Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 169 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5041 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
No he doesnt have the rs20i for demo. But just take your rs20i with you to their place. Their 8802 cinemike version is about the same as your rs20i will sound sound after tuning. Only the rs20i got dirac and the 8802 doesnt. But they will compare them both without correction. Dont forget your player...
Why did I spent so much money for the RS20i, if an 8802 would have done the same? I am really asking myself, do I want my RS20i to sound like a Marantz? I have my doubts, that it is possible - in general - to change the sound and the resolution of an SSP by just changing op-amps, capacitors and the power supply and even many more smaller things. I mean I am sure, that it is possible to achieve some improvement but not this much. If some of this you can really hear and say that everything is half the price of the RS20i, then I am asking myself, why buy an RS20i and spent an additional 8000 for it, if the sound afterwards is not as good as a tuned Marantz 8802A for a total of - let's say - 15000 compared to 35000?

BTW, can you please explain where you had pain points with the RS20i and were they cured by the tuning? Thank you in advance.
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post #5042 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
No he doesnt have the rs20i for demo. But just take your rs20i with you to their place. Their 8802 cinemike version is about the same as your rs20i will sound sound after tuning. Only the rs20i got dirac and the 8802 doesnt. But they will compare them both without correction. Dont forget your player...


If you choose to make the comparison, insist on doing it blind and insist they are PERFECTLY level matched. If not, you will pick the one that is 1/2 dB (or less) louder. Do NOT get fooled!!!!! If you can hear any differences under these two conditions, then you get to make an informed decision!


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post #5043 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 01:10 PM
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In the analog world, some upgrades made sense to me, but when all digital (or mostly), I am not so convinced. That is only my opinion as I have not compared as such.
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post #5044 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 01:28 PM
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In the analog world, some upgrades made sense to me, but when all digital (or mostly), I am not so convinced. That is only my opinion as I have not compared as such.
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe I am taking this all too personally, but knowing what is inside the RS20i and the people involved in it's design, I can only be skeptical of the value of the alleged improvement to the RS20i by Cinemike.
____________
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post #5045 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe I am taking this all too personally, but knowing what is inside the RS20i and the people involved in it's design, I can only be skeptical of the value of the alleged improvement to the RS20i by Cinemike.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Thank you Carl and this is exactly what I am thinking. Sorry, but it sounds big advertisement to me that a Marantz 8802A - touched by the magical hands of Mr. Cinemike - sounds better than an RS20i. Even I believe that he is not selling snake oil, I attended one of his 'house fairs' and when Mr. Krehl himself, was putting an HD-DVD (yes, it was this time) into a de-magnetizer, I started to ask myself what is this guy doing??? Putting polycarbonate into a de-magnetizer? What the hell is this good for, in the case that a laser is reading 'pits'? Since then, I also have been quite skeptical about what Cinemike does.
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post #5046 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 04:09 PM
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As the saying goes, there's one born every minute.

Taking a well engineered product and altering bits of it may have unintended as well as intended consequences. Are we to believe this guy bought an RS20 and went through the painstaking process of reverse engineering it and changing parts, and then listening to the changes, then repeating the process until he made an improvement??? I'm thinking he took some of the capacitors and resistors in the power supply and replaced them with name brand ones (such as Vishay, Caddock, Elna etc....).

I've critically evaluated the RS20 in my pretty decent system and if anyone thinks it's sound is underwhelming or lacking then I would guess they had poo in their ears. I've compared it's sound quality without room correction to the Trinnov and to high end preamps and it's a really good sounding unit. I have no blind brand loyalty and if it didn't make the grade I would have swapped it for the Trinnov. Or the Marantz, lol.

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post #5047 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
As the saying goes, there's one born every minute.



Taking a well engineered product and altering bits of it may have unintended as well as intended consequences. Are we to believe this guy bought an RS20 and went through the painstaking process of reverse engineering it and changing parts, and then listening to the changes, then repeating the process until he made an improvement??? I'm thinking he took some of the capacitors and resistors in the power supply and replaced them with name brand ones (such as Vishay, Caddock, Elna etc....).



