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post #4681 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
My new house, has an AC/furnace for each floor.

Basement (where theater is), I did a zoned system: 1 zone theater and 2nd zone rest of basement. I will never need to run AC in rest of basement.Mini-Split is pre-wired for my small equipment room. I may be able to cool the theater with the furnace fan always on (which will draw the cool air from the rest of the basement).. However, in the winter, the theater AC system will work to temperatures no colder than 20 degrees. We might have a couple weeks a year that gets colder than that. The cost to go to a unit to run at 0 degrees was far more costly.

You take this HVAC stuff for granted until you do a theater
Maybe there was a technical reason, but why not a fresh air exchange unit to suck in the cold air in the winter?

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post #4682 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 12:55 PM
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Maybe there was a technical reason, but why not a fresh air exchange unit to suck in the cold air in the winter?
Not aware of such a system, but such would bring in unwanted humidity and, perhaps, outside noise. But this likely would've been more economical.

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post #4683 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 12:59 PM
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Not aware of such a system, but such would bring in unwanted humidity and, perhaps, outside noise. But this likely would've been more economical.
Well in the cold winter, there’s almost no humidity but yes, you would not use much in the summer on humid days. There would be no noise...anyway as long as you have what works well..
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post #4684 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 01:06 PM
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Not aware of such a system, but such would bring in unwanted humidity and, perhaps, outside noise. But this likely would've been more economical.
cold winter air is not humid, it's dry, that's why in the winter you use a humidifier because the air is dry. what was suggested could be incorporated by a knowledgeable HVAC contractor. the term for it would be "free cooling" (of sorts) where no a/c system is used to do the cooling, but, the cooler/colder outside air is brought into the space too allow for a warm space with the desire to cool in the winter can be accomplished without using a condenser or evaporator system. you would also have to use an exhaust system to remove air or you risk over-pressurizing the space. it can be controlled with dampers and thermostat to limit the amount of cold air brought into the space as to not get it too cold.

it can be done, it's just, do you want to spend the money to do it.

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post #4685 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by solarrdadd View Post
cold winter air is not humid, it's dry, that's why in the winter you use a humidifier because the air is dry. what was suggested could be incorporated by a knowledgeable HVAC contractor. the term for it would be "free cooling" (of sorts) where no a/c system is used to do the cooling, but, the cooler/colder outside air is brought into the space too allow for a warm space with the desire to cool in the winter can be accomplished without using a condenser or evaporator system. you would also have to use an exhaust system to remove air or you risk over-pressurizing the space. it can be controlled with dampers and thermostat to limit the amount of cold air brought into the space as to not get it too cold.

it can be done, it's just, do you want to spend the money to do it.
Yeah, you're right about the humidity. The AC condenser was easiest to install. I think economics wise, it'll be OK as we rarely use the theater more than 2-4 hours per week. Any way you slice it, it'll be costly. Honestly, never considered another option for cooling... too many things to consider during this process..

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4686 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 06:19 PM
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The mini and your existing are completely independent.
I don't think that is correct but I will be talking to the AC guy mañana and confirm what I believe actually happens. Then I will respond.
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post #4687 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 06:30 PM
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This AC issue is a great topic- and one I’m dealing with too. But maybe we should take up in a separate thread and keep this to Trinnov?


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post #4688 of 8727 Old 07-22-2018, 06:55 PM
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This AC issue is a great topic- and one I’m dealing with too. But maybe we should take up in a separate thread and keep this to Trinnov?


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Total agreement. Any ideas on where this might be placed?
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post #4689 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 01:24 PM
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I trust someone can refresh my memory on front wides & how they are implemented in the Altitude.

I think I recall Atmos doesn't natively support wides but the Altitude can render to them? Can Altitude's implementation of DTS-X/Neural-X/Auromatic also render to them?

I would also greatly appreciate opinions on whether having (6 overheads) or (4 overheads + wides) seems to add the most to the experience.


I know audioguy has wides and Stu has even higher speaker count but don't know what you get from them, assuming not playing a 7.1.4 limited disc.

