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post #5611 of 7530 Old 12-07-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Anyone think a "copy (or save) target" function would be beneficial?

I'm not necessarily talking about within the same Preset (though why not?) but rather between two different Presets. Yes, I know I can copy the entire preset but there are reasons I would only want to copy just a target or all of the channel targets.

If more than just me thinking this, then maybe we could ask Trinnov.

Dirac with the Datasat allowed you to save (and recall) Targets by name and that approach would work very well.

EDIT:

@Mark Seaton @appelz @Curt_Trinnov Your comments? I know at least Mark and Adam have used the Datasat so you have a basis of comparison.
I also support that request.

As I am a new user I assumed that the copy and save target curve functionality was there somewhere and I asked Trinnov support how to do it only 3 days ago. I was surprised when I was told that functionality does not currently exist.

I am really struggling with another configuration issue.

My sources have differing lip sync delays. Initially I thought that this could be accommodated using the automation protocol but there is currently no command to adjust the delays

I was advised by Trinnov to set up each source and associate it with a preset with the applicable delay.

From what I can figure out, doing it that way means that the delay is tied to a particular room correction measurement and other settings in the preset.

This makes things very awkward as I need at least 4 different source delay values and I would also like to have at least 3 room correction presets to cater for sweet spot, 2 measurement points and 4 measurement points. I would then select the appropriate preset according to how many viewers I have at the time

Am I misunderstanding this or has someone solved this problem ?

Ideally, I would like to be able to associate the delay with the source and then individually select the preset containing the desired room correction profile.

From my perspective, the current arrangement of having all settings associated with a preset is illogical and very restrictive.

I am coming from a Meridian 861 and appreciate that the Altitude blows the Meridian away in almost all respects but the Meridian was more logical regarding this and in addition the delay could be changed on the fly via the automation protocol.

The Meridian had the delay tied to the source as it should be, and all other sound attributes including room correction profile could be individually controlled

I would appreciate other users views on this
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post #5612 of 7530 Old 12-07-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Yes, and what about being able to copy the calibration itself to multiple presets? While you can copy a preset, make changes and save, it seems to me that it may be easier to just clone a calibration in some cases. Rather than go into particulars of some specific things I've been thinking of, in general wouldn't this also be a benefit, instead of being forced into a new calibration - like accidentally wiping a cal out before you had a chance to make a backup or the new preset? (which happened to me out of ignorance when I first started).
This is one area where working outside the Calibration Wizard is helpful, and just doing things within the Optimizer menus. You can simply take one preset, copy it to another work preset, then run a calibration inside the Optimizer on the work preset. It's not going to overwrite anything unless you save it. You can also, on the Presets sub-menu, go to your master calibration that you don't want to change, and simply click on the lock button for that preset (i.e. the circle box under the lock column).

If you want to keep some of the target curves but not all of them (for example, in a 7.1 setup keep LCR and subs as is, but change the target curve for, say, just the side and rear surrounds), you can toggle in the Optimizer to Target Curves, then one by one go through to speakers where you want to change the curve and link them together, using the Link function. Once you have those speakers linked together, simply edit the target curve to taste. When you're certain it's what you want, go to the linked speakers and individually unlink them by clicking on the Link button to clear it.

For what it's worth, when you learn your way around these type of functions, the individual save/load target curve concept is going seem more like a nice to have than an essential part of productivity.

Not that I wouldn't mind having a loadable target curve labeled as "Harman Curve" to save time, along the lines of the loadable PEQ files, but there are functional features I'd much rather have, such as being able to use the Frequency Limiter for the acoustic correction on individual speakers rather than be hard-wired as a global concept. Or using the technology of the 3D mic to make combined speaker/sub amplitude, direct sound, and phase measurements with bass management engaged after acoustic correction, ala the enthusiasts on the REW thread. Being able to do so on an optional, separate set of measurements for selected speakers, and to also apply measurement positional weights for spatial averaging, would be fantastic.
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post #5613 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 05:21 AM
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Stu: I don't (even know how to) use the Wizard so am very familiar with what you have described. And what you have described is exactly why I want copy/paste.

