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post #6151 of 9270 Old 02-10-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
So the Vertex is still on my to-buy list once I get sufficiently motivated to finally resolve the issue.
That's my issue but comes before re-doing the tangled mess of speaker wires, interconnects, HDMI cables, power cords, 12v cables and Ethernet cables behind my equipment rack since all of the changes I have made in the last year or so. The thought of even starting down that road again is petrifying given it took probably 60 or 70 hours last time (all day, every day for more than a full week to get it done!!)

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post #6152 of 9270 Old 02-10-2019, 04:52 PM
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There are at least two products, both from HD Fury that accomplish what I want. And I am pretty sure, after some initial research, that there are some intelligent HDMI switchers that will provide that function as well.
I run my Oppo 203 into this splitter so that I have both a 4k and a 2k output live all the time -- thus the Oppo thinks it's always got a 4k device connected. The 2k output goes to the Audio system, and carries Atmos, etc. Probably less flexible than the Fury, but way less money.
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post #6153 of 9270 Old 02-10-2019, 10:02 PM
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I run my Oppo 203 into this splitter so that I have both a 4k and a 2k output live all the time -- thus the Oppo thinks it's always got a 4k device connected. The 2k output goes to the Audio system, and carries Atmos, etc. Probably less flexible than the Fury, but way less money.
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Thanks. You are THE man. Just ordered one from Amazon. I will use it to take the output from my Oppo and split it. One going to my 1080P display and the other going to my Trinnov then onto the JVC 4K. Perfect.

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post #6154 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Lyngdorf MP-50/McIntosh MX160 also doesn't downsample and RP operates on all channels up to 384kHz/32bit.
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
AFAIK, 384kHz/32 I/O with no SRC would require 4x the processing power necessary for 192kHz. Can you point us to the Lyngdorf literature claiming this, Ducky?
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Info from Lyngdorf.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post54557854

It has 8 DSPs, which I'm sure helps.
Like RUR I was skeptical as well. I read the post at the link you posted, thanks for that. Seeing as that was from mid 2017 I'm still skeptical because that seems like quite the accomplishment in DSP for back then. It would be quite an accomplishment for DSP even today still. I'm wondering if there was possibly confusion and mix up of DAC resolution and internal processing resolution. Jut a thought. If they are truly running at up to 384/32 internally (all channels, not just 2) then hats off to them for being able to do that because that's even more than the Altitude32 can do with it's i7.

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post #6155 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 06:55 AM
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Like RUR I was skeptical as well. I read the post at the link you posted, thanks for that. Seeing as that was from mid 2017 I'm still skeptical because that seems like quite the accomplishment in DSP for back then. It would be quite an accomplishment for DSP even today still. I'm wondering if there was possibly confusion and mix up of DAC resolution and internal processing resolution. Jut a thought. If they are truly running at up to 384/32 internally (all channels, not just 2) then hats off to them for being able to do that because that's even more than the Altitude32 can do with it's i7.
Me too. Could this be like Audyssey theoretically able to process at 96/24 but in practice 48/24? I looked at the McIntosh MX160 web info, the manual & specs and found zero reference to a 384khz sampling capability with or without RP.

One would think that if it had that capability in the hardware & software implementation, it would be a widely advertised feature to set it apart from competitors.

Edit -
Putting my geek hat on The Lyngdorf MP has 8 DSP's @ 400 MIPS ea = 3200 MIPS total per their web info
An Intel i7 4770K @ 3.9Ghz (can't recall which model i7 the A32 has, so picked this one) = 133,740 MIPS

No matter which model i7 cpu the Alt32 has, its MIPS capability is at least dozens of times the power of those DSP's.

Unless RoomPerfect has extremely streamlined algorithms code-wise (or much more basic in what it does), it's hard to fathom how 8 DSP chips can outperform an i7 cpu.

I remember how Pioneer tauted its MCACC as not downsampling vs Audyssey, but it was only a 9 band graphic EQ'r with no sub EQ, with some standing wave, phase & group delay adjustments bolted on - not close to all the filters and adjustments Dirac & Trinnov do.