In another ~2 weeks I hope to be ready to choose a speaker layout in the Altitude & whether to use 2 of my 16 channels for both subs or get a minidsp 2X4 and combine them into 1 ch.

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post #4690 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I trust someone can refresh my memory on front wides & how they are implemented in the Altitude.

I think I recall Atmos doesn't natively support wides but the Altitude can render to them? Can Altitude's implementation of DTS-X/Neural-X/Auromatic also render to them?

I would also greatly appreciate opinions on whether having (6 overheads) or (4 overheads + wides) seems to add the most to the experience.


I know audioguy has wides and Stu has even higher speaker count but don't know what you get from them, assuming not playing a 7.1.4 limited disc.

In another ~2 weeks I hope to be ready to choose a speaker layout in the Altitude & whether to use 2 of my 16 channels for both subs or get a minidsp 2X4 and combine them into 1 ch.
I have wides and center heights. Atmos, if mixed properly does use "wides" and does so in a number of movies (and music BRs). That said, middle heights get a lot more use, at least according to the meters. I don't think the preference can be chosen in a vacuum. A lot depends on your room. I get a really good wide phantom center channel but that is because my left and right speakers are in the room a lot closer to the surrounds than they would be if behind the screen. Just go for it and get wides and top middle and buy the miniDSP for your subs. It is only money !!
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post #4691 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I trust someone can refresh my memory on front wides & how they are implemented in the Altitude.

I think I recall Atmos doesn't natively support wides but the Altitude can render to them? Can Altitude's implementation of DTS-X/Neural-X/Auromatic also render to them?

I would also greatly appreciate opinions on whether having (6 overheads) or (4 overheads + wides) seems to add the most to the experience.


I know audioguy has wides and Stu has even higher speaker count but don't know what you get from them, assuming not playing a 7.1.4 limited disc.

In another ~2 weeks I hope to be ready to choose a speaker layout in the Altitude & whether to use 2 of my 16 channels for both subs or get a minidsp 2X4 and combine them into 1 ch.

Atmos does support wides, DSU currently does not.


Personally I would suggest using the 6 overhead speakers, the front to back overhead panning is a lot more effective with 6 overheads than 4. Anything more than 6 then your filling in the gaps and probably only really noticeable in a large room.


I do like the wides even though there is not a ton of material that uses them effectively, but my preference would be the 6 overheads first. If you decide to do wides later its easy enough to matrix your side surrounds into the wides when upmixing to give them something to do. Also as numerous people have said before me, just use a minidsp or other outboard processor for more than 1 sub.

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post #4692 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 02:54 PM
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Atmos does support wides, DSU currently does not.


Personally I would suggest using the 6 overhead speakers, the front to back overhead panning is a lot more effective with 6 overheads than 4. Anything more than 6 then your filling in the gaps and probably only really noticeable in a large room.
Agree 100%. If you think as front to back as anchor points, adding another overhead speaker in between them stabilizes the imagery more.

Speaking of .6, out of curiosity, over the weekend I did a test of a front height/top front/top middle .6 setup to determine how much separation there was between content on FH and TF (no remapping), using the first scene in Rampage set on a space station. With a FH/TM/TR setup (my current layout due to overhead angles), when I soloed the overheads, the breathing of the scientist, rotation of the station, and structural/metal sounds tend to be up front above the mains.

However, when I kept my FH where they were, but switched my TM to TF, and TR to TM on the Atmos speaker configuration, you could better separate out the rotation effect and the breathing to be separated, with more discrimination across the front around to the wides above the speakers. Very loosely, kind of like "stereo" vs. "surround" above and in front and to the side.

Granted these are #firstworldproblems , but now I'm thinking of putting a pair of overheads between my Front Heights (about 30-35 degrees) and Top Middles (about 80-85) in the 50-55 degrees range. The only downside is that I'll have to free up channels on the Altitude, since I only have one channel free of my 24 right now. I'll have to offload the individual subs from separate channels managed by Trinnov to management on a MiniDSP or Xilica (not sure I'd want to spend for the Q-Sys Core).

