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post #5311 of 10053 Old 10-16-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Did you take into account the effects caused by the dimensions of your room? Don't forget that nulls (aka cancellations and "suck-outs") produced at specific locations and frequencies by a single subwoofer can only be corrected by proper placement and phasing of a second or subsequent subwoofer. Even the best PEQ can do nothing for them.
The subs in the front and those in the rear are positioned such that they create a VERY smooth response ........ COLLECTIVELY. I am quite aware of how each set of subs interact with the room. I spent HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS moving subs around and using simulations to come up with the right combination of locations. Neither the front nor the rears provide good results by themselves but as a group, when set up properly, they are amazingly flat even without any PEQ or EQ.

The discussion here is using or not using delay on the rears subs to optimize the combined response prior to any EQ/PEQ.

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post #5312 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
That is one method, and may work well in your room with only one row of seating, and one primary listening position. The Welti/Devantier method assumes all subs to be same phase (no time delay) and level matched. In small rooms, multiple subwoofers behave as a single sub. Placement of those multiple subs then allows us to create a consistent seat to seat listening area, reducing modal peaks. Any EQ applied then has the same effect on the listening area.

You can still get a great single seat experience with other methods, but by delaying the rear subs, you will have significantly messed with the maths/physics. At that point, you may find you need to have independent EQ/Delay/Level for each subwoofer. Think Harmans SFM, or MSO.

Boarding a flight, and I may have time later to come back and add/edit this. Or Jamin or Seaton can contribute.
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
The discussion here is using or not using delay on the rears subs to optimize the combined response prior to any EQ/PEQ.
Just trying to wrap my head around an approach that doesn't apply delay to any sub? I have two subs, one front and one rear (the front sub, by necessity of the centre speaker, being off-centre from the ideal mid-point), that give a fairly good and fairly smooth response across my single line of three seats, but I've always (by blind default) added a delay to the rear sub to time align them both, given that the MLP is not dead centre to the length of the room.

Now I've just ran them through REW's Room Sim, I can see that removing the delay to the rear sub does indeed improve seat to seat consistency (response remains largely identical up to the crossover at 80Hz). Weird! I can't get my head around why this is the case - my layman's logic tells me that this should only be the case if the subs are equidistant from each seat - which they can't possibly be? I'll have a go at reading through the white paper (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00d...206.1539763875) if its not too heavy going!

Subs Time Aligned:



Subs Not Time Aligned:

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post #5313 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Just trying to wrap my head around an approach that doesn't apply delay to any sub? I have two subs, one front and one rear (the front sub, by necessity of the centre speaker, being off-centre from the ideal mid-point), that give a fairly good and fairly smooth response across my single line of three seats, but I've always (by blind default) added a delay to the rear sub to time align them both, given that the MLP is not dead centre to the length of the room.

Now I've just ran them through REW's Room Sim, I can see that removing the delay to the rear sub does indeed improve seat to seat consistency (response remains largely identical up to the crossover at 80Hz). Weird! I can't get my head around why this is the case - my layman's logic tells me that this should only be the case if the subs are equidistant from each seat - which they can't possibly be?
My 2 cts:

Eliminating room modes with well positioned multiple subs works best when all subs are firing synchronously, as the effectivity of such procedure concerns the whole room and not any specific listening position. Applying time delay to synchronize direct sound arrival at one specific position (like MLP) might only be beneficial for frequencies above Schroeder, when the room no longer plays a dominant role in determining the frequency response. Adjusting delay to the subs as a group is however still a recommended practice to optimize the cross-over point from main speakers to subs (e.g. 80 Hz), and measured at MLP.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #5314 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 05:48 AM
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I can see that removing the delay to the rear sub does indeed improve seat to seat consistency (response remains largely identical up to the crossover at 80Hz).
Unfortunately, that is what I am not seeing. While "similar", the non delayed version of the response has a fairly obvious/substantive dip that no PEQ or EQ is going to address. The same dip is there when time aligned but VERY inconsequential (also not fixable). What I can't determine is why Adam's version of the same response (equal delay in front and rear subs) does not look like what I am getting?????

