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post #7381 of 8490 Old 06-01-2019, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Despite all the good things, I feel there is one negative aspect from Optimizer in my system. The sound is dry and can be rough and cold. The obvious one is the vocal, I feel the singer have just had a sore throat, there is a certain dry/hoarse quality and lack of liveliness. The bypass sound; although it is more flat sounding, it is more pleasant to hear and natural.
My system didn't sound "right" with my Danleys until I found a target curve which worked for me. Initially the sounds were harsh and listener fatigue would follow. Now I get a very balanced sound which can be listened to for hours.
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post #7382 of 8490 Old 06-01-2019, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
My system didn't sound "right" with my Danleys until I found a target curve which worked for me. Initially the sounds were harsh and listener fatigue would follow. Now I get a very balanced sound which can be listened to for hours.
My point exactly. And one way for him to determine what he is listening to is to measure what is going on at the MLP. Unless he created his own target curve, the chance of any default sounding correct would be slim to none.

Furthermore, while the Optimizer does an excellent job of setting channel delays very accurately, it does not do as well when multiple subs are in place - and again, measurements will easily show that. Without measurements, he is just guessing.
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post #7383 of 8490 Old 06-01-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Despite all the good things, I feel there is one negative aspect from Optimizer in my system. The sound is dry and can be rough and cold. The obvious one is the vocal, I feel the singer have just had a sore throat, there is a certain dry/hoarse quality and lack of liveliness. The bypass sound; although it is more flat sounding, it is more pleasant to hear and natural.


This maybe system dependent, I am using TAD horn for LCR, the details are crazy and more boost from Optimizer, make some high notes a bit unbearable.
There are many elements you can look into. If you're using the Optimization Wizard and/or default settings, for one thing you may be running a flat target curve or have too small a rolloff on the higher frequencies. With horns I could see that happening.

Things to consider are:
1) Optimizer - did you just do a single position measurement? What IIR/FIR settings did you use, and what octave resolution (and energy cycles) were in the room EQ?
2) Speakers - are L/R and center toed in for measurable, on-axis performance at MLP? If these are bookshelves, there's also the matter of vertical elevation about how tweeters are aimed toward the listener
3) Target curve - is it a default "flat" curve? That's definitely going to be unpleasant for most listeners. Try a Harman style curve with a gentle downward sloping curve above the mid-range frequencies (you'll find some differences about where this should be, as well as the roll-off for your speakers). This is both science and art
4) Bass - you might have SBIR issues that are creating phase cancellation and producing some of the unpleasantness for upper bass, which I could see impacting male vocals, and you may be overcorrecting (or having an effect masked by other frequencies getting corrected showing up). That's primarily a subject for acoustic treatment and speaker placement, as well as where MLP is. That involves tradeoffs, naturally.
5) Frequency limiter - you could look at whether you want to limit the correction to the bass frequencies (i.e. below Schroeder). Likewise, you might want to tame the boost if you're getting a more shrill sound. Use with caution
6) I did a little research and I see you had (or at least posted on a thread with) a Marantz 8802. That's Audyssey XT32 I believe. Were you listening with Dynamic EQ on? That's going to impact how you evaluate the sound relative to other room EQ methods (with boosted bass and also surrounds below reference, tailing off as you get closer to reference). And what target curve did you use there - your own or just default Audyssey "Reference" or "Flat"?
7) For ALL of this, you need to measure externally with an OmniMic or REW to see what the room issues are before tackling the Optimizer alone. Without that you're flying blind.


In my opinion this is where you don't want to go completely DIY on the Room EQ, no matter how convenient a Configuration Wizard or default settings might be. I'd seek pro assistance (preferably Home Acoustics Alliance trained or with similar inclinations about best practice standards for a room) or turn to your dealer for more advice about setup rather than just "live with this" for awhile.

And whatever you do, I'd save the current configuration to a preset, then run the Optimizer and save the data to a new preset, and A/B. You'll want to do this on familiar content ideally for any changes you make. That's where you should let your ears guide you.
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post #7384 of 8490 Old 06-02-2019, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
My system didn't sound "right" with my Danleys until I found a target curve which worked for me. Initially the sounds were harsh and listener fatigue would follow. Now I get a very balanced sound which can be listened to for hours.
mike, what did you end up doing? harman curve more or less on the high frequency end of the spectrum?