Of course, that opens up more possibilities - a second pair of rear centers (LOL) or if I seriously cared about Auro (further LOL), surround heights...I know some won't agree, but sometimes quantity has a quality of its own...


I think Adam is running 13.1.8 in his Lab for Atmos, but that could be counting Auro-specific speakers as well.


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I do like the wides even though there is not a ton of material that uses them effectively, but my preference would be the 6 overheads first. If you decide to do wides later its easy enough to matrix your side surrounds into the wides when upmixing to give them something to do.

Or the mains copied to wides at a lower level. How much IMO that works depends on your room.
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post #4693 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 04:16 PM
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Granted these are #firstworldproblems
Ha yes those #firstworldproblems

Here's a doozy for you - I would never suggest anyone buying into the Q-SYS ecosystem just to run a few extra subs but one of the spinoffs of having the Core and recently acquiring a 32 is that I'll be implementing a DCI compliant audio chain shortly, well right upto the analog speaker wire that is. Wasn't a problem that needed solving just felt like doing it.

And since you mentioned Auro have you had a chance to test the Auro version of BR 2049 yet ?

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post #4694 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 04:45 PM
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Ha yes those #firstworldproblems

Here's a doozy for you - I would never suggest anyone buying into the Q-SYS ecosystem just to run a few extra subs but one of the spinoffs of having the Core and recently acquiring a 32 is that I'll be implementing a DCI compliant audio chain shortly, well right upto the analog speaker wire that is. Wasn't a problem that needed solving just felt like doing it.

The DCI flavor of audio chain is way beyond anything I'd do in my room from a technology or a budget perspective. If I went in ANY reset direction with the audio chain, it would be the JBL route with the M2 or LSR 708i/p line, which might mean the SDP-75 ultimately down the Synthesis path, but that has its own tradeoffs (no remapping, an issue given a few quirks from working with an existing room) even if I had the desire/money. Which I don't. I'd rather tinker incrementally in my HT room/would-be lab. YMMV.

Right now, if I really wanted to free up channels on the Altitude for speakers, I'd probably pick up the Xilica XA-2040 to manage the subs mostly due to price compared to the Core, as has it has much of the functionality I'm getting from the Altitude for the multi-sub management and PEQ. And no need for Phoenix connectors . The true overkill route would be to up my license to 32 channels, but there's several things I'd put ahead of that as a priority, like the video chain.


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An since you mentioned Auro have you had a chance to test the Auro version of BR 2049 yet ?
Just got Ted99's disc today. It's going to be a few days until I have the time. Hopefully by this time next week.

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post #4695 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 05:09 PM
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The DCI flavor of audio chain is way beyond anything I'd do in my room from a technology or a budget perspective. If I went in ANY reset direction with the audio chain, it would be the JBL route with the M2 or LSR 708i/p line, which might mean the SDP-75 ultimately down the Synthesis path, but that has its own tradeoffs (no remapping, an issue given a few quirks from working with an existing room) even if I had the desire/money. Which I don't. I'd rather tinker incrementally in my HT room/would-be lab. YMMV.

Right now, if I really wanted to free up channels, I'd probably pick up the Xilica XA-2040 to manage the subs mostly due to price compared to the Core, mostly because it has much of the functionality I'm getting from the Altitude for the multi-sub management and PEQ. The true overkill route would be to up my license to 32 channels, but there's several things I'd put ahead of that as a priority, like the video chain.
It's going to be relatively easy and comparatively cheap in audio terms for me to implement due to my existing equipment and I get to justify the upgrade to the 32 by doing it.

I'm really not convinced that you need the SDP-75 to run the M2's, I know JBL does their own version of secret sauce but even in their crown amps the M2 voicings are implemented with PEQ's something that can be done easily in the Altitude provided you have enough spare channels to run the M2's active. However if the goal is to implement a full synthesis system then there's nothing wrong with going all in

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Just got Ted99's disc today. It's going to be a few days until I have the time. Hopefully by this time next week.
Really is a shame that Auro couldn't work out some sort of distribution deal in the US to make it easier to get hold of the discs. Only Auro disc I have is Red Tails & their Demo disc

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post #4696 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 05:15 PM
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Educate me here... DCI audio? How does that help with your average Blu Ray / 4K disc?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4697 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 05:47 PM
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Educate me here... DCI audio? How does that help with your average Blu Ray / 4K disc?
DCI compliance just guarantees the integrity of the Audio or Video Chain, basically by keeping everything in the digital domain. No AD/DA conversion.