I am very interested in what @Mark Seaton has to say on this subject. I learned this technique from him about 10 years ago and have very successfully applied to 4 or 5 of my own rooms and many others I have calibrated in the last 10 years.
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post #5315 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 06:00 AM
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My 2 cts:

Eliminating room modes with well positioned multiple subs works best when all subs are firing synchronously, as the effectivity of such procedure concerns the whole room and not any specific listening position. Applying time delay to synchronize direct sound arrival at one specific position (like MLP) might only be beneficial for frequencies above Schroeder, when the room no longer plays a dominant role in determining the frequency response. Adjusting delay to the subs as a group is however still a recommended practice to optimize the cross-over point from main speakers to subs (e.g. 80 Hz), and measured at MLP.
I only have one row and this rear sub delay technique improves the response at each seat. BUT, I am OK with doing it the other way (no rear sub delay) if I somehow can address the dip that shows up when I do it!!

I find this discussion very fascinating. I have been doing the closer sub delay approach for a long time with good results and now it turns out that it may or may not be the most optimum approach. I can say that when Adam did just my subs the first time he visited, the bass was the best I had ever had. What messed it all up, and why I am even screwing around with it, is that more than one of the multiple XLR cables involved from the processor to the miniDSP to the subs was faulty. When I replaced all of them, the over all gain of the 8 subs was up substantively --- and it was not uniform between the front subs and rear subs. So now, I need to re PEQ them, re-measure them and then re-run Optimizer.

What an awesome hobby !!
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post #5316 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Unfortunately, that is what I am not seeing. While "similar", the non delayed version of the response has a fairly obvious/substantive dip that no PEQ or EQ is going to address. The same dip is there when time aligned but VERY inconsequential (also not fixable). What I can't determine is why Adam's version of the same response (equal delay in front and rear subs) does not look like what I am getting?????

I am very interested in what @Mark Seaton has to say on this subject. I learned this technique from him about 10 years ago and have very successfully applied to 4 or 5 of my own rooms and many others I have calibrated in the last 10 years.
Are you able to post all three graphs?
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post #5317 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 06:07 AM
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Are you able to post all three graphs?
Later this morning I will do so.
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post #5318 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I only have one row and this rear sub delay technique improves the response at each seat. BUT, I am OK with doing it the other way (no rear sub delay) if I somehow can address the dip that shows up when I do it!!

I find this discussion very fascinating. I have been doing the closer sub delay approach for a long time with good results and now it turns out that it may or may not be the most optimum approach. I can say that when Adam did just my subs the first time he visited, the bass was the best I had ever had. What messed it all up, and why I am even screwing around with it, is that more than one of the multiple XLR cables involved from the processor to the miniDSP to the subs was faulty. When I replaced all of them, the over all gain of the 8 subs was up substantively --- and it was not uniform between the front subs and rear subs. So now, I need to re PEQ them, re-measure them and then re-run Optimizer.

What an awesome hobby !!
If only the gain of each sub has changed, why can't you just adjust the gain of each output on the mini-DSP to get it back to where it was?

Is there a chance also that, if one of the old cables (or the new cables) were wired to opposite pins (i.e. pins 2 and 3 mixed up at one end or the other), the signal will arrive at the sub out of phase. So there could have been a gain error and a phase error when you changed cables.
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post #5319 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 06:33 AM
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If only the gain of each sub has changed, why can't you just adjust the gain of each output on the mini-DSP to get it back to where it was?
I'm not exactly sure what it looked like prior to changing these cable. Here is what happened: Some time after Adam left, I noticed that my bass had become a bit anemic. So I did some measurements and noticed that the bass was down 3 to 4 dB. Eventually I decided that 3dB smelled like an XLR ground wire that had broken/come loose/failed so decided to just replace ALL of the wires. The single wire from the Trinnov to the splitter cable to the two inputs on the miniDSP; the splitter cable; and an additional cable from one of the outputs of the miniDSP to the cable that ran to the one of the sets of subs. The results of doing this not only got back the 3dB that I mysteriously "lost" but another 3dB as well so now the bass was wrong in the other direction!! What I don't know is if all of the bad cables were attached to JUST the front subs, JUST the rear subs or both. I do not have the relative individual sub group levels.