The method of linking some speakers and not all and re-doing different targets works but it very inefficient - and error prone. If you have ever used the save/load capability of, say, the Datasat, then you would quickly agree that the current method is sort of archaic.

And like so many other good things about the Trinnov, because all of the software and files are in the Trinnov itself, I can't image it would be super difficult for them to implement (easy for me to say . In the case of the Datasat, all of those files are stored on the PC with which you ran Dirac. These saved targets would need to be able to be accessed "globally" so I could get at a target (or group of targets) that were saved from within one Preset but accessed while I was in another.

And this statement:

Quote:
For what it's worth, when you learn your way around these type of functions, the individual save/load target curve concept is going seem more like a nice to have than an essential part of productivity.
While I don't claim to know my way around all of the functions as well as you, I have gotten much more familiar after diddling almost every day for the last 2 or 3 months (being retired has its upsides). I also think you will disagree with that statement once you have access to this capability. Lots of features are "nice to have" but to the extent a feature makes doing the work more productive and less error prone, then, to me, it is a worthwhile add on.

And FWIW, I know Jon Herron is familiar with this capability since I originally met him when he was with Wisdom Audio and using the Datasat. He likes the feature as well. He has already informed me the capability is on the "list of things to do" but probably won't make it on the next release. That is about all I can ask for.

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post #5614 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 05:58 AM
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Stu, all great information, thank you for the tips and steps! For the record, I haven't used the wizard since the 1st time I rooted around on my own early on. Jon showed me the normal GUI and after the mishap with the wizard accidentally wiping out my main preset even though it was supposedly locked, I haven't touched it since. I use and am committed to learning the main GUI so your steps will be handy.

While there is usually a way (or workaround) to get most tasks done in software, if something can be made easier, more straightforward or less error-prone, then having such an enhancement benefits all. That's the way I see it anyway. I'm for any and all enhancements Trinnov wants to work on and give us. I also see the benefit of having freq limiters work as you describe, hopefully they'll work on that too.

BTW - I also was given the latest release candidate of the software and it's nice having the video output display correctly, all the video info (EDID, bit depth, colorspace, etc) available to see, the HDMI 1.4-2.0 choice menus and 12v trigger options. And I'm very pleased that it fixed my issue with no audio unless my Sony Oled display was actually turned on. Good job!

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post #5615 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
BTW - I also was given the latest release candidate of the software and it's nice having 12v trigger options.
That is a VERY helpful feature for me. Having 8 subs around the room is great for home theater but presents less than the perfect solution for music. There is a "thumpiness" in the bass (located around 40Hz to 50Hz - plus or minus) that displayed its ugly head on some music. One solution was a PEQ in that area but it had its downside.

With this function, when I select music, I turn off (via the 12V switch) the amp driving the rear subs and only use the 4 subs in front - 2 in each corner and all equidistant from the MLP. Set up new PEQs, re-run everything and presto: better bass and either less or no "thumpiness".
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post #5616 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Feedback already.
Yup, this has been a feature request for a while. Quite a few things have been added due to user/calibrator/manufacturer requests, so I expect this to happen one day for sure.

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post #5617 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That is a VERY helpful feature for me. Having 8 subs around the room is great for home theater but presents less than the perfect solution for music. There is a "thumpiness" in the bass (located around 40Hz to 50Hz - plus or minus) that displayed its ugly head on some music. One solution was a PEQ in that area but it had its downside.

With this function, when I select music, I turn off (via the 12V switch) the amp driving the rear subs and only use the 4 subs in front - 2 in each corner and all equidistant from the MLP. Set up new PEQs, re-run everything and presto: better bass and either less or no "thumpiness".
You could of course just have a different profile for music; where you have excluded the 4 subs in the back.

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post #5618 of 7530 Old 12-08-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
You could of course just have a different profile for music; where you have excluded the 4 subs in the back.
The subs are powered on via the Trinnov 12 volt outputs - one for the front subs and the other for the rear subs. They are connected on one channel of the Trinnov via a miniDSP that splits the signal and delays the rear subs. The only way to use Just the front subs is exactly what this feature provides: to turn them off via the 12V switch. If the two sets of subs were on different outputs of the Trinnov, this feature would not be the way to address this issue.
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post #5619 of 7530 Old 12-09-2018, 04:46 PM
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Adjusting Target Curves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Tested out the Brüel & Kjær curve on the Altitude32, sounds pretty good actually.