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post #4698 of 8727 Old 07-23-2018, 06:11 PM
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The mini and your existing are completely independent. If u have the mini on in your bedroom for example then likely you won't have the main ac on to cool the main floor since you are upstairs. But even if the main floor thermostat called for cooling it wouldn't be an issue with using the returns because the minisplit has nothing to do with the returns.
I was just originally thinking you could add your theater as a zone and your equipment room as a second zone for an incremental cost increase over just the cooling system cost for the equipment room.
My new house, has an AC/furnace for each floor.

Basement (where theater is), I did a zoned system: 1 zone theater and 2nd zone rest of basement. I will never need to run AC in rest of basement.Mini-Split is pre-wired for my small equipment room. I may be able to cool the theater with the furnace fan always on (which will draw the cool air from the rest of the basement).. However, in the winter, the theater AC system will work to temperatures no colder than 20 degrees. We might have a couple weeks a year that gets colder than that. The cost to go to a unit to run at 0 degrees was far more costly.

You take this HVAC stuff for granted until you do a theater [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Just one more off topic post to put some closure to it. Most new builds above a certain size will spec a separate HVAC system for each floor. Anyone like you guys on this forum with high end gear and mainly dedicated rooms need to consider air exchange and cooling in the room design. I cheaped out a little bit when I built the dungeon ten years ago and was lucky to be able to retrofit a minisplit system without destroying the soundproof envelope. I also used an old air intake duct from the previous hrv system and pull in cold Canadian winter air thru a near silent 6 inch inline fan to an inline fantech filter box and into the theatre. Does a great almost free job of cooling the theatre in the many cold months up here lol. Anyone can PM me for part numbers if needed. And now back to some Trinnov talk!

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post #4699 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 05:01 AM
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...I'll have to offload the individual subs from separate channels managed by Trinnov to management on a MiniDSP or Xilica (not sure I'd want to spend for the Q-Sys Core).

I had discovered the older Q-core 250i is discontinued & been replaced by the 510i @ $6K. Maybe the 250i also cost that much but that's a whole lot more than I had in mind for 2 subs, even if I eventually went to 3.

What's the approx price of a Xilica XA2040 and who in the US sells them? I see an XP2040 at Acoustic Frontiers for $950. Differences between XA & XP? "A" for analog inputs?

Something "better" than the budget $200 minidsp 2X4 but not have a QSC 510i price tag would be nice.

I really appreciate these kind of tips, as I make the transition from top consumer-level gear.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-24-2018 at 05:20 AM.
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post #4700 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 05:30 AM
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I had discovered the older Q-core 250i is discontinued & been replaced by the 510i @ $6K. Maybe the 250i also cost that much but that's a whole lot more than I had in mind for 2 subs, even if I eventually went to 3.
.
A 510i would be total overkill. An entry level Core 110f has way more processing power than most people would likely find a use for in a HT environment.

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post #4701 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I had discovered the older Q-core 250i is discontinued & been replaced by the 510i @ $6K. Maybe the 250i also cost that much but that's a whole lot more than I had in mind for 2 subs, even if I eventually went to 3.

What's the approx price of a Xilica XA2040 and who in the US sells them? I see an XP2040 at Acoustic Frontiers for $950. Differences between XA & XP? "A" for analog inputs?

Something "better" than the budget $200 minidsp 2X4 but not have a QSC 510i price tag would be nice.

I really appreciate these kind of tips, as I make the transition from top consumer-level gear.
Keep an eye on eBay 2nd hand Q-Sys Cores are advertised regularly. I got a Core 500i for $1,700.

