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post #6871 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 01:12 PM
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Puzzled with some Neural X behavior.

I was playing a 4.0 SACD (Miles Davis Bitches Brew), the original quad mix. I tried Neural X and was surprised to find only the rears were added, none of the tops. Same with Dolby Surround. Only Auro added the tops. No change after rebooting.

I tried a stereo CD and all available channels were used by Neural X & Dolby Surround as expected. I then tried a 5.1 96Khz DVD-A & again Neural only added the rears while DS did use overheads. I tried the 2 ch tracks on the DVD-A & got 2.1 ch with Neural! What?

I thought the hi sampling rate may be the issue so I forced a downsample by changing the clock in the Alt16 from slave to master at 44.1 & 48K sampling rates. Then Neural X added the overheads! Changed back to slave clock so it's playing normal 5.1 96Khz and again Neural only added rears, no overheads.

Is this some DTS software/decoder limitation? Quirky behavior? Or does using Neural with 88.1 & 96k run into CPU limitations with the Altitude 16?

I'd like to know for sure that it's a true limitation and not some bug or hardware problem. Rational explanations are nice to have.

Any Alt16 owners seen this with DTS upmixing on hi-rez tracks?

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 04-07-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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post #6872 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 06:47 PM
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I'm having some difficulty getting my bass integrated correctly. I have thus far configured my room and ran the optimizer with quick setup bass management using a simple 80Hz filter applied to all speakers in a 5.1 setup. I am using 2 JL F112v2 subs connected to 2 separate outputs on the trinnov. Neither sub has any filter set. I am encountering two issues, the first is that my subs will not come on off standby unless I turn the system up to near the level at which I ran the optimizer (-35db). The second issue, possibly related to the first is that the subs feel like they need more gain. I'm coming from a marantz setup where audyssey actually had the subs sounding pretty good. They now sound lacking here for both music and movies. Some tips to get me off the ground would be awesome. The rest of the system sounds much better than my marantz setup, particularly for dialog.
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post #6873 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Never heard them in the same room, BUT, Room Perfect, at least on the McIntosh product, does not allow you to define the target curve - and that, for me, is a deal breaker.
I'm late to the conversation. Not defining target curves was pro and not a con when I made my purchasing decision (I bought the Lyngdorf MP-50 in 2017). Voicings were a major selling point for me.

Let me first say that my room is more of a game-room than a home cinema (I just added a shuffleboard table). If I had a purpose-built room like @mikela I would have splurged on a Trinnov. In no way am I suggesting Lyngdorf is better, just different. I would place it above the Marantz/Yamaha/NAD flagship preamps (I also have a NAD) and below the Storms/Trinnovs. Maybe closer to Datasat & Theta than some might think.

I don't know how the target curve calibrations and measurements work on the Trinnov. Do you re-run the measurements anytime you want to test a new curve? How fast can you switch between prior curves?

What RoomPerfect allows me to do is make room position measurements without worrying about extraneous noise. My 5-year-old playing nearby [or me tripping and falling] simply lengthens the position measurement, no need to restart the process. Also, you don't have to complete RoomPerfect calibration in one sitting.

While I can't weigh seating positions like on the Trinnov, I can define multiple focus positions. A focus position is basically defining a MLP/sweet spot. As more focus positions and room measurements are added room knowledge increases. You don't have to get room knowledge to 100% the first day, or ever. You can enjoy a movie with the family and add more room measurements later.

Instead of a target curve RoomPerfect attempts to preserve the power response of the main speakers. It also prioritizes taming room modes in the time-domain rather than created a flat amplitude response (ala Audyssey). The user can customize the amplitude response targets separately from the RoomPerfect calibration process.

The beauty of it all is being able to switch focus positions (there is also a global option to provide a more consistent seat-to-seat experience) and voicings in ~2 secs. It's just like choosing a processing mode like Neural X or Auromatic. There are even more options when defining sources.

Lyngdorf's documentation sucks to be blunt. Anyone interested is better off reading McIntosh's docs. Lyngdorf seem to rely on an experienced group of dealer/installers who also work with the Steinway Lyngdorf systems (a fully closed system along the lines of JBL Synthesis). We domestic Lyngdorf owners have had to rely on the European dealers, McIntosh owners, and reverse-engineering to understand the inner-workings (still a work-in-progress).

