasts that Datasat was showing off a new pre-pro at CEDIA. Who knows what the truths are...
This came from someone involved in the distribution of Datasat products (US)
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post #4877 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 08:27 PM
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Rumor is Datasat is sold, and not good news for the home market. Purportedly a press release coming over the weekend...

I'm guessing the sale was to a pro industry entity and the home side is being discontinued. Tough news if true...
Guys

Very much not pro industry purchase.

I am going to detail a bit more what's happening in a post shortly.

Thx
Craig
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post #4878 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 08:57 PM
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Bloody hell. I hope you have some good news Craig.
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post #4879 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 09:04 PM
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I'm guessing the sale was to a pro industry entity and the home side is being discontinued. Tough news if true...
This seems unlikely to me. The content business has gone away with the demise of film as an exhibition format (the occasional 70mm release such as Dunkirk excepted), and while they still sell the AP20 cinema processor to movie theaters, that product is greatly overshadowed in volume and revenue by the home theatre lineup of LS10, RS20i and the amplifiers. It wouldn't make any sense at all to discontinue the home side of the business, since that *is* the business.

Eagerly awaiting any real news and the press release!
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post #4880 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 09:10 PM
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This seems unlikely to me. The content business has gone away with the demise of film as an exhibition format (the occasional 70mm release such as Dunkirk excepted), and while they still sell the AP20 cinema processor to movie theaters, that product is greatly overshadowed in volume and revenue by the home theatre lineup of LS10, RS20i and the amplifiers. It wouldn't make any sense at all to discontinue the home side of the business, since that *is* the business.

Eagerly awaiting any real news and the press release!
I hope you're correct...there wasn't much detail except to say it was not good news for the home cinema market (and good news for Trinnov, though not sure if that was said for a specific reason or more generally from a competitor dropping out)...but hopefully Craig or someone will have more positive info.

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post #4881 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 11:11 PM
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Ok Boys , Here we go -

Datasat was acquired by Morris Kessler of ATI.

Over the coming days you will see some press releases and more and more info but let me shed some light on this tonight.

As one of Morris's dealers and friend, I can tell you that there is no better person in this industry to have stepped up and bought Datasat. As he has done with Theta he will make Datasat a huge success. Datasat as you guys know is a fantastic pre-processor company and honestly they made me very nervous over the years as I had the largest installed base of Theta Casablancas in the world and I was losing people to Datasat. I myself became a Datasat dealer years ago to make sure I could offer the best solutions regardless of the brand.

My first setup of an RS20 years back showed me how capable these guys were and how they could dominate the Pre-
Pro Market. The Audiophiles of course cling to Theta with their Dac flexibility and overall sound but the Theater Enthusiasts were flocking to Datasat. The Setup and EQ capability of the LS and RS machines are incredible as you guys know.

Morris Kessler who by the way owns Amplifier Technologies and under that umbrella has B&K, BGW, Theta Digital and also OEM produces Amplifiers for many of the companies all which you know so well.

Morris has been producing amplifiers as long or longer than anyone else in the business and he is the guy who started SAE back in the day which was amazing Audiophile gear. He loves this business and continues to pour his resources into his brands and Datasat will be better than ever with him behind the wheel.

Keep this in mind - One of the early engineers of the Theta Casablanca Dave Kerstetter is working at Datasat and is very much behind lots of the RS20 and LS10 design. He is now under the umbrella of ATI which should be great for all these brands. In theory ATI and their high end brands like Theta and Datasat can share tech and allow for both brands to grow like never before.

This is good news my friends and will allow Datasat and Theta to grow in a way they couldn't before. Morris's resources are the best there are and he will take Datasat places they would have never gotten to.

Lots more good news to come.

Thanks
Craig Shumer
Theatermax LLC
www.theatermax.com

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post #4882 of 6045 Old 07-21-2017, 11:18 PM
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This is actually great news! Thanks for the updated info Craig..

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post #4883 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 02:10 AM
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@VGI
Good news it seems Craig - thanks for that clarification
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post #4884 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 07:32 AM
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This is actually great news! Thanks for the updated info Craig..
It may or may not be good news. Theta has not exactly been a hallmark of getting to market quickly with new technology. SLOW with their HDMI product and even slower with the addition of Dirac.

Let's just hope that whatever bottlenecks have been in the way of timely product offering from Theta don't affect Datasat, that while not the fastest to get products to market, was a lot faster than Theta.

Time will tell!!

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post #4885 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 07:58 AM
 
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Datasat was propelled by the ap-20 in the cinema , Dolby was really upset for years their sales of the cp-650 processor went to crap. That money is what funded the residential arm, and the engineering of the ap-20 was so far ahead thanks to Carl and Dave that they were able to milk the cow. Then the cinema expansion to digital slowed down, and now you can get an ims3000 media sevrver from dolby but basically made by dormi which they acquired. The media server that the projector needs now has a full blown surround processor built in in 7.1 for like 13k. If you want to convert it to 64 channels all you have to do is pay a 16 k license and then it becomes a 24K atmos cp-850 with 64 channels AND 12 tops. This IMS-3000 will work with some led walls.

