Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 205 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6121 of 6152 Old 03-02-2020, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by edmiston View Post
Did I see in one of the above posts that all is not well in the ATI group of companies? The last thing I need is to buy an unsupported complicated product. Any advice you guys have is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

About ATI and Datasat, this is difficult to answer. There are less people from the technical department but if you want to buy something, there is usually a quick answer from Buzz and Natasha. This is at least my experience. What will happen with the RS and LS, is open to me. However, they are very nice and especially reliable units for the actual available media - 7.1.4 at most. Everything else is 'snake oil', at least for the current available media.

DTS:X Pro, who knows, may be coming soon, but there is no media supporting this.
What Trinnov does, if you have more than 16 channels is simulating and upmixing. That's it.


For digital outs, the RS20i has 16 digital outs in AES/EBU but you need the right DB25 to XLR cable set. It has some drawbacks - limited to 96 kHz but this is also the case for Dirac and also some volume issues mentioned before. But that's it.

My personal opinion about the future of Datasat: If they succeed to be the prime IMAX Enhanced provider for sound, which they are not at the moment, regarding the DTS legacy, they may become a standard for cinema again. But they aren't currently. Trinnov is taking their crown, they had in cinema in DTS.


Just my two cents about the future of Datasat...
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post #6122 of 6152 Old 03-03-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
DTS:X Pro, who knows, may be coming soon, but there is no media supporting this. What Trinnov does, if you have more than 16 channels is simulating and upmixing. That's it.

Let me help you out here and this is from those in Trinnov who most certainly know. DTS:X Pro is already available on all of the Trinnov processors. I have it on mine. DTS:X Pro is a new decoder and it supports renders of up to 30.2 channels. (There is also a new version of the upmixer (Neural:X), but that is a separate process.) There is no such thing as "DTS:X Pro media" – any DTS:X Pro disc will now simply be rendered better by the new decoder. DTS:X Pro uses BOTH the rendering engine and Neural:X (on the bed channels only) for a richer experience. Clever, since it mitigates the problem of lazy mixers who effectively pre-printed a render.
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post #6123 of 6152 Old 03-05-2020, 02:52 PM
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Hi audioguy,


what you are writing is all true but it doesn't change that there are no discrete tracks for Atmos and DTS:X as of now, exceeding four ceiling/height channels. No question about Trinnov Altitude, being at the forefront and Datasat currently far behind, but it is currently questionable - for me - to spend a lot of money for the possibilities of having more speakers for artificially generated sound on these speakers, even Trinnov does this very well.


Just my 2 cents....
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post #6124 of 6152 Old 03-05-2020, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Hi audioguy,


what you are writing is all true but it doesn't change that there are no discrete tracks for Atmos and DTS:X as of now, exceeding four ceiling/height channels. No question about Trinnov Altitude, being at the forefront and Datasat currently far behind, but it is currently questionable - for me - to spend a lot of money for the possibilities of having more speakers for artificially generated sound on these speakers, even Trinnov does this very well.


Just my 2 cents....
Plenty of Atmos mixes exceed 7.1.4; wides and mid tops are often present. Please don't confuse Disney with the whole market.
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post #6125 of 6152 Old 03-05-2020, 06:10 PM
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Plenty of Atmos mixes exceed 7.1.4; wides and mid tops are often present. Please don't confuse Disney with the whole market.

Can you prove this? I am also not talking Disney, which is a very bad example, I agree. I am talking about the whole market. And wides, really? Wides are not part of the Atmos speaker layout and I know complaints from people having six ceiling speakers and are disappointed that they are not working correctly. That may be a decoding problem of the current software but I saw BDs explicitly saying on the back 7.1.4.
I strongly doubt, that there are any sources offering more than 7.1.4 discrete or object-oriented channels for the home cinema market at the moment.


Prove me, that I am wrong and I am happy to agree. Thank you.

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post #6126 of 6152 Old 03-06-2020, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Can you prove this? I am also not talking Disney, which is a very bad example, I agree. I am talking about the whole market. And wides, really? Wides are not part of the Atmos speaker layout and I know complaints from people having six ceiling speakers and are disappointed that they are not working correctly. That may be a decoding problem of the current software but I saw BDs explicitly saying on the back 7.1.4.
I strongly doubt, that there are any sources offering more than 7.1.4 discrete or object-oriented channels for the home cinema market at the moment.


Prove me, that I am wrong and I am happy to agree. Thank you.