OK I am new to the Trinnov Altitude 32. I like to try out new target curves but you seem to have more adjustable dots in different places than I do or that I've seen in other posted target curve screen prints. What am I missing?


Thanks,
John
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post #5620 of 7530 Old 12-09-2018, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demoleon View Post
OK I am new to the Trinnov Altitude 32. I like to try out new target curves but you seem to have more adjustable dots in different places than I do or that I've seen in other posted target curve screen prints. What am I missing?


Thanks,
John
Hi John,

Take a close look @Berland ’s screen. At the top, he’s in the “Optimizer Settings” tab, then @ the left side, the “Settings” tab. That’s where target curves are set up and yours should look the same. It’s possible you’re on one of the other EQ screens, which are used for other tasks and have fewer frequency points. You don’t want to use these for target curves.
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post #5621 of 7530 Old 12-09-2018, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoleon View Post
OK I am new to the Trinnov Altitude 32. I like to try out new target curves but you seem to have more adjustable dots in different places than I do or that I've seen in other posted target curve screen prints. What am I missing?


Thanks,
John
Hi John,

Take a close look @Berland ’s screen. At the top, he’s in the “Optimizer Settings” tab, then @ the left side, the “Settings” tab. That’s where target curves are set up and yours should look the same. It’s possible you’re on one of the other EQ screens, which are used for other tasks and have fewer frequency points. You don’t want to use these for target curves.
Yes, that's where I am.

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post #5622 of 7530 Old 12-09-2018, 06:06 PM
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Yes, that's where I am.
Please post a screenshot, John.
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post #5623 of 7530 Old 12-09-2018, 08:54 PM
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Here is my screen and the screen with the B&K curve posted earlier in this thread
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post #5624 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 05:18 AM
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Here is my screen and the screen with the B&K curve posted earlier in this thread
Interesting.

There are indeed differences between the two graphs on the number of points between, say, 1000hz and 20,000Hz. There is one additional point on Steve's curve. Same between some other points as well. I just checked and mine has the same number of points as does Steve's. I find that odd??
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post #5625 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Interesting.

There are indeed differences between the two graphs on the number of points between, say, 1000hz and 20,000Hz. There is one additional point on Steve's curve. Same between some other points as well. I just checked and mine has the same number of points as does Steve's. I find that odd??
You're running the new beta I believe aren't you Chuck, I think Berland is too - I'd wager that's the difference - didn't Trinnov add greater control below 20Hz in that update?
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post #5626 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 06:44 AM
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You're running the new beta I believe aren't you Chuck, I think Berland is too - I'd wager that's the difference - didn't Trinnov add greater control below 20Hz in that update?

I also have RC4 beta. However, my target was done several months ago before I was updated. I didn't compare the curve before & after so don't know what's the reason. Is there a way to add/remove points and move them around? Jon Herron created the curve for me remotely while I watched to learn how so it's nothing I did. Count me confused...

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post #5627 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 06:45 AM
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You're running the new beta I believe aren't you Chuck, I think Berland is too - I'd wager that's the difference - didn't Trinnov add greater control below 20Hz in that update?
I think Steve and I have the beta and that might explain the difference. But I thought the only difference was that the 10Hz point was now visible (though is always the same as the 20Hz point). But if Berland has the same software, then I am still confused.
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post #5628 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 06:50 AM
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I also have RC4 beta. However, my target was done several months ago before I was updated. I didn't compare the curve before & after so don't know what's the reason. Is there a way to add/remove points and move them around? Jon created the curve remotely while I watched so it's nothing I did for this curve.
I am not aware of anyway to move or delete points. And the fact that your curve was generated prior to the update does not change anything since when you did the update, the new target capabilities would still apply.

Not a big deal by any means but I still like what I could do on my RS20i. I generated as many points a necessary and could move them via the mouse vs the up/down arrow keys.
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post #5629 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 07:01 AM
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Well, you can add me to the confusion. I'm running the Beta, 4.2.11rc4 with the new functionalities, and my frequency points are just like demoleon's.