I've critically evaluated the RS20 in my pretty decent system and if anyone thinks it's sound is underwhelming or lacking then I would guess they had poo in their ears. I've compared it's sound quality without room correction to the Trinnov and to high end preamps and it's a really good sounding unit. I have no blind brand loyalty and if it didn't make the grade I would have swapped it for the Trinnov. Or the Marantz, lol.


So you take a $3000 product, modify some parts that probably cost $50 in the hands of the "magic man" and ..... poof, it is better than a $25,000 product! Seriously??? Delusional comes to mind!


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post #5048 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 06:26 PM
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Scepticism around upgrades is always healthy but in the end it is the purchaser who can only decide if the investment was worth it.


Whether the upgrade delivered any real benefit or not is, for the purchaser, a potentially moot point. It could actually only be a personally perceived improvement undetectable by anyone else. If the purchaser believes that there is a discernible upgrade then that is really all that matters for them. If they are actually mistaken in their perception it doesn't really matter because that benefit is 'real' for them.


It is also reasonable for anyone else to challenge a claim of any improvement unless they personally are satisfied they can also perceive a difference worth the cost of the upgrade (or independent empirical data can validate the purchaser's claim to satisfy the other person of the actual benefit).


Thankfully we can all make our own decisions while respecting the opinions of others, even though we may not agree with them.


In a similar vein I am currently modifying a car - I believe I have improved its handling/ride but others may not agree with my interpretation of that improvement (eg some may prefer a softer ride while other may prefer it to ride harder). Luckily it is fairly easy for me to measure improvements in at least someway, such as any improvement in track times based on my changes.
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post #5049 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 08:25 PM
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According to the Cinemike website the Datasat RS20 upgrade apparently puts it over their 7702MK2 but under their 8802A.
Quote:
It is arranged between Cinemike 7702MK2 Level 2 and 8802A Level 2.
After reading this and other (especially their Emotiva amplifier) upgrades I'm convinced that this is a guy preying on unsuspecting "audiophiles".

Are AVS members actually falling for this?
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post #5050 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 08:27 PM
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@stephenbr have you tried a turbonator?
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post #5051 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Why did I spent so much money for the RS20i, if an 8802 would have done the same? I am really asking myself, do I want my RS20i to sound like a Marantz? I have my doubts, that it is possible - in general - to change the sound and the resolution of an SSP by just changing op-amps, capacitors and the power supply and even many more smaller things. I mean I am sure, that it is possible to achieve some improvement but not this much. If some of this you can really hear and say that everything is half the price of the RS20i, then I am asking myself, why buy an RS20i and spent an additional 8000 for it, if the sound afterwards is not as good as a tuned Marantz 8802A for a total of - let's say - 15000 compared to 35000?

BTW, can you please explain where you had pain points with the RS20i and were they cured by the tuning? Thank you in advance.
I know it sounds stupid bij placing the Rs20i below the Av8802 whats on their website. But let me explain it. The best is to go yourself to Cinemike and ask for a demontration.
Does somebody listen to music on this Rs20i? Did anyone compare it`s RS20i to the Theta CB4? Or maybe the theta DAC generation 8? Everybody knows the Theta is better with music.
The RS20i is good is placing object and it gives a lot of detail, but lacks with music scenes. The movie fury (1h 14m), the bombs are dropping on the village and it sounds awesome, after that the music is comming in. But the music sounds without en lacks of present, no surround sound feeling for me.
After the tuning i still kept the great peformance but now got the best of the best... of 2 worlds.

After tuning:
- Very big surround bubble, before it was hardly there.
- Deeper soundstage
- More realistic sound, a violin sound like a violin and not like a shoebox with a snare.
- Details are even better present.

Why i wanted the RS20I, soundwise i preffered the Theta but lacked on functions and looks. The AV8802 Cinemike was an option but lacks on a good correction. So the Rs20i was the option. I bought it but almost sold it because i missed things in the Datasat, that`s the point where i started to talk with Cinemike. It was my last hope, otherwise i would have bought the Theta.