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post #7385 of 8490 Old 06-02-2019, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
mike, what did you end up doing? harman curve more or less on the high frequency end of the spectrum?
I have experimented with a number of curves mostly variations on the Harmon curve. I really liked @RUR Ken's target curve a lot. I used it when you visited. The nice thing about the Trinnov is how easy it is to set up presets and AB. The SBA doesn't have issues with channel delays which also makes experimenting easier.
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post #7386 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
I have experimented with a number of curves mostly variations on the Harmon curve. I really liked @RUR Ken's target curve a lot. I used it when you visited. The nice thing about the Trinnov is how easy it is to set up presets and AB. The SBA doesn't have issues with channel delays which also makes experimenting easier.
I would like to try this target curve (@RUR Ken's target curve.). Would anyone have a picture of this curve with the new Trinnov page that goes down to 10 HZ? Makes it much easier to enter a curve when all the dots and frequencies match up?

Thanks,
John Swanson

Trinnov Altitude 32 • 2x B&W 800D3 • B&W HTM1D3 • 4x B&W Signature 8NT • 2x JL Audio Fathom F212v2 • 3x Classé Omega Mono • Meridian 558 • Sony VPL-VW5000ES • OPPO UDP-203 • Roku Ultra • Apple TV 4K
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post #7387 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:05 AM
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Having now calibrated a Trinnov in 4 different spaces, the same target curve doesn't work in every room. Room treatment, speaker choice and user preference play a key role.

That said, I have been experimenting with all kinds of target curves since the Trinnov makes it so easy to change and compare. (In fact, I can't seem to stop!!). And most of the curves I like tend to have a lot in common, and do have some of the same characteristics to the curves you pointed to. My most recent attempts have been with a curve where the flat part in Ken's curve has a very slight downward slope. It sounds particularly nice for music.

What I am discovering is the audio mix can dictate which curve works better for which movie. Almost reminds of the days of analog turntables where adjusting VTA for each record was a deal for those who were particularly obsessive (and while I can be very obsessive, I never went that far).

The good news: Once I get the general shape of the target down, and while small adjustments may be audible, I still end up with slightly different versions of awesomeness !!
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post #7388 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:10 AM
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Thanks for the reply, my answers are below





Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
There are many elements you can look into. If you're using the Optimization Wizard and/or default settings, for one thing you may be running a flat target curve or have too small a rolloff on the higher frequencies. With horns I could see that happening.

Things to consider are:
1) Optimizer - did you just do a single position measurement? What IIR/FIR settings did you use, and what octave resolution (and energy cycles) were in the room EQ?



Yes I only use single position. IIR/FIR was default i think it was 10. 1/3 and 3 cycles



2) Speakers - are L/R and center toed in for measurable, on-axis performance at MLP? If these are bookshelves, there's also the matter of vertical elevation about how tweeters are aimed toward the listener


I only have L and R, my C horn has not arrived all horn are aim at listener


3) Target curve - is it a default "flat" curve? That's definitely going to be unpleasant for most listeners. Try a Harman style curve with a gentle downward sloping curve above the mid-range frequencies (you'll find some differences about where this should be, as well as the roll-off for your speakers). This is both science and art


yes default but i upward the bass a bit, after optimizer bass is lower and using filter in bass management also weaker the bass.

4) Bass - you might have SBIR issues that are creating phase cancellation and producing some of the unpleasantness for upper bass, which I could see impacting male vocals, and you may be overcorrecting (or having an effect masked by other frequencies getting corrected showing up). That's primarily a subject for acoustic treatment and speaker placement, as well as where MLP is. That involves tradeoffs, naturally.


When I complain the optimize was harsh/over process, my sub was off. I use midrange scanpeak ellipticor and it only start from 60hz

5) Frequency limiter - you could look at whether you want to limit the correction to the bass frequencies (i.e. below Schroeder). Likewise, you might want to tame the boost if you're getting a more shrill sound. Use with caution


Never tried


6) I did a little research and I see you had (or at least posted on a thread with) a Marantz 8802. That's Audyssey XT32 I believe. Were you listening with Dynamic EQ on? That's going to impact how you evaluate the sound relative to other room EQ methods (with boosted bass and also surrounds below reference, tailing off as you get closer to reference). And what target curve did you use there - your own or just default Audyssey "Reference" or "Flat"?


I use 0 setting with 8802a, no room correction, all corrections are in my DSP (XTA 448). All my speakers have active crossover.


7) For ALL of this, you need to measure externally with an OmniMic or REW to see what the room issues are before tackling the Optimizer alone. Without that you're flying blind.







In my opinion this is where you don't want to go completely DIY on the Room EQ, no matter how convenient a Configuration Wizard or default settings might be. I'd seek pro assistance (preferably Home Acoustics Alliance trained or with similar inclinations about best practice standards for a room) or turn to your dealer for more advice about setup rather than just "live with this" for awhile.

And whatever you do, I'd save the current configuration to a preset, then run the Optimizer and save the data to a new preset, and A/B. You'll want to do this on familiar content ideally for any changes you make. That's where you should let your ears guide you.
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post #7389 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:18 AM
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Great news for me! This weekend I re-installed my Altitude and checking each amp, each speaker, while connecting up speaker pairs one at a time, there was no noise from any channel which appeared out of nowhere mid April - no hum, no hiss, no sputtering. I did put the Altitude on the top shelf vs inside a Salamander cabinet which meant the unbalanced cables were slightly different positioned but other than that, there was no change in my system, before the noise appeared or now.

