Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 204 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6091 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 01:58 AM
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I never saw such an option so I “made do”!!
What was the result? Is the room treated?
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post #6092 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 06:20 AM
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What was the result? Is the room treated?
The room is treated but massively over-damped (ALL absorption). But, the result, that had ZERO to do with Dirac or the room being over damped, was not pleasant. The bed level speakers and height speakers sound OK. But the design included the gigantic Wisdom sub to be placed under the riser and pushed right up against the chairs of the first row. (The port from the sub is pushed up against the front row seats) As a result (and the room does not sit on concrete) the entire riser becomes a gigantic moving surface, which (a) distorts the bass and (b) moves even at the slightest bass output - which I and the guy I was working with found totally unacceptable. When hard hitting bass occurs, the front row gets violently pushed and it is very unpleasant. And if your feet are on the floor (2nd row), it is also very unpleasant. And even if your feet are not touching the floor, it is very unpleasant. The guy that came up with this design should be fired.

In order to even be able to stay in the room, I had to turn the bass levels way below what they would have had the sub been placed in a reasonable location. The homeowner will hear the system today (I'm no longer on site) and I am most anxious to hear about their thoughts. If it were my home, I would insist that the sub be moved and paid for by the company that did the design. (and, of course, the PC that we were using that had Dirac on it started acting up !!)
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post #6093 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Datasat Calibration Question:

I am helping someone with an RS20i set up and calibration. They have two rows of seats and 98% of the time, only one row will be in use so I have already calibrated it. On those rare occasions when the grand kids are present, I need to come up with a better set of measurements so was planning on doing the measurements in the area between the two rows - BUT, the first row is a good bit lower than the second.

Any recommendations on the best mic placement? (This is a no brainer with my Trinnov but not sure how to proceed here)??


Thanks.

This statement is intriguing as this is my exact situation , two dedicated rows with the second row higher in the back . I have a third row bar seating for overflow on occasion, not too worried about absolute sound presentation there . But for the first two rows I always questioned making the MLP position mid way between the seating simply because neither seat is getting the best presentation in distance or height. I personally use both the front and rear seating depending on the movie, and I always use the center seat .



Are you saying Tinnov can provide a better solution in this situation ? Thinking about this last night , if I could have a preset for the front or back row , that would be ideal . For "all" seating using both rows with a larger group ( no grand kids yet) a third preset that averages would be better. Now this mostly applies for a 16 channel system with only 9 beds, 6 overheads, for a 20+ channel processor, one could simply add additional side surrounds and overheads to fill in those gaps.

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post #6094 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 07:06 AM
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This statement is intriguing as this is my exact situation , two dedicated rows with the second row higher in the back . I have a third row bar seating for overflow on occasion, not too worried about absolute sound presentation there . But for the first two rows I always questioned making the MLP position mid way between the seating simply because neither seat is getting the best presentation in distance or height. I personally use both the front and rear seating depending on the movie, and I always use the center seat .

Are you saying Tinnov can provide a better solution in this situation ? Thinking about this last night , if I could have a preset for the front or back row , that would be ideal . For "all" seating using both rows with a larger group ( no grand kids yet) a third preset that averages would be better. Now this mostly applies for a 16 channel system with only 9 beds, 6 overheads, for a 20+ channel processor, one could simply add additional side surrounds and overheads to fill in those gaps.
With the Trinnov, you would measure at ALL seats (and in the primary seats, probably multiple locations). But there is a "weighting" feature. So that you would have one Preset for one row (and maybe one seat if you are the only one in the room), where all other locations were set to "zero". Do the same for the other row. And a third preset where every seat gets the same percentage. On set of measurements with as many Presets as are necessary. That is just one of the many reasons that I prefer the Trinnov. And after using the Datasat for the last 3 days, there are LOTS more, even forgetting about sound quality.
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post #6095 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 07:30 AM
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Chuck,
if you are using the Dirac software it has a "multi-row" option. It takes measurements in both rows and comes up with a "compromise" result. Not sure how well it will work in that scenario but worth trying. You could make 3 presets - one for just front row, one for just rear row, and a third "compromise" set....

