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post #7501 of 8076 Old 06-16-2019, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Just finished a new round of PEQ for _ALL_ channels < 200Hz; and new calibrations; crossover and target curve.

Result: previous presets sounds like a "table radio" compared to now. It is night and day difference. Never heard the system play this good. Bass is close to perfect; voice from center channel MUCH MUCH better.

All changes done with help from REW measurements (both PEQ; setting crossover and adjusting target curves).
I will test out different advanced settings and do REW measurements to see the effect. Then continue with FIR EQ.
Did you also limit Optimizer to 200Hz or just PEQs?
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post #7502 of 8076 Old 06-16-2019, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Did you also limit Optimizer to 200Hz or just PEQs?
No, optimizer still works all the way - I just used the PEQ to pull down the extreme peaks. I actually ran the sub's with gain 0dB; to match them to speakers I previously had them to -6dB gain (on the subs). This way I could pull down the curve to a fairly straight line - the optimizer fixes the smaller details.

Edit:
One important note I got from Trinnov; if you use PEQ - this should be done before you run calibration. Adjusting PEQ post optimizer will destroy the sound. PEQ works when you enable bypass as well.

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post #7503 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 08:31 AM
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So if I've already done a calibration....and want to play with PEQ....I'll have to re-calibrate again for the best sound? That I did not know. I've already had a calibration done by a pro...
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post #7504 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
So if I've already done a calibration....and want to play with PEQ....I'll have to re-calibrate again for the best sound? That I did not know. I've already had a calibration done by a pro...


Depends on what you are trying to do and what kind of changes you are planning to make. But you most certainly can play with PEQs. I would make a copy of the preset you are going to play with and rename something else --- and play with the new copy
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post #7505 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
So if I've already done a calibration....and want to play with PEQ....I'll have to re-calibrate again for the best sound? That I did not know. I've already had a calibration done by a pro...
Without planning to do a recalibration; I would go for the target curve or output EQs. Don't shoot the messenger - I just repeat what I have been told multiple times.
Quote:
Do not touch PEQ post calibration.
Edit:
Of course; if you take a copy of your preset and play around - no harm will come to you

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post #7506 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Depends on what you are trying to do and what kind of changes you are planning to make. But you most certainly can play with PEQs. I would make a copy of the preset you are going to play with and rename something else --- and play with the new copy
As you say, it depends on what you're doing.

Impacting the tonal balance of what you hear in the room - that's where you would use PEQ to hammer down relatively high Q peaks in the bass region, using one of more measurement tools (REW, OmniMic) and either REW's Auto EQ or (better yet IMO, at least for sub response) the MSO software. The intention would be for this pre-EQ to be seen when you're running the Trinnov Optimizer's acoustic correction. This PEQ is intended to be permanent for a given calibration, so it should get saved to a profile name in the PEQ and loaded on a baseline preset from the calibration.

Post-calibration tweaks to target response curves above the transition frequency - I know some people use PEQ to add to the filters generated for tonal balance, but I personally prefer FIR EQ for that because I find it more intuitive. For example, I measured post-Optimizer full sweep frequency response (15 Hz - 20 kHz) in REW, and overlaid sets of curves (i.e. L/R, L/C/R, pairs of height speakers using the psychoacoustic smoothing option). I save all my FIR work as files and load them for the preset as I need to. Nice thing about FIR changes is they're relatively quick and easy to do with a tablet pen or point and click. It's generally also what I use for music-related tweaks, such as making Bruce less nasal.

Movies where I want to restore filtered low bass - a number of us, as well as more hands-on AVSers, have implemented low shelf, PEQ and MV settings dedicated to specific movies. These are listed on the Bass EQ thread. That's where I create movie specific settings, using the Bass EQ recommendations, and add them to my "tonal balance" PEQ settings before saving each movie. That way Trinnov is using the same settings as you intended for the Acoustic Optimizer to "see through", but the extra filters can be loaded/deleted for specific movies that you've saved. I believe Mark Seaton has done some experimentation with these "post-cal" additional BassEQ settings and can elaborate if need be.