@Berland what's your software Revision?
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Well, you can add me to the confusion. I'm running the Beta, 4.2.11rc4 with the new functionalities, and my frequency points are just like demoleon's.


@Berland what's your software Revision?
Maybe it makes a difference if you set the minimum point on the target graph to 10Hz or 20Hz - do you have them set to 10Hz Ken?
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post #5631 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 07:11 AM
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Maybe it makes a difference if you set the minimum point on the target graph to 10Hz or 20Hz - do you have them set to 10Hz Ken?
Except that the two curves (Steve's and Demoleon's) both show the 10Hz point on the curves and they have different number of points between 1,000 and 20,000 (12 vs 13)?
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post #5632 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 07:15 AM
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Maybe it makes a difference if you set the minimum point on the target graph to 10Hz or 20Hz - do you have them set to 10Hz Ken?
Hey Gareth,

I tried a number of things which affect the 10-20Hz region e.g. highpass, IIR min frequency etc. and couldn't get any difference. Berland's the outlier, so let's see what rev he's running, then we can poke around with his settings vs. others.
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Maybe it makes a difference if you set the minimum point on the target graph to 10Hz or 20Hz - do you have them set to 10Hz Ken?



Jon Herron did install the release candidate on my system too so I am on 4.2.11rc4. I copied a preset that was created prior to the update to create the new test curves if that makes any difference.
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post #5634 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 08:00 AM
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...I copied a preset that was created prior to the update to create the new test curves if that makes any difference.
And.....there's the answer! Every pre-set I own was created by modifying an earlier preset (vs. restart using the built-in preset. If I go to the built-in preset, I now see three frequency points below 20Hz with which to play and subsequent points are shifted à la Berland's. This isn't good news since, as things stand, in order to have setpoints below 20Hz we may have to re-create the presets we created prior to the new software.

It sure would be sweet if Trinnov could find a way around this problem before the new software is actually released.
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post #5635 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
And.....there's the answer! Every pre-set I own was created by modifying an earlier preset (vs. restart using the built-in preset. If I go to the built-in preset, I now see three frequency points below 20Hz with which to play and subsequent points are shifted à la Berland's. This isn't good news since, as things stand, in order to have setpoints below 20Hz we may have to re-create the presets we created prior to the new software.

It sure would be sweet if Trinnov could find a way around this problem before the new software is actually released.
Nice detective work Ken!

Yes, they need to take a closer look at this, we don't want to have to start redoing all the presets to take advantage of the points below 20Hz!

Indeed I second Chuck's sentiments, we should be able to create any points (and any number of points on the target curve that we like really, ala Dirac.
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post #5636 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 08:22 AM
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I don't mind recreating target curves but everything else in the preset would need to be re-created yet again ... which I have no intention of doing. Even more reason to need the target curve save/load function!!
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post #5637 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
...we should be able to create any points (and any number of points on the target curve that we like really, ala Dirac.
I had that feature on my TacT, as did Chuck, and IMHO it has advantages and disadvantages. For very linear target curves, it's ideal, but not so great for sketching curves.

In re: solutions to this new wrinkle, it occurs to me that the much-discussed Target Curve import/export function would be mighty handy right about now.
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post #5638 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 08:33 AM
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I sure appreciate the fact that there are some super power owners in this thread! You folks, like RUR (Ken) & Stu, who were in on the ground floor with Curt and with multiple yrs of experience are a big help. Sherlock Ken!

I can see the value of what Chuck has asked for with this real world example with the target curve's points being different. Hope that Trinnov can provide this feature.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 12-10-2018 at 10:23 AM.
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post #5639 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Well, you can add me to the confusion. I'm running the Beta, 4.2.11rc4 with the new functionalities, and my frequency points are just like demoleon's.


@Berland what's your software Revision?
I'm on 4.2.11rc4
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post #5640 of 7530 Old 12-10-2018, 10:42 AM
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I'm on 4.2.11rc4
Yep, and you created your earlier-posted screenshot using the built-in preset in 4.2.11rc4, yes?
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