Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
So we lose nothing converting to PCM first.
Debatable.

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so "processing" as in PrePro refers to the PCM conversion? That's the whole process? We name devices after a conversion. Well DAC's are named after a conversion process. Interesting. And cool. We should call them PrePulse's. I hate when appropriate techs don't get proper credit.
I am not sure what you are saying here. Processing can be anything. It is a generic term.

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Decoding refers to decrypting to PCM? Decode to some other format and then PCM?
Sorta.

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It would be way more efficient if DAC's & PrePulses didn't have to convert.
Depends on the codec and the devices. Conversion to PCM is not always necessary but sometimes it is preferable.

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I hear that DAC chips mastered PCM conversion so stick with what we know.
???

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I would think the best DAC would have a bunch of chips that each work natively on the codec & didn't convert.
So, you'd need multiple DACs.

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post #212 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 05:31 PM
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In the context of this discussion, PCM means raw digital audio in that the data words represent the sampled analog audio voltage at a give clock pulse.

With compressed audio formats the data word does not directly relate to the audio signal voltage. There has to be some math done to convert the data back into the original sampled voltages.

The DAC function then converts this sampled voltage from a 16-24bit data word back to an analog voltage or current.

You can't really convert compressed data directly to a continuous audio stream without doing some digital processing.

PCM audio is uncompressed. Where we lose is compressing it and then un-compressing it. (of course the ADC and DAC process is not lossless either but damn close these days)

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post #213 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Aren't all the codecs (other than DSD) PCM, anyway?
There's MQA. I wonder if it's possible to convert MQA to PCM? Or that defeats the purpose as I understand it.
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post #214 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
There's MQA. I wonder if it's possible to convert MQA to PCM? Or that defeats the purpose as I understand it.
It is PCM before and after decoding.

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post #215 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
The Oppo/Vanity/Multichannel pro Trinnov combination was developed by me
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
I hate when appropriate techs don't get proper credit.
You belong in the hall of Fame!

You have contributed to the audio world more than anybody since before stereo.
You have given us the unique ability to truly have a modular system. (To also truly have the most future proof-ish. The EQ can stay in our system longer than any other source.)
You have given us the unique ability to have a dedicated all dig EQ.
You have given us the unique ability to use any DAC we want.
You have given us the unique ability to have access to Trinnov at unheard of prices.
Even stereo got reverted with the center channel

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post #216 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Debatable.
If all a DAC understands is PCM than at some point the conversion has to made. Unless you mean who should convert it? The oppo vs someone else? But if a BD is natively PCM then it is just Decrypting?

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I am not sure what you are saying here. Processing can be anything. It is a generic term.
Just mean that what is PrePro contributing as far as audio processing (as oppose to switching, etc)? Just converting to PCM so the DAC could understand it. There’s crossover, but if all speakers are large, than the crossover is optional. Also makes sence the EQ software should handle crossovers. So the only processing it is contributing is converting to PCM.
But now you are telling me a BD and in fact everything but DSD is PCM. So the PrePro is not even contributing that. Darn! We do not even need one. (Other than being a hub & convenient & easy to use & integrates with just about every known source & building us roads…? I mean contribute to the audio chain?) Why would connect another entire component, a cable, and 2 additional connections?
(Oppo give the ability to not have a pre pro but only with analog.)
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Depends on the codec and the devices. Conversion to PCM is not always necessary…
When is it not necessary? When the DAC chip is natively DSD? That can be the only case, no? Are there other technologies other than using a chip in the first place?
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???
Why is every DAC chip PCM I mean? Are we sticking with what we know? Why have we not tried to make a CHIP that understands anything other than PCM?
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So, you'd need multiple DACs
I wish. But it turns out, if I understand you, that I really only need PCM. I can live without DSD’s. Especially if this MQA is easy to convert to PCM. There really would be no reason that I can see that we would need anything other than PCM. So I guess we are staying with what we know: PCM. Wow, so if this MQA thing works out there will be no reason for DSD.

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Last edited by CaptCapitalism; 01-18-2016 at 07:33 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #217 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
You have given us the unique ability to have access to Trinnov at unheard of prices.
I just read this article in this audio magazine that is very true for me. That the audio buying cycle is: Get a really good deal, buy other stuff to go with it, repeat. I was hoping I finally broke the cycle. Since I paid retail for the first time ever on an audio product for the Trinnov. Putting it into perspective now, the very ability to do Trinnov D Mon/Vanity is a good deal. Oh well, I guess we are in an endless cycle.