Datasat also had a contract to build BARCO AURO processor based on the same platform, with object based auromax the new barco processors went to a nother oem. Add that to the perfect storm that took the cinema processors from Explosive growth to red on the bottom line in 7 years.

The Point being The next gen processor and amplifiers from both brands should be similar, just like gm sells buick, gmc, chevrolet and olds.

It is good for datasat owners that you don't have a brick in your hands, there will be a new processor line for both based on a common architectures but slight differentiators, and ncore amps will come to datasat which is a great nut-saver for older folks like us.
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Last edited by CINERAMAX; 07-22-2017 at 08:05 AM.
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post #4886 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 11:01 AM
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I don't recall your channel count. What, in your mind, it the real advantage of switching to the Trinnov vs the LS10 or RS20i?

I also don't recall how you are "managing" all of your subs now. Which SSP are you using? Based upon a lot of experience in the rooms I have set up (lots of others as well as my own), the best way to get the most out of all of those subs is to correct them as a group, not individually, though, on occasion that can work. The RS20i (provides both options) but an external device (e.g. miniDSP) may still be necessary to get them all to work at the very optimum level.
I like the idea of the 3D remapping to fine tune the speaker locations. But not sure how effective this is.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #4887 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 11:06 AM
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On screen display

How is everyone doing simple things like seeing the volume that the LS-10 is set to when passing a 4k signal? When on a 1080P source the LS-10 will output a tiny on screen indication of the volume level but this goes away when displaying a 4k source.

Does the RS-20i offer better on screen display options? Any word on how this will work when the new HDMI 2.0 board comes out?

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #4888 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 11:07 AM
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I like the idea of the 3D remapping to fine tune the speaker locations. But not sure how effective this is.
Based upon the reading I have done, if the speakers are close to where they belong, you buy very little with 3D remapping. Unless I had a room with current or soon-to-be large speaker count, the Trinnov would not even be under consideration if it were me.

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post #4889 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 03:37 PM
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How is everyone doing simple things like seeing the volume that the LS-10 is set to when passing a 4k signal? When on a 1080P source the LS-10 will output a tiny on screen indication of the volume level but this goes away when displaying a 4k source.

Does the RS-20i offer better on screen display options? Any word on how this will work when the new HDMI 2.0 board comes out?
No, it doesn't at all and has no picture overlay at all, nor any video conversation. I just installed a Control4 system to control all my equipment, but this is relatively expensive and you need an installer. Then you get a volume indication on the tablet they offer but no overlay.

Thank you to Craig and Peter and all the others for this new information about the change of ownership of Datasat. I see a lot of problems for the existing Datasat platforms and I am thinking, that they are EOL. I hope not but we will see what will happen and I don't have the best hopes for it. Peter described this very well in my understanding. RS and LS are based on the AP20 and this star is definitely declining. My feeling is, this is a dead end. Something new will come, I am sure but it won't have anything in common with the LS or RS platform and we are left alone or get - at best - an offer for an upgrade, if at all.
Well, maybe I am seeing this too black but it could happen.

On the other hand, I also don't see any new developments in the sound formats. We have now the ceiling layer and there will be no floor layer, as far as my judgment goes. We have a height layer from Auro and a VOG. What else could come?
Therefore, I think, I can enjoy - and others too - my/their RS20i and LS10 for quite some time.
Just my 2 cents
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post #4890 of 6045 Old 07-22-2017, 04:32 PM
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No, it doesn't at all and has no picture overlay at all, nor any video conversation. I just installed a Control4 system to control all my equipment, but this is relatively expensive and you need an installer. Then you get a volume indication on the tablet they offer but no overlay.

Thank you to Craig and Peter and all the others for this new information about the change of ownership of Datasat. I see a lot of problems for the existing Datasat platforms and I am thinking, that they are EOL. I hope not but we will see what will happen and I don't have the best hopes for it. Peter described this very well in my understanding. RS and LS are based on the AP20 and this star is definitely declining. My feeling is, this is a dead end. Something new will come, I am sure but it won't have anything in common with the LS or RS platform and we are left alone or get - at best - an offer for an upgrade, if at all.
Well, maybe I am seeing this too black but it could happen.

On the other hand, I also don't see any new developments in the sound formats. We have now the ceiling layer and there will be no floor layer, as far as my judgment goes. We have a height layer from Auro and a VOG. What else could come?
Therefore, I think, I can enjoy - and others too - my/their RS20i and LS10 for quite some time.
Just my 2 cents
My guess is that we will see further refinement using new acoustic models that further enhance the surround bubble but at some point we will have rung out all the improvements that science can offer. The acoustic engineer I am working with suspects maybe Dirac Unison is next for the home environment (I don't know too much about Unison). I agree that there are not too many locations left to add speakers unless we just line all the walls and ceiling with small speakers (maybe this will come as speaker wallpaper some day.. idea trademarked by farsider3000 ). I am actually surprised that the home theater market thrives since literally none of my friends or colleagues that can afford a theater give a care about Dolby Atmos or 4,000 watt subwoofers.
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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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