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Is there a chance also that, if one of the old cables (or the new cables) were wired to opposite pins (i.e. pins 2 and 3 mixed up at one end or the other), the signal will arrive at the sub out of phase. So there could have been a gain error and a phase error when you changed cables.
Since I can invert phase in the miniDSP, I will explore doing that individually to the two sets of subs (as well as adjust the gains of the individual sets of subs) and see what happens.
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post #5320 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Unfortunately, that is what I am not seeing. While "similar", the non delayed version of the response has a fairly obvious/substantive dip that no PEQ or EQ is going to address. The same dip is there when time aligned but VERY inconsequential (also not fixable). What I can't determine is why Adam's version of the same response (equal delay in front and rear subs) does not look like what I am getting?????

I am very interested in what @Mark Seaton has to say on this subject. I learned this technique from him about 10 years ago and have very successfully applied to 4 or 5 of my own rooms and many others I have calibrated in the last 10 years.
I don't doubt that what Adam dialed in sounded great, but it's almost impossible to isolate the relative subwoofer delays vs other fine tuning and EQ. You hear the total result.

The extensive math and analysis Welti did for their multi-sub study only examined driving all subs with the same signals. They didn't and couldn't examine all possible ranges of room dimensions and seating locations. If the room is acoustically rectangular and symmetrical in length and width, this approach does reduce seat-seat variation with a straight forward solution. You still need to evaluate if the frequency response/transfer function is useful at the listening position, or move the listening position to where it is. A less desirable frequency response is not exclusive from having less seat-seat variation.

Since the study kept the drive signal the same to all subs, it also doesn't confirm or disprove that delay on some subs can improve the result. Seat-seat variation in thebland's last theater was demonstrably better with delay applied to the rear subwoofers. It's important to realize that the "delay" applied has much less to do with arrival times as it does with applying a frequency dependent phase shift that reduces at low frequencies. A fixed delay of 5ms is about 180 deg at 100Hz, but only 18 deg at 10Hz. Since the lowest frequencies are acoustically so close that multiple devices of the same type will usually combine constructively, we don't want to apply large phase shifts to this range just to fix issues at higher frequencies in the sub range. All of the various ways to adjust the subs are simply tools available, and sometimes one works much better than another.

I do wonder if Adam's measurements you were referring to were an average of multiple locations rather than a single point. Before I start making adjustments I typically will take quick measurements around the listening bubble/area to check if there are any big variations and how they might vary. An array of microphones makes it even easier. You could take a couple measurements toward the L/R seats and a bit forward / behind with the 0 vs 3ms setting to see how significant the difference is. If the delay was more significant it might be a bigger factor, but I'm pretty sure the differences are down to overall balance and optimization. It would probably be worth looking at decay/waterfall plots with and without delay to make sure there isn't something else going on making for a very audible difference.

The fact that some level differences due to the wiring issues shifted things so far as to not let you quickly get back to the sound you had by digitally matching the levels again screams to me that this is matter of delicate balance of upper bass level and integration, and much less so philosophical approach.
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post #5321 of 10053 Old 10-17-2018, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I don't doubt that what Adam dialed in sounded great, but it's almost impossible to isolate the relative subwoofer delays vs other fine tuning and EQ. You hear the total result.

The extensive math and analysis Welti did for their multi-sub study only examined driving all subs with the same signals. They didn't and couldn't examine all possible ranges of room dimensions and seating locations. If the room is acoustically rectangular and symmetrical in length and width, this approach does reduce seat-seat variation with a straight forward solution. You still need to evaluate if the frequency response/transfer function is useful at the listening position, or move the listening position to where it is. A less desirable frequency response is not exclusive from having less seat-seat variation.