So post-cal, you can have that Black Hawk Down special set of filters ready to load to all ways of the subs (summated response), as a combination of the tonal balance PEQ and the "temporary" movie settings that would then be on the Input side. Just be careful to revert to your intended "baseline" PEQ filters as part of the calibration, and not make every movie have the Black Hawk Down target curve!
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post #7507 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 02:48 PM
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I will have my three Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders s up front in my theater. https://aerialacoustics.com/7t/ The 7ts are 47” high and have the tweeter towards the top.

I will have six Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs for front wide surrounds, side surrounds and rear surrounds mounted on the side walls. https://aerialacoustics.com/7lcr/ The 7LCRs are 38” high with the tweeter in the middle.

Am I correct in assuming that the 7LCRs should be on wall mounted so that the tweeters are at the same height as the floorstanding 7ts?
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post #7508 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I will have my three Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders s up front in my theater. https://aerialacoustics.com/7t/ The 7ts are 47” high and have the tweeter towards the top.

I will have six Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs for front wide surrounds, side surrounds and rear surrounds mounted on the side walls. https://aerialacoustics.com/7lcr/ The 7LCRs are 38” high with the tweeter in the middle.

Am I correct in assuming that the 7LCRs should be on wall mounted so that the tweeters are at the same height as the floorstanding 7ts?
That is not what I would do nor did (the tweeters in all of my 9 ear level speakers are identical). I would mount them so the tweeters are maybe ~6" above your ears while seated. That way, your head does not block the sound from the folks on either side of you!
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post #7509 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I will have my three Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders s up front in my theater. https://aerialacoustics.com/7t/ The 7ts are 47” high and have the tweeter towards the top.

I will have six Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs for front wide surrounds, side surrounds and rear surrounds mounted on the side walls. https://aerialacoustics.com/7lcr/ The 7LCRs are 38” high with the tweeter in the middle.

Am I correct in assuming that the 7LCRs should be on wall mounted so that the tweeters are at the same height as the floorstanding 7ts?
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That is not what I would do nor did (the tweeters in all of my 9 ear level speakers are identical). I would mount them so the tweeters are maybe ~6" above your ears while seated. That way, your head does not block the sound from the folks on either side of you!
Chuck, thanks. As always, what you say makes good [email protected]@@

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post #7510 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
...Post-calibration tweaks to target response curves above the transition frequency - I know some people use PEQ to add to the filters generated for tonal balance, but I personally prefer FIR EQ for that because I find it more intuitive. For example, I measured post-Optimizer full sweep frequency response (15 Hz - 20 kHz) in REW, and overlaid sets of curves (i.e. L/R, L/C/R, pairs of height speakers using the psychoacoustic smoothing option). I save all my FIR work as files and load them for the preset as I need to. Nice thing about FIR changes is they're relatively quick and easy to do with a tablet pen or point and click. It's generally also what I use for music-related tweaks, such as making Bruce less nasal.

Movies where I want to restore filtered low bass - a number of us, as well as more hands-on AVSers, have implemented low shelf, PEQ and MV settings dedicated to specific movies. These are listed on the Bass EQ thread. That's where I create movie specific settings, using the Bass EQ recommendations, and add them to my "tonal balance" PEQ settings before saving each movie. That way Trinnov is using the same settings as you intended for the Acoustic Optimizer to "see through", but the extra filters can be loaded/deleted for specific movies that you've saved. I believe Mark Seaton has done some experimentation with these "post-cal" additional BassEQ settings and can elaborate if need be.

So post-cal, you can have that Black Hawk Down special set of filters ready to load to all ways of the subs (summated response), as a combination of the tonal balance PEQ and the "temporary" movie settings that would then be on the Input side. Just be careful to revert to your intended "baseline" PEQ filters as part of the calibration, and not make every movie have the Black Hawk Down target curve!