The Lyndorf does have up to 384kHz/16 bit input capability for aiff files only, everything else is limited to 192K. That's not the same as saying there's no downsampling with Room Perfect.

I'd like to see more hard evidence from the companies using Room Perfect. I would think they'd highly publicize this since no one else can do it.

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post #6156 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 07:52 AM
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I'd like to see more hard evidence from the companies using Room Perfect. I would think they'd highly publicize this since no one else can do it.
Everything I see written about the MP-50 seems to be an exercise in 'smoke and mirrors' - they rave about it being supremely quite as an all digital device, but then don't publish a single SNR spec.

Even with Roomperfect, we all know they can only be using established EQ principles; levels, delays, IIR an FIR filters, groups delays etc, otherwise they'd be dropping multiple patents, or releasing numerous white papers on the new ground they'd broken on acoustical theory. Instead they appear to like to write about it like it uses magical fairy dust instead. They make a big play that Roomperfect knows how to identify the speaker from the room, and yet they have a standard mic that will be unable to differentiate between direct and reflected sounds like a multi-capsule mic (such as the Trinnov one) can attempt to.

The MP-50 looks like a nicely made unit, and I'm sure it probably sounds good too - but I prefer a manufacturer being upfront on the specifications and capabilities of their device and how their system works, rather than shrouding it in marketing fluff.
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post #6157 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 08:42 AM
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Instead they appear to like to write about it like it uses magical fairy dust instead.
I was a huge fan of John Dunlavy - both the man and his products. His wife (Joan) was also a winner. He actually wanted me to buy his company and at a "reasonable" price except that without him, there was no company and I sure as heck know just a tad more than zero about designing and building speakers. Unfortunately, the firm to whom he sold his company knew little more than I did - and they went "toes up".

"Pixie Dust" and "Frou-Frou Dust" were two of his favorite expressions. While he most certainly listened, he was a scientist first and owned many patents in the field antenna design and, of course, audio. He was all about measurments and actually had two anechoic chambers in his offices - a smaller one for measuring drivers and the other for measuring speakers. I can't count the number of exotic wire designers who he fooled into thinking they were listening to their own wire (and waxed poetic about liquid mid ranges and extended high frequencies) but in fact, were listening to John's (very basic) wires -- and he never told them what he did. I could go on but your quote brought back some fun memories.

Sorry for the OT post.
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post #6158 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 09:00 AM
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I prefer a manufacturer being upfront on the specifications and capabilities of their device and how their system works, rather than shrouding it in marketing fluff.
OT but will give my own perspective of this issue.

I won't ever look at 2 well-known speaker companies again, who were founded by the same man, for that very reason - bogus specs. I wouldn't give his current company the time of a 1 min demo. Those who know me will probably know the companies. I even have one of his previous company's subs (not used in many yrs), a 12" that the company claimed 13Hz Fool me once...

Back on-topic
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post #6159 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 11:50 AM
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OT but will give my own perspective of this issue.

I won't ever look at 2 well-known speaker companies again, who were founded by the same man, for that very reason - bogus specs. I wouldn't give his current company the time of a 1 min demo. Those who know me will probably know the companies. I even have one of his previous company's subs (not used in many yrs), a 12" that the company claimed 13Hz Fool me once...

Back on-topic
Same here, and I owned two of his speakers for years until I did REW measurements and realized that there was no way to achieve smooth on-axis (let alone off-axis) performance except by bumping bass problems up or down the frequency curve, rather than improving upon them with the speaker technology.

Having said that, for speakers from these companies without that bass technology, they work perfectly fine if you place and measure them accordingly.

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post #6160 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 11:59 AM
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Everything I see written about the MP-50 seems to be an exercise in 'smoke and mirrors' - they rave about it being supremely quite as an all digital device, but then don't publish a single SNR spec.
Hate to interrupt your rant about Lyngdorf, but the SNR is clearly stated here: http://lyngdorf.com/wp-content/uploa...ember-2017.pdf

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post #6161 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 12:09 PM
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^^
That's fine but where in print do they state the processor and/or Room Perfect doesn't downsample and processes all channels at 384khz?