Well great, Dirac can do presets exactly as I just explained in my previous post , excellent .



A question to all :


Has anyone in this group had the opportunity to A/B between a 16 and 20+ channel system set up professionally in a treated room using Trinnov , Datastat, Lyngforf , Stormaudio, Acurus, etc. ? BTW I'm interested in home theater surround only, not two channel . Is there a noticeable difference worth the difference in cost for a two row average theater or is 16 channels enough when set up properly ?

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post #6096 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 09:40 AM
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Roxie do you have the Datasat RS20?

You'll get all kinds of opinions about going beyond 16 speakers but my personal opinion is that 7 speakers ground level with 4 ceiling and enough subs to satisfy is perfect for 2 rows. If I hear a system that has more speakers and satisfies me more then I'll be the first to admit it...
Many systems I've seen that go beyond 7.1.4 have a bunch of really small speakers for the additional speakers and I have no interest in doing that. Go big or go home!
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post #6097 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 09:41 AM
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I just saw from your sig that you have the Denon. I personally love the Datasat but given what's happening with the company I'm not sure I'd recommend getting one, just like Chuck has pointed out...

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post #6098 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
The room is treated but massively over-damped (ALL absorption). But, the result, that had ZERO to do with Dirac or the room being over damped, was not pleasant. The bed level speakers and height speakers sound OK. But the design included the gigantic Wisdom sub to be placed under the riser and pushed right up against the chairs of the first row. (The port from the sub is pushed up against the front row seats) As a result (and the room does not sit on concrete) the entire riser becomes a gigantic moving surface, which (a) distorts the bass and (b) moves even at the slightest bass output - which I and the guy I was working with found totally unacceptable. When hard hitting bass occurs, the front row gets violently pushed and it is very unpleasant. And if your feet are on the floor (2nd row), it is also very unpleasant. And even if your feet are not touching the floor, it is very unpleasant. The guy that came up with this design should be fired.

In order to even be able to stay in the room, I had to turn the bass levels way below what they would have had the sub been placed in a reasonable location. The homeowner will hear the system today (I'm no longer on site) and I am most anxious to hear about their thoughts. If it were my home, I would insist that the sub be moved and paid for by the company that did the design. (and, of course, the PC that we were using that had Dirac on it started acting up !!)
This is an example of how money can be wasted senselessly.
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post #6099 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 10:20 AM
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Well great, Dirac can do presets exactly as I just explained in my previous post , excellent .



A question to all :


Has anyone in this group had the opportunity to A/B between a 16 and 20+ channel system set up professionally in a treated room using Trinnov , Datastat, Lyngforf , Stormaudio, Acurus, etc. ? BTW I'm interested in home theater surround only, not two channel . Is there a noticeable difference worth the difference in cost for a two row average theater or is 16 channels enough when set up properly ?
I have been able to test a Trinnov/StormAudio/Datasat/NAD in a cinema for some time now. I can't remember many details, the best sound was the Trinnov-32 and StormAudio, the Trinnov-16 was a disappointment for us.
Trinnov-32 is and remains a reference, but it has to be paid.
Spoke gestures with an integrator who confirmed my experience.
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post #6100 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 10:28 AM
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Well great, Dirac can do presets exactly as I just explained in my previous post , excellent .
A question to all :

Has anyone in this group had the opportunity to A/B between a 16 and 20+ channel system set up professionally in a treated room using Trinnov , Datastat, Lyngforf , Stormaudio, Acurus, etc. ? BTW I'm interested in home theater surround only, not two channel . Is there a noticeable difference worth the difference in cost for a two row average theater or is 16 channels enough when set up properly ?
Probably the only guy that can answer that is Adam Pelz. I have compared the Trinnov and Datasat. Thinking about the fact that (a) the Datasat has lost the two guys who knew how to actively support it (the two Mikes); (b) is no longer an active product; (c) getting the license to do your own calibration can be problematic (at best) and (d) only support 11 channels, I would remove it from the equation.

