Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 182 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5431 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
It seems 'only' 4:2:0 is supported. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Thank you.
At 10-bit 2160p60 you are 100% correct.
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post #5432 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 02:54 PM
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At 10-bit 2160p60 you are 100% correct.
Yes, thank you, and I also found a 12-bit mode with 4:2:2. That means and again, please correct me here, because I am still learning 4K, that the UHD-Disk is not the limiting factor. It seems to be only the bandwidth and the HDMI chips but I am not sure about this.
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post #5433 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 03:01 PM
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I’m getting a bit confused here about what you guys are talking about. Are you referring the blu-ray spec, the capabilities of 18Gbps HDMI chips, or precisely what bandwidth the HDMI ports on the new Datasat cards have?

The UHD blu-ray spec is for 4:2:0 @ 10bit. That purely relates to what is encoded on the disc.

Most blu-ray players will upsample to 4:4:4 @ 10bit for 24p or 4:2:2 @ 12bit for 24p and 60p, and an 18Gbps HDMI chip will happily (generally) pass those. 2160p/60 4:2:2 12bit is just under the 18Gbps limitation.

So can we clarify exactly what is included on the LS10 board, and more importantly (for me) what is included on the RS20i board? I was under the impression, at least in the case of the latter, all inputs and outputs were all full 18Gbps bandwidth capable?
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post #5434 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Yes, thank you, and I also found a 12-bit mode with 4:2:2. That means and again, please correct me here, because I am still learning 4K, that the UHD-Disk is not the limiting factor. It seems to be only the bandwidth and the HDMI chips but I am not sure about this.
All the UHD/HDR10 discs are encoded at 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:0. The Blu-ray player will upsample to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (for 24 FPS) for transmission over HDMI. Either way the display/projector is going to upsample to 4:4:4 and ultimately RGB (inherently/always 4:4:4).

This is a good read: http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...color-space-2/
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post #5435 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
All the UHD/HDR10 discs are encoded at 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:0. The Blu-ray player will upsample to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (for 24 FPS) for transmission over HDMI. Either way the display/projector is going to upsample to 4:4:4 and ultimately RGB (inherently/always 4:4:4).

This is a good read: http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...color-space-2/
Thank you Marc. This clarifies it for me.
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post #5436 of 6155 Old 12-24-2017, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I’m getting a bit confused here about what you guys are talking about. Are you referring the blu-ray spec, the capabilities of 18Gbps HDMI chips, or precisely what bandwidth the HDMI ports on the new Datasat cards have?

The UHD blu-ray spec is for 4:2:0 @ 10bit. That purely relates to what is encoded on the disc.

Most blu-ray players will upsample to 4:4:4 @ 10bit for 24p or 4:2:2 @ 12bit for 24p and 60p, and an 18Gbps HDMI chip will happily (generally) pass those. 2160p/60 4:2:2 12bit is just under the 18Gbps limitation.

So can we clarify exactly what is included on the LS10 board, and more importantly (for me) what is included on the RS20i board? I was under the impression, at least in the case of the latter, all inputs and outputs were all full 18Gbps bandwidth capable?
Yep, it was a mix. What is on the disk, what will be passed through the Datasat HDMI boards and what will be the output. I think, thanks to you guys, I have a clear picture now.
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post #5437 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I’m getting a bit confused here about what you guys are talking about. Are you referring the blu-ray spec, the capabilities of 18Gbps HDMI chips, or precisely what bandwidth the HDMI ports on the new Datasat cards have?

The UHD blu-ray spec is for 4:2:0 @ 10bit. That purely relates to what is encoded on the disc.

Most blu-ray players will upsample to 4:4:4 @ 10bit for 24p or 4:2:2 @ 12bit for 24p and 60p, and an 18Gbps HDMI chip will happily (generally) pass those. 2160p/60 4:2:2 12bit is just under the 18Gbps limitation.

So can we clarify exactly what is included on the LS10 board, and more importantly (for me) what is included on the RS20i board? I was under the impression, at least in the case of the latter, all inputs and outputs were all full 18Gbps bandwidth capable?
This is crazy surely there is a definite spec for the new Datasat HDMI board and if each input is not 18G bandwidth it is even crazier.
I have just ordered mine assuming it is 18Gig per channel, if it is not I need to cancel it.
Can somebody please confirm and point me to a spec sheet.
Thanks.
Des
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post #5438 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by multimedes View Post
This is crazy surely there is a definite spec for the new Datasat HDMI board and if each input is not 18G bandwidth it is even crazier.
I have just ordered mine assuming it is 18Gig per channel, if it is not I need to cancel it.
Can somebody please confirm and point me to a spec sheet.
Thanks.
Des
I will email my Datasat contact and ask him. Stay tuned.
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post #5439 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 11:39 AM
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I will email my Datasat contact and ask him. Stay tuned.
Great thank you.
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post #5440 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by multimedes View Post
This is crazy surely there is a definite spec for the new Datasat HDMI board and if each input is not 18G bandwidth it is even crazier.
I have just ordered mine assuming it is 18Gig per channel, if it is not I need to cancel it.
Can somebody please confirm and point me to a spec sheet.
Thanks.
Des
The board supports 18Gbps on all inputs.

