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post #4531 of 9123 Old 06-29-2018, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have tried turning off dynamic auto lip-sync on my Marantz AV8802a (I have no video processing enabled; only passing through video). And it is close to mission impossible to get the video and audio in perfect sync; difference betweeen 23.976Hz, 24Hz. If I enable auto lip-sync everything is always perfect (we all have different ideas of perfect here; my wife can not see the difference when I complain - more or less regardless how I set up the audio delay manually or automatically).

I'm not saying the Trinnov Altitude is bad; it is the best thing I've ever heard! But for me this is such big problem that I have halted my purchase until this is fixed (or I know it is not a problem). I'm very disappointed by this - money is ready.... and I just can not go through with the purchase because I know this will be a potential hassle that will annoy me. Currently no information exists how this works on Trinnov (besides auto lip-sync is not supported), but if it passes through the delay from display device to the source everything is fine (the audio processing time is close to nothing and you will never notice if there is 1-2ms delay because of audio processing). I might ask to borrow an Altitude home for a few days from my dealer to review for myself. I really want this to work - it is my dream surround processor (that is why I try to do research up front and ask the right questions before buying).

Edit:
One question for the people out there with Altitude, is it possible to send audio out to TV at the same time as you have the audio from Trinnov? This simplifies the manual sync process; you just play video with mainly voice (speaking) on the audio - and adjust delay until you get no echo.
In all the conversations on this this thread, I don't think there has been mentioned of lip sync. So I can't imagine there is deep issue.

Do you use a Radiance?
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post #4532 of 9123 Old 06-29-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Honestly, I do not know yet. This sub set up is Adam's design. I know he likes QSC Q-SYS but perhaps we'll use individual Trinnov outputs or group the subs (4 Wisdom, $ Seaton). Perhaps Adam (@adampelz) will chime in...


Hope all's well! Love your build!
I like your sub layout, it seems similar to what I’m doing (Seaton F18’s built into the side walls opposit the MLP and two stacks of 4 F18’s behind the screen 1/4-1/3 in from the side wall). This gives you a lot of bass management options with the Trinnov (and possibly additional boxes) which can be reconfigured electronically. Conventional Wisdom would group them on one channel with a external box setting individual delays and possible some PEQ, then applying FIT’s like DIRAC to the group. There are other schools of thought that I might try first (knowing I can fall back to the CW approach if it sounds better). My first thought was to was to group the 2 side subs as an optimized channel and run only the surround,Tops,and VOG bass through them with no LFE. Then group front stacked subs as an optimized channel with the front sound stage crossed over (L,C,R, FLH,CH,FRH,Wides) and the LFE. Then I read an approach used by Audio Execellance (see attached).
They separate out the front sound stage low frequencies from the LFE (claiming time and phase coherence issues be tween the LFE and Front Sound stage bass). The Trinnov and the Alcons CRMS’ (used for my L,C,R) give me an option to address this. The CRMS is bi-amped with it 15” LF section driven by 750 watts (Sentinal 3). I can crossover the LW,LFH into the L, CH into C, RW,RFH into R. The LCR’s can be driven full range or crossed over to the front Seatons below 40HZ where given the wavelengths any cohearance issues (if they actually do exist) will be minimized. It should be fun trying the different options. The articles are attached:
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post #4533 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 06:47 AM
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Quck question -- has anyone converted an Altitude 32 from 240v to 120v? It looks like the Altitude 16 is universal voltage but the Altitude 32 is not. Assuming the voltage change would need to be sent back to Trinnov and probably $ pricey??

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post #4534 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 12:06 PM
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Trying to setup Roon with Altutude, I set input connectors in Setup as Roon Ready, but Trinnov does not show up any where in Roon, I must be missing a step somewhere.
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post #4535 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Trying to setup Roon with Altutude, I set input connectors in Setup as Roon Ready, but Trinnov does not show up any where in Roon, I must be missing a step somewhere.
Are you sure your Altitude and Roon-devices are working on the same network ?

Quote:
The Roon Ready source is directly available on the main page of the user interface. Directing a song to be played on your Altitude from any Roon controller will automatically select the Roon source on the Altitude as shown on the screenshot below. Note that you can also control the volume of the Altitude from the same Roon controller application.
This should be plug and play; make sure to define maximum volum so you don't end up with +20dB for Roon.