Just keep in mind that unless you are going all digital AES67 and QLan between PrePro -> Core -> Pwr Amps then you will need some type of add in cards for your Core as well.
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post #4702 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 05:53 AM
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^^
Thanks for that info.

The other question I have, now that Stu & audioguy have mentioned heights, is can the Altitude use front heights along with top fronts? I have 2 front heights from the IIz/NeoX era that are currently not used with the Marantz since CE gear can only do alternate rows & I wanted top fronts & rears. The speakers & wiring are still in place.

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post #4703 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 05:56 AM
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A 510i would be total overkill. An entry level Core 110f has way more processing power than most people would likely find a use for in a HT environment.

Great, thank you! I'll take a look.

Steve
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post #4704 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 06:37 AM
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It isn't the number of subs that drives what sub processor you should select but the number of sub "locations" that are NOT equa-distant to the MLP. You can have 3 subs stacked in each of the 4 corners (in a rectangular room) and only need 2 processing channels.

And I know Adam is partial to QSC (I also gaged when I looked up the price) but for sub management, something like one of the miniDSP products or one of the Xilica products is way more than good enough. The miniDSP product I use is no longer on their list of products (miniDSP: Open DRC-AN).
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post #4705 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 06:58 AM
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Atmos does support wides, DSU currently does not.


Personally I would suggest using the 6 overhead speakers, the front to back overhead panning is a lot more effective with 6 overheads than 4. Anything more than 6 then your filling in the gaps and probably only really noticeable in a large room.


I do like the wides even though there is not a ton of material that uses them effectively, but my preference would be the 6 overheads first. If you decide to do wides later its easy enough to matrix your side surrounds into the wides when upmixing to give them something to do. Also as numerous people have said before me, just use a minidsp or other outboard processor for more than 1 sub.
A 20.000-30.000$ USD processor with 16 to 32 channels and you NEED ADD an extra miniDSP to matrix side surround channels?
I need someone to explain it to me.....
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post #4706 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 07:04 AM
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A 20.000-30.000$ USD processor with 16 to 32 channels and you NEED ADD an extra miniDSP to matrix side surround channels?
I need someone to explain it to me.....
Has nothing to do with side channels. It is about using 15 of the 16 channels (or 31 of the 32) for bed and height speakers and the last for sub management. If you use fewer channels for bed and height, the Trinnov is more than capable of doing multi-sub management.
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post #4707 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 07:09 AM
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A 20.000-30.000$ USD processor with 16 to 32 channels and you NEED ADD an extra miniDSP to matrix side surround channels?
I need someone to explain it to me.....

You mis-understood what I said,



Nothing to explain.

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post #4708 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 07:18 AM
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Has nothing to do with side channels. It is about using 15 of the 16 channels (or 31 of the 32) for bed and height speakers and the last for sub management. If you use fewer channels for bed and height, the Trinnov is more than capable of doing multi-sub management.
Exactly...and I've always done multi-sub management within the Altitude. But if you have more channels, it's quite easy to use them up. I started, believe it or not, with 7.1 when I first bought the Altitude, and have been through 7.1.4, 9.1.4, 11.1.6 (where I was when I had Curt Hoyt come here)
and now 13.1.6.

The only reason I would be looking at the MiniDSP or Xilica 2040 or 4040 - I don't think the Core 110f is worth the price tag just for subs - would be to free up three channels on my 24 channel Altitude for other purposes (e.g. adding a fourth pair of overheads for FH/TF/TM/TR in my room setup, or maybe a second pair of rears) without having go the more expensive route to upgrade to 32 channels.

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post #4709 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 07:21 AM
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Uh, sorry! I misunderstand ss9001 user question. I thought he was asking just about how Trinnov managed Dolby DSU upmixing... so when i read to add a miniDSP I flipped out (I didn't realize they were talking about bass management too).
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post #4710 of 8727 Old 07-24-2018, 07:32 AM
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I don't think the Core 110f is worth the price tag just for subs

It isn't

As I said a few posts back I would never recommend using one if your sole use for it is to add a few extra subs.

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