Since the study kept the drive signal the same to all subs, it also doesn't confirm or disprove that delay on some subs can improve the result. Seat-seat variation in thebland's last theater was demonstrably better with delay applied to the rear subwoofers. It's important to realize that the "delay" applied has much less to do with arrival times as it does with applying a frequency dependent phase shift that reduces at low frequencies. A fixed delay of 5ms is about 180 deg at 100Hz, but only 18 deg at 10Hz. Since the lowest frequencies are acoustically so close that multiple devices of the same type will usually combine constructively, we don't want to apply large phase shifts to this range just to fix issues at higher frequencies in the sub range. All of the various ways to adjust the subs are simply tools available, and sometimes one works much better than another.

I do wonder if Adam's measurements you were referring to were an average of multiple locations rather than a single point. Before I start making adjustments I typically will take quick measurements around the listening bubble/area to check if there are any big variations and how they might vary. An array of microphones makes it even easier. You could take a couple measurements toward the L/R seats and a bit forward / behind with the 0 vs 3ms setting to see how significant the difference is. If the delay was more significant it might be a bigger factor, but I'm pretty sure the differences are down to overall balance and optimization. It would probably be worth looking at decay/waterfall plots with and without delay to make sure there isn't something else going on making for a very audible difference.

The fact that some level differences due to the wiring issues shifted things so far as to not let you quickly get back to the sound you had by digitally matching the levels again screams to me that this is matter of delicate balance of upper bass level and integration, and much less so philosophical approach.
Yup, no disagreements there.

One thing that is often overlooked or misinterpreted with the Welti/Devantier method is that it is primarily about seat to seat consistency, and rarely ever produces a smooth bass response. Having EQ available is part of the requirement, along with the assumption that all subs are similar. (This concept of using smaller "balancing sub" gives me fits.) But given that the seat to seat consistency is high, and EQ is then largely global, any improvements made with EQ apply to the entire listening area. So you get to tackle modal issues and the associated ringing/long decay, and then with EQ get the smooth response plot.

This method can result in a more smooth bass response of course. Generally, if seats are in moderate zones (out of nulls at the mid and 1/4 points) then the dips in frequency response are usually because of a lack of modal support. Once you minimize the big peaks by proper subwoofer placement, the response plot will naturally improve. At subwoofer frequencies, those modal peaks can be quite far apart. As you start approaching the transition frequency for a room, there is so much modal support, the room itself starts to matter less.

The rig I'm currently using allows me to run 8 microphones and look at each independently, or spatially average any set of them, all in real time, at 1/48th octave. That allows me to very easily and quickly do exactly what Mark mentioned. In this case, the measured frequency response was clustered very closely around the main listening position. Audioguy is a very selfish listener! One of the nice features of the Altitude that I usually take advantage of is the ability to adding weighting or even remove certain mic positions from an Optimizer solution, so we can have a preset that optimizes response for just the main seats, and another that provides a solution for a full house of guests.

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post #5322 of 10053 Old 10-18-2018, 12:09 AM
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Both Oppo HDMI outs are connected to 2 different HDMI inputs on the Altitude; the video output to an HDMI 2.0 input of course and the audio only to an HDMI 1.4 input.
Just curious. Why not just connect the Main HDMI output alone ? It carries both video and audio. And leave the audio-only output disconnected.

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post #5323 of 10053 Old 10-18-2018, 05:02 AM
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Just curious. Why not just connect the Main HDMI output alone ? It carries both video and audio. And leave the audio-only output disconnected.
That's what I've always done...however, on the 205, Oppo has come up with a reduced jitter reduction approach on HDMI that supposedly reduces it to the low 50 picosecs. This circuit is only on the audio-only output though. While one could debate how much difference it can make audibly , I wanted to try it out and at least have the ability to make use of it. Here's their technical description of this feature -

https://www.oppodigital.com/Knowledg...ProdID=UDP-205

I was hoping to use the audio-only connection just for non-video music. It's not a big deal obviously.

