Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 176 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5251 of 6152 Old 10-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I was a 2-channel guy long before "surround" was ever heard of. And even when I built this theater, I chose to put the left and right speaker in the room (and hide everything else), to allow me to listen to 2-channel and get the best imaging.

Over the last 5 to 10 years, I have experimented with all kinds of surround modes to "enhance" 2 channel listening, most recently Dolby DSU and DTS:Neural-X (and a previous implementation of AuroMatic on another less excellent processor), and while many of them have been "fun", none have worked for long term music listening. The material that was sent to the heights and surrounds was not appropriate and/or trims set to high and/or ??????

I have never been a fan of Auro, but I have finally found a mode that works and that is AuroMatic BUT with some important modifications to the settings.

I noticed that when I listened to the standard AuroMatic the bass seemed far too excessive, bloated, much less well defined. And when I compared it to just 2 channel, it was clear that was the case. I assumed that AuroMatic was sending what it captured from the left and right channels to every other channel. So, I told the system that every channel but the left and right were full range and used the Dirac filter description for each channel to act as a high pass filter. Problem solved. I have never heard music of any kind sound this "real" or "live" or whatever descriptor you would like to use. I have had to adjust the Auro "strength" setting to get it to sound less "fake".

I had a friend over the other day to listen. He is a 2 channel "bigot" and has one of the very best (and most costly) 2 channel systems I have ever heard. Even he was amazed at how much better it sounded than just 2-channel. He had heard some of my other attempts and was not impressed.

If you choose to give this a go, and you decide to switch back and forth between no upmixing and Auro, you will have to adjust the volume as the AuroMatic version is about 3+dB hot.

I have never enjoyed listening to music this much. While some kinds of music and/or venues in which it is recorded sound better than others, ALL of it is far superior to plain ol' 2-channel and none of it sounds "manufactured" or "synthetic".

I love what the Datasat provides in terms of great hardware, and great functionality and its implementation of Dirac and Auro. Most excellent.
I really enjoyed reading what you wrote and can only agree to your conclusion. But these changes in the sound stage or sound itself, I am not experiencing at all. I remember that you wrote some time ago, that you found the surrounds 'too hot' with a specific setting. I don't experience this at all.
I can change the output presets and surround sound processing settings and experience no such changes. I wonder what might cause this and what is different in your setup compared to mine, causing these heavy changes?

BTW regarding Auro, I also learned that you have to use a Auro 13.1 output preset, to get the full Auro experience, which was confirmed by Datasat UK afterwards, when I asked them. When I watched Red tails, I was a bit surprised, that I didn't get output on all channels, as I expected. I changed then my output preset from 11.1 to 13.1 - even I don't have this much speakers connected - and it worked. I was surprised by this behavior and expected this different. Just FYI and may be try it out and tell us your results.
I didn't check but I think this is not documented.
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post #5252 of 6152 Old 10-07-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
I really enjoyed reading what you wrote and can only agree to your conclusion. But these changes in the sound stage or sound itself, I am not experiencing at all. I remember that you wrote some time ago, that you found the surrounds 'too hot' with a specific setting. I don't experience this at all.
I can change the output presets and surround sound processing settings and experience no such changes. I wonder what might cause this and what is different in your setup compared to mine, causing these heavy changes?

BTW regarding Auro, I also learned that you have to use a Auro 13.1 output preset, to get the full Auro experience, which was confirmed by Datasat UK afterwards, when I asked them. When I watched Red tails, I was a bit surprised, that I didn't get output on all channels, as I expected. I changed then my output preset from 11.1 to 13.1 - even I don't have this much speakers connected - and it worked. I was surprised by this behavior and expected this different. Just FYI and may be try it out and tell us your results.
I didn't check but I think this is not documented.
I found the surrounds HOT with DSU and DTS:Neural-X but not with AuroMatic. With AuroMatic, I only found the bass heavy without my changes. I have no clue what setting I have that could be incorrect, if any.

Interesting about 13.1 vs 11.1. So with 13.1, the rear surrounds become active? I will give tha a try next time I listen to music.
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post #5253 of 6152 Old 10-07-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I found the surrounds HOT with DSU and DTS:Neural-X but not with AuroMatic. With AuroMatic, I only found the bass heavy without my changes. I have no clue what setting I have that could be incorrect, if any.