I don`t want to sell anything but just share my experiences, it`s all about prefer with audio. I was sceptic to and lucky i am very satisfied with the results.
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post #5052 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 11:02 PM
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@stephenbr have you tried a turbonator?

Funny you say that - when considering Cold Air Intakes I nearly got 'sucked in' by that product. Due diligence prevailed however!
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post #5053 of 6044 Old 08-29-2017, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Scepticism around upgrades is always healthy but in the end it is the purchaser who can only decide if the investment was worth it.


Whether the upgrade delivered any real benefit or not is, for the purchaser, a potentially moot point. It could actually only be a personally perceived improvement undetectable by anyone else. If the purchaser believes that there is a discernible upgrade then that is really all that matters for them. If they are actually mistaken in their perception it doesn't really matter because that benefit is 'real' for them.


It is also reasonable for anyone else to challenge a claim of any improvement unless they personally are satisfied they can also perceive a difference worth the cost of the upgrade (or independent empirical data can validate the purchaser's claim to satisfy the other person of the actual benefit).


Thankfully we can all make our own decisions while respecting the opinions of others, even though we may not agree with them.


In a similar vein I am currently modifying a car - I believe I have improved its handling/ride but others may not agree with my interpretation of that improvement (eg some may prefer a softer ride while other may prefer it to ride harder). Luckily it is fairly easy for me to measure improvements in at least someway, such as any improvement in track times based on my changes.
Exactly. Even my friends and girlfriend heard the difference. Its up to them if they like the difference. In my case they al told it was a huge improvement.
Its a shame i dont know rs20i owners in my area and let them compare both units next to eachother in a blind test.
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post #5054 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 12:08 AM
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...Its a shame i dont know rs20i owners in my area and let them compare both units next to eachother in a blind test.
I thought he was against blind tests.

Quote:
(Translated to English with Chrome)A blind test represents a non-practical stress situation for the subjects. Because of constant changeover and the forced situation differences have to be determined or have to be, it is almost impossible to get a result at all. In addition, the compro- mation of the test set-up is generally used, B. simultaneous operation of the devices (keyword high-frequency derivation !!!) or switch-overs or devices not phased, different setup, etc ....
Therefore, they will not find a blind test that would ever have a usable result ...
For this reason, we exclusively make comparisons of the devices one after the other with completely identical conditions. Same set-up, same cable, same software ... This also corresponds to the practice at the customer's home. There no one sits down and switches every 10 seconds, but he hears his devices in peace.
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post #5055 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Scepticism around upgrades is always healthy but in the end it is the purchaser who can only decide if the investment was worth it.


Whether the upgrade delivered any real benefit or not is, for the purchaser, a potentially moot point. It could actually only be a personally perceived improvement undetectable by anyone else. If the purchaser believes that there is a discernible upgrade then that is really all that matters for them. If they are actually mistaken in their perception it doesn't really matter because that benefit is 'real' for them.


It is also reasonable for anyone else to challenge a claim of any improvement unless they personally are satisfied they can also perceive a difference worth the cost of the upgrade (or independent empirical data can validate the purchaser's claim to satisfy the other person of the actual benefit).


Thankfully we can all make our own decisions while respecting the opinions of others, even though we may not agree with them.
I agree that we all need to make our own decisions but a healthy amount of folks that come to AVSforum, come for help and advice because they really don't know what they need/want. It bugs me to see claims of vast improvement with mods that costs so much when there is little evidence and where money can 100% be better spent elsewhere in most cases. I find this on par when people willing take unearned money from the elderly do to the elderly person not fully understanding a situation.

Masterkale has been pushing these mods on the forums since 2014 and they encompass the majority of his posts. A bit shady if one were to ask me. If he enjoys it, that is fantastic but how much does one need to continue to push on others while advice from well established professionals is ignored. Just my thoughts, I will drop it since we are off topic.
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post #5056 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 01:18 AM
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I agree that we all need to make our own decisions but a healthy amount of folks that come to AVSforum, come for help and advice because they really don't know what they need/want. It bugs me to see claims of vast improvement with mods that costs so much when there is little evidence and where money can 100% be better spent elsewhere in most cases. I find this on par when people willing take unearned money from the elderly do to the elderly person not fully understanding a situation.