A general good thing could be to restart Altitude after enabling Roon, and try again if check if Roon sees the Altitude.

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post #4536 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Trying to setup Roon with Altutude, I set input connectors in Setup as Roon Ready, but Trinnov does not show up any where in Roon, I must be missing a step somewhere.
Have you activated the Altitude as player in the roon core?
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post #4537 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 01:00 PM
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It’s very odd seems Roon only see’s my Sono’s devices on network. Not sure what is going on so not altitude issue
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post #4538 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 01:56 PM
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I guess I just assumed incorectly that the jblsdp75 was Roon ready like it’s cousin the Altitude but now I’m not so sure.
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post #4539 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
I guess I just assumed incorectly that the jblsdp75 was Roon ready like it’s cousin the Altitude but now I’m not so sure.
Is there a pre-defined source input labeled Roon?

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post #4540 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:14 PM
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There May have been but I uploaded all the presets from my altitude to jbl so it would have been overwritten, I did go into settings and I selected under input connectors Roon ready, so not sure, in any event it should be the same I would think.
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post #4541 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
There May have been but I uploaded all the presets from my altitude to jbl so it would have been overwritten, I did go into settings and I selected under input connectors Roon ready, so not sure, in any event it should be the same I would think.

By selecting ROON on the SDP75 your enabling the RAAT transport protocol, the only other thing you should have to do is on the Roon Client goto Settings->Audio and click enable next to the SDP75 (or Trinnov) however it is named.



Chances are the RAAT (Roon Advanced Audio Transport) is bound to the Mac address of your Altitude 32 so it now needs to be bound to the new MAC address of your JBL SDP-75

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post #4542 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
One epic failure from Trinnov is the missing HDMI dynamic auto lip-sync (which is part of HDMI 2.0).
This means you have to manually adjust delay according to processing time of the video-processor (or TV/projector) according to 720p, 1080i, 1080p, UHD. In addition processing time will differ between 8bit, 10bit and 12bit; in addition you have the extra dimension regarding 4:2:0; 4:2:2, 4:4:4

This is a mess

That is 1024 different combinations of delay-settings.... WTF?! Even cheap Denon-receivers have this included.
In addition you have blu-rays starting video stream before or after audio stream (5 to 150ms I have seen samples of in my archive).



Edit:
People are different and some need 50-100ms before they notice the mismatch between audio and video; I can start noticing something is off already at 5ms; at 10ms it is difficult to watch; at 15ms delay it is unwatchable.

But Trinnov; PLEASE implement full support for dynamic auto lip-sync according to HDMI 2.0 specifications; and I will buy an Altitude16 or 32! This indicates you need to report delay from display in addition to audio back to source via EDID (I have seen some just reporting back audio-delay on receivers).
Are you familiar with how HDMI auto-lipsync works and how it's virtually impossible for the display device (if it even supports lip-sync) to send back an exact delay number?

Without true HDMI AV timestamp syncing, content with inconsistent/incorrect syncing is the main issue. Even the same movie can have different delay values throughout.

I just try to find a delay that's a good compromise for most content. IMHO, the best thing to do is try really hard not to focus on it. I used to be ultra-sensitive to sync issues, now I might notice it once every other movie.

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post #4543 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:28 PM
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Neither altitude nor jbl75 show up
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post #4544 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Are you familiar with how HDMI auto-lipsync works and how it's virtually impossible for the display device (if it even supports lip-sync) to send back an exact delay number?

Without true HDMI AV timestamp syncing, content with inconsistent/incorrect syncing is the main issue. Even the same movie can have different delay values throughout.

I just try to find a delay that's a good compromise for most content. IMHO, the best thing to do is try really hard not to pay attention to it. I used to be ultra-sensitive to it, now I might notice it once or twice every other movie.
My LG OLED 2017-model TV reports back processing time very accurate actually. Absolutely everything is in sync here (not only in sync, but in perfect sync); on all devices. And yes; I have a fairly good understanding on how it works.

Edit:
And yes, it happens some of the low quality channels from my cable box is going off-sync, bad that is broadcast issue. Also struggle with Amazon Prime of Apple TV 4K if I enable video output according to source (but that is buggy Amazon Prime app).