Interesting about 13.1 vs 11.1. So with 13.1, the rear surrounds become active? I will give tha a try next time I listen to music.
Yes, please give it a try. I coludn't believe it first but then the channels became active. A bit funny, but however, if it works.
About the settings, the RS20i has so many, could be anywhere. However, DSU and DTS:X versus Auro, would point IMO to a difference in the output presets. But I really can't say anything.
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post #5254 of 6152 Old 10-07-2017, 06:49 PM
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I actually loved Auro-Matic for football when I had my first RS20i. I have tweaked Dolby Surround to its fullest and can’t try Neural since the games are broadcast in Dolby Digital. I just remember the crowd and action were more prominent in the surrounds and height with Top speakers with Auro. Announcer or stadium announcer as well. I am debating if I should get another Auro card (Maybe they’re way less these days) or just try and pretend it never existed. I will be tweaking more again tomorrow...

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post #5255 of 6152 Old 10-07-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
I actually loved Auro-Matic for football when I had my first RS20i. I have tweaked Dolby Surround to its fullest and can’t try Neural since the games are broadcast in Dolby Digital. I just remember the crowd and action were more prominent in the surrounds and height with Top speakers with Auro. Announcer or stadium announcer as well. I am debating if I should get another Auro card (Maybe they’re way less these days) or just try and pretend it never existed. I will be tweaking more again tomorrow...
Auro on the Datasat has the "Strength" function which really is nice feature and can be used on individual albums that may be recorded differently. I did try Auro on one football game but I will need to try again to see if I can get it to be a bit more lively.
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post #5256 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Yes, please give it a try. I coludn't believe it first but then the channels became active. A bit funny, but however, if it works.
About the settings, the RS20i has so many, could be anywhere. However, DSU and DTS:X versus Auro, would point IMO to a difference in the output presets. But I really can't say anything.
Per your recommendatoin, I changed the Auro configuration to 13.1 from 11.1 and the rears became active!!!! No clue why but it worked. Thanks
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post #5257 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Per your recommendatoin, I changed the Auro configuration to 13.1 from 11.1 and the rears became active!!!! No clue why but it worked. Thanks
You are very welcome and you also helped me before

As I wrote, Datasat told me so and he said 'this is clear', that the speaker setup should be set to 13.1 to get all channels working. I thought this is one-to-one. If I set my speakers to 11.1 I get 11.1. But this seems not to be the case. May be the reason is in the Datasat implementation or Auro itself, who knows...

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post #5258 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
As I wrote, Datasat told me so and he said 'this is clear', that the speaker setup should be set to 13.1 to get all channels working. I thought this is one-to-one. If I set my speakers to 11.1 I get 11.1. But this seems not to be the case. May be the reason is in the Datasat implementation or Auro itself, who knows...
These selectable speaker set-ups are probably just following the typical Auro3D definitions:
  • 9.1 is 5.1+4heights
  • 10.1 is 5.1+4heights+TopSpeaker
  • 11.1 is 5.1+5heights+TopSpeaker
  • 13.1 is 11.1 + Surround Backs
Edit: and 11.1 (7+4) is 7.1+4heights

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post #5259 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
These selectable speaker set-ups are probably just following the typical Auro3D definitions:
  • 9.1 is 5.1+4heights
  • 10.1 is 5.1+4heights+TopSpeaker
  • 11.1 is 5.1+5heights+TopSpeaker
  • 13.1 is 11.1 + Surround Backs
... correct, and don't forget the _other_ 11.1 setting on the RS20i: "Auro11.1 (7+4)", which is 7.1 + 4 heights
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post #5260 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 12:12 PM
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... correct, and don't forget the _other_ 11.1 setting on the RS20i: "Auro11.1 (7+4)", which is 7.1 + 4 heights
Not in my system. I used that setting and no rear channels.
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post #5261 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Not in my system. I used that setting and no rear channels.
See attached

Are you playing Auro content or upmixing other content?
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post #5262 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by deyre View Post
See attached

Are you playing Auro content or upmixing other content?
Upmixing.
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post #5263 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
These selectable speaker set-ups are probably just following the typical Auro3D definitions:
  • 9.1 is 5.1+4heights
  • 10.1 is 5.1+4heights+TopSpeaker
  • 11.1 is 5.1+5heights+TopSpeaker
  • 13.1 is 11.1 + Surround Backs
I strongly assume that you are right. Thanks, this explains it for me.
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post #5264 of 6152 Old 10-10-2017, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deyre View Post
... correct, and don't forget the _other_ 11.1 setting on the RS20i: "Auro11.1 (7+4)", which is 7.1 + 4 heights
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Not in my system. I used that setting and no rear channels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deyre View Post
See attached

Are you playing Auro content or upmixing other content?
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Upmixing.
Your Surround Backs should be active with AuroMatic up mixing on a 11.1(7+4) configuration. That is at least how the up mixing codec works. There must be some setting in your processor that is not right. Or is this a general phenomenon with the RS20i?