I saw the same table, white papers, web info and nowhere that I saw do they claim this. Again, if they really can do 384Khz internal processing, it would be something no other processor can do and I would expect them to proudly advertise it. Maybe I'm missing something.

Steve

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post #6162 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 12:23 PM
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^^
That's fine but where in print do they state the processor and/or Room Perfect doesn't downsample and can process all channels at 384khz?

I saw the same table, white papers, web info and nowhere that I saw do they claim this. Again, if they really can do 384Khz internal processing, it would be something no other processor mfg can do and I would expect them to proudly proclaim it.

Bold claims require bold proof
I never said that it "was in print". All I said was that Lyngdorf has stated it and provided the link. I personally couldn't care less if it really is 384kHz for all channels.

Could the info be wrong or misunderstood? Sure, but I don't have any 384kHz sources to test it.

The bottom line is that it can be included in the list of processors that doesn't downsample with RC. That was the whole point of my original comment. Whether the upper limit is 192kHz or 384kHz ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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post #6163 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 05:30 PM
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^^
That's fine but where in print do they state the processor and/or Room Perfect doesn't downsample and processes all channels at 384khz?

I saw the same table, white papers, web info and nowhere that I saw do they claim this. Again, if they really can do 384Khz internal processing, it would be something no other processor can do and I would expect them to proudly advertise it. Maybe I'm missing something.
My friend Lon has a Lyngdorf TD2170 for a few years now and luvs it. He had it set with ROON inputting DSD and also at either 384 or 352k for PCM, as it accepts those rates. Then last year I read on some audio forum where at least two members posted they checked with Lyngdorf and were advised the internal processing was at 96k. So he reset ROON to 96k (88k for DSD and DXD stuff) and it sounds better that way! I don't think I've ever seen any manufacturer of a SSP as well as many standalone DAC manufacturers who tell you the internal processing rate (except for a few) but they do tell you what the SSP or DAC will accept in terms of PCM and if applicable DSD.

Now Trinnov outright tells you that the Altitude 16 internally processes up to 96k but will sound best processing the native rate up to 96-24 that is input. And that the Altitude 42 internally processes up to 192k but again will sound best processing the native rate up to 192k that is input - whether there is a limit on how many channels will derive 192k from two channel 192k say using ROON that I'm not sure of.

Theta Digital (ATI) will tell you upront that the internal processing is at 96k for the CBIV-A & CBIV SSP but 48k for the CBIIIHD SSP.

The upcoming Monoprice (mfg by ATI) SSP and similar but a bit upgraded ATI SSPs will process internally at 48k.

I'm not talking about how high a PCM or DSD signal they can accept and convert/downsample, but the internal processing per the DSP chip!

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post #6164 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 06:04 PM
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I'm not talking about how high a PCM or DSD signal they can accept and convert/downsample, but the internal processing per the DSP chip!
Agreed!

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at least two members posted they checked with Lyngdorf and were advised the internal processing was at 96k.
Seems to in part contradict the generalized belief-statement that Room Perfect & the Lyngdorf "doesn't downsample". If your info is correct, then that generalized statement is true only IF it's fed a sampling rate that's <=96Khz (just like the Alt16). Any higher rate PCM or "equivalent" DSD (say >DSD64) audio input signal by definition will be downsampled/converted to what the DSP handles (just like the Alt16), which has nothing to do with the DAC's capability or the input connection used.

Your added info confirms that semantics & details are important

Thanks, Steve

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post #6165 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 08:38 PM
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Same here, and I owned two of his speakers for years until I did REW measurements and realized that there was no way to achieve smooth on-axis (let alone off-axis) performance except by bumping bass problems up or down the frequency curve, rather than improving upon them with the speaker technology.

Having said that, for speakers from these companies without that bass technology, they work perfectly fine if you place and measure them accordingly.
What is the speaker company you guys are referring to...just curious.

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post #6166 of 9270 Old 02-11-2019, 08:43 PM
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Now Trinnov outright tells you that the Altitude 16 internally processes up to 96k but will sound best processing the native rate up to 96-24 that is input. And that the Altitude 42 internally processes up to 192k but again will sound best processing the native rate up to 192k that is input - whether there is a limit on how many channels will derive 192k from two channel 192k say using ROON that I'm not sure of.

