Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 207 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6181 of 6217 Old 04-21-2020, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
It seems to work well with a UMIK-1 for me when I had one. Dirac have suggested the more expensive mic makes no difference and it is more for reliability / dealer heavy use.
I bought a calibrated UMIK 1 from Cross Spectrum Labs for about a $100
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post #6182 of 6217 Old 04-22-2020, 08:59 AM
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Seeking calibrators for my soon to be arriving RS 20i.
I had emailed and called Mark Seaton but have not heard back. He is probably busy.. ideally, If I can have him come for a personal visit, that would be perfect!
Considering Covid.. a remote calibration might be worth consideration..

Can someone post contact info of experienced Dirac+Datasat RS 20i calibrators who can come to Milwaukee or do remote calibrations?

Thank you.

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post #6183 of 6217 Old 04-23-2020, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I bought a calibrated UMIK 1 from Cross Spectrum Labs for about a $100
Thanks for the suggestion. It was out of stock at Cross but I was able to order directly from mini dsp and they shipped very promptly via dhl. Thanks for the suggestion. Saved from me paying a lot for the Datasat kit. Good to know that this mic is quite sufficient.
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post #6184 of 6217 Old 04-23-2020, 01:58 PM
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I don't think the one from mini dsp has an individually calibrated mic file. It is more of a generic calibration file. Not sure the real difference...I have both and I guess I could compare...if I find time I will...
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post #6185 of 6217 Old 04-25-2020, 08:57 AM
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I posted this in the Trinnov thread and am cross-posting for my fellow tweakers:

For you advanced tinkerers, the latest beta version of REW - Room Eq Wizard has this awesome tool which helps you align your speakers with your subs when using bass management. Basically, you pick your crossover frequency, let's say 80hz and activate the crossover in your ssp. You then take a sweep of your speaker individually with the crossover active and with time referenced to a standard source (I used my centre channel as the reference for time) - this is all done in REW. You run the sweep to the crossed over speaker separately from the crossed over sub. At this point you are trying to figure out how to set the delay (usually need to delay the speaker because the dsp in a sub even when turned off can contribute a certain amount of delay) to optimize the crossover region. You plug both sweeps into REW and you can do some "what-if" scenarios like "what if I reverse the phase of the sub" etc... The amazing part is that there is a button for aligning phase at a chosen frequency - in my case it was the 80hz crossover frequency and it tells you what delay to use.
Up to this point I had been using just the frequency response graphs to set the crossover but as I learned, you can get a smooth frequency response by just checking the phase and optimizing it the old fashioned way by reversing phase to the sub and adjusting delay until the lowest output is heard and then putting the phase back. The problem with that is that you could be "off" by a whole "cycle" and it would affect the response near the crossover frequency. Once I entered the delay value that REW gave me (10ms) I was absolutely astonished how much better my system sounded. I had spent many hours over the past month measuring, listening, adjusting, repeating. I had settled on a 5ms delay for my mains and it was pretty good but didn't get rid of a kind of "phasiness" or "oddness" to male voices. I always thought it was just my room signature because it was present on my mains alone and also with mains crossed to subs. I know it's not my speakers as I've heard them elsewhere. Anyway, long story short is that after 10 years in my dedicated room with the same speakers I think I'm finally getting to hear what they are capable of. The final tweaking is done by ear with slight changes to peq etc... Astonishing that this software is free. I will definitely be donating to the guy who came up with it...
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post #6186 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I am considering buying a used Dirac package. It includes the software and the mic package.

1. The seller said that the software can by used unrestricted on any number of computers, as long as only two people are logged in.
How ever..

2. I read at a few places that the software is restricted only to two computers and that you need to call datasat to have the key reset. Is this true?

Which is correct? 1 or 2?

3. The microphone kit he is selling is $1500.. Is it worthwhile to buy such an expensive Mic kit? Some one else mentioned $100 mic kit - is that "good enough"? Can you someone give me the model number? Someone mentioned a calibration file for the mike. I am not sure how that would work/or is used.

Thank you.

1. This is correct but is independent of the login. You register the software per PC.



2. You should be able to do this on your own on the Dirac web page.


3. What Datasat recommends is an Earthworks M23. This should cost around $500. But you also need a USB PRE2 ADC/DAC from Sound Devices, which is around $900. Together $1500 is close. The advantage of the UMIK 1 is that it is a USB microphone. If you can get one with an individual calibration it should be very close to the much more costly package. I have the expensive package, and I am very happy with it but haven't compared it to the UMIK 1.
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post #6187 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
3. What Datasat recommends is an Earthworks M23. This should cost around $500. But you also need a USB PRE2 ADC/DAC from Sound Devices, which is around $900. Together $1500 is close. The advantage of the UMIK 1 is that it is a USB microphone. If you can get one with an individual calibration it should be very close to the much more costly package. I have the expensive package, and I am very happy with it but haven't compared it to the UMIK 1.
I contacted DIRAC myself regarding the Mic (as I use the UMIK1). Here is their original response:

Hi,

the Earthworks certainly is a much better mic (it's an excellent choice) but with reference to aspects that are not that important within the limited scope of room acoustics measurements... so I personally don't expect that you will get much better results.