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post #218 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
Why is every DAC chip PCM I mean? Are we sticking with what we know? Why have we not tried to make a CHIP that understands anything other than PCM?
Understanding is not the issue. Most of the better DAC chips can understand both PCM and DSD today. The only truly PCM DACs are ladder-DACs which have become virtually extinct. More common are sigma-delta convertors which are, essentially, single-bit devices suitable for DSD. That means that PCM is processed to fit the SD conversion and, in a few, full conversion to DSD is implied. BTW, the same situation applies for most ADCs.

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post #219 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 08:03 PM
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Ah ha. Thanks.
If DAC's are all PCM. Are all DAC’s stereo, meaning a pair of channels?
(Although I can see how perhaps a DAC can use 2 chips & just use 1 chip per channel and somehow turn off a chip channel, thus building a DAC with dedicated chip per channel, that would cool. But even if they did what about the below issue)
If so, how do receivers sync 6 channels. In my research to use a 6 channel DAC vs wordclock/daisy chaining stereo. There’s many discussions with people having issues. Heck there are even issues with building a HTPC with multiple DAC’s. How can a receiver sync all the N number of DAC’s? They must use a word clock of some sort? Since it’s a slave to the BD, I guess it must have to reclock to sync the 6 channels.
If so, I would think we would better off using an external master clock that would seem the most reliable way to sync 6 channels.
Are there ways to determine if channels are in sync, not just levels? Even in a receiver, I’d be curious how well these n number of DAC’s are in sync. Especially if everyone else is having issues.

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)

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post #220 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 08:58 PM
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Trinnov questions that my sales rep didn't know:
If the 6 channel source, like the oppo only sends a stereo signal, will the Trinnov be aware and inform us?
For example, Netflix through the oppo is stereo when I tried, while for the same show was 5.1 through the Tivo.
It was nice to know that. My PrePro informed me before the audio even synced.
Are there other monitoring abilities that the PrePro has we might lose out on with this set up? I can't think of any.

He did say that we can toggle to different channels as sources, but need a different calibration even if 3 of the speakers are the same. Every speaker set needs a new calibration. But if so, than it WOULD be important for the Trinnov to know that the 6 channel source changed to 2 (Without user's knowledge or consent .
But why would Trinnov need another calibration for the same speaker? Unless it's because of combined SPL? Or maybe it's just an operational design flaw. To require a diff calibration. I hope so.

Although maybe the Oppo can inform us how many channels are active and automate the Trinnov to change to the stereo speaker set through macros or something.
If it is not an operational flaw I could just have the Trinnov always route channels 7 & 8 to L,R,Sub as a Matrix type deal. And 7 & 8 just won't be active until I turn off the 6 channel source & turn on the 2 channel.
I don't want to have to do 2 calibrations every time I calibrate. I happen to be playing with treatments now.

It's very cool having these virtual i/o's. Good thinking and good job Trinnov!

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)

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post #221 of 279 Old 01-18-2016, 09:37 PM
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If syncing 6 channels reliably using multiple DAC's beit in one chassis or more than 1 is really somewhat of an issue as my initial research is indicating. The Vannity/Trinnov also gives a unique ability to have a more reliable method of clocking/syncing 6 channels. We can use an external clock & a "star wiring network" The D Mon manual calls it.
And even if things are in sync now, what about later? Age, dust, humidity.

Having the ability to sync channels externally is also unique to the Vanity.

Wow. Curt, you are the gift that keeps giving

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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post #222 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
Ah ha. Thanks.
If DAC's are all PCM.
I never said that.
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Are all DAC’s stereo, meaning a pair of channels?
No.
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(Although I can see how perhaps a DAC can use 2 chips & just use 1 chip per channel and somehow turn off a chip channel, thus building a DAC with dedicated chip per channel, that would cool. But even if they did what about the below issue)
There are DAC chips come with two or more channels.
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If so, how do receivers sync 6 channels.
They use a 6 channel chip or, more likely these days, an 8 channel chip.
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In my research to use a 6 channel DAC vs wordclock/daisy chaining stereo.
What?
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How can a receiver sync all the N number of DAC’s? They must use a word clock of some sort? Since it’s a slave to the BD, I guess it must have to reclock to sync the 6 channels.
Yes, a common clock.
Quote:
If so, I would think we would better off using an external master clock that would seem the most reliable way to sync 6 channels.
Mebbe but not needed if it is all on one chip.
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Are there ways to determine if channels are in sync, not just levels? Even in a receiver, I’d be curious how well these n number of DAC’s are in sync.
Sure. How much do you have to invest the tools for this?
Quote:
Especially if everyone else is having issues.
Who is having such issues?