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post #5265 of 6152 Old 10-11-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Your Surround Backs should be active with AuroMatic up mixing on a 11.1(7+4) configuration. That is at least how the up mixing codec works. There must be some setting in your processor that is not right. Or is this a general phenomenon with the RS20i?
Didn't you write before, that the rear speakers are only active in 13.1?
And this is how Datasat sees it. No rear speakers in 11.1 only with 13.1. So, you were right when you answered the question before #5258 .

And BTW, I was wrong about documentation. As you can see from the picture below, the issue about the back surrounds is well documented: RTFM... stupid me...
Attached Thumbnails
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post #5266 of 6152 Old 10-11-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Didn't you write before, that the rear speakers are only active in 13.1?
And this is how Datasat sees it. No rear speakers in 11.1 only with 13.1. So, you were right when you answered the question before #5258
I was incomplete, and edited that post.

Quote:
And BTW, I was wrong about documentation. As you can see from the picture below, the issue about the back surrounds is well documented: RTFM... stupid me...
I do not own a RS20i, but on Trinnov's Altitude "11.1(7+4)" is one of the default Auro3D configurations (the others being 9.1, 10.1, 11.1 and 13.1) and just as 13.1 it has active Surround Backs.

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post #5267 of 6152 Old 10-11-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I was incomplete, and edited that post.



I do not own a RS20i, but on Trinnov's Altitude "11.1(7+4)" is one of the default Auro3D configurations (the others being 9.1, 10.1, 11.1 and 13.1) and just as 13.1 it has active Surround Backs.
Yep, alright but for the Datasat this seems to be more static due to the DSP characteristics, I assume. However, I checked the manual this time and that's the reason, why the rear surrounds don't work in all other configurations except in 13.1 for the RS20i.
Thank you for helping to solve this mystery. Everything clear now. In case of Datasat - and this is also what the Datasat guy told me - if you want rear surrounds, you must use the 13.1 output preset.
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post #5268 of 6152 Old 10-11-2017, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Yep, alright but for the Datasat this seems to be more static due to the DSP characteristics, I assume. However, I checked the manual this time and that's the reason, why the rear surrounds don't work in all other configurations except in 13.1 for the RS20i.
Thank you for helping to solve this mystery. Everything clear now. In case of Datasat - and this is also what the Datasat guy told me - if you want rear surrounds, you must use the 13.1 output preset.
Yes, it probably has to do with how the Auro3D codec currently works on DSP chips. AuroTechnologies seems to be working on a solution that eventually may enable 11.1(7+4) also on the RS20i (and LS10). This is the translation of a mail (in Dutch) that was received by one of the posters on the Auro3D forum:

Quote:
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Translated:

Dear Sir,

We are very well aware of the importance of Surround Back channels for Auro users with a 7.1/11.1 system. We are quite busy looking at ways how we can roll-out a solution for this problem.

Best regards,

The Auro Support Team

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post #5269 of 6152 Old 10-11-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Yes, it probably has to do with how the Auro3D codec currently works on DSP chips. AuroTechnologies seems to be working on a solution that eventually may enable 11.1(7+4) also on the RS20i (and LS10). This is the translation of a mail (in Dutch) that was received by one of the posters on the Auro3D forum:
Thank you for sharing this information. This is really interesting. However, I don't see this as a big problem. If you know, that the back surrounds are only working with the 13.1 output preset, than I set the RS20i this way, even I have less speakers. I mean it is not exactly according to the Auro spec but my speaker setup is also not according the Auro spec. But I can still enjoy native Auro tracks and Auromatic. In fact after these findings, I have to listen to my Auro disks again. For the native Auro tracks, I was a bit disappointed with the sound, because Auro only worked in the action scenes. This may be the same experience I had with Atmos tracks, when I had a .2 setup. Meanwhile, with a .4 setup, I am really enjoying Atmos and this may be the same with Auro tracks, because of the - somehow - wrong output preset, I used.
You never stop learning, isn't it. And this is also the fun with HT and especially the RS20i. It has so many possibilities.
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post #5270 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 01:40 AM
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I just watched a youtube video and I am shocked. There is a dealer in Germany and his videos are in German but this is now the second video, he switches off the 5.1 speakers and is running only with heights. In this video, he is demonstrating, that there is no activity on the heights layer esp. in F&F 8. And I was so convinced, that this is an excellent sound track but it seems, it is an excellent surround track and not a real 3D sound track. He is also comparing the three upmixers and comes to the conclusion that Auromatic is best, DTS Neural:X second and DSU last.
I guess, I have to test listen much more...
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post #5271 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
I just watched a youtube video and I am shocked. There is a dealer in Germany and his videos are in German but this is now the second video, he switches off the 5.1 speakers and is running only with heights. In this video, he is demonstrating, that there is no activity on the heights layer esp. in F&F 8. And I was so convinced, that this is an excellent sound track but it seems, it is an excellent surround track and not a real 3D sound track.
I've not got that disk yet, but if he is getting nothing out of the height layer on 'any' movies, then I would suggest he has set-up issues.