Masterkale has been pushing these mods on the forums since 2014 and they encompass the majority of his posts. A bit shady if one were to ask me. If he enjoys it, that is fantastic but how much does one need to continue to push on others while advice from well established professionals is ignored. Just my thoughts, I will drop it since we are off topic.

Why did Joerod modified his oppo Player? Ask him. In the reviews it`s the best 4k player in the world

I am not here to sell stuff because i simply don`t earn a penny on it. I just want to open eyes for people that are interested.
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post #5057 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe I am taking this all too personally, but knowing what is inside the RS20i and the people involved in it's design, I can only be skeptical of the value of the alleged improvement to the RS20i by Cinemike.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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As the saying goes, there's one born every minute.
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
So you take a $3000 product, modify some parts that probably cost $50 in the hands of the "magic man" and ..... poof, it is better than a $25,000 product! Seriously??? Delusional comes to mind!
I'm glad you guys stepped in to make a comment - I literally had to sit on my hands and grit my teeth to not respond to this nonsense when I first saw it posted.


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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
In a similar vein I am currently modifying a car - I believe I have improved its handling/ride but others may not agree with my interpretation of that improvement (eg some may prefer a softer ride while other may prefer it to ride harder). Luckily it is fairly easy for me to measure improvements in at least someway, such as any improvement in track times based on my changes.
A very considered and measured response as always Stephen, nicely put. Therein lies the crux of the point though (in bold), you can (if you can be bothered) empirically test and measure any changes you make to your car, they're not 'fairy dust' changes. Lest we forget, this is the AV Science forum.

I genuinely think this Cinemike guy is intentionally selling snake oil - and we're not talking a few hundred quid here, we're talking thousands and thousands of Euros that I believe Masterkale spent on these RS20i 'mods' - and to do what, do a direct 1:1 swap of a hand full of parts that might have a slightly different tolerance. If he was swapping out the power supplies, and swapping for his own DAC/analogue section/board it might justify it a little more but seriously, a few capacitors etc?

It's Masterkales money (assuming Masterkale isn't actually Cinemike), and I truly believe in live-and-let-live, what he does with it is entirely his business - but I really feel compelled to comment when someone (i.e. Cinemike) is openly scamming people for profit. If it happened in any other area of life trading standards authorities would step in (imagine if a supermarket tried to sell a $1000 can of beans saying it made you more intelligent!), but for some reason in hifi/audio, some of these things go completely unchecked.
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post #5058 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 02:26 AM
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I'm glad you guys stepped in to make a comment - I literally had to sit on my hands and grit my teeth to not respond to this nonsense when I first saw it posted.




A very considered and measured response as always Stephen, nicely put. Therein lies the crux of the point though (in bold), you can (if you can be bothered) empirically test and measure any changes you make to your car, they're not 'fairy dust' changes. Lest we forget, this is the AV Science forum.

I genuinely think this Cinemike guy is intentionally selling snake oil - and we're not talking a few hundred quid here, we're talking thousands and thousands of Euros that I believe Masterkale spent on these RS20i 'mods' - and to do what, do a direct 1:1 swap of a hand full of parts that might have a slightly different tolerance. If he was swapping out the power supplies, and swapping for his own DAC/analogue section/board it might justify it a little more but seriously, a few capacitors etc?

It's Masterkales money (assuming Masterkale isn't actually Cinemike), and I truly believe in live-and-let-live, what he does with it is entirely his business - but I really feel compelled to comment when someone (i.e. Cinemike) is openly scamming people for profit. If it happened in any other area of life trading standards authorities would step in (imagine if a supermarket tried to sell a $1000 can of beans saying it made you more intelligent!), but for some reason in hifi/audio, some of these things go completely unchecked.