You are very wrong and easy to prove but I won't be able to do so for about a week as I am undergoing some system changes. But the Trinnov shows input and output meters. The input meters show what is on the disc. If you go to the Trinnov thread, you will get LOTS of responses to this incorrect assumption and hopefully some will show the input meters page. One (non-movie) example that I used to test out my wides is the album - REM - Automatic for the People in Dolby Atmos. It will use virtually every speaker in my system. But since you want "proof" (the meters image) you will need to ask on the Trinnov forum - at least for another week.


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post #6127 of 6152 Old 03-06-2020, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
You are very wrong and easy to prove but I won't be able to do so for about a week as I am undergoing some system changes. But the Trinnov shows input and output meters. The input meters show what is on the disc. If you go to the Trinnov thread, you will get LOTS of responses to this incorrect assumption and hopefully some will show the input meters page. One (non-movie) example that I used to test out my wides is the album - REM - Automatic for the People in Dolby Atmos. It will use virtually every speaker in my system. But since you want "proof" (the meters image) you will need to ask on the Trinnov forum - at least for another week.


Not quite as conclusive but if you are an HTPC user then Mediainfo can tell you how many objects are encoded in an Atmos track. These objects typically line up with preset speaker positions for most studios, there are some particularly music titles which do it properly with less regard for typical speaker positions and only thinking about objects/ Probably 1/2 of the last years worth of big blockbusters are 14 or 16 channel (Fixed object positions).
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post #6128 of 6152 Old 03-07-2020, 08:58 AM
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Thank you Krobar and also thank you for the information about Mediainfo.


I downloaded it and checked the Atmos track of 'Lucy'. Coming back to the basics and I hope, I don't bore you too much with this, Atmos consists of the so called 'Bed', which can be up to 9.1 in the conventional AC3/Dolby Digital coding and Atmos is an extension. But it seems, only 8 channels of the possible 10 channels are used, I guess due to compatibility with BD standards. This reads in Mediainfo as following:


Audio #2
ID : 4353 (0x1101)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3 MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3 + Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Muxing mode : Stream extension
Codec ID : 131
Duration : 1 h 29 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 640 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 8 685 kb/s
Channel(s) : 8 channels
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -1 ms
Stream size : 410 MiB (1%)
Service kind : Complete Main
Number of dynamic objects : 11
Bed channel count : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration : LFE



As you can see the channel layout is conventional 7 channel, plus LFE. There are 11 dynamic objects encoded - far away from the 128 and it is MLP FBA packaging with 16 channels. I have to say, I can only guess but this is the total number of channels. So, if I am correct you can have 8 channels for the 'Bed' and additional 8 channels for the dynamic objects mapped to a maximum of 8 speakers.

Please correct me, if I am wrong. Thank you in advance.
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post #6129 of 6152 Old 03-07-2020, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Thank you Krobar and also thank you for the information about Mediainfo.


I downloaded it and checked the Atmos track of 'Lucy'. Coming back to the basics and I hope, I don't bore you too much with this, Atmos consists of the so called 'Bed', which can be up to 9.1 in the conventional AC3/Dolby Digital coding and Atmos is an extension. But it seems, only 8 channels of the possible 10 channels are used, I guess due to compatibility with BD standards. This reads in Mediainfo as following:


Audio #2
ID : 4353 (0x1101)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3 MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3 + Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Muxing mode : Stream extension
Codec ID : 131
Duration : 1 h 29 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 640 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 8 685 kb/s
Channel(s) : 8 channels
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -1 ms
Stream size : 410 MiB (1%)
Service kind : Complete Main
Number of dynamic objects : 11
Bed channel count : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration : LFE



As you can see the channel layout is conventional 7 channel, plus LFE. There are 11 dynamic objects encoded - far away from the 128 and it is MLP FBA packaging with 16 channels. I have to say, I can only guess but this is the total number of channels. So, if I am correct you can have 8 channels for the 'Bed' and additional 8 channels for the dynamic objects mapped to a maximum of 8 speakers.

Please correct me, if I am wrong. Thank you in advance.
You are close, where you've gone wrong is that the dynamic objects are not mapped to speakers, they are mapped to locations. The more speakers, you have, the more spatial resolution the renderer has for rendering those objects. So whether you have a 5.1.2 or a 7.1.4 or a 9.1.6 or even a 24.1.10 channel Atmos system, all of those speakers will be used as the objects move around the room.

Also (and this is a small point, but just to be clear), although cinema Atmos has a 9.1 channel bed, home Atmos has a 7.1 channel bed. Any use of the overhead speakers in a home Atmos mix is done by invoking objects.
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post #6130 of 6152 Old 03-07-2020, 05:55 PM
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Thank you and this makes sense for me. I wasn't 100% sure how to interpret this derived data. Your explanation makes absolutely sense for me.
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post #6131 of 6152 Old 03-08-2020, 07:38 AM
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I, too, have some questions about the data presented by Mediainfo (and thanks for pointing that app out).

