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post #31 of 1412 Old 01-31-2014, 02:21 PM
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Trinnov processing and 32 channels of output? Just a guess. You could do a big, active system.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #32 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post




From the output labels, looks like it has dedicated jacks for the standard 7-speaker layout and 4 heights. There are 2 dual-purpose jacks where the user has to choose between left & right wide speakers OR centre height + VOG. The two wides are for Neo:X while the latter two complete the Auro layout.

Hence one can connect 13 speakers and two subs. But it is not 13.1 Auro-3D since there are no Rbh/Lbh (Back Height). Using all 13 outputs there are two combinations to pick:
  1. Auro 9.1 with Neo:X 11.1 (using wides)
  2. Auro 11.1 with Neo:X 9.1 (using VOG and Center Height)

For me, option 1 would be my choice, concerns about content availability aside. VOG is difficult to implement unless the ceiling is very high. Center Height seems even more optional in a home environment.

Question: can Auro and Neo:X be used simultaneously to take full advantage of both output options?

This is a very interesting device, but still three times the asking price I would feel comfortable with.wink.gif

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post #33 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 01:58 AM
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The home 13.1 layout is not the same as commercial.

Easier to think of home as Auro 11.1 + RB and LB

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post #34 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 10:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Does anyone happen to know what the price is for the Barco AP24-3D cinema processor?


Hi Lon,

Under 30.
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post #35 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

But it is not 13.1 Auro-3D since there are no Rbh/Lbh (Back Height).
Auro 3D recently changed its name to Auro 11.1: http://www.barco.com/en/auro11-1

The theatrical implementation of Auro 11.1 is ...11.1 channels. So no surround-back channels and no back height channels. The home version add 2 surround-back outputs (which the theatrical version aspires to as well), making it 13.1. There are no additional height channels, so I'm not sure where you got the Rbh/Lbh idea from.

What remains to be seen is whether Auro encoded content on Blu-ray will be 13.1 channels. The two music titles released so far have been 9.1 channels. Theatrical mixes so far have been 11.1 channels.

So the only thing currently "13.1" about Auro is the speaker layout of the consumer implementation. Let's not confuse number of speakers used for playback with the number of channels in the source material.

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post #36 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Auro 3D recently changed its name to Auro 11.1: http://www.barco.com/en/auro11-1

The theatrical implementation of Auro 11.1 is ...11.1 channels. So no surround-back channels and no back height channels. The home version add 2 surround-back outputs (which the theatrical version aspires to as well), making it 13.1. There are no additional height channels, so I'm not sure where you got the Rbh/Lbh idea from.

What remains to be seen is whether Auro encoded content on Blu-ray will be 13.1 channels. The two music titles released so far have been 9.1 channels. Theatrical mixes so far have been 11.1 channels.

So the only thing currently "13.1" about Auro is the speaker layout of the consumer implementation. Let's not confuse number of speakers used for playback with the number of channels in the source material.

I got this from p5 here:
Auro-3D_v3.pdf 125k .pdf file

To be correct:
Auro-3D 12.1 is described as Auro-3D 11.1 plus a center back surround
Auro-3D 13.1 is Auro-3D 12.1 plus a center back height surround.

How is that for confusion? biggrin.gif

Not sure how old the info is but the pdf is recent.

Nobody knows whether Auro-3D and Neo:X can be applied simultaneously? If not, the LS10 is a 11.1 processor, not 13.1.

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post #37 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 11:56 AM
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How does the Barco differ from the Datasat?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #38 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Not sure how old the info is but the pdf is recent.
According to a Datasat engineer, who posted recently in an AVS thread, the information about a single surround-back channel and back height channel is outdated. The number of height speakers is going to stay the same, it is only the addition of 2 surround-back channels that makes it 13.1.
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Nobody knows whether Auro-3D and Neo:X can be applied simultaneously?
Can PLIIz and Neo:X be applied simultaneously?

Sanjay
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post #39 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:17 PM
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Don't confuse Auro with Barco. Barco is a licensee of Auro Technology for commercial cinema and not related at all to the consumer products.

None of the commercial white papers exactly apply to residential - hopefully Datasat (in their position as first to market in residential) will have a consumer white paper ready by ISE.

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post #40 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How does the Barco differ from the Datasat?
Barco is a projector manufacturer that is in charge of implementing Auro in commercial cinemas.

When DTS sold off their commercial cinema arm, it was re-named Datasat.

Sanjay
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post #41 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How does the Barco differ from the Datasat?