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He is also comparing the three upmixers and comes to the conclusion that Auromatic is best, DTS Neural:X second and DSU last.
I guess, I have to test listen much more...
That's a matter of personal preference, but for movies DTS:X and DSU are substantially more resolved than Auromatic which significantly reduces front sound stage clarity.
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post #5272 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 05:19 AM
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I've not got that disk yet, but if he is getting nothing out of the height layer on 'any' movies, then I would suggest he has set-up issues.
No need to turn off the other speakers. Just look at the front panel of the RS20i. And I agree with you. Sounds like "operator error"

Quote:
That's a matter of personal preference, but for movies DTS:X and DSU are substantially more resolved than Auromatic which significantly reduces front sound stage clarity.
I woulds agree that for movies, AuroMatic is really underwhelming. The only thing it does is replicate the front speakers, lower the trim, add delay and add reverb (turn off the front speakers to hear this). BUT, that, in my opinion, is why it seems to work so well (and much better than DTS:Neural-X or DSU) for up-mixing 2 channel music (IMO). The other two sound quite "fake" no matter what you try to fix in all of the other speakers. And if you think about it, when listening to music in an indoor venue, what AuroMatic does represents more closely what you would hear - reverb, delay and lower amplitude. And, in the RS20i, you can easily adjust how much it puts into all of the speakers with the "strength" function.

And as I said in a previous post, the only way to get AuroMatic to sound correct in up-mixing 2 channel is to make every speaker other than the Left and Right "full". Otherwise AuroMatic adds the bass to every channel and takes away any sense of realism. It took me a while to figure out what was happening but once I did that, my enjoyment of music jumped higher than it has ever been. I know some don't use their theaters for music listening but if you try this out, you may decide you like it. Even a die-hard 2 channel guy (friend of mine) who really dislikes what DTS and Dolby did to 2 channel, likes what AuroMatic can do based upon what he heard in my room.
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post #5273 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 05:39 AM
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I've not got that disk yet, but if he is getting nothing out of the height layer on 'any' movies, then I would suggest he has set-up issues.
No, no, his setup was working and this guy is one of the largest dealers in Germany and he knows what he is doing. He made the same test with Transformers Age of Extinction some time ago and I agree to audioguy, somehow this looks different looking at the VU meters on the RS20i. That's why I wrote, I need more test listening, because he picked a specific scene, where he demonstrated this. This is on the frozen lake, when Xander - or some similar name - drives his car onto the icy surface of the lake and bumps into the truck carrying rockets which then shoots rockets onto his own guys. I will double check this and other parts of the movie. I was quite impressed by this soundtrack and I was very surprised to see this video.

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That's a matter of personal preference, but for movies DTS:X and DSU are substantially more resolved than Auromatic which significantly reduces front sound stage clarity.
Sure, that was only his personal opinion, but he showed it in the video and you could also listen to it in the video here


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post #5274 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Sure, that was only his personal opinion, but he showed it in the video and you could also listen to it in the video here
Given I don't speak or understand German, can you give us the short version of what he is saying?
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post #5275 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 06:12 AM
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Is he actually using an RS20i in that video, looks like he using something else by the GUI that pops up to select audio upmixer?
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post #5276 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 07:01 AM
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Sorry guys, sure I can give a synopsis of what's in the video and no, he is not using Datasat or other high end equipment, he is using Denon as far as I can say from the color of the menu and the menu items. Looks a bit like my old AVP.
He is dealing with main stream equipment up to Marantz 8802 and this kind of stuff.

