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post #5581 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
but it is a very scary place when you enter the system for the first time.
.........and the 2nd time ....... and the 3rd time .........!!
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post #5582 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
.........and the 2nd time ....... and the 3rd time .........!!
It's actually still a bit scary; but at least I know where to look and what to adjust to get required output (I don't know everything, still learning - but I suspect I have been digging down in the deep more than most professional installers).

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post #5583 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
It's actually still a bit scary; but at least I know where to look and what to adjust to get required output (I don't know everything, still learning - but I suspect I have been digging down in the deep more than most professional installers).
Our examples are why some dealers just won't touch this product. We are learning on a continual basis where a dealer might sell and setup a few of these per year!! Hard to remember how to navigate when you only get infrequent access.
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post #5584 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Our examples are why some dealers just won't touch this product. We are learning on a continual basis where a dealer might sell and setup a few of these per year!! Hard to remember how to navigate when you only get infrequent access.


Most of them just do a basic calibration so u could have the best from this beast I will be look to someone who can give me the best of my system later


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post #5585 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Most of them just do a basic calibration so u could have the best from this beast I will be look to someone who can give me the best of my system later


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The better dealers that I do some work for realize that they don't have the expertise/experience/equipment, and it is cheaper for them and a better result for their client to sub that work out.

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post #5586 of 7571 Old 12-01-2018, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The better dealers that I do some work for realize that they don't have the expertise/experience/equipment, and it is cheaper for them and a better result for their client to sub that work out.


In the US is much much easy to find people like u and other and all respect calibrator Here where I lived it’s hard and u need bring people across the border to do it


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post #5587 of 7571 Old 12-02-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
In the US is much much easy to find people like u and other and all respect calibrator Here where I lived it’s hard and u need bring people across the border to do it


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From what I understand its possible to hook up the 3d mic and have a remote calibration done via VNC from France?

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post #5588 of 7571 Old 12-02-2018, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
From what I understand its possible to hook up the 3d mic and have a remote calibration done via VNC from France?

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With the precision that is required for mic placement alone, that would be an interesting approach. Possible? Maybe. Efficient? Not very! And it completely eliminates a trained set of ears.
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post #5589 of 7571 Old 12-02-2018, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The better dealers that I do some work for realize that they don't have the expertise/experience/equipment, and it is cheaper for them and a better result for their client to sub that work out.
I think that as the HAA certification workshops (i.e. the five day sequence I took in September after CEDIA) becomes a future requirement for Trinnov dealers as a prerequisite for the Advanced Trinnov training and the company's own certification process for dealers, you'll incrementally see more systematic advice about calibration, basic setup and the capabilities of the Altitude as time goes, which will only benefit Altitude 16 and more casual Altitude 32 buyers that aren't outsourcing all the work to the pros.

It hopefully will be less of what Audioguy cited about the pro dealer world to date of the chicken-and-egg connection between willingness to sell a complex processor and the support skills, and more of a "generally accepted principle" approach that every dealer selling an Altitude will have to have at least some familiarity with to sell the processor and conduct basic setup to get in the game. At this price point, that should be a given. Not just to sell more units, but for Trinnov to protect their brand equity as a leader in product support.

Adam, of course, taught the HTIII class for Advanced Calibration (which is more about applying principles taught in the HTI/II class, applying the critical listening dimensions for evaluation of changes using consistent content, and functioning in a small group/team environment than Trinnov per se). Looking at the Home Acoustics Alliance site over the weekend, I happened to see that there's going to be a private dealer-only workshop in Paris for Trinnov dealers, which will directly (upon certification to HTIII) flow into the two-day Trinnov dealer Advanced training put on by Trinnov itself. I hope that becomes the new normal.

Personally, I think that every Trinnov user should have pro level assistance in having their room set up as a prerequisite of purchase, and not just "set and forget" once with a Calibration Wizard, but that's just me. Given patience and an experienced calibrator or professional familiar with Trinnov gear on the other end, a VNC/remote calibration is doable at least at the level of the Calibration Wizard and a "Turbo Cal" with the Optimizer, so to speak (yes, that's an inside joke).