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post #5324 of 10053 Old 10-18-2018, 05:07 AM
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Audioguy is a very selfish listener!
I am a "very selfish listener" indeed, for two reasons. Music, even played back via AuroMatic, still works best sitting dead center between the left and right speakers and 99.999999999% of the time, it is only me listening.

And, what I have discovered, is that with one exception ( a friend who is also a selfish listner), not a single person who has visited any theater I have had in almost 30 years would know the difference between any seat and the prime seat. (I've always had just one row). And, when we have guests to watch movies, I always give up the center seat and the ones next to it are so close to it in quality that each guest has a great seat. I have 4 seats in the row and the "outlier" is close to the left wall and too close to the left front and side speakers. (Where I sit when we have guests). That one, while measured, has a weight of ZERO. If it were included, ALL of the seats (but that one) would suck.

But for grins, when I re-calibrate the room, I am going to come up with another profile that more evenly weights the 3 key seats and see what I give up for the center seat. My guess is, for my room, my current "selfish" calibration will still be the best. If I had two rows, all bets are off and I would need another Preset to deal with that configuration as the audio in that part of the room just sucks !!

The good news is that the seat weighing that Optimizer provides makes all of this really easy.
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post #5325 of 10053 Old 10-18-2018, 12:02 PM
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I am a "very selfish listener" indeed, for two reasons. Music, even played back via AuroMatic, still works best sitting dead center between the left and right speakers and 99.999999999% of the time, it is only me listening.

And, what I have discovered, is that with one exception ( a friend who is also a selfish listner), not a single person who has visited any theater I have had in almost 30 years would know the difference between any seat and the prime seat. (I've always had just one row). And, when we have guests to watch movies, I always give up the center seat and the ones next to it are so close to it in quality that each guest has a great seat. I have 4 seats in the row and the "outlier" is close to the left wall and too close to the left front and side speakers. (Where I sit when we have guests). That one, while measured, has a weight of ZERO. If it were included, ALL of the seats (but that one) would suck.

But for grins, when I re-calibrate the room, I am going to come up with another profile that more evenly weights the 3 key seats and see what I give up for the center seat. My guess is, for my room, my current "selfish" calibration will still be the best. If I had two rows, all bets are off and I would need another Preset to deal with that configuration as the audio in that part of the room just sucks !!

The good news is that the seat weighing that Optimizer provides makes all of this really easy.
Fortunately the most important details to optimize for the money seat will be distance/delays and levels, which is what the main position in the Trinnov calibration does. Especially for a single row, it's not uncommon to find a good fit that sounds great for the whole row, as keeping modest peak in check at a side seat benefits more than hurts at the main seat. One reason I mentioned looking at the decay plots, and privately suggested comparing response with an RTA, is that bass is really about total energy, and occasionally we'll miss something in the direct measurements that hangs around for much longer than other frequencies. This can be apparent in listening, but not always in quick magnitude measurements. Another parameter worth experimenting with (although less specific to the low frequencies) is the "number of cycles" at the top of the main display parameters. Shortening the number of cycles focuses more at the direct arrival, while more cycles gives more consideration for early reflections. The HF characteristics of the speaker and the acoustics of the space play a big role in how significant such changes will be. In a more live space it often makes sense to use more cycles to better balance the overall energy of the room.

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post #5326 of 10053 Old 10-19-2018, 06:15 AM
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Under advanced settings/FIR & IIR settings/Numbers of IIR filters. Default = 10.
What are the pros and cons of setting this value to 16 or 30?

Edit:
What does this setting actually do to the sound? I feel the sound gets somewhat "syntetic" if you increase this value too much.