While I can't prove it was due to Comcast cable, mid-March they installed a temp line to the head box on our lot but that was OK for about a month. But I did discover that the tech who made the initial visit had left a tangled mess of cable at the environment-protection box on the house, with the cables hanging outside the box, exposed to the air. While the connections were not directly exposed to rain, they could be exposed to moist air. Plus they had jammed several old unused cables with splitters alongside the active cable. If a splitter touched any of the connections on the active cable, I could see a potential ground problem. Plus, the temp cable was run over our neighbor's yard & in the dip between his driveway & street so potentially susceptible to being run over or other damage, like damaging the ground shield. What a company! And the anxiety & days I spent troubleshooting, multiple emails & calls to Paris, sending it to CT to be checked, all could have been due to sloppy work by Comcast All during our trip I was thinking I may have to buy a new 2 amp with XLR (~$5K), get a multi-thousand dollar power isolation transformer conditioner or at least get Jensen audio isolation transformers for several channels.

Whatever the cause, there is no noise now so I'm very happy to have a noise-free Altitude setup again. And I didn't have to buy anything new. That's a bonus! Maybe sometime I'll go with balanced connections but not needed today.

My thanks to Trinnov's Jon Herron, Antoine in Paris and Pete Carpenter in CT for their time, communications & testing to make sure my Altitude was OK. Very impressive concern, service & communication.

I'm back in business
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post #7390 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:23 AM
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I'm back in business
Excellent. Good to hear!
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post #7391 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:26 AM
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Hi Guys,


I just make my own AES EBU cable today, I use Grimm TSR.


My system has DSP for each of my speakers, they are biamp and active.


So when I output the AES EBU from trinnov directly to my DSP ( it can receive digital signal, and can output digital as well), all the harshness and coarse sound I had before from my analog out, DISAPPEAR!



Now there is only one DAC chain in my system.



Straight with default optimizer and no target curve, I like the sound. it is more clean, smoother, no peaks hurt my ear. It just sound so nice, natural and clean. I am waiting for my multi converter to arrive and I cant imagine how it will sound in the final stage. LCR and sub all will be digital with converter before amp.



Here are some photos of my room and system, work still in progress.
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post #7392 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Having now calibrated a Trinnov in 4 different spaces, the same target curve doesn't work in every room. Room treatment, speaker choice and user preference play a key role.

What I am discovering is the audio mix can dictate which curve works better for which movie. Almost reminds of the days of analog turntables where adjusting VTA for each record was a deal for those who were particularly obsessive (and while I can be very obsessive, I never went that far).

The good news: Once I get the general shape of the target down, and while small adjustments may be audible, I still end up with slightly different versions of awesomeness !!

Completely agree with you Chuck. I also have presets with somewhat different curves that I switch between depending on the mix. I even have one specifically for taming some mid-range glare with female vocal due to the room acoustics. While a one-size-fits-all curve may get you in the ballpark for audio bliss, room acoustics & personal preferences will dictate creating new curves or adjusting them along one's journey

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 06-03-2019 at 06:31 AM.
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post #7393 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:37 AM
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My friend just come to my home. He knows a bit about REW and we did some measurement.


Im not sure if this is correct it is our 1st time doing a measurement.


He agrees with me that analog out with optimizer on, overall make the sounds nicer, but it is over corrected!!


Trinnov with digital out sounds nice with standard optimizer.


Here some measurements.


On means Optimizer is on



Hope someone can give some feedback.


Thank you
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post #7394 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 06:48 AM
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Some more from trinnov.


Thanks
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While it may not define what you are hearing, the REW measurement of your setup looks nothing like what the Trinnov shows. While the Trinnov is always just a mathematical approximation, the thing that most jumped out to me was the bass is up about 10 to 15db in the REW plot but flat on the Trinnov chart.

Also, what smoothing are you using in REW?
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post #7396 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
the same target curve doesn't work in every room. Room treatment, speaker choice and user preference play a key role.
Which is why I wasn't expecting much when I translated this curve to my own space. I also suspect that proper room treatments or lack thereof may play the larger role in the need for subsequent content adjustments in addition to user preference, etc.