And still your opinion is based on nothing.
What do you think engineers do? They improve their current designs. Cars, tv`s, pc`s etc etc. Everytime a little better.
Why don`t you think somebody can make a good design better?

Have you ever looked inside the Rs20i? The resistors on a few places are running to hot! great design!. It works yes, but it can be better.
Why does Theta use a Oppo based mainboard for their players, yes to mod it and turn it better. The RS20i an upgraded AP20.. so the rs20i cant be upgraded?
Or you think the Datasat people are the smartest people in the world and make a 100% perfect design?

Don`t forget the rs20i is designed somewhere 2010... 7 years ago.. that`s a long time for the Semi-conductor industry.

Case closed.
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post #5059 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
I know it sounds stupid bij placing the Rs20i below the Av8802 whats on their website. But let me explain it. The best is to go yourself to Cinemike and ask for a demontration.
Does somebody listen to music on this Rs20i? Did anyone compare it`s RS20i to the Theta CB4? Or maybe the theta DAC generation 8? Everybody knows the Theta is better with music.
The RS20i is good is placing object and it gives a lot of detail, but lacks with music scenes. The movie fury (1h 14m), the bombs are dropping on the village and it sounds awesome, after that the music is comming in. But the music sounds without en lacks of present, no surround sound feeling for me.
After the tuning i still kept the great peformance but now got the best of the best... of 2 worlds.

After tuning:
- Very big surround bubble, before it was hardly there.
- Deeper soundstage
- More realistic sound, a violin sound like a violin and not like a shoebox with a snare.
- Details are even better present.

Why i wanted the RS20I, soundwise i preffered the Theta but lacked on functions and looks. The AV8802 Cinemike was an option but lacks on a good correction. So the Rs20i was the option. I bought it but almost sold it because i missed things in the Datasat, that`s the point where i started to talk with Cinemike. It was my last hope, otherwise i would have bought the Theta.

I don`t want to sell anything but just share my experiences, it`s all about prefer with audio. I was sceptic to and lucky i am very satisfied with the results.
Thank you for your explanation and I am happy to hear, that the modification helped you to love your RS20i even more. I do not share your opinion, that the RS20i is not good with music regarding movie tracks. I will give you an example, this is the Ponyo movie from Hayao Miyazaki. I wanted to test it, because it has a relatively minimalistic yet very beautiful soundtrack - only my opinion. I started to test listen but I couldn't stop watching. The music was beautifully - I always call it - modeled out of the air, that I watched the whole movie until the end. The RS20i does three things for me, no other SSP, I am aware of, does:

1. Best dynamics - audio suddenly happens with high dynamics and gives me goosebumps
2. No distortion and thus clear sound - others tend to distort especially the second part of an impulse
3. Modeling the sound objects into the air - that I feel, I can touch them. No other words to describe this, and is most likely related to the first two points

I have no idea, how you could improve anything of the above described points, because you find these characteristics not in capacitors, resistors, op-amps or the power supply. All of the items mentioned can influence the above mentioned characteristics but not in a very significant way.

The most important part is that you are happy and you have spent your money well - in your sense. For me, this would be no option.

But if you are looking for a blind test, I have an RS20i and I live in the area around Cologne in Germany. But it is a lot of effort to do this and the environment e.g. an 8 or 9 channel XLR switch should be available, in my understanding.
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post #5060 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 02:56 AM
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And still your opinion is based on nothing.
What do you think engineers do? They improve their current designs. Cars, tv`s, pc`s etc etc. Everytime a little better.
Why don`t you think somebody can make a good design better?

Have you ever looked inside the Rs20i? The resistors on a few places are running to hot! great design!. It works yes, but it can be better.
Why does Theta use a Oppo based mainboard for their players, yes to mod it and turn it better. The RS20i an upgraded AP20.. so the rs20i cant be upgraded?
Or you think the Datasat people are the smartest people in the world and make a 100% perfect design?

Don`t forget the rs20i is designed somewhere 2010... 7 years ago.. that`s a long time for the Semi-conductor industry.