By default, the board firmware does apply EDID limitations to some input ports, which serve to limit the bitrate. The LS10 and RS20, if using latest software, configure all inputs without that limitation by default. This is configurable through the setup->decoder->HDMI->ConfigEDID menu. The lower-rate selection may provide better interoperability with older source devices which do not require the higher rates.

This applies to the current released version of MDS firmware (rev 15).

-de
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post #5441 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by deyre View Post
The board supports 18Gbps on all inputs.

By default, the board firmware does apply EDID limitations to some input ports, which serve to limit the bitrate. The LS10 and RS20, if using latest software, configure all inputs without that limitation by default. This is configurable through the setup->decoder->HDMI->ConfigEDID menu. The lower-rate selection may provide better interoperability with older source devices which do not require the higher rates.

This applies to the current released version of MDS firmware (rev 15).

-de
Thank you for the info that’s great, understand the config issues you have highlighted.
Des
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post #5442 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by deyre View Post
The board supports 18Gbps on all inputs.



By default, the board firmware does apply EDID limitations to some input ports, which serve to limit the bitrate. The LS10 and RS20, if using latest software, configure all inputs without that limitation by default. This is configurable through the setup->decoder->HDMI->ConfigEDID menu. The lower-rate selection may provide better interoperability with older source devices which do not require the higher rates.



This applies to the current released version of MDS firmware (rev 15).



-de


^^^^^ What he said!

Last edited by audioguy; 12-26-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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post #5443 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 06:15 PM
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The model number is LS10 HSR-72Q. I am not sure where you want me to look up the model number A Google search is not helpful. I have the installation instructions from Datasat that state it only supports 4:2:0 4k at 60Hz. Based on my research that uses 13.5 Gbps bandwidth.

I am not an expert but not sure why they would state "Up to 4k pixel rates at 24-60 Hz (4:4:4)" and then state "4k 4:2:0 format video at 60Hz". It can't handle 4k 4:4:4 at 60Hz. But I am not sure if this will mean that we will see banding on 60Hz content on video games in 4k HDR or on movies like Billy Lynn's Long Halftime... 4k blu-ray.

I know the new Sony projectors 285, 385 and 675) have the 13.5Gbps limit while the JVC line has 18Gbps. And that or other bottlenecks in the Sony video path cause banding in 4k 60Hz HDR video games and movie programming.

Is HDR 4k blu-ray only 4:2:0?
If you go to mds's website and download the pdf file with that model number it will tell you everything you need to know. but thanks for jumping to conclusions. I was just trying to help, hope you found the info you need

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post #5444 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I am not an expert but not sure why they would state "Up to 4k pixel rates at 24-60 Hz (4:4:4)" and then state "4k 4:2:0 format video at 60Hz". It can't handle 4k 4:4:4 at 60Hz. But I am not sure if this will mean that we will see banding on 60Hz content on video games in 4k HDR or on movies like Billy Lynn's Long Halftime... 4k blu-ray.
4:2:0 over HDMI is only valid at 60Hz, hence the additional clarifying statement. It can handle 4k 4:4:4 at 60Hz (8-bit only).

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post #5445 of 6155 Old 12-26-2017, 08:45 PM
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If you go to mds's website and download the pdf file with that model number it will tell you everything you need to know. but thanks for jumping to conclusions. I was just trying to help, hope you found the info you need
Your original post was not clear and assumed I knew the board was made by MDS. I was using the information I had and did not know to go to the MDS website. We have to make some assumptions to further discussions.

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@farsider3000 I just noticed in your signature that you have lots of woofage in your theater: Three 18 inches from JTR and Dual SubMersives. I knew you must be a good guy. And the cubic feet of your theater is = ?

Given the LS10, how do you manage those? miniDSP?
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post #5447 of 6155 Old 12-27-2017, 11:45 AM
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@farsider3000 I just noticed in your signature that you have lots of woofage in your theater: Three 18 inches from JTR and Dual SubMersives. I knew you must be a good guy. And the cubic feet of your theater is = ?