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post #223 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
If so, how do receivers sync 6 channels. In my research to use a 6 channel DAC vs wordclock/daisy chaining stereo. There’s many discussions with people having issues. Heck there are even issues with building a HTPC with multiple DAC’s. How can a receiver sync all the N number of DAC’s? They must use a word clock of some sort? Since it’s a slave to the BD, I guess it must have to reclock to sync the 6 channels.
If so, I would think we would better off using an external master clock that would seem the most reliable way to sync 6 channels.
Are there ways to determine if channels are in sync, not just levels? Even in a receiver, I’d be curious how well these n number of DAC’s are in sync. Especially if everyone else is having issues.
This so called channel sync issue is not an issue. Most stand alone DACs simply self clock off the incomming stream. This is the most reliable way to do it. You can also lock all the DAC clocks together, either to an external clock* or one of the multi channel input pairs. In addition some multi channel DACs even have an SRC on each input.

I run 24 channels in my HT (9 alone for triamped LCR) using three Lucid 88192 8channel DACs. (see thumbnail) These are studio grade units and have all the clocking options mentioned above. Yet I simply lock each DAC pair to the incoming AES. There are no sync issues and that means down to the sample phase.

Remember that with multichannel audio, the source is derived from a common clock. So unless your processor is of poor design there should be no phase shift between the channels. It.s not that difficult to keep the clocks all in step.

*If you do use an external clock, it must somehow be locked to the source clock.
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post #224 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
Trinnov questions that my sales rep didn't know:
If the 6 channel source, like the oppo only sends a stereo signal, will the Trinnov be aware and inform us?
For example, Netflix through the oppo is stereo when I tried, while for the same show was 5.1 through the Tivo.
It was nice to know that. My PrePro informed me before the audio even synced.
Are there other monitoring abilities that the PrePro has we might lose out on with this set up? I can't think of any.

He did say that we can toggle to different channels as sources, but need a different calibration even if 3 of the speakers are the same. Every speaker set needs a new calibration. But if so, than it WOULD be important for the Trinnov to know that the 6 channel source changed to 2 (Without user's knowledge or consent ...
If you have a 6 channel source such as the Oppo playing random formats, ie stereo of surround, the Trinnov it will process all channels regardless if some channels are muted at the source. There is no intervention required, ie TV channel jumping between 2.0 and 5.1. However, you may want to invoke a different remapping assumption as source material changes.

Once a given speaker configuration is calibrated, it is not required to re-calibrate for different channel layouts or sources. You can then configure (from the original calibration) options such as using L/R for stereo and adding the sub for surround. One can make these changes without need for a new calibration.

If multiple DACs are used, they will stay in sync from the original clock. Some deviation could happen when mixing DACs w/wo sample rate converters, such as the Benchmark, or those w re-clocking method that strays from the source, but expect it would not impact what you hear, even if used in a crossover application. Calibration addresses any level delay and polarity differences between the the DACs. Historically, more then 50% of those who have high end DACs when they purchase Trinnovs end up selling the DACs. Experiences vary. BTW all Trinnovs. including the Altitude, output the incoming/source sample rate up to the rated frequency. The Altitude does not down sample: as with all Trinnov's it does modify the original signal with 64 bit floating point processing of level, delay, compensation...