I believe 2019 will offer opportunities for direct comparisons between some of these processors. Definitely Trinnov vs Lyngdorf.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 04-07-2019 at 07:19 PM.
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post #6874 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 08:32 PM
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I don't know how the target curve calibrations and measurements work on the Trinnov. Do you re-run the measurements anytime you want to test a new curve? How fast can you switch between prior curves?

Don't have to re-do measurements with the mic for a new target curve. What you would do is save the existing preset to a new preset to preserve the original curves. Then adjust the target curves in the new preset and click a software button that applies changes to the measurements and then click Save on the new preset. The effect of the changed target curve on the measured data is all mathematically and doesn't need a new set of mic measuring. However, the only way to keep the original target is to do the changes in the new preset. If you don't like the results, you can delete that new preset or you can continue making adjustments. Changing presets to do A/B listening comparisons only takes a few seconds.



In Trinnov-land, everything revolves around "Presets" - speaker layouts, measuring positions, gains, PEQ's, target curves, etc. You can do a MLP reference point measurement, save the calibration to the preset then come back to it later to do the rest. With the caveat that the mic positioning is critical to accurate measurements so once the mic is tuned in, IME it's best to do all planned positions at the same time, since it can be very time consuming to get the mic centered & positioned so that the angles & elevation the mic measures correctly represents where the LCR speakers really are. That's the most time consuming part of the process. Keep in mind that the Trinnov mic measures in 3D space, incl height so the angles are important if you want to use the remapping feature. But once the calibration measurements are done, unless you change the speaker layout, you wouldn't have to run them again. But if you add speakers, remove speakers, change layouts, the Optimizer data is deleted so out comes the mic again And if you add/change/delete any PEQ's, the Optimizer calibration has to be re-done. The Optimizer takes all PEQ's, and the layout into consideration when it's run so it comes last. If you have no intention of adding PEQs or changing the layout, then you only need to run the Optimizer cal once then you can play with target curves all you want.


Hope this makes sense.

Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Vit View Post
I'm having some difficulty getting my bass integrated correctly. I have thus far configured my room and ran the optimizer with quick setup bass management using a simple 80Hz filter applied to all speakers in a 5.1 setup. I am using 2 JL F112v2 subs connected to 2 separate outputs on the trinnov. Neither sub has any filter set. I am encountering two issues, the first is that my subs will not come on off standby unless I turn the system up to near the level at which I ran the optimizer (-35db). The second issue, possibly related to the first is that the subs feel like they need more gain. I'm coming from a marantz setup where audyssey actually had the subs sounding pretty good. They now sound lacking here for both music and movies. Some tips to get me off the ground would be awesome. The rest of the system sounds much better than my marantz setup, particularly for dialog.
First step wold be to set your two subs differently in the Altitude16. In small rooms, multiple subs behave as a single sub. The way you have your subs configured, Room Optimizer is calculating filters for each sub independently, and they very likely could be working against each other.

Instead, head to the Active Crossover page, and set a single sub output as a 2way speaker, and set the crossover information identical. Then go back to the channel setup page and assign the output channels appropriately.
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post #6876 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Vit View Post
I'm having some difficulty getting my bass integrated correctly. I have thus far configured my room and ran the optimizer with quick setup bass management using a simple 80Hz filter applied to all speakers in a 5.1 setup. I am using 2 JL F112v2 subs connected to 2 separate outputs on the trinnov. Neither sub has any filter set. I am encountering two issues, the first is that my subs will not come on off standby unless I turn the system up to near the level at which I ran the optimizer (-35db). The second issue, possibly related to the first is that the subs feel like they need more gain. I'm coming from a marantz setup where audyssey actually had the subs sounding pretty good. They now sound lacking here for both music and movies. Some tips to get me off the ground would be awesome. The rest of the system sounds much better than my marantz setup, particularly for dialog.