Theta Digital (ATI) will tell you upront that the internal processing is at 96k for the CBIV-A & CBIV SSP but 48k for the CBIIIHD SSP.

The upcoming Monoprice (mfg by ATI) SSP and similar but a bit upgraded ATI SSPs will process internally at 48k.

I'm not talking about how high a PCM or DSD signal they can accept and convert/downsample, but the internal processing per the DSP chip!
AFAIK, Trinnov Altitude is the only product that processes at the native rate...which is the "best" way to do it according to some. If native rate isn't used then there has to be sample rate conversion and my limited understanding is that src is less "good". Many products are slagged for having 48khz internal processing but most blurays for example are mastered in 48khz so it should be fine. Some of the cheaper Dirac solutions process at 48khz but the more expensive ones at 96khz...I'm not really sure why it would be better at the higher frequency. Hopefully I'll figure it out someday.

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post #6167 of 9270 Old 02-12-2019, 05:16 AM
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Seems more DTS:X capabilities are coming, finally a DTS:X implementation to fully compete with Dolby. Good job Trinnov!

https://www.widescreenreview.com/new...l.php?id=21551
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post #6168 of 9270 Old 02-12-2019, 06:07 AM
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Seems more DTS:X capabilities are coming, finally a DTS:X implementation to fully compete with Dolby. Good job Trinnov!

https://www.widescreenreview.com/new...l.php?id=21551
That is potentially good news. But the Trinnov has supported LOTS of channels for Atmos since the get-go but the studios/mixers continue to not take advantage of the possibilities. I can count on one hand (and maybe a few fingers) the number of movies I have purchased that seem to take advantage of high speaker counts!!

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That is potentially good news. But the Trinnov has supported LOTS of channels for Atmos since the get-go but the studios/mixers continue to not take advantage of the possibilities. I can count on one hand (and maybe a few fingers) the number of movies I have purchased that seem to take advantage of high speaker counts!!
One small difference may be that I *believe* DTS integrate upmixing within the native DTS:X codec, where as Dolby do not allow any upmixing of native Atmos (currently). There is a chance therefore, that DTS:X Pro will including upmixing to channels not included in the native mix.
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One small difference may be that I *believe* DTS integrate upmixing within the native DTS:X codec, where as Dolby do not allow any upmixing of native Atmos (currently). There is a chance therefore, that DTS:X Pro will including upmixing to channels not included in the native mix.
That would be sweet !!
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What is the speaker company you guys are referring to...just curious.

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That would be sweet !!
Yep, I'll be excited to try DTS:X Pro when we get it later this year. That said, it still leaves us with a critical dilemma; for those Atmos tracks with limited channel usage - do we continue to listen to them natively in Atmos, or upmix the 7.1 core with DTS:X Pro's version of Neural:X?!
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^^
In addition to Disney's hard coding to fixed 7.1.4, I see less-than-encouraging examples regarding physical media.

1. Apparently Sony will be releasing 4K Lawrence of Arabia only for download on itunes and with no HDR. No physical disc.

2. Highly acclaimed The Deerhunter in 4K, one of the best of the Vietnam war dramas, was only released in the UK in 2018. No US release on the horizon throughout 2019.

3. The years-long wait for Abyss & True Lies on even Blu-ray continues with no sign Cameron is ready, even IF the Disney-Fox conglomerate is still interested. They may never see the light of day.

One can consume only so many comic-book based movies. There are too many franchises, reboots, remakes, sequels, and combinations ad nauseum, I just pass on many of them or at least be selective.
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The years-long wait for Abyss & True Lies on even Blu-ray continues with no sign Cameron is ready, even IF the Disney-Fox conglomerate is still interested. They may never see the light of day.
I can't think of a better potential 3D audio candidate than The Abyss. Properly done, you would be underwater. One of my very favorite movies (at least the Director's Cut was as I never completely understood the version released in theaters).