Last edited by mikela; 06-03-2019 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Added "proper"
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post #7397 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Some more from trinnov….
The last pic shows you using a flat, 20-20kHz target curve, which will sound unnatural regardless of content. Psychoacoustically, humans are accustomed to, and therefore generally prefer, a target curve with a downward slope as frequency increases. We also tend to prefer some amount of bass boost below, say, 100Hz.
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post #7398 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
The last pic shows you using a flat, 20-20kHz target curve, which will sound unnatural regardless of content. Psychoacoustically, humans are accustomed to, and therefore generally prefer, a target curve with a downward slope as frequency increases. We also tend to prefer some amount of bass boost below, say, 100Hz.
I would also look at a less extreme graph range, such as +/- 20 (sometimes +/- 10 can be helpful) rather than +/- 40. That will make it easier to access the initial room response, including the natural rolloff of the speakers, as well as the results of the acoustic correction. But that's a rather flat output curve regardless.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While it may not define what you are hearing, the REW measurement of your setup looks nothing like what the Trinnov shows. While the Trinnov is always just a mathematical approximation, the thing that most jumped out to me was the bass is up about 10 to 15db in the REW plot but flat on the Trinnov chart.

Also, what smoothing are you using in REW?

I use 1/3 smoothing, bass might be inaccurate as both of L and R sub were on at the same time. As I said I am a newbie


I will wait for my calibrator in a couple of week when I have my center and other speakers ready



He uses XLR out for signal generator, his PC does not have HDMI out and he uses SMART. Can I plug it in trinnov's analog in and reroute the signal to what ever speaker I want?


Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I would also look at a less extreme graph range, such as +/- 20 (sometimes +/- 10 can be helpful) rather than +/- 40. That will make it easier to access the initial room response, including the natural rolloff of the speakers, as well as the results of the acoustic correction. But that's a rather flat output curve regardless.

How can I change graph's range?


Thanks
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post #7401 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:28 AM
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[QUOTE=santodx5;58134078]I use 1/3 smoothing, bass might be inaccurate as both of L and R sub were on at the same time. As I said I am a newbie


I will wait for my calibrator in a couple of week when I have my center and other speakers ready



He uses XLR out for signal generator, can I plug it in trinnov's analog in and reroute the signal to what ever speaker I want?


Thanks[/Q
I personally think 1/3 smoothing does not tell you enough. The least I use is 1/16th but usually 1/12th. The only time I use 1/3rd is for comparing channel levels to each other.

Yes, you will be able to re-route your signals.
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post #7402 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:31 AM
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The last pic shows you using a flat, 20-20kHz target curve, which will sound unnatural regardless of content. Psychoacoustically, humans are accustomed to, and therefore generally prefer, a target curve with a downward slope as frequency increases. We also tend to prefer some amount of bass boost below, say, 100Hz.

Yes i am familiar with Harman's curve but my calibrator does not recommend it.


He says that curve is like putting a hand in front of the singer mouth and I do not ask any more details
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post #7403 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:36 AM
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Yes i am familiar with Harman's curve but my calibrator does not recommend it.


He says that curve is like putting a hand in front of the singer mouth and I do not ask any more details
Whether or not the Harman curve is exactly to your taste, it will be a million times better than a flat, 20-20kHz target curve.
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post #7404 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:44 AM
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Whether or not the Harman curve is exactly to your taste, it will be a million times better than a flat, 20-20kHz target curve.



Can someone post their's Harman curve here? I will try it.


Thanks
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post #7405 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 08:56 AM
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Can someone post their's Harman curve here? I will try it.


Thanks
I posted a link in my previous post.
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post #7406 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 09:01 AM
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How can I change graph's range?
Use the "zoom" button.
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post #7407 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 09:38 AM
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Good news, Trinnovites*! Curt showed me the latest Beta, and it does allow copying/moving target curves between pre-sets.

Looks like the official release is getting close.



* Trinnovians?
Trinnovists?
Or, since Curt and I are rabid espresso makers, we could be Trinnovistas?
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post #7408 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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Good news, Trinnovites*! Curt showed me the latest Beta, and it does allow copying/moving target curves between pre-sets.

Looks like the official release is getting close.



Trinnovians?
Trinnovists?
Or, since Curt and I are rabid espresso makers, we could be Trinnovistas?
I have the Beta and while Jon was able to make the save/load target curve work on my system, I was not (sounds like an "operator error" to me).

I sort of like Trinnovians.
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post #7409 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 09:43 AM
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I use the zoom buttom after shaping the curve hit apply only then save to a preset?





Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Use the "zoom" button.

Excuse my newbies attributes:


How do u apply a target curve? So edit, amplitude only, click apply and compute then save to a preset?


Thanks

Last edited by santodx5; 06-03-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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post #7410 of 8490 Old 06-03-2019, 09:44 AM
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Good news, Trinnovites*! Curt showed me the latest Beta, and it does allow copying/moving target curves between pre-sets.



Looks like the official release is getting close.







* Trinnovians?

Trinnovists?

Or, since Curt and I are rabid espresso makers, we could be Trinnovistas?






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