Here is the data for Hurricane Heist.



Questions:

(1): What is the meaning of the "Meridian 16 channel number"?

(2) Every movie I looked at listed 8 channels. What exactly does that mean? That only 8 bed channels will be used for objects? (I think not)

(3) Is there a direct correlation (at least hypothetically) between the number of objects (in this case, 15) and the overall immersiveness of the presentation?
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post #6132 of 6152 Old 03-08-2020, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Questions:

(1): What is the meaning of the "Meridian 16 channel number"?

(2) Every movie I looked at listed 8 channels. What exactly does that mean? That only 8 bed channels will be used for objects? (I think not)

(3) Is there a direct correlation (at least hypothetically) between the number of objects (in this case, 15) and the overall immersiveness of the presentation?

For (1), I would be also interested what this means. I also found this MLP FBA and couldn't find in the Internet what FBA stands for.


For (2) and if I understood the explanation from dschulz correctly, the 'Bed' is always 8 channels which is the maximum of channels. But, this has nothing to do with the objects. The objects will be rendered on as many speakers you have available, also the 'Bed' channels, it seems. But, as dschulz pointed out, the dynamic objects are locations of up to 15 objects, in this case and are rendered according their location and independently of the number of channels you have. A bit tricky but it surely doesn't mean, that only 8 bed channels are used for the objects, all available speakers are used for the objects but not for the 'Bed'.


In other words, Atmos is a mix of channel-oriented and object-oriented sound, due to backward compatibility. To have all sound events rendered, even if you have only 'Bed' speakers or a 5.1 setup, the objects have to be rendered depending on the available speaker layout. That means on the other hand, that the more speakers you have, the better. However, there must be a break even point, when more speakers don't add more to the immersive soundscape. At least my guess.


(3), yes, I think you can say so, hypothetically. I would say that 'immersiveness' depends on the mix itself, the number of objects and the total number of speakers available to render the objects. The question for me personally is only the trade off between the efforts you have to do and the result. But I assume, that you can achieve a better overall immersive sound with more speakers and especially an Altitude.


Just my two cents.

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post #6133 of 6152 Old 03-08-2020, 10:53 AM
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Here is what I found out about these questions:

(1): What is the meaning of the "Meridian 16 channel number"? Meridian sold their MLP technology to Dolby, who renamed it Dolby TrueHD. Until a few years ago, Meridian received a royalty on every disc produced using MLP/TrueHD. Then the patent period, or contract, or whatever ran out.

(2) Every movie I looked at listed 8 channels. What exactly does that mean? That only 8 bed channels will be used for objects? (I think not) Both DD+ and TrueHD are 8-channel formats in the sense that their "containers" have 8 channels. Even a 5.1 soundtrack would likely show 8 channels; two of them would simply be digital silence.

The object-oriented info in Atmos rides on another layer "on top" of the 8-channel base. This approach maintains soundtrack compatibility with older AVRs, etc.

(3) Is there a direct correlation (at least hypothetically) between the number of objects (in this case, 15) and the overall immersiveness of the presentation? Good question. Not necessarily. What really matters is what they choose to do with the 15 objects. We have seen movies where the objects move very little, which effectively turns them into extra channels. Even those can be quite immersive, depending on how they are mixed. But the real fun comes when the sounds designer and mixer actually use the tools as they were intended to be used (whether Atmos or DTS:X).
does a good job of explaining it.
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post #6134 of 6152 Old 03-09-2020, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
I got some limited support with a secondhand RS20I bought from an official dealer, the UK Datasat distro is really good. Datasat definitely still exist and do answer support queries but I think support is a bit sporadic, cant blame them for not being that intested in supporting products which are mostly long out of warranty.

You might also want to checkout the new JBL SDP-55, its alot cheaper and the included digital Dante output should be easy to convert to the digital SPDIF used by your Dynaudios.
Thanks. I have had a look at this unit and the Dante output sends out all (up to 16) digital channels through each of the two digital outs. The only Dante to SPDIF converter I could find is by RDL and it takes Dante in and outputs a single, two channel SPDIF. I am not sure how I would get five channels out. Did you know of another way? With the Datasat, the problem would be converting AES/EBU to SPDIF but that is a bit easier.