Good listenings, Flavio
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post #6188 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
1. This is correct but is independent of the login. You register the software per PC.
2. You should be able to do this on your own on the Dirac web page.,,,,
Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate it.
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post #6189 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Hi,the Earthworks certainly is a much better mic (it's an excellent choice) but with reference to aspects that are not that important within the limited scope of room acoustics measurements... so I personally don't expect that you will get much better results.Good listenings, Flavio
Great info! Good to know that UMIK1 is quite sufficient. Saved me $1400.. Umik1 is sold out at many places but minidsp delivered it very quickly (like in 3 days via dhl) from Asia.
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post #6190 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
the Earthworks certainly is a much better mic (it's an excellent choice)

Well, believe it or not, mine was broken after two years and it lived mainly in its box and no excessive force was applied. But Earthworks offers a 20 years warranty on their microphones and I also got the much needed 90° calibration. If you buy it in a shop it is delivered with a 0° calibration and the difference to 90° is really huge.

To get a 90° calibration you have to go to an independent calibration shop or send it to Earthworks. So I was somehow lucky regarding these unlucky events.
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post #6191 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Well, believe it or not, mine was broken after two years and it lived mainly in its box and no excessive force was applied. But Earthworks offers a 20 years warranty on their microphones and I also got the much needed 90° calibration. If you buy it in a shop it is delivered with a 0° calibration and the difference to 90° is really huge.

To get a 90° calibration you have to go to an independent calibration shop or send it to Earthworks. So I was somehow lucky regarding these unlucky events.
The UMIK 1 comes with a downloadable 90degree calibration file
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post #6192 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 09:27 AM
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Somehow yes, because room EQ is done with a 90° position of the microphone. If you use a 0° calibration in a 90° position you will lose a lot of high frequencies and this can be up to and exceeding 10 dB.
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post #6193 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Somehow yes, because room EQ is done with a 90° position of the microphone. If you use a 0° calibration in a 90° position you will lose a lot of high frequencies and this can be up to and exceeding 10 dB.
You seem to be very correct.. My thanks to you and Westmd for informing me about the 90 degree file.



https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1

Which calibration file should I use and where to point the UMIK-1?

We provide two calibration files to be used depending on your application.
- For stereo system (e.g. 2ch dirac live, single speaker measurement), use the 0deg file and point the UMIK-1 at the speakers
- For multichannel system (E.g. 5.1/7.1) or a surround application where multiple speakers are spreadout around the room, use the 90deg file and point the UMIK-1 at the ceiling.
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post #6194 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 10:51 AM
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How does one use the 90-deg mic cal when tuning speakers in the ceiling?

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post #6195 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 12:35 PM
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You use it in the same way as for the other speakers. I know there seems to be a discussion about the positioning but I did calibrations several times with ceiling speakers and a 90° position of the mike. Works fine at least judging from the results. Even with VoG speakers in an Auro layout this works very well.
Or do you have another proposal/opinion?
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post #6196 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
You use it in the same way as for the other speakers. I know there seems to be a discussion about the positioning but I did calibrations several times with ceiling speakers and a 90° position of the mike. Works fine at least judging from the results. Even with VoG speakers in an Auro layout this works very well.
Or do you have another proposal/opinion?
You mentioned the huge difference between 90 and 0 deg curves with the Earthworks. The data below shows it's about 3 dB at 10 kHz, and 6 dB at 20 kHz, for the UMIK-1 mic, so maybe not too much of a concern as long as the EQ correction is limited to 5 kHz.

Something to be aware of anyway.



Back in the day when I measured responses with REW, I pointed the mic at each speaker. That's not so easy with these automated processes.

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post #6197 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 01:25 PM
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Well that is really helpful information. I also would say that you can also measure, pointing directly at the speakers, but Dirac recommends in a 90° angle, pointing to the ceiling. You wrote this already, you are more dependent on automated processes like Dirac.
That what my broken M23 looked at 0° and the other at 90°
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post #6198 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
That what my broken M23 looked at 0° and the other at 90°
I'd say the M23 looks pretty consistent up to 10 kHz, only a 2 dB difference between the curves, which means there is no basis for concern about which file or which orientation as long as the EQ is cut off at 10 kHz or less.

