Trinnov Altitude - Page 265 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3664Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #7921 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 02:20 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
appelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: A Hilton property near you!
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked: 722
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Ah, perhaps you mean that REW has more built-in tools for acoustic analysis than Trinnov is likely to provide?

Ayup. I can't see much value in Trinnov adding that sort of feature set when there are a half dozen really good solutions already out there, one of which is free.

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video, Level III Trinnov Altitude Calibrator
Mercenary Calibrator for Manufacturers, Integrators and System Owners
appelz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7922 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 02:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Trinnov actually got very complex solutions for realtime measurements (way more complex than REW); called SmartMeter. This only works with their pro models; we might see this on the Altitude one day (a simplified version)?

- Four complementary Loudness Meters (EBU R128)
- Peak Meter (sample-peak)
- Quasi-Peak Meter (DIN 45406)
- True-Peak Meter (EBU R128)
- Real-Time spectrum analyzer (1/3rd octave)
- Surround Sound Analyzer: Level, Phase and Interchannel Phase correlation meters
- 2-channel audio vectorscope including a stereo correlator and true peak meter
- Monitoring Controller with source switching, DRC and Downmix activation
ccool96 likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 07-11-2019 at 02:33 PM.
Berland is online now  
post #7923 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 02:27 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,361
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1688 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Precisely that, it needs more than Trinnov is likely to provide without turning itself into a complete HAA calibration kit.
Actually, I retract my initial support for the idea of adding some sort of after-Optimizer real time measurement. I was thinking how I'd use it - namely looking at speaker/sub integration. But there are other ways to do this in "real time" which have a broad toolkit for assessment (REW, AudioTools, and the like).

An HAA calibration kit or other external assessment approach is going to be more flexible, allow multiple mic position measurements that you can look at individually or with spatial averaging (software permitting). More than that, there's a potential issue I could see where the Altitude's calibration is run at one level of octave smoothing, and someone plays with the display's setting and inadvertedly shows results with higher resolution than the acoustic correction was intended to solve.

More than that, if you're serious about looking at the sub or speaker/sub response in the bass region, you want to look at no smoothing plots anyway up to about 300 Hz, as AustinJerry has codified in the REW/HDMI guide he put together. Otherwise you might wind up masking actual problems in the room that need changes to sub placement and/or acoustic treatment depending on where they're occuring- where just graphing, make a tweak->hit generate filters, and looking again by itself shouldn't be used to solve. Besides, there's all the fun stuff like THD % distortion for subs that you can measure with REW that isn't part of acoustic correction as such .

It's also mission creep, as Maikel points out, and does risk lending itself to abuse, especially since Trinnov is a strong advocate of acoustic treatment for the room. I forget the exact interview, but IIRC Arnaud Laborie once gave a quote to the effect that even a Ferrari needs the right type of tires and maintenance before you can make full effect of its capabilities as a high performance car, speaking specifically about the Altitude.

One thing that Berland did list that I might want: an RTA frequency analyzer with adjustible octave smoothing (say 1/6th along with 1/3rd) might be nice in the LFE/sub region for doing Bass EQ type changes to music. But there are other ways to do this, such as JRiver, that you can use for content to do so.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification

Last edited by sdrucker; 07-11-2019 at 06:46 PM.
sdrucker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7924 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 02:28 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,361
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1688 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Ayup. I can't see much value in Trinnov adding that sort of feature set when there are a half dozen really good solutions already out there, one of which is free.
Right as usual - you and Maikel swayed me on second thought .

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification
sdrucker is offline  
post #7925 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 03:39 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,361
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1688 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I'm not swimming in money; we have a cheap car that cost 1/20 of the Altitude32 32 channel version. It is all about priority. I still feel the Altitude is the best investment I have ever done regarding audio/video equipment. You start really happy with the device, but get more and more excited as time goes by. Not many devices are able to pull this off; so I'm impressed.

