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post #6661 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Exactly. A beta program should be just that: a sample of users that have a specific need for the software, to be used under controlled conditions and with support that can manage the greater time investment sometimes needed for the features to be changed/introduced.

I run a business myself where I use beta software at times, and it's always pushed by the software developer, not handed out to be "used at your own risk'. It's a tradeoff between a large enough number of users and environments, compared to the available support for testing the software. Otherwise you might as well be owning an Emotiva processor ….

The other risk of a relatively uncontrolled release of a beta is that since many hobbyists pick up on problems rather than features, all it takes is two or three users to report a problem (i.e. the high-res problem introduced in a beta in certain circumstances) to start a reputation of the brand having 'issues'. Especially true when there are guerilla marketers that read a forum from industry competitors or dealers, and have a vested interest in spreading negative feedback no matter how atypical it is of the typical brand experience with official software releases or most configurations, for that matter.

Just my $0.02...

There are other uses for beta programs as well. Many others. Sophisticated software based systems can never be fully tested in a lab environment. There are just too many configurations and third party components to test. My experience is that extensive real world testing is critical for great software.
Regardless, I certainly believe I fall into the category of "users that have a specific need for the software". Either that, or at least tell me "no", or take the feature off the web site. I think any of these would be fair and I could make my decision. Just the courtesy of a response would be appreciated.

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post #6662 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 05:18 PM
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I spent this weekend migrating my subs from a minidsp to a Xilica.

I started with the minidsp 2x4HD to free up channels on the Alt16 and it did a fine job but seriously interfered with the operation of the URC RF based controls & remotes I use. RF saturation in the same range apparently that URC uses, with sub cables acting as antenna! I tried everything from changing location, moving cables, even a home brew faraday cage - a metal cookie tin! The tin worked but was position dependent on stopping the RF interference. Imagine putting a minidsp in a tin can with cables hanging out under the lid; and it was the lid that did the trick. I then figured on something more professional - one of those steel electrical boxes that has knock-outs for elect. conduits from amazon for $30. That was not as good as the cookie tin and needed to be on the floor - still very clunky and still not as effective. But I gave it my best shot to make the minidsp work in my setup.

So my experiment with a minidsp ended with spending the $$ for a Xilica XP2040. I then had to deal with matching the gain levels between the 2. I used Omnimic to measure freq response curves with each sub in each DSP, get their SPL readings & even measured each output's peak voltages. Much to my surprise, I didn't have to make any changes in the gains. The curves & SPL readings were nearly perfectly matched and voltages were even close to the same. This is interesting to me since the Xilica uses dBu as units of gain and the minidsp supposedly (claimed by several owners) is in dBfs. But the proof was in the results so after a day of many measurements, I'm using the Xilica with the Altitude. I'll keep the minidsp as a back-up.

I like the Xilica. It's 4 times the cost of the minidsp but more robust & better quality solution plus network access is so much more convenient than being tethered to the minidsp with a USB cable.

I chalk this experience to part of going down the rabbit hole Part of my journey learning the ropes.

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post #6663 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuccino View Post
To turn on my amps and screen when video is to be played. They run quite warm and I want them off when I just play audio (most of the time). I want to leave the A16 on all the time and just have other equipment come on as needed. (The amps do not have IR that will work with the Harmony.)


Edit: That is exactly what I meant by "A beta participant knows that the new features can have problems and that there could be impacts to current functionality."
It is not recommended to leave the A16 on all the time (same applies to A32)

But turning on amps and screen will work by default? I don't know, but my guess is that trigger out (even with no programming option) will set trigger on (12V) when the A16 is on. You can solve this easily right now by just turning off the A16; the rest will follow.

On the A32, there are no programming of triggers directly. So the one trigger out; will send "on" signal when the A32 is turned on; and off "0V" when the A32 is turned off. This works fine for me.

And on the A16 if I remember correctly; you can turn it "off" (read: standby) via IR-remote; the same with turning in on from standby again (this option does not exist on the A32).