I'm not wishing to get into a slanging match on this, but in your argument you highlight the fundamental problem with the entire concept of these 'upgrades'. Cinemike is not changing the 'design' at all. As I said, if he was ripping out the power supplies and replacing with his those of his own 'design', or ripping out the analogue section and replacing with his own 'design', then one could possibly claim a change in the sound, but to simply swap out some on-board components makes no fundamental, and certainly no audible, difference - those that are already in place operate within the parameters of the intended design, if they didn't the unit would fail to operate, its really as simple as that.

Anyway, as you say:

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Case closed.
. . . as there was never really any case to start with.
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post #5061 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 04:38 AM
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According to the Cinemike website the Datasat RS20 upgrade apparently puts it over their 7702MK2 but under their 8802A.


After reading this and other (especially their Emotiva amplifier) upgrades I'm convinced that this is a guy preying on unsuspecting "audiophiles".

Are AVS members actually falling for this?
Right there is your proof by example. The 8802A has a lot more owners which could be potential "customers" so it makes sense from a business stand point to say a 28K product is below it in performance after upgrades. I don't see RS20i owners getting in line to send their units to him. Whereas I am sure some 8802A owners will. This discussion has been debated too many times in too many threads...
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post #5062 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 04:53 AM
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Why did Joerod modified his oppo Player? Ask him. In the reviews it`s the best 4k player in the world

I am not here to sell stuff because i simply don`t earn a penny on it. I just want to open eyes for people that are interested.
I wouldn't use that or me as a prime example. The power supply came with a Region Free kit a company wanted me to Review for them. And this was for the 103 which works fine with the 203. This is the same type of debate over power chords. Yes, I use older Monster 300 ones but I can't argue the simplicity of changing out components with them already in place. Not to mention they are very long. So does the power supply thing work? Who knows.... but I will say it was better built them the stock one that came with it so I figured what the hell. May as well put it on the 203 as well. Maybe it will result in a 0.09% better image with less interference. Isn't that worth the possibility alone?


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post #5063 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
According to the Cinemike website the Datasat RS20 upgrade apparently puts it over their 7702MK2 but under their 8802A.

QUOTE CINEMIKE: It is arranged between Cinemike 7702MK2 Level 2 and 8802A Level 2
So let me try and get this straight: An un-modded RS20i sounds better than a un-modded 8802A (we certainly can assume at least that!), but after Cinemike modding the RS20i suddenly is the lesser sounding one !!!!? If for the sake of the argument we assume that this is actually true*), to me it would suggest that Cinemike mod is more likely detoriating the original RS20i sound .... And since they do appear not to have A-B tested an un-modded unit against a modded unit, they might as well not be aware of it..

But one thing I do know: If I would have spent that amount of money to 'improve' the sound of my ultra high-end processor, I would not allow myself to believe that the sound did NOT improve (which because of our bad 'sonic memory' will not be a very difficult job to do...)

*) as evaluated by an experienced listener in an acoustically optimized room, using familiar soundtracks, aimed at a most reliable subjective evaluation of well-defined sound characteristics like clarity, focus, envelopment, dynamic range and frequency response.
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post #5064 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
So let me try and get this straight: An un-modded RS20i sounds better than a un-modded 8802A (we certainly can assume at least that!), but after Cinemike modding the RS20i suddenly is the lesser sounding one !!!!? If for the sake of the argument we assume that this is actually true*), to me it would suggest that Cinemike mod is more likely detoriating the original RS20i sound .... And since they do appear not to have A-B tested an un-modded unit against a modded unit, they might as well not be aware of it..

Their 8802 modded against the Rs20i modded. We tested them without dirac or corrections only with SPL adjusted. To tell the Av8802 cinemike is better than a Rs20I cinemike it`s not fair because the Rs20i power is also the dirac. We only did a without correction comparison.
That`s why i own one above the 8802 becaue of the dirac. I owned a 8801/8802 myself both are not on the same level as the rs20i


But one thing I do know: If I would have spent that amount of money to 'improve' the sound of my ultra high-end processor, I would not allow myself to believe that the sound did NOT improve (which because of our bad 'sonic memory' will not be a very difficult job to do...)