Cheers,
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post #225 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 04:38 PM
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Are all DAC’s stereo, meaning a pair of channels?
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
No
That is great news! Because even within a chip, channels can theoretically fall out of sync.
It seems the surest way to make sure channels are in sync is to use a single channel DAC chip. I wonder if pro DAC's have word clock in per channel? If not I would perhaps daisy chain.
This is the first time anyone has had an opportunity to sync externally in a non pro environment, I doubt much, if any, research has been done on pro vs con.
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Originally Posted by Glimmie;‪40781922‬
There are no sync issues and that means down to the sample phase.
How de you know? To test if 2 channels are in sync is not easy. And then there's the DAC, so even if on digital side tings are in sync, maybe not on the analog side.
Have you ever tried using a Clock Generator vs Not. Especially with all your channels.
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Calibration addresses any level delay and polarity differences between the the DACs.
So room correction compensates for out of sync channels. Good. And it is a concern since Trinnov deals with it. But it would be better if it didn't have to compensate.
I wonder if anyone has done analysis on an avg receiver if their channels are in Sync & over a period of time?
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Calibration addresses any level delay
The Trinnov software is aware if the delay is distance vs any other factor and even more than that, all the way down to the DAC meaning it's aware that the DAC is causing the delay?

In my research to use a 6 channel DAC vs wordclock/daisy chaining stereo.
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What?
I wanted to daisy chain stereo DAC's because they are so cool looking. Like that new Dave DAC. Or even the Brooklyn/Manhattan. And way more R & D is done on stereo DAC's than multi. I found many people that do this on web. They sync the volume with iRule or something using 3 * same model DAC's.
On many of these threads there are naysayers! No way that 2 DACS are in sync! they say. Those naysayers.
So it got me thinking that even within a chip it could be out of sync. So I would think we're best off word clock for every channel.
So daisy chaining might even be preferred.
Maybe there's also crosstalk. In the same chip.
I was even thinking that a negative with a system that only understand "pairs" of channels is that we are limited in a) virtual i/o 2) if I wanted inputs 1 & 8 handling R & L that would for sure eliminate crosstalk.
Besides things just go wrong somewhere along the chain. It happens.
Anyway it's an awesome accomplishment just to have this unique ability.

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Who is having such issues
The naysayers. That simply running signals into multi DAC's from the same source will not be great.
And the HTPC enthusiasts.
I was also googling a little if HTPC enthusiasts thought to create a vanity concept. I've found much of that discussion that people are having issues syncing the channels.

Does Trinnov use a multi channel chip?

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post #226 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
How de you know? To test if 2 channels are in sync is not easy. And than there's the DAC, so even if on digital side tings are in sync, maybe not on the analog side.
Have you ever tried using a Clock Generator vs Not. Especially with all your channels.
Well as a design level EE who has been working with digital audio systems in TV broadcast since the late 1980s, I think I know what I am talking about. Yes I know all about AES clock locking from the video side which is far more complex than audio only AES systems.

I have the tools to easily test any AES sync problems - both at work and home!

These ideas of channels getting out of sync inside DACs, even separate DACs is unfounded. As stated by Mr. Trinnov, different DACs from different vendors probably have different internal delays but that;'s about it.

Can you show me some some documentation that demonstrates this issue?

P.S. You do realize that the AES stream is stereo by default? Hence most DAC chips are stereo. And being that both channels are within the same stream, how the H can they get out of sync?

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post #227 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 07:04 PM
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I know all about AES clock locking from the video side which is far more complex than audio only AES systems.
I have the tools to easily test any AES sync problems - both at work and home!
So the tools check if the audio is in sync lies with the video? Interesting. So if we wanted to check if channels are in sync with each other, we would have to check each channel against the video. And if all are in sync with video then we’re good to go.
This doesn’t sound so complex… Or expensive. Can you tell what this video sync tester hardware/device/PC card is called? Can they check just a single line?
Also, you’re implying that the tester checks post DAC. Is there a way to check in the dig domain? Like simply emit 2 signals and make sure the signals are in sync.
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These ideas of channels getting out of sync inside DACs, even separate DACs is unfounded Can you show me some documentation that demonstrates this issue?
Thanks! That is great news indeed. The naysayers are unfounded. I can daisy chain these gorgeous stereo DAC’s without even syncing them.
And as for the HTPC enthusiasts, it occurred to me that they probably have a different issue. Since they don’t make cards with 4 * SPDIF (do they?), they probably are trying to install multiple 2 channel dig cards. I can see why that can be an issue because they all for sure have different clocks. Unless we get a clock into the PC or use the motherboard or something? Interesting. I wonder if anyone was successful? I was hoping someone was. I was hoping they made Pro 8 cards. AES would work great now.
I was thinking an HTPC would be (non-alt) Trinnov’s only hope of ever getting a second source.
We have a PC in our chain anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
P.S. You do realize that the AES stream is stereo by default? Hence most DAC chips are stereo. And being that both channels are within the same stream, how the H can they get out of sync?
At some point they get split to line level.