Hey Stu

I've found the FIR (looks like it works like another target curve), User (GEQ) & Preset EQ (GEQ) settings on the Output tab, so at least that's a step forward since I haven't gotten that far in the Journey and didn't know they were there! Now I do.

In general, how do you decide to use one and which one to use? All based on post-Optimizer room measurements, or do you adjust on-the-fly like an old graphic EQ? If you're using these FIR EQ adjustments as temporary tweaks, I assume they don't get saved to the preset but to a file. Correct? I do see the place where you save & load them.

I need to get out the manual again. Your post reinforces how powerful the Altitude is and all the tools at one's disposal - just need to learn why & how to use them.

Steve

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post #7511 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 04:43 PM
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Hey Stu

I've found the FIR (looks like it works like another target curve), User (GEQ) & Preset EQ (GEQ) settings on the Output tab, so at least that's a step forward since I haven't gotten that far in the Journey and didn't know they were there! Now I do.
Yep, that's it. It was one of the first features I noticed on the Optimizer when I spent several hours at a friend's house, in two-channel listening (+subs). The on-the-fly flexibility, and ability to adjust to taste on music was the #1 thing that motivated me to go from the R-972 to the full featured Trinnov processing as soon as I could. Then the Altitude came along and the rest was history...just remember, this is on top (after) the Optimizer's acoustic corrections and any PEQ that you have enabled prior to running to Optimizer as part of the room EQ process.

Quote:
In general, how do you decide to use one and which one to use? All based on post-Optimizer room measurements, or do you adjust on-the-fly like an old graphic EQ? If you're using these FIR EQ adjustments as temporary tweaks, I assume they don't get saved to the preset but to a file. Correct? I do see the place where you save & load them.
Depends. I used FIR for the results from room measurement to identify tweaks to the target curve's measured results on a channel by channel basis, so I could quickly A/B changes in content (saving my settings in a file, i.e. "October 30th tweaks v2.0"). I have a preset where it's automatically loaded and I can A/B vs. the most recent full room EQ I had The FIR-based EQ can be quicker than recalculating all the filters as you can, say, raise 400 Hz up +3db for the center speaker and just run that change rather than waiting for the full 13.4.6 to rerun. There's no IIR filter at work on the Output tab, so it's something you'd use above the transition frequency, where IIR isn't (typically set to) having an impact.

For more subtle changes to match how you hear music, such as slightly honky singers or a dull midrange on a specific recording, I usually do the GEQ if I just want to hear something quickly, or bring out the tablet pen and go to the FIR EQ. The graphic EQ is a little cruder and easier to work with for the listed frequencies, but IMO the FIR is more precision and yet harder to get right. As for rolled off bass on some music, that's more of a separate target curve setting as you can use IIR for subs there as well as FIR/IIR for mains in the bass range, so it's more powerful.

It's a bit of a tradeoff to do well IMO with post-calibration tweaks with the FIR/GEQ, but it's really a personal preference thing. If I had a pre-engineered room and had the HAA education when I did the entire room, maybe I'd do less tweaking, however, as some of what we think needs to be changed might be more symptoms of subtle room issues that could be better addressed upfront. Regardless, it's fun to just pull out the iPad and play with some cut for DIY "remastering".

Quote:
I need to get out the manual again. Your post reinforces how powerful the Altitude is and all the tools at one's disposal - just need to learn why &
how to use them.
Fun for the whole family. LOL.
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post #7512 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 05:14 PM
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Very interesting discussion.

I tend to use post Optimizer PEQs, to find/address audio anomalies. And those are usually involving the center channel for vocals -- and occasionally the bass. I've never used the GEQ (never liked them when that is all there were and still don't) but found the FIR too tedious -- doesn't fit well with my personality on the occasions I've used it. I know Adam didn't use either when he initially tuned my room. And it sounded pretty amazing to me - and everyone else that has heard it.