Price notwithstanding, the Trinnov still wins (even if you exclude the ultimate sound quality). All Dirac based products use an external PC to perform the calibration so there is interplay between the VNC to control the processor and the PC doing Dirac. The Trinnov is all one piece. Having just done a Datasat calibration this week, the usability of the Trinnov with everything inside the box is big benefit. With the Datasat version of Dirac, there was no ability to PEQ south of 20Hz which in my recent job was necessary. While there is not an exact correlation of Dirac slots or Trinnov Presets, the number of Trinnov presets (30) give you a lot more flexibility. The ability to determine the granularity of the filters in the Trinnov does not exist in Dirac. I could go on.

That said, if you already have a Datasat product and have no interest in expanding beyond 7.x.4, I would never consider swapping to anything else.
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In this league everyone plays in a cloud, sound-wise there are only small nuances that one likes more, the other less. I would prefer room treatment and good calibration than pointlessly sinking money into electronics. In an untreated room everything sounds the same.
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post #6102 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 11:38 AM
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In this league everyone plays in a cloud, sound-wise there are only small nuances that one likes more, the other less. I would prefer room treatment and good calibration than pointlessly sinking money into electronics. In an untreated room everything sounds the same.

Pretty much !!
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In this league everyone plays in a cloud, sound-wise there are only small nuances that one likes more, the other less. I would prefer room treatment and good calibration than pointlessly sinking money into electronics. In an untreated room everything sounds the same.

Excellent point indeed . I've learned this very important rule from reading many threads recently , a seasoned audiophile engineer with forty years in the business said the very same to me earlier today . This is exactly why my new theater is designed to have excellent acoustics, certainly miles ahead of my last theater .


This is why I was asking about the difference between 16 channels and 20+ in a medium size theater when acoustics are great and the setup is calibrated appropriately . If you can get 95% of the sound stage imaging with a high end 16 channel solution in a acoustically treated room that is great . Like all variables in this hobby, the last 10% of performance comes at a big cost .Well, there are plenty of options for everyone , I'm still searching for mine , the list is certainly getting shorter now.

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post #6104 of 6111 Old 01-10-2020, 06:09 PM
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I have been able to test a Trinnov/StormAudio/Datasat/NAD in a cinema for some time now. I can't remember many details, the best sound was the Trinnov-32 and StormAudio, the Trinnov-16 was a disappointment for us.
Trinnov-32 is and remains a reference, but it has to be paid.
Spoke gestures with an integrator who confirmed my experience.

Interesting point on the Altitude 16, it was one of those on my list. I thought the only difference between the Trinnov 16 and 32 was channel count, it would appear they are different products if they are such a departure sound wise . Do you mean two channel sound , 3D sound stage or both ?

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Interesting point on the Altitude 16, it was one of those on my list. I thought the only difference between the Trinnov 16 and 32 was channel count, it would appear they are different products if they are such a departure sound wise . Do you mean two channel sound , 3D sound stage or both ?

I can't argue with what the person heard who claims the 32 and 16 sounded different. But according to Trinnov, they should sound identical assuming both were processing nothing higher than 24/96. And I would agree with Trinnov !!
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Excellent point indeed . I've learned this very important rule from reading many threads recently , a seasoned audiophile engineer with forty years in the business said the very same to me earlier today . This is exactly why my new theater is designed to have excellent acoustics, certainly miles ahead of my last theater .