Edit:
And a sidenote; in beta software also exciting functionality can end up not working. So I'm not sure you want to go that direction

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Last edited by Berland; 03-24-2019 at 05:47 PM.
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post #6664 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
It is not recommended to leave the A16 on all the time.

But turning on amps and screen will work by default? I don't know, but my guess is that trigger out (even with no programming option) will set trigger on (12V) when the A16 is on. You can solve this easily right now by just turning off the A16; the rest will follow.

On the A32, there are no programming of triggers directly. So the one trigger out; will send "on" signal when the A32 is turned on; and off "0V" when the A32 is turned off. This works fine for me.

And on the A16 if I remember correctly; you can turn it "off" (read: standby) via IR-remote; the same with turning in on from standby again (this option does not exist on the A32).

I don't need (or want) all my extra amps on for my surround speakers unless I am playing video. The one non-programmable trigger can only turn everything on or off. Yes, you can turn the A16 off (not standby - it still takes 45 seconds to power on from this mode) from the Trinnov remote but it does not work with the Harmony yet. Even with training.

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post #6665 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuccino View Post
I don't need (or want) all my extra amps on for my surround speakers unless I am playing video. The one non-programmable trigger can only turn everything on or off. Yes, you can turn the A16 off (not standby - it still takes 45 seconds to power on from this mode) from the Trinnov remote but it does not work with the Harmony yet. Even with training.
I'm fairly sure your dealer can come up with a solution for you. There are multiple programmable trigger systems out there (or other systems to handle exactly what you want).

Edit:
And I'm kind of confused regarding turning of amps to surround speakers. The amplifiers are the ones you want to keep on all the time, not the surround processor

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post #6666 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 07:35 PM
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Hi

I am switching from the Datasat RS20i to Trinnov Altitude 16. I had a number of questions that I need help with before I put the money down on the Altitude 16. Appreciate all the help you can give me. Here are the questions:

1. Are there any detailed reviews out there on the Altitude 16? can you please provide links
2. Is it true that the Altitude 16 cannot be hardware upgraded ? it can only take software upgrades in the future
3. What is the Trinnov customer service or customer support like in terms of responsiveness, etc.
4. What has been the overall experience of Altitude 16 users in terms of sound quality compared to previous high end processors that they have used before?

Thanks

YP
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post #6667 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yagmeister View Post
Hi

I am switching from the Datasat RS20i to Trinnov Altitude 16. I had a number of questions that I need help with before I put the money down on the Altitude 16. Appreciate all the help you can give me. Here are the questions:

1. Are there any detailed reviews out there on the Altitude 16? can you please provide links
2. Is it true that the Altitude 16 cannot be hardware upgraded ? it can only take software upgrades in the future
3. What is the Trinnov customer service or customer support like in terms of responsiveness, etc.
4. What has been the overall experience of Altitude 16 users in terms of sound quality compared to previous high end processors that they have used before?

Thanks

YP
Hi, you actually asked and had answered these questions a few days ago on a separate thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post57786446

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post #6668 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I'm fairly sure your dealer can come up with a solution for you. There are multiple programmable trigger systems out there (or other systems to handle exactly what you want).

Edit:
And I'm kind of confused regarding turning of amps to surround speakers. The amplifiers are the ones you want to keep on all the time, not the surround processor
Same here - I leave my three NAD M27s on standby, and turn on/off (admittedly by Mark 1.0 Human Hand since my component cabinet is about seven feet from my sofa) the Altitude as I use or stop using my system. The amps haven't been off in several months as far as I know.
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Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
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post #6669 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yagmeister View Post
Hi

I am switching from the Datasat RS20i to Trinnov Altitude 16. I had a number of questions that I need help with before I put the money down on the Altitude 16. Appreciate all the help you can give me. Here are the questions:

1. Are there any detailed reviews out there on the Altitude 16? can you please provide links
2. Is it true that the Altitude 16 cannot be hardware upgraded ? it can only take software upgrades in the future
3. What is the Trinnov customer service or customer support like in terms of responsiveness, etc.
4. What has been the overall experience of Altitude 16 users in terms of sound quality compared to previous high end processors that they have used before?