I made a deal, if they couldn`t improve things i don`t needed to pay.

*) as evaluated by an experienced listener in an acoustically optimized room, using familiar soundtracks, aimed at a most reliable subjective evaluation of well-defined sound characteristics like clarity, focus, envelopment, dynamic range and frequency response.
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post #5065 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 09:54 AM
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I made a deal, if they couldn`t improve things i don`t needed to pay
Now if such no cure-no-pay clausule would be put on paper with the addition "to be subjectively judged solely by the customer" and combined with a 30-day warranty/testing period.... maybe some AVS 'myth busters' might take up the challenge, organize a well-designed A-B double blind listening test, and report back. Any volunteers? Please show hands!

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post #5066 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
Their 8802 modded against the Rs20i modded. We tested them without dirac or corrections only with SPL adjusted. To tell the Av8802 cinemike is better than a Rs20I cinemike it`s not fair because the Rs20i power is also the dirac. We only did a without correction comparison.
That`s why i own one above the 8802 becaue of the dirac. I owned a 8801/8802 myself both are not on the same level as the rs20i
You know, you can buy a MiniDSP 88A with Dirac (two, if you want to correct > 8 channels) and you could compare both units with similar room correction , or just add Dirac correction via the MiniDsp to the Marantz and save a fair amount of euros.


Plenty of guys on the AVS 88A thread use MiniDSPs with Marantz, inserted between the pre-pro and amps. That's certainly cheaper than adding mods in a state (no room correction) that most users are unlikely to employ, especially since a key advantage to owning the Datasat is to have output for up to 16 channels (whether being utilized for n-way speakers or for speaker arrays with the 3D audio codecs). Even if you're a music fan, there's an argument for running a below Schroeder room correction for at least the subs, if not the mains.
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post #5067 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 10:23 AM
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Ultimately there is very little that a 3rd party can get access to in an RS20i. The RS20i is 80 plus percent digital. The software running on those parts is simply not visible to anyone outside of the Datasat crew. The power supply and remaining A/D & D/A sections have been improved (very small steps) multiple times over the years since the product was introduced. As result the RS20i as delivered today is pretty much at the limits of technology. It is unthinkable that someone without knowledge of that history and details could affect any worthwhile improvements.
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post #5068 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 10:23 AM
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Dear goodness, you’d think in the $20,000+ forum, the modding-nonsense would be distant in the rear view mirror...
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post #5069 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
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Funny you say that - when considering Cold Air Intakes I nearly got 'sucked in' by that product. Due diligence prevailed however!
At least with the CAI you could measure the intake temperatures and see if there was a benefit or not. I've heavily modded my 911 turbo and it goes around the track way faster than stock. But it's no secret that the stock car has limitations based on its intended use as a multipurpose car...I doubt this would apply to the RS20. When you change one thing (like springs and sways) the next bottleneck shows up - such as the front downforce issue. My point is that you can improve many things by modding but there are other consequences that may also have an effect on the performance of the product. Years ago I changed the inductors in a speaker crossover to air-core ones (same rating) and bypassed the resistors with Vishay ones. There was an audible change in terms of stronger bass but the stronger bass meant less clarity overall and it was definitely a trade-off.

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post #5070 of 6044 Old 08-30-2017, 11:41 AM
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Dear goodness, you’d think in the $20,000+ forum, the modding-nonsense would be distant in the rear view mirror...

Just my own $0.02 - I think the $20K+ forums, with less traffic and a higher "player" to hobbyist ratio than on, say, the Marantz, Audyssey, or Atmos threads, is more likely to draw things like product mods and more subjective opinions about sound quality in general than on more mainstream threads. By player, I mean someone that has reasons to post here that aren't just sharing the hobby, but to build a business, draw an audience for a product they sell, market themselves, etc. Of course, the upside is that you have more personal relationships between, say, an integrator/dealer and a client because they can communicate here if they want to (sometimes) the benefit of others.




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