No Dolby decoding or dts post processing options offset by the inclusion of the commercial upmixer and 24 channels as standard. The upmixer will take a 7.1 source up to commercial spec 13.1 which is nice.

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post #42 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

According to a Datasat engineer, who posted recently in an AVS thread, the information about a single surround-back channel and back height channel is outdated. The number of height speakers is going to stay the same, it is only the addition of 2 surround-back channels that makes it 13.1.

Thanks. It would be nice to have this confirmed by Auro-3D staff though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Can PLIIz and Neo:X be applied simultaneously?
Not to my knowledge, but it's not entirely the same thing since Neo:X speaker layout can be described as PLIIz plus wides. Hence there would be no point in mixing them. Both Auro-3D and Neo:X have something that the other doesn't. Surround Height vs Wides. So it would make sense to apply, say Neo:X 9.1 using Wides with Auro-3D 9.1 using four Heights...

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post #43 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Not to my knowledge...
Then same with Auro and anything else (surround processing).

Sanjay
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post #44 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Nobody knows whether Auro-3D and Neo:X can be applied simultaneously? If not, the LS10 is a 11.1 processor, not 13.1.

My expectation would be that a production model LS10 equipped with HDMI 2.0 inputs could advertise a 13.2 EDID, e.g, 7.2 Standard + 2x Front Wide + 4x Height speakers, allowing an HDMI 2.0 equipped external "player" to up|down mix, remap, or render content into a 'compatible' 15 channel LPCM audio stream which would not need further post processing by the LS10. Perhaps a future DTS-UHD player...?!
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post #45 of 1412 Old 02-02-2014, 03:32 PM
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I have to correct myself, come to think of it. Because 7.1 plus full blown Auro-3D 11.1 (including VOG and Center height) ads up to 13.1.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #46 of 1412 Old 02-04-2014, 09:35 AM
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Is hdmi 1.4 to 2.0 thought to be firmware upgradeable or a whole new device? The cables are the same as i understand it.

Hdmi bothers me the most about dumping massive cash on processors...

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post #47 of 1412 Old 02-04-2014, 10:03 AM
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Is hdmi 1.4 to 2.0 thought to be firmware upgradeable or a whole new device? The cables are the same as i understand it.

Hdmi bothers me the most about dumping massive cash on processors...

It's my understanding it's not upgradable via firmware if Emotiva's XMC-1 is anything to go by. They were going to leave machined openings to receive HDMI 2.0 later. But in the end, they decided to delay the XMC-1 and add 2.0 from the start.

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post #48 of 1412 Old 02-04-2014, 10:04 AM
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I thought it handy to link to the product page:

http://www.datasatdigital.com/consumer/products/datasat-ls10-processor.php

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post #49 of 1412 Old 02-05-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Is hdmi 1.4 to 2.0 thought to be firmware upgradeable or a whole new device? The cables are the same as i understand it. Hdmi bothers me the most about dumping massive cash on processors...
It's my understanding it's not upgradable via firmware if Emotiva's XMC-1 is anything to go by. They were going to leave machined openings to receive HDMI 2.0 later. But in the end, they decided to delay the XMC-1 and add 2.0 from the start.

I think it depends on the speed of the in-place HDMI 1.4 chipset. Newer AVRs probably ship with HDMI chipsets fast enough to support some HDMI 2.0 features, even if they are currently only firmwared to HDMI 1.4. I saw this quote (link) about the LS10:

"At the rear there are 8 HDMI inputs and 2 outputs, which are currently Version 1.4 but will be upgraded to Version 2.0 once it has been finalised."

Of course, it's not unambiguously clear whether or not this means the upgrade will be "firmware only"...!?
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post #50 of 1412 Old 02-05-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post


I think it depends on the speed of the in-place HDMI 1.4 chipset. Newer AVRs probably ship with HDMI chipsets fast enough to support some HDMI 2.0 features, even if they are currently only firmwared to HDMI 1.4. I saw this quote (link) about the LS10:
 
"At the rear there are 8 HDMI inputs and 2 outputs, which are currently Version 1.4 but will be upgraded to Version 2.0 once it has been finalised."

Of course, it's not unambiguously clear whether or not this means the upgrade will be "firmware only"...!?
_

 

 

I think the bigger problem is HDCP 2.2.

 

You're going to need HDMI 2.0 to support HDCP 2.2 and HDCP 2.2 is necessary to support 4K media from the studios be it the down load scheme that Sony uses or something like it or a 4K blu-ray format sometime in the future.