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Last edited by Berland; 06-30-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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post #4545 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Neither altitude nor jbl75 show up

Things to try


Restart Roon (server)


Set a static IP address on the SDP-75 instead of using DHCP


Try pinging the SDP-75

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post #4546 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
My LG OLED 2017-model TV reports back processing time very accurate actually. Absolutely everything is in sync here (not only in sync, but in perfect sync); on all devices. And yes; I have a fairly good understanding on how it works.
You remain focused on your anecdotal experience. You might want to read up on why auto-lipsync is not a real solution.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/opinion...t-wont-go-away

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post #4547 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
You remain focused on your anecdotal experience. You might want to read up on why auto-lipsync is not a real solution.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/opinion...t-wont-go-away
I have seen this before. But I have to base it on my own experience - if I enable auto lip-sync on my Marantz AV8802a; everything is perfect (with a few exceptions of bad broadcast and buggy apps on Apple TV 4K). If I disable this option it is a mess; I'm actually unable to get close to what the auto lip-sync is doing manually. I can get in the neighborhood, but the auto lip-sync is always better. Besides; I want this as an option you can turn on/off (setting for each input). If you love adjusting this manually; I won't stop you. I just know my life now is much easier compared to when I had to do this manually. I don't want to go back to the manual process again; especially not on such a pricy device.

Edit:
I have never experienced any "pops" or similar in audio. This is usually applied during startup of a new HDMI stream (that is how it was ment to work from the auto lip-sync introduced with HDMI 1.3; the dynamic one continuously sends feedback to source; it is not handled by the surround receiver; it is handled by the source device sending out audio and video stream via HDMI. The surround processor should just report back delay of display device and its own delay via EDID info to source-device. This works very well. Actually; if the Altitude would just repeat back the reported display delay without caring about its own delay - that would work fine. The main delay is from the device; surround processor delay you can in most cases just ignore; it is to little unless you increase buffer (1024 samples will lead to 21ms audio delay for 48kHz by the way).

Edit2:
Actually your link agrees with my findings It is just a bit old and outdated.

HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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Last edited by Berland; 06-30-2018 at 03:16 PM.
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post #4548 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have seen this before. But I have to base it on my own experience - if I enable auto lip-sync on my Marantz AV8802a; everything is perfect (with a few exceptions of bad broadcast and buggy apps on Apple TV 4K). If I disable this option it is a mess; I'm actually unable to get close to what the auto lip-sync is doing manually. I can get in the neighborhood, but the auto lip-sync is always better. Besides; I want this as an option you can turn on/off (setting for each input). If you love adjusting this manually; I won't stop you. I just know my life now is much easier compared to when I had to do this manually. I don't want to go back to the manual process again; especially not on such a pricy device.

Edit:
I have never experienced any "pops" or similar in audio. This is usually applied during startup of a new HDMI stream (that is how it was ment to work from the auto lip-sync introduced with HDMI 1.3; the dynamic one continuously sends feedback to source; it is not handled by the surround receiver; it is handled by the source device sending out audio and video stream via HDMI. The surround processor should just report back delay of display device and its own delay via EDID info to source-device. This works very well. Actually; if the Altitude would just repeat back the reported display delay without caring about its own delay - that would work fine. The main delay is from the device; surround processor delay you can in most cases just ignore; it is to little unless you increase buffer (1024 samples will lead to 21ms audio delay for 48kHz by the way).

Edit2:
Actually your link agrees with my findings It is just a bit old and outdated.
You're missing the forest for the trees. It's the content that's the main problem. No auto-lip sync, even if it was done properly (which it's not) and dynamically adjusts for calibration and other settings, will account for that. Most TVs don't even support it.

You should stick with your Marantz. Almost all of the higher end processors/receivers do not support auto-lip sync. I wonder why

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post #4549 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Things to try


Restart Roon (server)


Set a static IP address on the SDP-75 instead of using DHCP


Try pinging the SDP-75
Thanks for assisting Leslie but nothing worked, I did notice Alt32 showed up as being directly connected to PC so very odd
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post #4550 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
You're missing the forest for the trees. It's the content that's the main problem. No auto-lip sync, even if it was done properly (which it's not) and dynamically adjusts for calibration and other settings, will account for that. Most TVs don't even support it.

You should stick with your Marantz. Almost all of the higher end processors/receivers do not support auto-lip sync. I wonder why
There are some clear indications Trinnov will support this. On questions regarding if auto lip-sync was supported; they stated "not yet". I really don't get why you see it as a problem that I request this and see it as a problem. It will make the Altitude an even better device. So according to you; I'm not worthy of the great Altitude if I can not live with setting audio delays manually; and you think I'm the one with issues here?

HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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post #4551 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Thanks for assisting Leslie but nothing worked, I did notice Alt32 showed up as being directly connected to PC so very odd

And you definitely have your Lan cable connected to the Motherboard Lan Port and not the twin RJ45's

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post #4552 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
So according to you; I'm not worthy of the great Altitude if I can not live with setting audio delays manually; and you think I'm the one with issues here?
No, I never said anything about being unworthy, just pointing out that only the mass-market products support the (so far pretty useless) feature you require.

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post #4553 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 05:46 PM
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No, I never said anything about being unworthy, just pointing out that only the mass-market products support the (so far pretty useless) feature you require.
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Also, how big a screen are you moving to? And what size was your previous screen?

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post #4554 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 08:07 PM
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Thanks for assisting Leslie but nothing worked, I did notice Alt32 showed up as being directly connected to PC so very odd

I did a quick google search for "JBl SDP-75 roon" and it didn't return any results, also looked through the SDP-75 manual (Aug 2017), there is no mention of Roon in there.


Are you sure that it is supported.

Trinnov Altitude 32, LCR JBL M2, JBL LSR 708i, 705i, Q-SYS Core 110f, Amps- QSC CXD4.2Q, 4.3Q, 4.5Q
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post #4555 of 9123 Old 06-30-2018, 09:48 PM
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There are some clear indications Trinnov will support this. On questions regarding if auto lip-sync was supported; they stated "not yet". I really don't get why you see it as a problem that I request this and see it as a problem. It will make the Altitude an even better device. So according to you; I'm not worthy of the great Altitude if I can not live with setting audio delays manually; and you think I'm the one with issues here?
I hope your dealer lets you try a Trinnov out. I have had one for going on 3 years and have never had any lip-sync issues despite having this issue with other AVR/SSPs. I am using mine without any A/D & D/A conversion (pure digital) and it has performed flawless in this respect. If anything, the Trinnov has sooo many options for you to tweak, that you could spend countless hours/days/weeks, etc. on them alone. If you have it professionally installed, I doubt your calibrator will have any trouble dialing in anything less than perfection.
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post #4556 of 9123 Old 07-01-2018, 03:27 AM
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I did a quick google search for "JBl SDP-75 roon" and it didn't return any results, also looked through the SDP-75 manual (Aug 2017), there is no mention of Roon in there.


Are you sure that it is supported.
That was and is my original question perhaps it is not suppported
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post #4557 of 9123 Old 07-01-2018, 03:28 AM
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I did a quick google search for "JBl SDP-75 roon" and it didn't return any results, also looked through the SDP-75 manual (Aug 2017), there is no mention of Roon in there.


Are you sure that it is supported.
That was and is my original question perhaps it is not supported.
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post #4558 of 9123 Old 07-01-2018, 03:56 AM
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If anything, the Trinnov has sooo many options for you to tweak, that you could spend countless hours/days/weeks/months/years/decades, etc. on them alone.
AMEN!!!

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If you have it professionally installed, I doubt your calibrator will have any trouble dialing in anything less than perfection.
My recommendation and then after it is calibrated correctly, you can create your own presets and diddle 'till your heart is content. This approach allows you to hear an incredible processor much sooner and then tweak as you see fit.
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post #4559 of 9123 Old 07-02-2018, 12:39 AM
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That was and is my original question perhaps it is not supported.
Does it have a long 'Roon' button on your input selection screen?

Home --> Select

In your screen grab above you're showing the 'Network' input, but my A32 has a separate 'Roon' input at the bottom of the entire list of inputs.

Also interested why you switched from an A32 to an SDP75?
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post #4560 of 9123 Old 07-02-2018, 05:18 AM
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Does it have a long 'Roon' button on your input selection screen?

Home --> Select

In your screen grab above you're showing the 'Network' input, but my A32 has a separate 'Roon' input at the bottom of the entire list of inputs.

Also interested why you switched from an A32 to an SDP75?
The presets were downloaded from my AT32, and the location in the Home select where the Roon input would be is a saved preset, I did however setup the "network" source as roon ready and just did not rename it yet. I switched from AT32 to JBL SDP75 because my new setup will consist of all JBL synthesis speakers and I wanted the tuning files in JBL not the amps.
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