The good news about this incredible product is all of the tools, options, and settings that are available to extract the very best out of our systems. But, when you have a personality like mine, it is way too easy to spend hours and hours and hours trying the trillion combinations and permutations and never have any time left to actually enjoy the primary purpose we have home theaters. And even recognizing I have this tendency, I still struggle with it.

My current level of diddling is pretty much now limited to making subtle (and some not so subtle) target curve changes. Whenever I drag out my OmniMic kit, my wife says (after rolling her eyes), "What are you changing now?".

There are times I wish I knew absolutely nothing about any of this stuff and just left (almost) well enough alone. But not often !!
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post #7513 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 05:21 PM
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Fun for the whole family. LOL.

Sometimes I get eye-rolls or huffing from the wife when I hit pause to change presets or check something out so this can only subtract from my Domestic Tranquility Factor - we always try to keep it in the plus zone
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post #7514 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 05:23 PM
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...Whenever I drag out my OmniMic kit, my wife says (after rolling her eyes), "What are you changing now?"

Must be a universal thing

Steve
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I get eye-rolls anytime UPS/Fedex arrive with a big box....

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post #7516 of 8076 Old 06-17-2019, 07:17 PM
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I get eye-rolls anytime UPS/Fedex arrive with a big box....
When we go on vacation, Amazon's stock drops 10% and UPS and FedEX lay off employees. So multiple large boxes arriving at our home is the norm.
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post #7517 of 8076 Old 06-18-2019, 08:57 AM
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I will have my three Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders s up front in my theater. https://aerialacoustics.com/7t/ The 7ts are 47” high and have the tweeter towards the top.

I will have six Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs for front wide surrounds, side surrounds and rear surrounds mounted on the side walls. https://aerialacoustics.com/7lcr/ The 7LCRs are 38” high with the tweeter in the middle.

Am I correct in assuming that the 7LCRs should be on wall mounted so that the tweeters are at the same height as the floorstanding 7ts?
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That is not what I would do nor did (the tweeters in all of my 9 ear level speakers are identical). I would mount them so the tweeters are maybe ~6" above your ears while seated. That way, your head does not block the sound from the folks on either side of you!
Jon Herron of Trinnov gave me the following answer, somewhat similar to Audioguy:

"It depends… if you listen alone (which I think you mostly do?), you are correct. Maximizing the distinction between listener-level and elevated channels is more immersive. However, most home theaters are designed for multiple listeners. In that case, we recommend elevating the surround by a foot or so above ear level and locating them slightly out of perfect alignment with any given row of seating so as to avoid head occlusion of the sound by the person sitting next to you."

Actually, I have two rows of seating. For comfort, I have Lazy Boy recliners which are I wish a little less high back. And I like to listen to music (ROON Ready ethernet) in the back row, video in the front row. So elevating the surround tweeters (floorstanding Aerial 7t tweeters are close to ear level) by at least 6" to no more than 1' higher than ear level is a good idea for me, too! Plus my theatre is 12' high, so plenty of room to differentiate between the bottom and top music layers!

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post #7518 of 8076 Old 06-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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Hi Marc,

Thank you for your input.

Some questions/remarks:

What do you mean with "use the designed active crossover"? Are you referring to the crossover data from the manufacturer or to the actual crossover (hardware)?
The designed active crossover refers to the complete designed set of filters, relative levels, and any delays, where ever it is implemented, which in this case would either be an external DSP or amp with DSP, or internal to a processor like the Altitude.


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I could be wrong here, but I thought that it's rather straightforward to set a crossover frequency in the Trinnov and route the high and low to two separated outputs. You can also add separated EQ's (not sure about the limits here) to both outputs. Wouldn't that be enough to set-up a complete crossover section for the M2's?
Setting a crossover frequency, type, relative level, and even delay is very easy in the Trinnov. Especially for a speaker like the M2 using a large woofer mated to a waveguide, all of those PEQs matter. My point is that it is important to get all of the filters entered correctly. The part you are probably missing is that the info you posted included 3 blocks of filtering. One for the high frequency output, one for the low frequency output, and another on the input before the crossover.