I can only wonder if I will live long enough to see/hear either of those movies re-done in 4K/HDR and Atmos or DTS:X supporting a bunch of channels.
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #6175 of 9270 Old 02-12-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I can't think of a better potential 3D audio candidate than The Abyss. Properly done, you would be underwater.

+1 million!

Waiting for Abyss is similar to waiting for NASA to land humans on Mars. My dream is that SpaceX can pull it off since it doesn't look like NASA is going to in our lifetime, especially with the SLS program boondongle. Sorry for the OT but Abyss is one missing title that gets me riled up

Steve

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post #6176 of 9270 Old 02-12-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
a critical dilemma; for those Atmos tracks with limited channel usage - do we continue to listen to them natively in Atmos, or upmix the 7.1 core with DTS:X Pro's version of Neural:X?!
The answer is ........... "yes"

A really nice dilemma to worry about. I'll try it both ways and pick one. May be movie dependent.
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #6177 of 9270 Old 02-12-2019, 07:43 AM
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Forgoing Atmos and upmixing the 7.1 core - an interesting alternative. It just might be better once we get DTS-X Pro and we don't get the talked about Dolby lockdown.

Edit -

Widescreen Review has a glowing review of Bryston (Storm Audio) SP4 and the reviewer clearly loves Auro, preferring it to the current state of studio Atmos & DTS-X mixes. And prefers upmixing with it instead of playing native Atmos or DTS-X. Interesting. Here it is -

https://wsrpdfs.s3.amazonaws.com/236...gXLnZ3RNsQI%3D

Steve

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post #6178 of 9270 Old 02-15-2019, 03:55 PM
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I started trying Qobuz and noticed something odd: Roon is downsampling my 192KHz stream to 96KHz before sending it to the Trinnov. I understand that it generally won't play back 192KHz, but I'm certain it will accept it as input, and I'm also quite certain it would do a better job downsampling than Roon does. Going into the Roon setup, it doesn't seem to think the Trinnov can accept 192 so it's forcing the downsample. Is this a Roon problem or a Trinnov problem (like in the Roon interface inside Trinnov)?

Has anyone else experienced this? Do you know of a solution?

- Rob
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post #6179 of 9270 Old 02-15-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by radicalrob View Post
I started trying Qobuz and noticed something odd: Roon is downsampling my 192KHz stream to 96KHz before sending it to the Trinnov. I understand that it generally won't play back 192KHz, but I'm certain it will accept it as input, and I'm also quite certain it would do a better job downsampling than Roon does. Going into the Roon setup, it doesn't seem to think the Trinnov can accept 192 so it's forcing the downsample. Is this a Roon problem or a Trinnov problem (like in the Roon interface inside Trinnov)?

Has anyone else experienced this? Do you know of a solution?

- Rob
Forgot to mention - it's an Altitude-16
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post #6180 of 9270 Old 02-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Forgoing Atmos and upmixing the 7.1 core - an interesting alternative. It just might be better once we get DTS-X Pro and we don't get the talked about Dolby lockdown.

Edit -

Widescreen Review has a glowing review of Bryston (Storm Audio) SP4 and the reviewer clearly loves Auro, preferring it to the current state of studio Atmos & DTS-X mixes. And prefers upmixing with it instead of playing native Atmos or DTS-X. Interesting. Here it is -

https://wsrpdfs.s3.amazonaws.com/236...gXLnZ3RNsQI%3D
WSR is a charter member of the Auro fan club, and their bias toward the format has been no surprise for at least the last four years. Doug Blackburn would upmix anything to Auromatic that he could, if he couldn't get it in a native Auro mix.

Not that I've tried this, but if there's only a choice between stereo and Atmos/DTS:X mixes on a BD or UHD, you can try setting the mix to the 3D audio format and output it as PCM rather than Bitstream on your source player, if that's an option it supports (e.g. Oppo). In theory, that should strip off the object metadata and just give you 5.1 or 7.1 output that you can upmix to whatever format you want, including Auromatic, if you want to have those heights always playing some content.

The SP4 is a Bryston adaptation of the Storm Audio ISP pre/pro, BTW.

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