It's only 1 dB worse for the UMIK (based on the stock cal file, not actual measurements as in M23 case).

So bottom line is I do not need to get too concerned about the overhead speakers being seen as "too hot" and thus forcing extra rolloff in the EQ as long as we do not believe these mics in the top octave or so.

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post #6199 of 6217 Old 04-28-2020, 04:42 PM
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Thank you Roger, excellent point
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post #6200 of 6217 Old 05-11-2020, 02:43 PM
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Recently I decided to try using Bass Management even though I have been enjoying things tremendously with bass management off. I'm a bit puzzled by what's happening when I turn bm on: if I do a sweep of channel 4 (the lfe channel) with bm turned off it is 10db higher than the same sweep with bm turned on (doesn't matter how many of the speakers are set to "small"). This is with a pcm input using Room Eq Wizard to send the sweep to the RS20. When I watch movies with DTS or DD the bass is clearly too low in level, probably 10db lol. The boxes for +10db are checked (default) for dts and dd but not for pcm. I don't understand why the sweep is 10db lower when bm is turned on. Does this mean that it is just "understood" that the sub volume level needs to be adjusted up when bass management is used? I sort of understand that the lfe channel gets a 10db boost prior to mixing in the bass from the other speakers that are bass managed but can't figure out if I am doing something wrong. I was on firmware version 1.05.02 so I upgraded to the latest firmware with the same result. Appreciate any input!

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post #6201 of 6217 Old 05-12-2020, 12:44 PM
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Try with the Apply LFE +10dB Options unchecked.

Try comparing the PCM sound levels from channel 4 with the PCM box checked and unchecked.
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post #6202 of 6217 Old 05-16-2020, 11:43 AM
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I will give that a try but for now I found a good balance by just turning up the sub volume. Seems to be fine for both movies and music. More of a curiosity since it doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps it is the intended behavior when bass management is used to allow for the bass headroom when the bass from the other channels is diverted to the subs.
After I upgraded to the latest firmware I didn't think the sound was as immersive. Turns out the upmixer got turned off during the upgrade, lol. The other settings seem to have carried forward...

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post #6203 of 6217 Old 05-21-2020, 03:11 PM
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It looks like checking the box for +10db for pcm sets the correct behavior for REW sweeps into channel 4. I'm sure it will work for hd audio as well, and I will post back if it doesn't. Looks like I may have to rewatch parts of some movies like Ford vs Ferrari and Terminator Dark Fate, just to experience the bass that people talked about that I sure didn't experience, lol.

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post #6204 of 6217 Old 05-22-2020, 12:04 PM
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Can someone give me the contact info or the name of the datasat dealer nearest to Wisconsin? I assume there is one in Chicago?
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post #6205 of 6217 Old 05-22-2020, 01:39 PM
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Can someone give me the contact info or the name of the datasat dealer nearest to Wisconsin? I assume there is one in Chicago?
Dunno about Wisconsin, but Media Designers in Chicago is a DataSat dealer. I think I've calibrated some systems for them in the past. Lou Santello is the owner.
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post #6206 of 6217 Old 05-22-2020, 01:43 PM
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It looks like checking the box for +10db for pcm sets the correct behavior for REW sweeps into channel 4. I'm sure it will work for hd audio as well, and I will post back if it doesn't. Looks like I may have to rewatch parts of some movies like Ford vs Ferrari and Terminator Dark Fate, just to experience the bass that people talked about that I sure didn't experience, lol.

Thanks for doing that. Just to be sure, when you check the +10dB PCM box the sound measurement for channel 4 is 10dB higher than unchecked?


I have read that a good movie is better the second time you watch it. I think that is true.
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post #6207 of 6217 Old 05-24-2020, 10:44 AM
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A pic is worth a thousand words...but here are some more words anyway, lol.
#2 called subs no BM and no boost refers to a sweep in channel 4 with no bass management and the +10db for pcm unchecked.
As soon as you turn on BM the sweep is 10db lower and you need to check the box for +10db for pcm. The advanced audio codecs
get decoded to pcm before bass management, eq etc. I had just previously assumed that the default +10db for dolby and dts would work for dolby truehd and atmos and dts-master and dts-x but clearly not.
Note that if you check the +10db box for pcm and don't use BM it will add an additional 10db of boost to the lfe channel (channel 4). It was awesome for the brief time I did this but not really what I want for balanced sound.
I've copied and pasted an explanation Sanjay from Datasat/ATI emailed me, I don't think he'll mind me sharing:


"
the LFE channel is supposed to be played back 10dB louder than all the other channels. This 10dB boost cannot be done in the digital domain because it would cause clipping. So the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output when the signal is in the analogue domain, after D/A conversion. Discrete bass from the LFE channel is usually combined with derived bass from other channels to create a subwoofer output. Problem is, if the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output, it will cause the discrete LFE bass to play back at its intended level BUT the derived bass from other channels would be 10dB too loud. How to avoid derived (non-LFE) bass from playing back 10dB too loud?