Thanks

Mark
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post #6135 of 6152 Old 03-09-2020, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by edmiston View Post
Thanks. I have had a look at this unit and the Dante output sends out all (up to 16) digital channels through each of the two digital outs. The only Dante to SPDIF converter I could find is by RDL and it takes Dante in and outputs a single, two channel SPDIF. I am not sure how I would get five channels out. Did you know of another way? With the Datasat, the problem would be converting AES/EBU to SPDIF but that is a bit easier.

Thanks

Mark
Maybe check with Dynaudio but those speakers have a SPDIF in and SPDIF out so I assume you are meant to daisy chain them. ie.
Dante SPDIF Converter Output -> Speaker 1 SPDIF Input
Speaker 1 SPDIF Output -> Speaker 2 SPDIF Input

Not used them but Micromedia seem to have quite a few Dante converters. They also have some with both Digital and Analogue output which could cover your Digital centre speaker and an analogue subwoofer for example.

Also a quick word of warning, the SDP-55 is pretty raw right now so check Dante works as expected with it or make sure you get an easy return policy.
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post #6136 of 6152 Old 03-09-2020, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Maybe check with Dynaudio but those speakers have a SPDIF in and SPDIF out so I assume you are meant to daisy chain them. ie.
Dante SPDIF Converter Output -> Speaker 1 SPDIF Input
Speaker 1 SPDIF Output -> Speaker 2 SPDIF Input

Not used them but Micromedia seem to have quite a few Dante converters. They also have some with both Digital and Analogue output which could cover your Digital centre speaker and an analogue subwoofer for example.

Also a quick word of warning, the SDP-55 is pretty raw right now so check Dante works as expected with it or make sure you get an easy return policy.
I do indeed intend to daisy chain them, but I have five speakers (no sub). So I would need one SPDIF to carry L and R, one to carry center, and one to carry surround L and R. This is where it gets tricky. And sadly, I know from experience with the Dynaudios, if you mix analogue and digital, like using the digital for front L and R, and analogue for center and surrounds, you create an unholy mess for a number of reasons.
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post #6137 of 6152 Old 03-10-2020, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by edmiston View Post
I do indeed intend to daisy chain them, but I have five speakers (no sub). So I would need one SPDIF to carry L and R, one to carry center, and one to carry surround L and R. This is where it gets tricky. And sadly, I know from experience with the Dynaudios, if you mix analogue and digital, like using the digital for front L and R, and analogue for center and surrounds, you create an unholy mess for a number of reasons.
I suspect the Centre will sit on the left channel of the pair so my guess is it would work fine with three Dante to SPDIF adapters.
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post #6138 of 6152 Old 03-13-2020, 11:24 PM
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Anybody knows what is the exclamation mark next to volume. The manual says to select "relax analog volume" to get rid of it. But when I make the volume higher than -30 i.e. -29, I get the exclamation mark even if there is no sound produced. -29 is very low especially if no sound is directed to RS20. There shouldn't be any clipping if that is what the symbol means.
I appreciate anyone's input.
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post #6139 of 6152 Old 03-20-2020, 10:20 AM
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No, not really. I get it later than you, around -12. It seems to be relative and no fixed settings. It seems to be a warning that the level is too high and might harm your ear, maybe... But -29 seems to me a bit too low. Usually, I listen around this volume, -28 to -24.

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No, not really. I get it later than you, around -12. It seems to be relative and no fixed settings. It seems to be a warning that the level is too high and might harm your ear, maybe... But -29 seems to me a bit too low. Usually, I listen around this volume, -28 to -24.
Thanks, appreciate it.
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post #6141 of 6152 Old 03-21-2020, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
No, not really. I get it later than you, around -12. It seems to be relative and no fixed settings. It seems to be a warning that the level is too high and might harm your ear, maybe... But -29 seems to me a bit too low. Usually, I listen around this volume, -28 to -24.
Can I ask how many subs do you have?
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post #6142 of 6152 Old 03-24-2020, 11:20 AM
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I bought my RS20i about two years ago. At the time my projector was only 1080. I just installed a SONY 5000es 4k HDR. I currently have all sources going to a Lumagen first then video to projector with one hdmi audio going to Datasat. I suspect my Datasat HDMI board isn’t capable of HDR. How can I tell?
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post #6143 of 6152 Old 03-27-2020, 12:57 PM
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I bought my RS20i about two years ago. At the time my projector was only 1080. I just installed a SONY 5000es 4k HDR. I currently have all sources going to a Lumagen first then video to projector with one hdmi audio going to Datasat. I suspect my Datasat HDMI board isn’t capable of HDR. How can I tell?