Even the low pass on the woofer might require some adjustment or input from JBL to confirm, as you can only enter one filter, and I doubt most would know what the combination of the pair of 18dB/oct Butterworth filters is as a single low pass if the Trinnov even offers it as a selection. The 12dB/Oct high shelf might require 2 filters to execute, or understanding of Q setting on the shelf filter if Trinnov offers it (I don't recall). All of the PEQ seen in block P4 has to be copied to BOTH high frequency and low frequency outputs.

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I's like to avoid this option, as the number of amps that can do this is very limited (Crown?). IMHO such amps are noisy (fan cooled) and the quality might not be good enough to squeeze the best performance from the M2's.
You are correct that you will mostly only find these solutions in the pro/studio world, and they are designed with a separate equipment room in mind where fan noise isn't a concern. There are many options beyond Crown, but it can be harder to find the very low noise floor you can find in quality home audio products.

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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Agreed, but as those for the M2 were kindly provided by Wookii, the Trinnov should do fine, I guess.
The Altitude should definitely be able to be execute JBL's DSP crossover for the M2. It will require some translation, and I would triple check with real measurements using REW or OmniMic at 2-6' in front of the horn with all of the filtering in place. You aren't looking to EQ from this measurement, but make sure nothing looks too bizarre above ~500Hz.

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post #7519 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 01:28 PM
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Altitude 16

I am planning to purchase an Altitude 16 in the near future and was wondering if it is still sold with HDMI 1.4 boards or if all the inputs are now HDMI 2.0? Also, does the Altitude 16 include the 3D Microphone/cables etc. or is it sold separately.

Thanks!
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post #7520 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by nbynw View Post
I am planning to purchase an Altitude 16 in the near future and was wondering if it is still sold with HDMI 1.4 boards or if all the inputs are now HDMI 2.0? Also, does the Altitude 16 include the 3D Microphone/cables etc. or is it sold separately.

Thanks!
The AL16 includes the HDMI 2.0 board. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss details. Mic is a separate item.

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post #7521 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbynw View Post
I am planning to purchase an Altitude 16 in the near future and was wondering if it is still sold with HDMI 1.4 boards or if all the inputs are now HDMI 2.0? Also, does the Altitude 16 include the 3D Microphone/cables etc. or is it sold separately.

Thanks!
I don't think A16 has ever been shipped with anything other than HDMI 2.0 board.

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post #7522 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I don't think A16 has ever been shipped with anything other than HDMI 2.0 board.
Yup. The only way you're going to get an Altitude with the HDMI v1.4 board now is to buy a used Altitude 32 that was manufactured before the board upgrade was possible.

The first few years the A32 had the HDMI v1.4 board (e.g. mine or Mikela's), but many (if not most) owners of those Altitudes have upgraded to the HDMI 2.0b board. IIRC there's a firmware upgrade needed for the board itself, or there was, so it's less trivial for those of us with earlier model Altitudes, at least if you're not hands-on or having a Trinnov facility or dealer upgrade it.

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post #7523 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 03:50 PM
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I just took delivery of a trinnov, along with db25 connection cords. I have not opened the trinnov yet, but the db25 cords have Phoenix terminals for crown amps. I am wondering if I have the correct thing. Does Trinnov make a db25 cord with xlr connections?

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post #7524 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
I just took delivery of a trinnov, along with db25 connection cords. I have not opened the trinnov yet, but the db25 cords have Phoenix terminals for crown amps. I am wondering if I have the correct thing. Does Trinnov make a db25 cord with xlr connections?
Did you buy an Altitude 32, which comes with the DB-25 outputs? I personally use DB-25->XLR cables that I custom ordered to my length and connector requirements at Pro Audio LA, thanks to a tip from Rur. That works out well with my NAD M27 amps.