This is why I was asking about the difference between 16 channels and 20+ in a medium size theater when acoustics are great and the setup is calibrated appropriately . If you can get 95% of the sound stage imaging with a high end 16 channel solution in a acoustically treated room that is great . Like all variables in this hobby, the last 10% of performance comes at a big cost .Well, there are plenty of options for everyone , I'm still searching for mine , the list is certainly getting shorter now.
I would recommend Trinnov and Storm, both are making good progress and the service is top.
It's best to listen to both of them, because the tastes are different, which I miss must not be to your liking.
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post #6107 of 6111 Old 01-11-2020, 05:13 PM
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I have been able to test a Trinnov/StormAudio/Datasat/NAD in a cinema for some time now. I can't remember many details, the best sound was the Trinnov-32 and StormAudio, the Trinnov-16 was a disappointment for us.
Trinnov-32 is and remains a reference, but it has to be paid.
Spoke gestures with an integrator who confirmed my experience.
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Interesting point on the Altitude 16, it was one of those on my list. I thought the only difference between the Trinnov 16 and 32 was channel count, it would appear they are different products if they are such a departure sound wise . Do you mean two channel sound , 3D sound stage or both ?
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I can't argue with what the person heard who claims the 32 and 16 sounded different. But according to Trinnov, they should sound identical assuming both were processing nothing higher than 24/96. And I would agree with Trinnov !!
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I would recommend Trinnov and Storm, both are making good progress and the service is top.
It's best to listen to both of them, because the tastes are different, which I miss must not be to your liking.
The assertions of @[email protected] were proof of the power of suggestion and expectation bias for me. At first listen, I heard exactly what he predicted I would when A/B'ing the StormAudio based Bryston SP4 vs Trinnov Altitude 16. After performing proper level matching (within 0.05dB at the pre-amp outputs) I could not reliably identify any differences. I have since confirmed that the Altitude 16 and 32 XLR interface hardware is identical.

@roxiedog13 it would be a mistake to discount the Altitude 16 based on these anecdotal experiences (which can easily be attributed to ownership effect and expectation bias).
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post #6108 of 6111 Old 01-11-2020, 05:50 PM
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The assertions of @[email protected] were proof of the power of suggestion and expectation bias for me. At first listen, I heard exactly what he predicted I would when A/B'ing the StormAudio based Bryston SP4 vs Trinnov Altitude 16. After performing proper level matching (within 0.05dB at the pre-amp outputs) I could not reliably identify any differences. I have since confirmed that the Altitude 16 and 32 XLR interface hardware is identical.

@roxiedog13 it would be a mistake to discount the Altitude 16 based on these anecdotal experiences (which can easily be attributed to ownership effect and expectation bias).
More importantly, "anecdotal experience", by ONE person in a non-controlled environment. Given the only difference (according to Trinnov) between the two products (channel count notwithstanding) is the ability of the A32 to work at 24/192. Meaning, short of comparing a 24/96 piece of music on the A16 vs 24/192 on the A32, there will be no sonic differences. As in NONE!!

But I most certainly understand how expectation bias can have us hear something that is not there.

I would urge the individual who "heard differences" to view the following.

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A quick note for those of you with the 4K/60 HDMI 1.4 card. You can make that card pass 4k/24 4:2:2 12bit HDR using only a cheap HDFury Doctor 4K; just though others might find this useful.
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A quick note for those of you with the 4K/60 HDMI 1.4 card. You can make that card pass 4k/24 4:2:2 12bit HDR using only a cheap HDFury Doctor 4K; just though others might find this useful.
HDR10 only I'm guessing. Dolby Vision? HDR10+?
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post #6111 of 6111 Old 01-13-2020, 01:04 AM
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HDR10 only I'm guessing. Dolby Vision? HDR10+?
I only tested HDR10. Enabling HDR in Windows caused the Panasonic TV to change to HDR mode (This only worked once I have the correct EDID selected in the 4K Doctor.) HLG can be enabled with EDID and I think HDR10+ can too. DV is more difficult, it needs EDID which I assume the Doctor 4K can do but I seem to remember DV has a metadata element too and I have no idea if the 4K/60 card will pass that.
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