This question THAT stupid or is it just that no one wants to reply?
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post #6144 of 6152 Old 03-27-2020, 08:45 PM
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This question THAT stupid or is it just that no one wants to reply?
I would have replied if I knew the answer

In the setup menu it will say which version of the hdmi card is in your RS20. If it is the HSR41Q (I think) then it is the same as my card and it has 1 4k input, but I don't know if it supports hdr since I don't use it. I would suggest you email ATI with your serial number and ask them for the answer...
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post #6145 of 6152 Old 03-28-2020, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I would have replied if I knew the answer

In the setup menu it will say which version of the hdmi card is in your RS20. If it is the HSR41Q (I think) then it is the same as my card and it has 1 4k input, but I don't know if it supports hdr since I don't use it. I would suggest you email ATI with your serial number and ask them for the answer...

Thank you, Bogg. I appreciate it!
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post #6146 of 6152 Old 03-28-2020, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jazzrock View Post
I bought my RS20i about two years ago. At the time my projector was only 1080. I just installed a SONY 5000es 4k HDR. I currently have all sources going to a Lumagen first then video to projector with one hdmi audio going to Datasat. I suspect my Datasat HDMI board isn’t capable of HDR. How can I tell?
If you have the HSR41Q then my experience was it does not support HDR out of the box. Windows 10 would not offer HDR at all for me.

I tried loading an EDID with my HD Fury Dr 4K and I could then get Windows to detect HDR and enable it when using a Panasonic TV, my testing went no further. In theory with this EDID trick you could support up to 4K/24/30 4:2:2 12bit colour with HDR10, HLG and maybe DV but you mileage may vary hugely depending on the source device and display. The reason for this is the port will report HDMI 1.4 / HDCP 2 / 4K with HDR. Some display and source devices will insist on HDMI 2.0 to enable HDR others wont so please don't get angry if it doesn't work for you.
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post #6147 of 6152 Old 03-28-2020, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
If you have the HSR41Q then my experience was it does not support HDR out of the box. Windows 10 would not offer HDR at all for me.

I tried loading an EDID with my HD Fury Dr 4K and I could then get Windows to detect HDR and enable it when using a Panasonic TV, my testing went no further. In theory with this EDID trick you could support up to 4K/24/30 4:2:2 12bit colour with HDR10, HLG and maybe DV but you mileage may vary hugely depending on the source device and display. The reason for this is the port will report HDMI 1.4 / HDCP 2 / 4K with HDR. Some display and source devices will insist on HDMI 2.0 to enable HDR others wont so please don't get angry if it doesn't work for you.
This is very helpful as well. Thanks, Krobar.

The reason I'm now trying to figure this out is that I just installed a SONY 5000es projector replacing my Runco vx22-d. I'm using a Lumagen Pro for video processing. I'm also currently using the Lumagen for all switching. Meaning all source devices go into the Lumagen. The Lumagen sends video to the projector and audio to the Datasat. Generally this works quite well. However, as I use C4 to control everything thereb are some quirks doing it this way. I am trying to figure out if I can change this so that sources first go into the Datasat for switching. The video would then get passed to the Lumagen. In the end it may not be worth it. There are always trade offs.
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post #6148 of 6152 Old 03-28-2020, 06:17 AM
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It appears my HDMI is HSR41-2
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post #6149 of 6152 Old 03-28-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jazzrock View Post
This is very helpful as well. Thanks, Krobar.

The reason I'm now trying to figure this out is that I just installed a SONY 5000es projector replacing my Runco vx22-d. I'm using a Lumagen Pro for video processing. I'm also currently using the Lumagen for all switching. Meaning all source devices go into the Lumagen. The Lumagen sends video to the projector and audio to the Datasat. Generally this works quite well. However, as I use C4 to control everything thereb are some quirks doing it this way. I am trying to figure out if I can change this so that sources first go into the Datasat for switching. The video would then get passed to the Lumagen. In the end it may not be worth it. There are always trade offs.

I have C4 as well and all of my sources first go to the Lumagen. The audio goes from the Lumagen to my processor (now a Trinnov) and video to the projector. Works fine! What issues are you running into doing it that way (and what Lumagen recommends)?
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post #6150 of 6152 Old 04-01-2020, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzrock View Post
It appears my HDMI is HSR41-2

The current HDMI board version is HSR41-T. I have Q and HDR is working fine. The alphabetical letters are increasing. So T is older than Q. You can find some details in the release notes here: https://www.datasatdigital.com/rs20i/
under 'Additional Resources' and release notes.


Hope it helps.

Last edited by Ganymed4; 04-03-2020 at 09:23 PM.
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