As one step, make sure you also have both subs checked to be On in the LFE tab. The LFE tab is in the same area but separate from the bass management tab & can be missed. I know this from personal experience I missed it myself. If you don't check the subs to play the LFE track, all they are playing is re-directed bass from speaker crossovers.

You can manually adjust gain up/down in the Processor tab under Outputs but you may want to raise the overall measuring volume a bit when running the Optimizer calibration. At least that's my thought. One of my subs lags a bit coming off standby and when I raised the mic measuring volume a couple dB, they both tended to come on at the same time. Mine are now combined on 1 output, but I started like you using 2 outputs. When you ran the calibration, did the volume reach 80 dB on the meter? If not, raise the measuring volume until the meter hits or exceeds 80dB.


You may also find that lowering the measuring volume may result in it setting a higher internal gain. This I don't know. Someone more experienced than I may be able to help more on the gain issue.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 04-07-2019 at 08:51 PM.
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post #6877 of 7529 Old 04-07-2019, 08:52 PM
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First step wold be to set your two subs differently in the Altitude16. In small rooms, multiple subs behave as a single sub. The way you have your subs configured, Room Optimizer is calculating filters for each sub independently, and they very likely could be working against each other.

Instead, head to the Active Crossover page, and set a single sub output as a 2way speaker, and set the crossover information identical. Then go back to the channel setup page and assign the output channels appropriately.
This too
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@ss9001 that was very clearly described. Thank you.
@RUR and @sdrucker have shown me around the A32 a bit but there is no substitute to owning one's own.

If an Altitude pops up secondhand, please think of me and let me know. Waiting for @madhuski to first, get the A16 and then, move up to the A32 might be up to a year away.
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post #6879 of 7529 Old 04-08-2019, 06:14 AM
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http://3krof.r.a.d.sendibm1.com/mk/c...8FHAQ4pHPGjxF0

trinnov lunch an Mac app instead of using vnc useful and no need to enter the S/N every time




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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
http://3krof.r.a.d.sendibm1.com/mk/c...8FHAQ4pHPGjxF0

trinnov lunch an Mac app instead of using vnc useful and no need to enter the S/N every time




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This is nice, though an iPad app might even be more useful
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post #6881 of 7529 Old 04-08-2019, 06:17 AM
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This is nice, though an iPad app might even be more useful


Yes will more fun to Play with it


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Some function won’t work at the moment such the optimizer setting but it’s show it will come soon


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trinnov lunch an Mac app instead of using vnc useful and no need to enter the S/N every time
Nice but there's no need to enter the S/N every time with VNC. I did it once and reconnections are nearly instantaneous.
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Nice but there's no need to enter the S/N every time with VNC. I did it once and reconnections are nearly instantaneous.


The share screen function in Mac needed


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Some function won’t work at the moment such the optimizer setting but it’s show it will come soon
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The share screen function in Mac needed
What task(s) are you trying to accomplish?
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What task(s) are you trying to accomplish?




Here I just take a look on the new. App



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Here I just take a look on the new. App
OK, so why not use VNC to do everything until the app is ready for use? That's what we've all been doing for years.
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OK, so why not use VNC to do everything until the app is ready for use? That's what we've all been doing for years.


Yes that what I do just saw it and hit a try


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This is nice, though an iPad app might even be more useful
I'm told Windows, iOS and Android versions are on their way.
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I'm told Windows, iOS and Android versions are on their way.
Eventually.
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Hallo All,


I will be installing six of my Atmos speaker (2 way) soon. I will make the angle 30 degree.



Do I have to point all driver to MLP or should I point all to middle (inner side)?


Can someone help?


Thank you.
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If you type ⌘I, 'machine Interface' from the Control menu, it opens a 'screen share' VNC window then you can proceed to the optimizer settings. The main viewer window appears to be just a cut down HTML browser. However place the two windows side by side and you can do things like view your meters whilst making other changes to the Altitude via the in-built viewer.


The only thing really new here is the ability to backup/archive your settings/presets across the network.




Quote:
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Here I just take a look on the new. App



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First step wold be to set your two subs differently in the Altitude16. In small rooms, multiple subs behave as a single sub. The way you have your subs configured, Room Optimizer is calculating filters for each sub independently, and they very likely could be working against each other.