I see your point that if one uses a single chip the likelihood of being out of sync is minimal. But if I did daisy chain does that likelihood change? Also if different brand of DAC’s can introduce sync issues, the same model can age differently. And some models are handmade so there are bound to be differences. And do manufacturer’s guarantee same exact parts in all they’re models?

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post #228 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 07:24 PM
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Here's we go they do make AES 16 channel cards:

Can JRiver map BD's to non hdmi out's?

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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post #229 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
That is great news! Because even within a chip, channels can theoretically fall out of sync.
It seems the surest way to make sure channels are in sync is to use a single channel DAC chip. I wonder if pro DAC's have word clock in per channel? If not I would perhaps daisy chain.
This is the first time anyone has had an opportunity to sync externally in a non pro environment, I doubt much, if any, research has been done on pro vs con.
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That is very clever. I didn't realize this can be done with USB.
People must not realize that we're not forced to use multi channel DAC's.
I'm hoping I live with the Vanity for 5 years at least. So hoping plan b of HTPC won't have to be implemented.

So the mytek's come with wc i/o. AES. Perfect. Wouldn't I make Trinnov the master? Rather than some arbitrary channel?

Even if in 2016 I don't appreciate what a DAC brings to the table. I might in 2021.
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post #231 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
Here's we go they do make AES 16 channel cards:

Can JRiver map BD's to non hdmi out's?
Yes, the RME AES32/jRiver HTPC was included in my original design: the MC has switching between three sets of 8 channel AES ins.

My Trinnov MC setup before moving to the Altitude:

AES 1 = Oppo, 7.1 PCM playback up to 192k
AES 2 = RME AES32 (the cards in the image are what I use) from HTPC with jRiver and MediaCenter, 7.1
AES 3 = provides 4 pairs of AES for Stereo inputs, or alternatively, from the output bus of my Surround Workstation (Surround Mix), 7.1

Analog provides for up to 16 channels of analog in, in any combination. 8+8, 8+2.2+2+2, etc.

Anyone considering the D-Mon should understand it's limitations compared to the MC, and make the best choice for your specific needs. As they share the same components relating to clock, sync, converters, etc, the same compensation engine, these elements don't play a critical role in the selection.

By all means, if you have a Pro Tools workstation- the D-Mon is made for it!

Cheers,

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post #232 of 279 Old 01-19-2016, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
Are all DAC’s stereo, meaning a pair of channels?

That is great news! Because even within a chip, channels can theoretically fall out of sync.
It seems the surest way to make sure channels are in sync is to use a single channel DAC chip. I wonder if pro DAC's have word clock in per channel? If not I would perhaps daisy chain.
This is the first time anyone has had an opportunity to sync externally in a non pro environment, I doubt much, if any, research has been done on pro vs con.

How de you know? To test if 2 channels are in sync is not easy. And then there's the DAC, so even if on digital side tings are in sync, maybe not on the analog side.
Have you ever tried using a Clock Generator vs Not. Especially with all your channels.

So room correction compensates for out of sync channels. Good. And it is a concern since Trinnov deals with it. But it would be better if it didn't have to compensate.
I wonder if anyone has done analysis on an avg receiver if their channels are in Sync & over a period of time?

The Trinnov software is aware if the delay is distance vs any other factor and even more than that, all the way down to the DAC meaning it's aware that the DAC is causing the delay?

In my research to use a 6 channel DAC vs wordclock/daisy chaining stereo.

I wanted to daisy chain stereo DAC's because they are so cool looking. Like that new Dave DAC. Or even the Brooklyn/Manhattan. And way more R & D is done on stereo DAC's than multi. I found many people that do this on web. They sync the volume with iRule or something using 3 * same model DAC's.
On many of these threads there are naysayers! No way that 2 DACS are in sync! they say. Those naysayers.
So it got me thinking that even within a chip it could be out of sync. So I would think we're best off word clock for every channel.
So daisy chaining might even be preferred.
Maybe there's also crosstalk. In the same chip.
I was even thinking that a negative with a system that only understand "pairs" of channels is that we are limited in a) virtual i/o 2) if I wanted inputs 1 & 8 handling R & L that would for sure eliminate crosstalk.
Besides things just go wrong somewhere along the chain. It happens.
Anyway it's an awesome accomplishment just to have this unique ability.