Thanks

YP
I switched from the RS20i to the Altitude 16.

Google: "review of Trinnov Altitude 16" and you will be presented all kinds of links. And without exception, all of the reviews are glowing!!!

The Altitude 16 can not upgraded to more channels if that is what you are asking. But, the software can be upgrade to include new features, or new codex or .... If you need channel upgradability, get the Altitude 32-16.

I have had great success in customer support but there are lots of folks on this thread that can also help.

The audible differences between an RS20i at 7.x.4 calibrated by someone who really knows what they are doing and an Altitude at 7.x.4 also calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing, are very, very small. That is unless 3D remapping is appropriate in which case, the Trinnov easily wins. And, of course, if you want more than 7.x.4, the Trinnov easily wins again. I went to 9.x.6 (where x = bunches of subs). Easily betters the overall presentation provided by the RS20i.

Let me say that if you make the move to the Altitude 16, you will not be disappointed.

Last edited by audioguy; 03-24-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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post #6670 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 10:42 PM
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Their are a number of processors out or on the way out to the market which will do 16 channels. I think you should also consider those especially if you have a dedicated well treated room.
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post #6671 of 9106 Old 03-24-2019, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I switched from the RS20i to the Altitude 16.

Google: "review of Trinnov Altitude 16" and you will be presented all kinds of links. And without exception, all of the reviews are glowing!!!

The Altitude 16 can not upgraded to more channels if that is what you are asking. But, the software can be upgrade to include new features, or new codex or .... If you need channel upgradability, get the Altitude 32-16.

I have had great success in customer support but there are lots of folks on this thread that can also help.

The audible differences between an RS20i at 7.x.4 calibrated by someone who really knows what they are doing and an Altitude at 7.x.4 also calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing, are very, very small. That is unless 3D remapping is appropriate in which case, the Trinnov easily wins. And, of course, if you want more than 7.x.4, the Trinnov easily wins again. I went to 9.x.6 (where x = bunches of subs). Easily betters the overall presentation provided by the RS20i.

Let me say that if you make the move to the Altitude 16, you will not be disappointed.
Lets add to this that if you are a music lover and use your theatre system to listen to 2 channel music as I do, especially as the Altitude SSPs are ROON Ready, that the Altitiude SSP 3D remapping of stereo, and also playing in Auro 3D, is sensational! No matter how best you have placed your front left and right speakers, 3D remapping will use other speakers in your system to correct speaker position for reflections, etc and simply improve the sonics; and add Auro 3D for also improving the sonics. With my Theta Casablanca IV-A SSP, I always went back to listening to stereo 2 channel in 2 channel only; whereas with Trinnov Auro 3D with 3D remapping simply sounds sensational, more like I'm there live!

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post #6672 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
If I am starting from a clean sheet of paper, money is not an issue and LCR speakers will be installed in a baffle wall would you lean towards JBL SCL-2, Procella P8, Procella P815, Wisdom audio in wall, or Triad in wall for a custom room about 19’ wide by 28’ deep by 11’ high? Just prepping my savings account and planing for my next theater in a new house. Trinnov 32 would drive the system.
My room is similar size and I'm very happy with my P610s as LCR.

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post #6673 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I switched from the RS20i to the Altitude 16.

Google: "review of Trinnov Altitude 16" and you will be presented all kinds of links. And without exception, all of the reviews are glowing!!!

The Altitude 16 can not upgraded to more channels if that is what you are asking. But, the software can be upgrade to include new features, or new codex or .... If you need channel upgradability, get the Altitude 32-16.

I have had great success in customer support but there are lots of folks on this thread that can also help.