This is even after my device had issues with the firewire boards. Trinnov even managed to make a faulty device feel good
Same here - we're keeping a 15 year old car going because for us, a car is just for commuting to one job, running errands/shopping and some family stuff. And while it's comfortable, we get a lot more enjoyment out of our overpriced urban location and the HT .

Agree about the Altitude - it really sets the stage for everything else I've done with some judicious A/V shopping decisions. I wish I could do a room like thebland or Art, but life is about tradeoffs. It's also a great investment because as software updates ahead of the curve are added, it's relative value to me will only go up.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification
sdrucker is offline  
post #7926 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 04:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jdlynch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 1,174
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 372 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Same here - we're keeping a 15 year old car going because for us, a car is just for commuting to one job, running errands/shopping and some family stuff. And while it's comfortable, we get a lot more enjoyment out of our overpriced urban location and the HT .

Agree about the Altitude - it really sets the stage for everything else I've done with some judicious A/V shopping decisions. I wish I could do a room like thebland or Art, but life is about tradeoffs. It's also a great investment because as software updates ahead of the curve are added, it's relative value to me will only go up.
Not an Altitude owner, but I felt compelled to chime in. Our newest car is ten years old, and we live a modest lifestyle. Most of our discretionary budget goes towards our kids’ graduate school costs. However, I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of our home theater. My lowly Datasat remains my best audio investment and still puts a smile on my face after three years. Thinking back, I sometimes cant believe I spent so much on a processor.

Regarding the Altitude, I have never had the opportunity to demo one, so I guess ignorance is bliss
appelz likes this.

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC, ATI AT6005, Audio Control Savoy G3, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), SR3's sides, LR3's (rears),(4) RSL C34E’s (Atmos), Submersive HP, Marantz VP15s1, 123" diag 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve screen, Oppo BDP-103, Palliser Flicks Seating AC Power: Eaton whole-house surge protector at main panel, (3) 20 amp circuits, Surgex XR315 at equipment rack, Cyberpower 1400VA/900 watt, true sine wave UPS.
jdlynch is online now  
post #7927 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 06:32 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
appelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: A Hilton property near you!
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked: 722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
At what point is a speaker considered full range? My L and R go down to 30hz and my surrounds down to 33. Only reason I’m asking is the crossover point on my processor only goes to 40hz. Should I even bother sending the bottom octave to the subs or just leave them set as large speakers? (PS - this is on a McIntosh MX122, but I’m asking here because from what I’ve read you all seem to know your stuff. And I’ll need to know when I get my Altitude16 for Christmas lol)
For many reasons, you will want to set the crossover to 80Hz or close to it. I will sometimes go as low as 60Hz, but pretty rarely.

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video, Level III Trinnov Altitude Calibrator
Mercenary Calibrator for Manufacturers, Integrators and System Owners
appelz is offline  
post #7928 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 06:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post
Not an Altitude owner, but I felt compelled to chime in. Our newest car is ten years old, and we live a modest lifestyle. Most of our discretionary budget goes towards our kids’ graduate school costs. However, I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of our home theater. My lowly Datasat remains my best audio investment and still puts a smile on my face after three years. Thinking back, I sometimes cant believe I spent so much on a processor.

Regarding the Altitude, I have never had the opportunity to demo one, so I guess ignorance is bliss
Don't test an Altitude, your kids' graduate school budget will be gone

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #7929 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 06:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
At what point is a speaker considered full range? My L and R go down to 30hz and my surrounds down to 33. Only reason I’m asking is the crossover point on my processor only goes to 40hz. Should I even bother sending the bottom octave to the subs or just leave them set as large speakers? (PS - this is on a McIntosh MX122, but I’m asking here because from what I’ve read you all seem to know your stuff. And I’ll need to know when I get my Altitude16 for Christmas lol)
Leave them as small; small isn't a bad thing regarding the normal surround processor. It is a setting for bass management (so it got nothing to do with you feeling bad, or hurting your male ego, calling your full range expensive speakers small ) Setting them to large will deactivate the crossover all together; and you front left/right will not get any assistance from the sub(s). There is also an option on most processors to send bass frequencies below crossover to both the speaker itself and the sub (double bass; not a good thing!).