You had mentioned on another thread that you were getting JBL speakers; maybe the dealer you worked with assumed that you were going to use dedicated Crown amps or planning a JBL Synthesis system. Otherwise I'm not sure about why you received DB-25 cables.
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post #7525 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
I just took delivery of a trinnov, along with db25 connection cords. I have not opened the trinnov yet, but the db25 cords have Phoenix terminals for crown amps. I am wondering if I have the correct thing. Does Trinnov make a db25 cord with xlr connections?
Congrats, penny! DB25>XLR's may be found from various pro audio suppliers, and several of us have purchased custom lengths from proaudiola.com Make sure you purchase one with Tascam pinout, not Yamaha or other pinout.
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post #7526 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Did you buy an Altitude 32, which comes with the DB-25 outputs? I personally use DB-25->XLR cables that I custom ordered to my length and connector requirements at Pro Audio LA, thanks to a tip from Rur. That works out well with my NAD M27 amps.

You had mentioned on another thread that you were getting JBL speakers; maybe the dealer you worked with assumed that you were going to use dedicated Crown amps or planning a JBL Synthesis system. Otherwise I'm not sure about why you received DB-25 cables.
Thanks for the response

Yes, I purchased the Trinnov 16-32, and since it only has 16 xlr connections on the back, I went ahead and also purchased 2 db25 cables as well. I thought they would just be xlr, but they are Phoenix.

At the time I purchased the cables, I didn't own crown amps for surrounds, but I did, in fact, order dci crown amps that also have Phoenix terminals. I guess I was just expecting straight xlr connections on the db25 cables instead.

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post #7527 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Congrats, penny! DB25>XLR's may be found from various pro audio suppliers, and several of us have purchased custom lengths from proaudiola.com Make sure you purchase one with Tascam pinout, not Yamaha or other pinout.
Thanks for the info RUR! Much appreciated. I had assumed that I could purchase a cable directly from Trinnov to avoid Phoenix connections.

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post #7528 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 04:28 PM
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My dealer is still waiting for the 9 * Piega AP 1.2 speakers. Amplitude 8M has been available for weeks - I hate this waiting game.....
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post #7529 of 8076 Old 06-19-2019, 05:23 PM
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DB25>XLR's may be found from various pro audio suppliers, and several of us have purchased custom lengths from proaudiola.com
Custom lengths, custom cable colors and colored ring combinations
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post #7530 of 8076 Old 06-20-2019, 04:20 AM
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Last night I experimented with temporary GEQ's for LCR. Got my occasional 80's fix with a Power Station CD. Hadn't listened to it ~10 yrs It has the typical loudness wars characteristics - compression, loud, over-bright & harsh. Especially with ribbon tweets capable of 40Khz!

A few slider cuts in the 5-10K range and it was much more listenable, still had punchy bass & "drum" hits (real or synth?) but with less ear-bleeding, still bright but tolerable. My GEQ was temporary, on-the-fly gross adjustments just to hear the effect. But I can see a value in creating several User EQ's as files for taming less-audiophilic recordings. I didn't attempt to do a FIR EQ, since using a graphic EQ is so easy, especially for some of us who had a slider box back-in-the-day (mine was an AudioControl 101 complete with dancing LEDs, even had pink noise & a pro mic).

I can also see spending many hours to create hundreds of movie/music specific EQ's And life's too short for me to go that far If room measurements/PEQ is the cake & Optimizer is layers of delicious icing on the cake, adding GEQ/FIR EQ is a cherry on top. Nice to have the ability to occasionally tweak but definitely not mandatory for a great Trinnov Experience

Thanks for the tip, Stu & others! Always learning something new with this beast. Many tools in the kit.
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Last edited by ss9001; 06-20-2019 at 04:50 AM.
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