The naysayers. That simply running signals into multi DAC's from the same source will not be great.
And the HTPC enthusiasts.
I was also googling a little if HTPC enthusiasts thought to create a vanity concept. I've found much of that discussion that people are having issues syncing the channels.

Does Trinnov use a multi channel chip?
Sync

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0...alclocking.asp

With all your detailed questions, perhaps it's time to go back to the Trinnov pro audio dealer and get some answers. They are very knowledgeable and can give you the low down on all kinds of stuff related to sync, etc. Let us know what you find out!


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post #233 of 279 Old 01-20-2016, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
That is very clever. I didn't realize this can be done with USB.
People must not realize that we're not forced to use multi channel DAC's.
.................................................. .........
So the mytek's come with wc i/o. AES. Perfect. Wouldn't I make Trinnov the master? Rather than some arbitrary channel?
N.B.: This requires Mytek's proprietary ASIO driver in order to sort the channels to the appropriate DACs.

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Here's we go they do make AES 16 channel cards:

Can JRiver map BD's to non hdmi out's?
I use a Lynx AES-16 card (see below) with JRiver for BluRay rips. For AC3 I use the motherboard SPDIF output through a Lexicon MC8 as I beleive the Lexicon still has the best upmixing algorithms. The Lexicon is then modified for 8 channel AES output to one of the inputs my DSP farm. Another input is the Lynx AES-16 card. The AES-16 card can be configured for AC3 output but it's easier in my setup to just use the motherboard SPDIF. There is absolutely no quality difference.

As I rip all my BluRays to a RAID, the copy protection is stripped and thus there is no problem outputting AES. However if you are playing physical BluRays with JRiver using an HDCP enabled motherboard, I'm not sure if it will allow raw AES audio out. HDCP is supposed to downrez or inhibit advanced audio codecs on unprotected digital outputs. The best place to discuss this is on the JRiver forum.
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post #235 of 279 Old 01-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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N.B.: This requires Mytek's proprietary ASIO driver in order to sort the channels to the appropriate DACs.
Yeah, I was going to ask that when I saw your config. That explains it.
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post #236 of 279 Old 01-20-2016, 10:38 AM
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So the tools check if the audio is in sync lies with the video? Interesting. So if we wanted to check if channels are in sync with each other, we would have to check each channel against the video. And if all are in sync with video then we’re good to go.
This doesn’t sound so complex… Or expensive. Can you tell what this video sync tester hardware/device/PC card is called? Can they check just a single line?
Also, you’re implying that the tester checks post DAC. Is there a way to check in the dig domain? Like simply emit 2 signals and make sure the signals are in sync.
No, video has nothing to do with it. I was just pointing out I have deep experience with AES from a video perspective which involves even more complex clocking chains. You asked how I know there are not sync issues in your proposed setup. That's how I know.

What I use at home to check phase between channels is a Tektronix 764 audio scope. This does AES and analog. At work we have more modern tools. You can do the same thing on the analog side at home with any cheap scope and AES audio oscillator, REW will do fine. Just look at an XY display of the two audio channels. If in phase there will be a hard 45degree line. This is the classic way to measure phase shift in audio - since the dawn of stereo.

Quote:
Thanks! That is great news indeed. The naysayers are unfounded. I can daisy chain these gorgeous stereo DAC’s without even syncing them.
And as for the HTPC enthusiasts, it occurred to me that they probably have a different issue. Since they don’t make cards with 4 * SPDIF (do they?), they probably are trying to install multiple 2 channel dig cards. I can see why that can be an issue because they all for sure have different clocks. Unless we get a clock into the PC or use the motherboard or something? Interesting. I wonder if anyone was successful? I was hoping someone was. I was hoping they made Pro 8 cards. AES would work great now.
I was thinking an HTPC would be (non-alt) Trinnov’s only hope of ever getting a second source.
We have a PC in our chain anyway.

At some point they get split to line level.