Whether or not you want to stop there is a judgment call. For what I personally paid, I know I wouldn't have, which is why I had Curt Hoyt fly in for two days in 2017. Sure I tweaked much of what he did with added speakers, REW measurements, and listening, but you have to start from a solid baseline on the "there may be dragons" settings to get there if you want more than just that "80% experience". And that was after a couple of years of the late, great Sherwood R-972 with Trinnov lite on DSP.
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post #5590 of 7571 Old 12-03-2018, 04:00 AM
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I think there is a very thin balance between all of the certification and training that you are suggesting that Trinnov might demand of their dealer network and a "Trinnov going out of business sale". I would be surprised if anything but a very small number of integrators would be willing to invest the time and resources to acquire that level of expertise.

If Trinnov demands (bad idea as far as I'm concerned) that their products only be installed "professionally", they will end up losing some sales to those who are inclined to want to do their own thing. But, at the very least, that "professional calibration" option should come from either a "rent" (e.g. Adam, Curt, Mark) or "buy" (in-house trained person).

I am probably not a good example. I spent 10 years (or more) flying around the US doing installs and calibrations (in homes and recording studios) of the original digital room correction product (SigTech). Subsequent to that, I have calibrated quite a few individual systems and prior to acquiring the Trinnov, owned and calibrated Datasat processors for myself and others. The Datasat does not have the menu complexity of the Trinnov but it most certainly does have a lot of powerful functionality so that the end results can be quite stunning. And a lot of what I learned from the RS20i was very transferrable to the Trinnov.

The combination of that experience made me quite comfortable that, should I have chosen to install my Trinnov "Adam-less", I would have been able to EVENTUALLY achieve results much higher than the 80% you suggested. And now that I have diddled with this device for a few months, I am even more comfortable that I could have achieved excellent results. I chose to use Adam's services because I did not know how long "eventually" would be and had no interest in waiting for how many ever months it would have taken me to get to the level of understanding (and movie/music enjoyment) that I have now reached.

That said, I am REALLY glad I did utilize Adam's services up front. He set up all of those areas where I was told I should keep my hands off - and I had settings and various presets that worked from which I could learn and explore and experiment. I now have a much better understand of how all of the pieces fit together - at least those I am comfortable playing with. Am I as qualified as Adam? Nope!! Not even close. And even if I was as smart as he is in the area of acoustics (I'm not), I don't have the patience to spend the time he does when he does his thing. (We do have a few things in common: my degree is also in applied math and we are both males -- and married!!) But I am more than comfortable that I could now go to someone's home and assist them in getting their Trinnov system running and achieving excellent results - probably not Adam results, but way more than good enough.

All of that to say, I hope Trinnov uses good common sense in deciding how they want to move in the direction of training of their dealers. In house (integrator's house) or 3rd party qualified calibrators should most certainly be "highly encouraged" but I think "demanding" the dealer go that route would not be in the best interest of Trinnov.

And I still think "remote calibration" is less than a great idea. Measurements will tell me a lot - but without being in the room and actually listening, I am 100% confident that optimum results could not and would not be achieved.
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post #5591 of 7571 Old 12-03-2018, 05:31 PM
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I just added an Altitude16 and a couple of speakers to my theater....now 11.1.4.

I'm guessing 80% out of the Trinnov in well designed acoustically treated room could sound better than 100% in a "bad" room. Both customers could very well be satisfied with their purchase, however.

Not everyone has the same expectations, preferences, financial considerations, etc., with regards to their home theater. Personally I could not justify the substantial investment in a Trinnov without making sure I got 100% out of it. That's one of the reasons why I hired Adam. The other is his continued customer support.

I didn't have a "bad" theater to begin with as it was designed from the ground up, with Adam doing the original calibration, so I wasn't 100% sure what the addition of a Trinnov would bring. I'm glad to say the Trinnov, and Adam, did make a significant improvement to my theater's 3D sound....even for these old ears.
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post #5592 of 7571 Old 12-03-2018, 05:51 PM
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Can the Trinnov platform host a VST, RTAS or AAX plugin? That would put them in a very special league.