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post #5327 of 10053 Old 10-19-2018, 11:17 AM
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post #5328 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 07:00 PM
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Altitude with active speakers

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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Anyone here using the Altitude with active speakers, or are you generally going with standard amp racks?

I was using the Altitude 32 with my Meridian 8k for a year before I switched to amp racks and passive speakers. What would you like to talk about?

Shankar

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post #5329 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 07:10 PM
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Problem playing Oppo SACD on Altutude

I find that when I play SACD in LPCM via either HDMI port of the Oppo 203 (latest FW) (Regular and Audio Only), the music feels like it has been clipped. There is a constant loud scratch in the music. This happens in every track of every SACD, and these SACDs were fine with my earlier Preamp. The CD layers are fine. Tried another Oppo from a friend, same problem.

TV Screen says LPCM and Oppo display says SACD Mch.

My dealer is trying to get the issue sorted with Trinnov, but he mentioned that he had had the same issue with Apple TV. He fixed that by doing something with the Apple TV settings.

Has anyone come across this issue?

Regards

Trinnov into Dan D'Agostino Momentum into Wilson Alexx. Anthem 525 and Monitor Audio for Surrounds and Ceiling. Paradigm Sub 2. Sony VPL-VW550ES throwing on a Screen Research 123" screen.
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post #5330 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankar_v View Post
I find that when I play SACD in LPCM via either HDMI port of the Oppo 203 (latest FW) (Regular and Audio Only), the music feels like it has been clipped. There is a constant loud scratch in the music. This happens in every track of every SACD, and these SACDs were fine with my earlier Preamp. The CD layers are fine. Tried another Oppo from a friend, same problem.

TV Screen says LPCM and Oppo display says SACD Mch.

My dealer is trying to get the issue sorted with Trinnov, but he mentioned that he had had the same issue with Apple TV. He fixed that by doing something with the Apple TV settings.

Has anyone come across this issue?

Regards
Strange. Never heard that. Did the dealer say what the issue was with the Apple TV setting?

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post #5331 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 07:56 PM
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Hi Shankar - long time! Was there a specific reason you switched back to amps and passive speakers? What did you find to be the pros and cons of each?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankar_v View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Anyone here using the Altitude with active speakers, or are you generally going with standard amp racks?

I was using the Altitude 32 with my Meridian 8k for a year before I switched to amp racks and passive speakers. What would you like to talk about?

Shankar
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post #5332 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
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Hi Shankar - long time! Was there a specific reason you switched back to amps and passive speakers? What did you find to be the pros and cons of each?
My reason for switching was more related to the fact that Meridian 8k has digital inputs than the fact that it was active. I also had active surrounds which had analog inputs. Meridians function best in tehir closed system.

As to the sound there is such a vast difference between Meridian and Wilson house sounds that any other changes are dwarfed by comparison. Also, with the Meridians, the volume control was effected by reducing the digital signal level, which is ok for small changes from the reference, but not for large changes.
Of course with separates you can mix and match, and that works for DIYers I guess.

Thats's the sum of it!

Shankar

Trinnov into Dan D'Agostino Momentum into Wilson Alexx. Anthem 525 and Monitor Audio for Surrounds and Ceiling. Paradigm Sub 2. Sony VPL-VW550ES throwing on a Screen Research 123" screen.
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post #5333 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Anyone here using the Altitude with active speakers, or are you generally going with standard amp racks?

I'm using a mix of passive and active JBL's

Trinnov Altitude 32, LCR JBL M2, JBL LSR 708i, 705i, Q-SYS Core 110f, Amps- QSC CXD4.2Q, 4.3Q, 4.5Q
Kaleidescape Strato, Zapitti 4K HDR Duo, Xbox One X, 8TB Tivo Roamio Pro,
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post #5334 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 09:38 PM
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What’s been your experience so far and preference? Any pros and/or cons of digital that you can mention?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Anyone here using the Altitude with active speakers, or are you generally going with standard amp racks?