The audible differences between an RS20i at 7.x.4 calibrated by someone who really knows what they are doing and an Altitude at 7.x.4 also calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing, are very, very small. That is unless 3D remapping is appropriate in which case, the Trinnov easily wins. And, of course, if you want more than 7.x.4, the Trinnov easily wins again. I went to 9.x.6 (where x = bunches of subs). Easily betters the overall presentation provided by the RS20i.

Let me say that if you make the move to the Altitude 16, you will not be disappointed.


Hi Chuck - in what rooms/situations does the 3D remapping feature really become noticeable?
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post #6674 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 03:32 AM
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Hi Chuck - in what rooms/situations does the 3D remapping feature really become noticeable?
If speaker placement is not 100% correct; please note that the room can also make perfect speaker placements need correction. The 3D (or 2D) mapping really shines in stereo as well as 5.1, 7.1, DTS:X, Auro-3D and Atmos.

I have still never seen a room with 100% perfect speaker placements

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post #6675 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
If I am starting from a clean sheet of paper, money is not an issue and LCR speakers will be installed in a baffle wall would you lean towards JBL SCL-2, Procella P8, Procella P815, Wisdom audio in wall, or Triad in wall for a custom room about 19’ wide by 28’ deep by 11’ high? Just prepping my savings account and planing for my next theater in a new house. Trinnov 32 would drive the system.


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I think the M&K sound IW300 could fit in that list too.
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post #6676 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
If speaker placement is not 100% correct; please note that the room can also make perfect speaker placements need correction. The 3D (or 2D) mapping really shines in stereo as well as 5.1, 7.1, DTS:X, Auro-3D and Atmos.

I have still never seen a room with 100% perfect speaker placements
For Atmos, mine is so, so close to "perfect", 3D re-mapping does zero. And while my speaker placement is NOT perfect for Auro, I have no Auro source material. I will be experimenting with 3D re-mapping for my Auro sources since that I how I up mix my stereo.
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post #6677 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantomaudio View Post
Their are a number of processors out or on the way out to the market which will do 16 channels. I think you should also consider those especially if you have a dedicated well treated room.
If price is high on the list of selection criteria, there are most certainly other excellent options. If performance/functions/features is at the top, then there are not. I've either owned or calibrated many of the processors on the market. One key that separates the great from the less great is the room correction technology employed. But once you throw in 3D re-mapping, firmware upgrades, the cohesiveness of the sound field, as well as a myriad of other features/function and performance, in my opinion, the Altitude really sits at the top.
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post #6678 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
If I am starting from a clean sheet of paper, money is not an issue and LCR speakers will be installed in a baffle wall would you lean towards JBL SCL-2, Procella P8, Procella P815, Wisdom audio in wall, or Triad in wall for a custom room about 19’ wide by 28’ deep by 11’ high? Just prepping my savings account and planing for my next theater in a new house. Trinnov 32 would drive the system.
While I own and absolutely love my Triads, there is just one speaker, that if I were starting over, would replace it -- Wisdom. And THESE are what I would use for my LCRs. As amazing as the cohesiveness is in my room with the Trinnov, these really take it to the next level.
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post #6679 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While I own and absolutely love my Triads, there is just one speaker, that if I were starting over, would replace it -- Wisdom. And THESE are what I would use for my LCRs. As amazing as the cohesiveness is in my room with the Trinnov, these really take it to the next level.

Those Wisdom Audio speakers look very nice. Any idea on the MSRP? Which Triads do you own for LCR?


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #6680 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jmanthey View Post
See post 6462.
Thanks. I read that post but it still doesn't really answer the question because using the philosophy talked about in that post the same argument could be made for the Altitude16 but that's not an option is it, to not have the 3D codecs.

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post #6681 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While I own and absolutely love my Triads, there is just one speaker, that if I were starting over, would replace it -- Wisdom. And THESE are what I would use for my LCRs. As amazing as the cohesiveness is in my room with the Trinnov, these really take it to the next level.