I see your point that if one uses a single chip the likelihood of being out of sync is minimal. But if I did daisy chain does that likelihood change? Also if different brand of DAC’s can introduce sync issues, the same model can age differently. And some models are handmade so there are bound to be differences. And do manufacturer’s guarantee same exact parts in all they’re models?
Look, you are making this whole thing way too complicated. No need to worry about these issues you bring up. There are countless systems set up as described in the various threads above. They all work flawlessly. If you are going the Trinnov route, just follow Curt's advice and use it's internal DACs. I'm confident they are quite good. If you must use external DACs, then do so but there is no need to worry about clocking. Just let each DAC unit lock to the incoming stream. Using external clocks in this scenario is not only unnecessary but invites additional problems.
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post #237 of 279 Old 01-20-2016, 03:29 PM
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With all your detailed questions
I feel like I'm in a candy store.
I can actually build my dream system now. I had so many questions.

It's my dream system because there is no part that can't be replaced by the best (for the budget).
Because in any particular field there is what I call: "The person who totally geeked out." Douglas Adams refers to them as the phone cleaners.
So for example I wanted to know the best way to clean a phone, there is someone somewhere who wrote his PHD on that very topic. The best binoculars for bird watchers. Whatever.
The world has to operate this way. Because if someone somewhere didn't geek out we would not have best possible way to clean phones, get the best amp, etc.
And, yes Douglas, we also probably die of bacteria poising.

For now Trinnov is a very respectable room correction. Great. But if the US government decides to invest in RC. Watch out!
I want every piece modular so at any given time I can replace. I don’t want to be forced to have a piece of equipment do 2 tasks because it’s great at 1 of them.
I even contacted JL Audio to help me figure out a way to use their crossovers for multi channel.

That's why I'm blown away by realizing that there is no need to get the best PreAmp.
As far as I can tell the true dig audio chain is quite different than I thought:
PCM Stream -> EQ/Crossover -> DAC.

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… dealer …They are very knowledgeable
But my limit is 3 questions.
In my experience all I have is 3 questions. Dealers get annoyed after about 3. I must have asked 10+ by now.

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post #238 of 279 Old 01-25-2016, 09:09 PM
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My D-Mon 6 Came!
I feel like I have cutting edge. Like it just came out. The Serial # is around 70.
Very heavy. About 5 * the weight of my Krell S-1200.
My Vanity should come this week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Historically, more then 50% of those who have high end DACs when they purchase Trinnovs end up selling the DACs.
Thank you very much for explaining to us/me about the Trinnov DAC's.
You convinced this user. In fact, out of all the Pre Pro I've ever purchased & discussed with Manufacturers, I feel the Trinnov DAC was designed with the most care.

My sales guy actually seemed insulted that I wanted to use a DAC. And even found a pro review from a posh audiophile site called 6Moons on its sufficiency.

I was hoping I could, I really wanted 3 Brooklyn DAC’s. Really wanted to take advantage of its unique ability to use an external DAC. And wordclocking sounded like a fun thing to try. Especially I since found this generator called Big Ben Ha! I should wordclock just for that! But intellectually, I’ve concluded Curt’s right.

So we eliminate DAC from the list of advantages.

So all we gain with the D Mon vs. Altitude is AES vs HDMI. And cheaper. Not its ability to use an external DAC. And the AES is weird with that double RCA thing and the Oppo Mod.
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Anyone considering the D-Mon should understand it's limitations compared to the MC.
Getting this up & running is taking a lot of effort.
This custom cable. Even curt got involved. Sorry about that.
My CEDIA dealer forwarded my specs to my cable co. Boy this turned into a whole thing. The owner himself called curt & me.
What an awesome experience though. I schmoozed with him for a while more than once. He will custom it for me himself. So I'm not as nervous with this weird cable. And this cable will cost more than the oppo.

Anyway the cable company owner thought it made no sense. The very first thing he said was: RCA is 55 ohms.
I told him I said that!
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This guy in gear lutz claimed RCA is really more like 50 ohms… if BNC then you have 75 ohms on coaxial. My point is that RCA influences & it implies no way we can get 110 ohms from RCA.
I was hoping 2 * 55 = 110 ohms…
JVB insists it will be 110ohms if the specs are followed - and we do plan on following.

He also said that the DB25 terminators can accommodate up to 5mm & his/audiophile cables are 8.