What he is doing first in this video is to switch off the LCR and surround speakers and he is listening to the DTS:X soundtrack of F&F 8 in the scene shown in the video - icy lake chase. Then he shows something that we know well - at least RS20i and LS10 owners: He cannot switch to another post-processing on this track than DTS:X - this video is from October 3, 2017, not old. What do I learn here: Also Denon cannot apply any post-processing to specific tracks. Therefore, he is switching his Oppo player to PCM output instead of bitstream and then compares DSU, DTS Neural:X and Auromatic with only the heights speakers enabled. Sometimes you hear some swishing sounds which is from the subwoofer, which is still active.
Then he applies the upmixers with a scene from 'Need for speed' mainly focusing on how much of the original sound is outputted from the height speakers.
As an extra he also compares the upmixers showing a scene from 'A million ways to die in the west'.
A logo is shown in the video, what kind of upmixing process he is currently using, then you just need to listen.

My personal opinion: I am really not sure if this is a valid comparison, because he doesn't tell in the video how the heights only signal is derived. If he would change the speaker config in the AVR to heights only, if this possible, I don't know, this would be the wrong way IMO. If he switched off the power amps, if this is possible, I don't know, that would be a correct way or just detach the speaker cables. If you change the speaker layout, I am quite sure that also the processing will be changed in the AVR. Therefore the only way to listen correctly to what is coming out of the heights speakers is to leave everything in the AVR as if this would be a full x.x.x system.

Second and Audioguy mentioned this already, the height channels are quite active looking at the VU meters on the RS20i, esp. regarding F&F 8. That's why I wrote, I have to test it again, to confirm this. Because I have three amps, I can switch off some of them and listen to the heights only and see if he is right in his video or not.

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post #5277 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 07:07 AM
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Is he actually using an RS20i in that video, looks like he using something else by the GUI that pops up to select audio upmixer?
He’s using the Marantz.

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post #5278 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 07:08 AM
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He’s using the Marantz.
Thank you for the correction.
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post #5279 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 07:20 AM
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Basically he says in the video that he expected from the DTS:X track that there would be sound from the heights, when the car is jumping off the cliff and the rockets are launched. But there is nothing.
He made a similar video, some time ago, about Transformers Age of extinction also showing that in the sequence in the beginning - there are space ships flying over dinosaurs and a waterfall - there is no sound from the heights. In his conclusion he says that the cinema sound is - according his impression - different (better) than the sound on Blu-Ray and that the sound engineers do a bad job - I am citing, this is not my opinion.
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post #5280 of 6152 Old 10-12-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Sorry guys, sure I can give a synopsis of what's in the video and no, he is not using Datasat or other high end equipment, he is using Denon as far as I can say from the color of the menu and the menu items. Looks a bit like my old AVP.
He is dealing with main stream equipment up to Marantz 8802 and this kind of stuff.

What he is doing first in this video is to switch off the LCR and surround speakers and he is listening to the DTS:X soundtrack of F&F 8 in the scene shown in the video - icy lake chase. Then he shows something that we know well - at least RS20i and LS10 owners: He cannot switch to another post-processing on this track than DTS:X - this video is from October 3, 2017, not old. What do I learn here: Also Denon cannot apply any post-processing to specific tracks. Therefore, he is switching his Oppo player to PCM output instead of bitstream and then compares DSU, DTS Neural:X and Auromatic with only the heights speakers enabled. Sometimes you hear some swishing sounds which is from the subwoofer, which is still active.
Then he applies the upmixers with a scene from 'Need for speed' mainly focusing on how much of the original sound is outputted from the height speakers.
As an extra he also compares the upmixers showing a scene from 'A million ways to die in the west'.
A logo is shown in the video, what kind of upmixing process he is currently using, then you just need to listen.

My personal opinion: I am really not sure if this is a valid comparison, because he doesn't tell in the video how the heights only signal is derived. If he would change the speaker config in the AVR to heights only, if this possible, I don't know, this would be the wrong way IMO. If he switched off the power amps, if this is possible, I don't know, that would be a correct way or just detach the speaker cables. If you change the speaker layout, I am quite sure that also the processing will be changed in the AVR. Therefore the only way to listen correctly to what is coming out of the heights speakers is to leave everything in the AVR as if this would be a full x.x.x system.

Second and Audioguy mentioned this already, the height channels are quite active looking at the VU meters on the RS20i, esp. regarding F&F 8. That's why I wrote, I have to test it again, to confirm this. Because I have three amps, I can switch off some of them and listen to the heights only and see if he is right in his video or not.
Don’t need to turn amps off. Just mute the bed channels in the levels page.
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