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post #6682 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 07:59 AM
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Those Wisdom Audio speakers look very nice. Any idea on the MSRP? Which Triads do you own for LCR?
I use Triad Platinums for my LCRs. ($7500/each) But, I did someone's room that was smaller than mine and we used in-wall Triad Gold LCRs. They sound identical to the Plats.

These particular Wisdom speakers require bi-amping so you would either need an Altitude 32-24 OR the Altitude 16 PLUS the box that Wisdom sells (SC-3) that you would use for the crossovers of the LCRS. While that box is not cheap, it is the less expensive option when compared to the 32-24 upgrade. I think the MSRP of these speakers is about $10,000 each!!
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post #6683 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 08:07 AM
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I use Triad Platinums for my LCRs. ($7500/each) But, I did someone's room that was smaller than mine and we used in-wall Triad Gold LCRs. They sound identical to the Plats.



These particular Wisdom speakers require bi-amping so you would either need an Altitude 32-24 OR the Altitude 16 PLUS the box that Wisdom sells (SC-3) that you would use for the crossovers of the LCRS. While that box is not cheap, it is the less expensive option when compared to the 32-24 upgrade. I think the MSRP of these speakers is about $10,000 each!!

How big is your room? The $10,000 per speaker (for LCR) is doable but over $5,000 per speaker then leads me to start questioning whether I will receive any benefit in a two row 8 seat theater.

Just means less money for me to spend on other toys : )


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #6684 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 08:09 AM
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How big is your room? The $10,000 per speaker (for LCR) is doable but over $5,000 per speaker then leads me to start questioning whether I will receive any benefit in a two row 8 seat theater.
Not sure I understand the highlighted phrase since the $10,000 is not an issue.

My room is right at 3400cf. (19.3 x 22 x 8) I sit 14 feet from the screen. Golds may have worked but I wasn't willing to take the chance I might be leaving something on the table.
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post #6685 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Not sure I understand the highlighted phrase since the $10,000 is not an issue.



My room is right at 3400cf. (19.3 x 22 x 8) I sit 14 feet from the screen. Golds may have worked but I wasn't willing to take the chance I might be leaving something on the table.

Just because I can afford it does not mean it makes sense to pay more for something. : )

I really love my current Procella system and when I get closer to making the move to a new house I will engage with the Erskine Group for design looking at Procella, JBL, Triad and Wisdom.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #6686 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 08:18 AM
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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #6687 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 10:17 AM
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I'm fairly sure your dealer can come up with a solution for you. There are multiple programmable trigger systems out there (or other systems to handle exactly what you want).

Edit:
And I'm kind of confused regarding turning of amps to surround speakers. The amplifiers are the ones you want to keep on all the time, not the surround processor

There is no need for the dealer to come up with a work-around solution. Nyal and Jon reached out this morning and updated my unit and 10 minutes later everything is working. Jon apologized for the web site mix up and explained that it was "a bit of a mess...". Thanks to everyone for their assistance in getting this sorted out for me. (And as a nice bonus, the new version corrects the Output configuration anomaly that I had.) This was so simple once I had someone to talk to.
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post #6688 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 12:32 PM
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^^
Glad they were able to help! Time to sit back & enjoy

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post #6689 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 12:32 PM
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Just because I can afford it does not mean it makes sense to pay more for something. : )

I really love my current Procella system and when I get closer to making the move to a new house I will engage with the Erskine Group for design looking at Procella, JBL, Triad and Wisdom.


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If I were you, I'dd add Alcons and Meyer Sound to that list.

My own shopping list for LCR speakers consists of:

- JBL M2
- Wisdom L100 or Cinema Line 3
- Meyer Sound (Bluehorn or Acheron)
- Alcons CRMS MkII

All of them play in a higher league compared to Procella, IMHO.
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post #6690 of 9106 Old 03-25-2019, 12:46 PM
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Hi Chuck - in what rooms/situations does the 3D remapping feature really become noticeable?
After trying hundreds of prepros/receivers, it's just a matter of time, you're 100% going to end up with a Trinnov

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