Also,we lose out on monitoring abilities that are available in Pre Pro’s that I think can’t be worked around.
Ironically, D-Mons have “Monitoring Processor” on their faceplates. As I understand it, if source changes to stereo oppo will mute the channels. Oppo in the RS232 codes only has PCM as audio type, not 2.0 PCM, nor 6, so no way to automate the Trinnov to not process the muted channel. I don’t know if it is a big deal. Like what should we worry about? That noise might come out of the muted channels? Curt mentioned there might other concerns if stereo vs multi. I hope I find a way to automate when I play around with the Demon. Maybe it can “monitor” muted channels.

The only other thing I would like to monitor is the sample rate. Main reason I wanted a DAC in the first place. From the 2 Demon manuals I read it doesn’t look like it monitors that either. Does the altitude display sample rate on BD's or other formats?
It does monitor loudness. Which is critical for me, but I’ve used a method for 10+ years that has been working perfect: I always get a power cond. with ampmeter. When my ampmeter says 10 AMPS, I know I’m too loud.

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post #239 of 279 Old 01-25-2016, 11:32 PM
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I use a Lynx AES-16 card (see below) with JRiver for BluRay rips.
I can never watch the same movie twice. That’s why HTPC doesn’t work for me. What am going to do rip to watch it once? And no one is going to beat Tivo’s GUI. Not for lack of trying, just Tivo has like so many patents. And Tivo can monitor very well. It can monitor all the meta data I can ever need. If anything the Tivo devices should be called Media Monitoring Processor.

I recently researched what is the most technically advance & audiophile like BD player. because this hobby is fun that way.
So we got these oppo based ones. That wasn’t doing it for me. So you supe up the PSU? That doesn’t sound advanced… anyway, every manufacturer I spoke to uses switching on dig in their PrePro’s so unsure what gain there is in dig PSU in the first place? Although Baetis sounded interesting & they have a good rep. But they also require to rip to take advantage of their setup when I spoke to them.
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For AC3 I use the motherboard SPDIF output
That’s what Baetis does. The motherboard thing.
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
through a Lexicon MC8 as I beleive the Lexicon still has the best upmixing algorithms.
So you go through an entire extra device just to upmix?
What about downmixing? I really need that. When most my system was destroyed in Sandy I had to start over I wanted to try & do stereo. Put all my budget into a really nice pair instead of 5 OK ones. I had my $12K Krell downmix & my Oppo. Neither was great. Oppo was a little better. The clarity introduced in the mono center could not be duplicated with the stereo representation. Weird. Gave up on that. Wonder how audiophiles watch on their stereo systems? How they downmix 7.1?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
JRiver …I'm not sure if it will allow raw AES audio out.
Figured. I have the same problem with iTune music videos. Apparently JRiver & iTunes music videos have issues. iTune player does not give bit perfect. Does it on the Mac? Apple TV resamples to 48 no matter what. I can’t for the life of me figure out how to audiophile up music videos to maybe peek my kids interests more. I was thinking maybe syncing 2 sources for video & music. But that sounds like too much work.
I’m sure I can google a JRiver hack, but I don’t want to teach my kids that.
I’m not telling anyone about the oppo mod.
Funny I am doing 2 things I thought I would never do: mod & pro equipment. They were just an arbitrary filters. Just didn’t want to research endless equipment. But I have been in this Pre Pro limbo since I bought my D/A/D/A Audyssey EQ. My dealer let me borrow ARC, it had its benefits, but for movies it didn't touch Audyssey. The immersive-ness, is just wow. I could have bought an Audyssey chip Pre Pro and avoid the extra conversions. And was seriously thinking of the NAD stuff. But wanted to move on from Audyssey.
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post #240 of 279 Old 01-25-2016, 11:51 PM
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Advise please:
What’s the best way to get stereo in when I have HDMI or SPDIF option? I.E. Apple TV. I’m finally getting my kids interested in audio stuff with music videos, It’s actually very nice. We have many family nights watching music videos.

Which is more preferable:
  1. HDMI Source -> Lumagen VP/switcher -> Oppo -> Trinnov
  2. Source -> Converter -> Trinnov

Don’t know if it makes a difference, the VP strips out the video and sends a black pic (How audiophile-ness of them).
I just got on Ebay for $50 a respectable converter in its day: The M Audio CO3:


Questioning if transformer is better than routing into 2 devices?

If the converter is more efficient I would probably get this:

...and THIS monitors sample rates

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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