I'm using a mix of passive and active JBL's
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post #5335 of 10053 Old 10-20-2018, 09:41 PM
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Thanks Shankar - yes, I was concerned about the impact on dynamic range of having to adjust the volume digitally - I don’t know if there are other ways of doing it with any of the speaker options, or by expanding the bit depth in the Trinnov?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankar_v View Post
My reason for switching was more related to the fact that Meridian 8k has digital inputs than the fact that it was active. I also had active surrounds which had analog inputs. Meridians function best in tehir closed system.

As to the sound there is such a vast difference between Meridian and Wilson house sounds that any other changes are dwarfed by comparison. Also, with the Meridians, the volume control was effected by reducing the digital signal level, which is ok for small changes from the reference, but not for large changes.
Of course with separates you can mix and match, and that works for DIYers I guess.

Thats's the sum of it!

Shankar
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post #5336 of 10053 Old 10-21-2018, 07:52 AM
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Strange. Never heard that. Did the dealer say what the issue was with the Apple TV setting?
No. Just that that setting was unavailable in the Oppo.

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post #5337 of 10053 Old 10-21-2018, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
What’s been your experience so far and preference? Any pros and/or cons of digital that you can mention?

No drawbacks to digital AFAIC not in a HT setup, my whole system is digital so not really the average user. My amps are connected to the Altitude via the AES/DB25 connector. Biggest advantage is zero noise floor (not audible).

The drawbacks I see to active speakers are that you tend to be tied to ownership for longer, its far more expensive to upgrade your speakers every few years and your choice of speakers are far fewer, however your generally getting a very good speaker.

If you don't have an equipment room active speakers are a great idea provided you have power close by.

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post #5338 of 10053 Old 10-21-2018, 10:13 AM
 
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volume control with trinnov, or at the digital speaker, or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Thanks Shankar - yes, I was concerned about the impact on a dynamic range of having to adjust the volume digitally - I don’t know if there are other ways of doing it with any of the speaker options, or by expanding the bit depth in the Trinnov?
It is an interesting question that RDJAM poses.

I guess until someone has a system with both capabilities that a/bing will point to the answer.

One cannot compare a meridian to a Dagostino Alexa combo, so there is overkill bias going on with our friend's comparison.

I was planning on an altitude 16 Kii Three 12.2 ch Living Room cinema with 4 tops, so I went to the Toronto Audio Fair to listen to the Kii Threes with BXT.

For sure the excellent Trinnov Alcons Digital combination proves that the trinnov volume works extremely well. Then there are the new quested that take dante losslesly and feeds the woofers from the digital amp but output xlr's to have better a/b, a or triodes to drive the amt's.

What I came out after listening to the Kiis and a new elac powered column speaker from Andrew Jones, for my Living room cinema, is that despite great strides the best ncore amp lacks the warmth and emotion when applied to the midrange and tweeter. It is an impression, but the Dynaudio digital speakers lack the same finesse when compared to the classic line, to my ears. Andrew Jones seems to arrive to similar conclusions in this youtube.


The Kiis are an excellent speaker system for a 12 channel all digital setup, due to their unique cardioid dsp design they sound better the next time you hear them, but.. the ELACS discussed by the editors here in the bookshelf form are amazing active a/b powered ("CHAD"? amp designs).



https://darko.audio/2018/05/andrew-t...high-end-2018/

The ELAC 2k columns will get best sound in show in a Canadian Magazine (I overheard), look it up next week. The name of the active line was going to be argos but now it will be something like Nauticus as Argos was Taken.

So my plan is now Trinnov Alt 16 with aes67 dante (LOSSLESS DANTE IS TOTALLY LOSSLESS) going to the speaker location and locally converting to a dac behind the speakers. in a 9.1.6. And like in the Trinnov Alcons combo which is FLAWLESS, use the trinnov digital volume. As dacs get better it is an easy future upgrade.