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post #5593 of 7571 Old 12-04-2018, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Can the Trinnov platform host a VST, RTAS or AAX plugin? That would put them in a very special league.
Not that I am aware of. That might be something that the Pro Audio line of equipment would be *capable* of though, as it is intended for mix monitoring etc, but not anything that I have heard mentioned.

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post #5594 of 7571 Old 12-04-2018, 04:10 PM
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Tested out the Brüel & Kjær curve on the Altitude32, sounds pretty good actually.
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post #5595 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Tested out the Brüel & Kjær curve on the Altitude32, sounds pretty good actually.
Yep, I set up a B & K curve to try it out a few months back, its not ideal for movies, but its sounds great in my room with music.
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post #5596 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 05:14 AM
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Yep, I set up a B & K curve to try it out a few months back, its not ideal for movies, but its sounds great in my room with music.

I have a similar but not the same curve given to me to try out by Jon @ Trinnov. So far, I like it better for movies but prefer flat for music; there must be a 180 phase difference between your ears & mine My guess is my late 60's yrs old hearing "automatically" rolls off highs so I need more crispness coming at me to begin with! I think your curve seems to have less abrupt cut starting in the midrange with not as steep a roll-off so I need to try your B&K curve & compare.

Plus I know my subs aren't optimized yet. I love the ability to try different target curves.
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post #5597 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 06:49 AM
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I have a similar but not the same curve given to me to try out by Jon @ Trinnov. So far, I like it better for movies but prefer flat for music; there must be a 180 phase difference between your ears & mine My guess is my late 60's yrs old hearing "automatically" rolls off highs so I need more crispness coming at me to begin with! I think your curve seems to have less abrupt cut starting in the midrange with not as steep a roll-off so I need to try your B&K curve & compare.

Plus I know my subs aren't optimized yet. I love the ability to try different target curves.

Yep, hearing ability and preferred higher frequency roll off are definitely related I think. My early 40's hearing fortunately is still fairly good out to around 14-16Khz, so I definitely can't listen flat, it sounds far too bright and harsh.

I like less roll off in movies than in music, as I think a bit of higher frequency energy makes things a bit more live and visceral for movie content. Likewise the B & K curve is a little lacking in bass for movie content also. But for music the slightly higher roll off of the B & K curve makes it sound a little more relaxed and natural (to me).

This is my movie curve - it still needs tweaking further, but its my current starting point - its similar to yours.

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post #5598 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 08:57 AM
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Mine are similar as well. I start the "up lift" around 250Hz. Since I, too, have "old ears" I can't hear the higher frequencies so tend to roll them off as the speaker naturally rolls off. In the case of my heights, I roll them off more aggressively above 10K since their directivity, even aimed at the MLP, is less than perfect in these speakers and have no interest in blowing tweeters.
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post #5599 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 09:09 AM
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post #5600 of 7571 Old 12-05-2018, 11:27 AM
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I have modified my curve slightly with slightly less rolloff.
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Anyone think a "copy (or save) target" function would be beneficial?

I'm not necessarily talking about within the same Preset (though why not?) but rather between two different Presets. Yes, I know I can copy the entire preset but there are reasons I would only want to copy just a target or all of the channel targets.

If more than just me thinking this, then maybe we could ask Trinnov.

Dirac with the Datasat allowed you to save (and recall) Targets by name and that approach would work very well.

EDIT:

@Mark Seaton @appelz @Curt_Trinnov Your comments? I know at least Mark and Adam have used the Datasat so you have a basis of comparison.
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post #5602 of 7571 Old 12-06-2018, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Anyone think a "copy (or save) target" function would be beneficial?

Yes, and what about being able to copy the calibration itself to multiple presets? While you can copy a preset, make changes and save, it seems to me that it may be easier to just clone a calibration in some cases. Rather than go into particulars of some specific things I've been thinking of, in general wouldn't this also be a benefit, instead of being forced into a new calibration - like accidentally wiping a cal out before you had a chance to make a backup or the new preset? (which happened to me out of ignorance when I first started).


Just thinking aloud...

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post #5603 of 7571 Old 12-06-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Anyone think a "copy (or save) target" function would be beneficial?