Instead, head to the Active Crossover page, and set a single sub output as a 2way speaker, and set the crossover information identical. Then go back to the channel setup page and assign the output channels appropriately.
I always have wondered how you would proceed in the case of more than 4 subs not equidistant from mlp.
Is an external dsp box the only way?
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I always have wondered how you would proceed in the case of more than 4 subs not equidistant from mlp.
Is an external dsp box the only way?
check out symetrix

http://www.symetrix.co/products/solus-nx/
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post #6895 of 7529 Old 04-08-2019, 11:40 AM
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Thanks for the reply... i’m Aware of various dsp boxes and for example I’m using a MiniDSP 4x10.

I was wondering how you would tackle the problem only with the altitude without resorting to an external box.
Just curious 😊
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I always have wondered how you would proceed in the case of more than 4 subs not equidistant from mlp.
Is an external dsp box the only way?

Unless you have an Altitude 32 or the channels to spare, yes.


Also, another DSP to check into is Xilica. I started with a minidsp 2x4HD and for reasons unrelated to its functionality, had to look for another solution. Got a Xilica XP2040 and very happy with it. Another option for you.

https://xilica.com/
https://xilica.com/products/xp/

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Unless you have an Altitude 32 or the channels to spare, yes.


Also, another DSP to check into is Xilica. I started with a minidsp 2x4HD and for reasons unrelated to its functionality, had to look for another solution. Got a Xilica XP2040 and very happy with it. Another option for you.

https://xilica.com/
https://xilica.com/products/xp/
Hey Steve thanks. Yeah I know about cilica or qsc ... I was more interested in a “pure altitude” solution.

If you have channels to spare and > 4 subs not equidistant from mlp how would you tackle the problem?

With the active crossover option you have the ‘limit’ of 4 subs .

I’m just curious form an academic\scientific point of view as I think it’s a waste to use all those precious altitude channels for subs when the external dsp solution works like a treat 😊
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Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hey Steve thanks. Yeah I know about cilica or qsc ... I was more interested in a “pure altitude” solution.

If you have channels to spare and > 4 subs not equidistant from mlp how would you tackle the problem?

With the active crossover option you have the ‘limit’ of 4 subs .

I’m just curious form an academic\scientific point of view as I think it’s a waste to use all those precious altitude channels for subs when the external dsp solution works like a treat 😊
Am I missing something, what limit of 4 subs are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hey Steve thanks. Yeah I know about cilica or qsc ... I was more interested in a “pure altitude” solution.

If you have channels to spare and > 4 subs not equidistant from mlp how would you tackle the problem?
If you're after a summed response for >4 subs, you'll need a suitable external box. Four's the limit in the Altitudes multi-way.
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post #6900 of 7529 Old 04-08-2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hey Steve thanks. Yeah I know about cilica or qsc ... I was more interested in a “pure altitude” solution.

If you have channels to spare and > 4 subs not equidistant from mlp how would you tackle the problem?

With the active crossover option you have the ‘limit’ of 4 subs .

I’m just curious form an academic\scientific point of view as I think it’s a waste to use all those precious altitude channels for subs when the external dsp solution works like a treat 😊
If you are using the Welti/Devantier method (links below), with subs in corners/mid-points/quarter points, then one of the requirements is that all subs have the same phase and SPL. I know that isn't part of your question, but I wanted to make that clear.

SFM/MSO are a bit different, using different time delay and filters per sub. Any of these solutions can be used with an Altitude, but as you noted, you are limited to a 4way crossover implementation, so four subs max if using SFM or MSO (unless subs are co-located I suppose). If Welti/Devantier, then as long as you can ensure phase and SPL are consistent, you can link subs together at the amps etc and go beyond 4 subs. The goal is to find ways to control modal issue, reducing seat to seat variation, so global EQ can be effective.

So, I bounced around there quite a it... Essentially, more than 4 subs would be complicated in a pure Altitude environment. Or most any system not using a 3rd party DSP solution.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00d...e976a1a72e.pdf

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...RoomsPt3_0.pdf
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