So I am recommending after consideration, trinnov network digital out, local dac and active speakers, te elacs are meridian killers in some ways but there are a ton of quality active speakers out there, this gives me the best of all worlds, i hope.
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Last edited by F.Scaramanga; 10-21-2018 at 10:51 AM.
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post #5339 of 10053 Old 10-21-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Scaramanga View Post
So my plan is now Trinnov Alt 16 with aes67 dante (LOSSLESS DANTE IS TOTALLY LOSSLESS) going to the speaker location and locally converting to a dac behind the speakers. in a 9.1.6. And like in the Trinnov Alcons combo which is FLAWLESS, use the trinnov digital volume. As dacs get better it is an easy future upgrade.

That may not be possible until mid 2019 (rumored), one of the reasons why I sold my Alt 16.


Great video from Andrew Jones.

Trinnov Altitude 32, LCR JBL M2, JBL LSR 708i, 705i, Q-SYS Core 110f, Amps- QSC CXD4.2Q, 4.3Q, 4.5Q
Kaleidescape Strato, Zapitti 4K HDR Duo, Xbox One X, 8TB Tivo Roamio Pro,
JVC RS600 + ISCO IIIL, 158" 2.40:1 AT screen, Calman 5 Enthusiast, i1 Pro 2, i1 Display Pro, Spyder 5, 3D LUT Box
Oppo UDP-203, BDP-105, Onkyo DAC-1000s, Onkyo DP-X1 DAP, QNAP TVS-871

Last edited by kingwiggi; 10-21-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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post #5340 of 10053 Old 10-21-2018, 02:48 PM
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Thanks for the great info. Also an interesting option for interconnects. I’ll go through these and see if I can add to the shortlist!
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Scaramanga View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post
Thanks Shankar - yes, I was concerned about the impact on a dynamic range of having to adjust the volume digitally - I don’t know if there are other ways of doing it with any of the speaker options, or by expanding the bit depth in the Trinnov?
It is an interesting question that RDJAM poses.

I guess until someone has a system with both capabilities that a/bing will point to the answer.

One cannot compare a meridian to a Dagostino Alexa combo, so there is overkill bias going on with our friend's comparison.

I was planning on an altitude 16 Kii Three 12.2 ch Living Room cinema with 4 tops, so I went to the Toronto Audio Fair to listen to the Kii Threes with BXT.

For sure the excellent Trinnov Alcons Digital combination proves that the trinnov volume works extremely well. Then there are the new quested that take dante losslesly and feeds the woofers from the digital amp but output xlr's to have better a/b, a or triodes to drive the amt's.

What I came out after listening to the Kiis and a new elac powered column speaker from Andrew Jones, for my Living room cinema, is that despite great strides the best ncore amp lacks the warmth and emotion when applied to the midrange and tweeter. It is an impression, but the Dynaudio digital speakers lack the same finesse when compared to the classic line, to my ears. Andrew Jones seems to arrive to similar conclusions in this youtube.


The Kiis are an excellent speaker system for a 12 channel all digital setup, due to their unique cardioid dsp design they sound better the next time you hear them, [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] but.. the ELACS discussed by the editors here in the bookshelf form are amazing active a/b powered ("CHAD"? amp designs).



https://darko.audio/2018/05/andrew-t...high-end-2018/

The ELAC 2k columns will get best sound in show in a Canadian Magazine (I overheard), look it up next week. The name of the active line was going to be argos but now it will be something like Nauticus as Argos was Taken.

So my plan is now Trinnov Alt 16 with aes67 dante (LOSSLESS DANTE IS TOTALLY LOSSLESS) going to the speaker location and locally converting to a dac behind the speakers. in a 9.1.6. And like in the Trinnov Alcons combo which is FLAWLESS, use the trinnov digital volume. As dacs get better it is an easy future upgrade.

So I am recommending after consideration, trinnov network digital out, local dac and active speakers, te elacs are meridian killers in some ways but there are a ton of quality active speakers out there, this gives me the best of all worlds, i hope.
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