Before combining discrete LFE with derived bass, the level of the derived bass is dropped by 10dB. That step has been part of bass management since the LFE channel was introduced to consumer audio. Now when the 10dB boost is applied, the discrete LFE plays back at its intended level (10dB louder than other channels) and the derived bass plays back at its intended level (same level as the other channels). Dropping the level 10dB only happens during bass management, because bass from other channels is included in the subwoofer output. If bass management is not being used, then no need to do the 10dB drop (only discrete LFE is going to the sub). "
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post #6208 of 6217 Old 05-24-2020, 10:45 AM
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I have read that a good movie is better the second time you watch it. I think that is true.

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post #6209 of 6217 Old 05-24-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post



#2 called subs no BM and no boost refers to a sweep in channel 4 with no bass management and the +10db for pcm unchecked.
As soon as you turn on BM the sweep is 10db lower and you need to check the box for +10db for pcm. The advanced audio codecs
get decoded to pcm before bass management, eq etc. I had just previously assumed that the default +10db for dolby and dts would work for dolby truehd and atmos and dts-master and dts-x but clearly not.
Note that if you check the +10db box for pcm and don't use BM it will add an additional 10db of boost to the lfe channel (channel 4). It was awesome for the brief time I did this but not really what I want for balanced sound.
I've copied and pasted an explanation Sanjay from Datasat/ATI emailed me, I don't think he'll mind me sharing:


"
the LFE channel is supposed to be played back 10dB louder than all the other channels. This 10dB boost cannot be done in the digital domain because it would cause clipping. So the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output when the signal is in the analogue domain, after D/A conversion. Discrete bass from the LFE channel is usually combined with derived bass from other channels to create a subwoofer output. Problem is, if the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output, it will cause the discrete LFE bass to play back at its intended level BUT the derived bass from other channels would be 10dB too loud. How to avoid derived (non-LFE) bass from playing back 10dB too loud?


Before combining discrete LFE with derived bass, the level of the derived bass is dropped by 10dB. That step has been part of bass management since the LFE channel was introduced to consumer audio. Now when the 10dB boost is applied, the discrete LFE plays back at its intended level (10dB louder than other channels) and the derived bass plays back at its intended level (same level as the other channels). Dropping the level 10dB only happens during bass management, because bass from other channels is included in the subwoofer output. If bass management is not being used, then no need to do the 10dB drop (only discrete LFE is going to the sub). "
Sanjay nailed it.

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post #6210 of 6217 Old 05-24-2020, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post



A pic is worth a thousand words...but here are some more words anyway, lol.
#2 called subs no BM and no boost refers to a sweep in channel 4 with no bass management and the +10db for pcm unchecked.
As soon as you turn on BM the sweep is 10db lower and you need to check the box for +10db for pcm. The advanced audio codecs
get decoded to pcm before bass management, eq etc. I had just previously assumed that the default +10db for dolby and dts would work for dolby truehd and atmos and dts-master and dts-x but clearly not.
Note that if you check the +10db box for pcm and don't use BM it will add an additional 10db of boost to the lfe channel (channel 4). It was awesome for the brief time I did this but not really what I want for balanced sound.
I've copied and pasted an explanation Sanjay from Datasat/ATI emailed me, I don't think he'll mind me sharing:


"
the LFE channel is supposed to be played back 10dB louder than all the other channels. This 10dB boost cannot be done in the digital domain because it would cause clipping. So the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output when the signal is in the analogue domain, after D/A conversion. Discrete bass from the LFE channel is usually combined with derived bass from other channels to create a subwoofer output. Problem is, if the 10dB boost is applied to the subwoofer output, it will cause the discrete LFE bass to play back at its intended level BUT the derived bass from other channels would be 10dB too loud. How to avoid derived (non-LFE) bass from playing back 10dB too loud?


Before combining discrete LFE with derived bass, the level of the derived bass is dropped by 10dB. That step has been part of bass management since the LFE channel was introduced to consumer audio. Now when the 10dB boost is applied, the discrete LFE plays back at its intended level (10dB louder than other channels) and the derived bass plays back at its intended level (same level as the other channels). Dropping the level 10dB only happens during bass management, because bass from other channels is included in the subwoofer output. If bass management is not being used, then no need to do the 10dB drop (only discrete LFE is going to the sub). "
Cannot see your pic. Cannot see a link.

This is great info. Comments to follow.
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