I'm not necessarily talking about within the same Preset (though why not?) but rather between two different Presets. Yes, I know I can copy the entire preset but there are reasons I would only want to copy just a target or all of the channel targets.

If more than just me thinking this, then maybe we could ask Trinnov.

Dirac with the Datasat allowed you to save (and recall) Targets by name and that approach would work very well.
Yes very much so - an ability to save and copy a target curve would be very useful. I bet the pro calibrators really hate. It being able to import their usual default curve.
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Yes very much so - an ability to save and copy a target curve would be very useful. I bet the pro calibrators really hate. It being able to import their usual default curve.
I pushed this feature request to Trinnov; since I would like this as well
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post #5605 of 7571 Old 12-06-2018, 03:07 PM
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Feedback already.

Quote:
Thanks for your request.

The ability to save and load target curves is something that has been requested in the past and therefore already on our roadmap although not a top priority as we speak.

We will keep you informed in due time about future releases.
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post #5606 of 7571 Old 12-06-2018, 04:33 PM
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In mid November 2018 Deutsche Grammophon released a remastered version of Beethoven's 9 Symphonies (Herbert von Karajan's 1975-1977 cycle) on blu ray Dolby Atmos. When I put this on it lit up 18 channels. IIRC the configuration was 2 Front Heights, 2 Rear Heights, 2 Front Tops,
2 Rear Tops, 2 Wides plus the 7.1. This remaster really breathed new life into the Karajan recordings. Yes they still suffer from 1970's technology but you get as close to Karajan and thus Beethoven as currently available IMHO. Thanks to Trinnov (Altitude32) and the system calibration by Curt Hoyt I get to close my eyes and travel back 8 December 1813 Vienna for the premier of Beethoven's 7th. DG didn't provide any specifics about this remaster only that it was Atmos but Karajan, like Beethoven, was a perfectionist and used multiple mic's to capture his recordings. Sorry if this post sounds wistful but I am an audiophile and love Beethoven.


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post #5607 of 7571 Old 12-06-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryArthur View Post
In mid November 2018 Deutsche Grammophon released a remastered version of Beethoven's 9 Symphonies (Herbert von Karajan's 1975-1977 cycle) on blu ray Dolby Atmos. When I put this on it lit up 18 channels. IIRC the configuration was 2 Front Heights, 2 Rear Heights, 2 Front Tops,
2 Rear Tops, 2 Wides plus the 7.1. This remaster really breathed new life into the Karajan recordings. Yes they still suffer from 1970's technology but you get as close to Karajan and thus Beethoven as currently available IMHO. Thanks to Trinnov (Altitude32) and the system calibration by Curt Hoyt I get to close my eyes and travel back 8 December 1813 Vienna for the premier of Beethoven's 7th. DG didn't provide any specifics about this remaster only that it was Atmos but Karajan, like Beethoven, was a perfectionist and used multiple mic's to capture his recordings. Sorry if this post sounds wistful but I am an audiophile and love Beethoven.


Gary
Hi Gary,
Are you aware of any more classical releases in an Atmos format? Just curious...always willing to try something new....
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post #5608 of 7571 Old 12-07-2018, 03:46 AM
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Beethoven's 9th - my all time favorite piece of classical music...I will be getting that Atmos BD! I have the complete box set on LP's of van Karajan performances of Beethoven symphonies and the same recording of the 9th on DG SACD. I had no idea it was remastered yet again for Atmos so thanks for letting us know.


Edit - I found on amazon and learned it's all 9 symphonies not just the 9th, which is a fantastic deal for $41.
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Last edited by ss9001; 12-07-2018 at 04:15 AM.
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post #5609 of 7571 Old 12-07-2018, 04:28 AM
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post #5610 of 7571 Old 12-07-2018, 10:13 AM
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Check these out for "classical" recordings in Atmos!

http://www.audiophile.no/en/music/re...-recurrence-en

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015S22PAW...ing=UTF8&psc=1 I have this recording. Some of the cuts are magnificent (assuming you like this kind of music).

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/experien...les-global.pdf

Thanks for the links I have some and some I need to purchase.
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