Given the LS10, how do you manage those? miniDSP?
My theater is right at 3,000 ft^3. There are four subs:

1.) JTR Captivator S2 (dual 18") (front center)
2.) JTR Captivator S1 (single 18") (rear center)
3.) Seaton Submersive HP (dual 15") left side
4.) Seaton Submersive HP (dual 15") right side

I control these with an Xilica XP8040 (up to 4 inputs and 8 outputs). I am still tweaking to find the right balance . The Xilica is very powerful and allows for PEQ, shelfs, etc. but it must be accessed via PC. Multiple presets can be stored and compared to allow for a lot of tweaking.
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
My theater is right at 3,000 ft^3. There are four subs:

1.) JTR Captivator S2 (dual 18") (front center)
2.) JTR Captivator S1 (single 18") (rear center)
3.) Seaton Submersive HP (dual 15") left side
4.) Seaton Submersive HP (dual 15") right side

I control these with an Xilica XP8040 (up to 4 inputs and 8 outputs). I am still tweaking to find the right balance . The Xilica is very powerful and allows for PEQ, shelfs, etc. but it must be accessed via PC. Multiple presets can be stored and compared to allow for a lot of tweaking.
I was thinking about adding a xilica to my system. Have you used minidsp? Just wondering if any benefits from one manufacturer over another? I like how the rs20i manages subs. But I feel I can achieve a bit better cohesion with an external dsp. Esp with delays
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post #5449 of 6155 Old 12-27-2017, 01:41 PM
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I was thinking about adding a xilica to my system. Have you used minidsp? Just wondering if any benefits from one manufacturer over another? I like how the rs20i manages subs. But I feel I can achieve a bit better cohesion with an external dsp. Esp with delays
I have the miniDSP. It does provide a good bit more flexibility depending on how you are driving your subs. For example, the RS20i doesn't have functions like shelf filters.

Datasat tech guys prefer to calibrate the subs separately, which I have tried. Takes away a key advantage of using multiple subs to smooth out the overall response.
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post #5450 of 6155 Old 12-27-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I control these with an Xilica XP8040 (up to 4 inputs and 8 outputs). I am still tweaking to find the right balance . The Xilica is very powerful and allows for PEQ, shelfs, etc. but it must be accessed via PC. Multiple presets can be stored and compared to allow for a lot of tweaking.
The miniDSP I have is also very flexible ... BUT the combinations and permutations of settings is either a tweaker's delight ..... OR nightmare.

I have been diddling with my subs for multiple years and am still not completely satisfied. I will listen to one movie and am convinced it is the very best bass I have ever heard anywhere. Then listen to another and decide more diddling is necessary.

And FWIW, the ONLY time I was 100% happy with my bass was when I had 4 SubMersives. But in order to get some money for other stuff, sold them and went DIY. BAD decision. I have yet to recover - even though I sold the DIY subs and went with 8 Seaton F18's !!!
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Anyone happen to know the type of filters that the Datasat uses for crossover slopes (Bessel; Linkwitz-Riley; Butterworth)? These are identified for high and low pass filters but could not find the type used in crossovers.
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post #5452 of 6155 Old 12-28-2017, 10:44 AM
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Anyone happen to know the type of filters that the Datasat uses for crossover slopes (Bessel; Linkwitz-Riley; Butterworth)? These are identified for high and low pass filters but could not find the type used in crossovers.
They use all 3 with selectable slopes

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #5453 of 6155 Old 12-28-2017, 10:51 AM
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They use all 3 with selectable slopes
That is what they do for individual channel high and low pass filters. In BM, they offer 2 slopes (12 or 24) but do not specify the type, hence my question.
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That is what they do for individual channel high and low pass filters. In BM, they offer 2 slopes (12 or 24) but do not specify the type, hence my question.
Ooops...Not at smart as I thought I was

I will ask the question next time I am in contact...

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Anyone happen to know the type of filters that the Datasat uses for crossover slopes (Bessel; Linkwitz-Riley; Butterworth)? These are identified for high and low pass filters but could not find the type used in crossovers.
Bass Management uses Linkwitz-Riley.
Output crossovers are selectable type.
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post #5456 of 6155 Old 12-31-2017, 05:56 PM
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post #5457 of 6155 Old 01-01-2018, 05:09 PM
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Let's hope ATI can supply this Dirac Live update to the RS20i:


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...rection-system
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post #5458 of 6155 Old 01-01-2018, 05:57 PM
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Let's hope ATI can supply this Dirac Live update to the RS20i:


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...rection-system
Thanks for the info but I don't like this sentence:

"The app is so intuitive that users with no technical expertise will be able to use it, according to the press release Dirac issued. "

Hell no, will Dirac become Audyssey? I really don't like this path. Honestly, Dirac was already something like Audyssey Pro and now even more? I really don't like this, more auto-pilot and less individual influence? Not my cup of tea.
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Thanks for the info but I don't like this sentence:

"The app is so intuitive that users with no technical expertise will be able to use it, according to the press release Dirac issued. "

Hell no, will Dirac become Audyssey? I really don't like this path. Honestly, Dirac was already something like Audyssey Pro and now even more? I really don't like this, more auto-pilot and less individual influence? Not my cup of tea.
They aren't removing any functionality. You will still have full manual control available.

I think that it would be great if Dirac replaced Audyssey.
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post #5460 of 6155 Old 01-01-2018, 06:32 PM
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If a system is easer to use with better performance (with the option of manual control) then I am all for it. Give me an autonomous car that can drive me to and from work during peak traffic while giving me full control through the canyons and I'll jump into it with glee.
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