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post #51 of 1412 Old 02-05-2014, 04:55 PM
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I think the bigger problem is HDCP 2.2.

You're going to need HDMI 2.0 to support HDCP 2.2 and HDCP 2.2 is necessary to support 4K media from the studios be it the down load scheme that Sony uses or something like it or a 4K blu-ray format sometime in the future.

If you adopt too early to new hdmi tech, you get faulty equipment... Adopt too late and you get obsolete equipment.

Did i mention hdmi is annoying?

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post #52 of 1412 Old 02-05-2014, 05:43 PM
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If you adopt too early to new hdmi tech, you get faulty equipment... Adopt too late and you get obsolete equipment.

Did i mention hdmi is annoying?

 

Not disagreeing but in this case HDCP 2.2 is the demon I think.  Since 28 AWG RedMere came about, I don't think HDMI is too bad to work with as a connector though.

 

When you get in the price range of the LS10, it's nice to have some kind of assurance that the HDMI can be upgraded in the future.

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post #53 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 04:33 AM
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A wee video about the LS10 and Auro

http://youtu.be/AyBmwftSLqM
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post #54 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

A wee video about the LS10 and Auro

http://youtu.be/AyBmwftSLqM

Very informative video. I'm sold on the technology and it looks to be a promising format. It's great that they can cloak it in the standard 5.1 stream Blu Ray spec. That should facilitate it's implementation and acceptance in the studios greatly. But, as mentioned in the video, the soundtrack has to be encoded in Auro to get the benefit of the technology... So as usual, the technology is here but we have to wait for content.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #55 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Not disagreeing but in this case HDCP 2.2 is the demon I think.  Since 28 AWG RedMere came about, I don't think HDMI is too bad to work with as a connector though.

When you get in the price range of the LS10, it's nice to have some kind of assurance that the HDMI can be upgraded in the future.

This has been a core problem for a lot of the "high end" including classe, theta, etc. All the higher priced manufacterers of premium product MUST have lost potential customers to this issue. Their ability to "keep up" has hindered the high end during the recession I would imagine.

What is surprising in all of this is how well Oppo's products have been in the midst of all of this. Great quality, great reputation, great price points... They took the industry by surprise I would imagine.

A processor made by Oppo would be a serious threat to all other vendors I would imagine. Almost certainly a win for consumers if they can use ESS dacs and essentially build a Datasat-like device (no need to even describe the theoretical device except to say that datasat's featureset is basically the reference standard imo).

I am very glad that datasat didnt put any fluff into their device such as digital content, a radio, and other nonsense that is in the typical AVR. I hope future manufacturers will continue in that model.
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post #56 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Very informative video. I'm sold on the technology and it looks to be a promising format. It's great that they can cloak it in the standard 5.1 stream Blu Ray spec. That should facilitate it's implementation and acceptance in the studios greatly. But, as mentioned in the video, the soundtrack has to be encoded in Auro to get the benefit of the technology... So as usual, the technology is here but we have to wait for content.

Don't forget that the Datasat units with Auro3D on them will also have the Auro3D upmixer. Whilst the abilities of the upmixing are yet to be heard/tested, upmixing is all Neo:X and PLIIz are doing and were ever designed to do, with no dedicated discrete content for either of those formats even planned.
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post #57 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 06:40 AM
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Don't forget that the Datasat units with Auro3D on them will also have the Auro3D upmixer. Whilst the abilities of the upmixing are yet to be heard/tested, upmixing is all Neo:X and PLIIz are doing and were ever designed to do, with no dedicated discrete content for either of those formats even planned.

Good point but that simply makes Auro, on a non-Auro encoded Blu Ray, no better than PL IIz or Neo X. You/re right. We'll have to see how it sounds. We may be 1-2 years out (or more) to have most new releases having an Auro track.

I recall when DTS came to Laser Disc but I simply can't recall how long the implementation was until we saw it on a lot of disc releases.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #58 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 06:43 AM
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Do you think the Datasat is overkill if just using it for 7.1?
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post #59 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 06:47 AM
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Do you think the Datasat is overkill if just using it for 7.1?

Depends on your wallet. The value is the excellent design and components of the SSP itself and DIRAC Live. It think it is the best SSP of all for a reference set up. The LS-10 would likely give you very close performance with the PEQ implemented.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #60 of 1412 Old 02-06-2014, 07:07 AM
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I have themTrinnov mc8, what do you think of the mc8 together with the LS10 unit
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