This is the beauty with the Altitude, crossover can be set to any frequency for each individual speaker.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #7930 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 06:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Currently I'm enjoying some me-time with my Altitude32, while marking where to get the ceiling speakers mounted tomorrow. When will this madness end?.... I know the answer: never

When I started with my laser guided distance measurer and setting black dots in the ceiling - my wife gave up and went to bed

Edit:
9 speakers are a ****load of speakers in the ceiling.... it all gets much clearer when you see the markings.
sdrucker likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 07-11-2019 at 07:09 PM.
Berland is online now  
post #7931 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 07:32 PM
Rise & Grind
 
dinamigym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: SW Burb of Chicago
Posts: 531
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 330 Post(s)
Liked: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Currently I'm enjoying some me-time with my Altitude32, while marking where to get the ceiling speakers mounted tomorrow. When will this madness end?.... I know the answer: never



When I started with my laser guided distance measurer and setting black dots in the ceiling - my wife gave up and went to bed



Edit:

9 speakers are a ****load of speakers in the ceiling.... it all gets much clearer when you see the markings.


Ha! That’s fantastic!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Trinnov Altitude 16, Magico A3, Magico ACC, Magico A1s, Dual Rythmik FV25HP
Amps- ATI AT523NC, AT524NC, AT528NC
Kaleidescape Terra Server/Strato, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV4k, XFinity X1
Sony VPL-VW5000, 136" 2.35:1 Stewart Studiotek 100 screen, Lumagen Pro 4242
dinamigym is online now  
post #7932 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 07:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5133 Post(s)
Liked: 3998
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post
Not an Altitude owner, but I felt compelled to chime in. Our newest car is ten years old, and we live a modest lifestyle. Most of our discretionary budget goes towards our kids’ graduate school costs. However, I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of our home theater. My lowly Datasat remains my best audio investment and still puts a smile on my face after three years. Thinking back, I sometimes cant believe I spent so much on a processor.

Regarding the Altitude, I have never had the opportunity to demo one, so I guess ignorance is bliss
As I have stated more than once, if your "lowly Datasat" was calibrated by someone with the proper knowledge and tools, you have a 7.x.4 system (or less), and your room is properly treated, you have as good as it gets.
appelz and The Bogg like this.
audioguy is offline  
post #7933 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 07:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5133 Post(s)
Liked: 3998
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Actually, I retract my initial support for the idea of adding some sort of after-Optimizer real time measurement.
While I also assumed that this non-existent Trinnov-based measurement system would also be used for pre-Optimizer measurements to assist in setting PEQs, I have also decided it is not a good idea.

Trinnov is not some huge company and I would rather them focus all of their attention on what they do best and leave the measurement tools to those who do that best.
sdrucker and Papouche Le Mec like this.
audioguy is offline  
post #7934 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 08:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
The Bogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,329
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Don't test an Altitude, your kids' graduate school budget will be gone
Don't bet on it...some people prefer the Datasat sound

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
The Bogg is offline  
post #7935 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 08:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
The Bogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,329
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While I also assumed that this non-existent Trinnov-based measurement system would also be used for pre-Optimizer measurements to assist in setting PEQs, I have also decided it is not a good idea.

Trinnov is not some huge company and I would rather them focus all of their attention on what they do best and leave the measurement tools to those who do that best.
They've already got the measurement tool...it's what measures the room response Pre optimization. It shouldn't be all that hard to run the same test signals through the Altitude Post optimization....

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
The Bogg is offline  
post #7936 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 09:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Don't bet on it...some people prefer the Datasat sound
I agree, the Datasat is really good, but the Altitude is better in my opinion. Besides, there are no Trinnov sound - it can sound however you would like

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #7937 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 09:30 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,135
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
At what point is a speaker considered full range? My L and R go down to 30hz and my surrounds down to 33.

Just because they can reproduce that freq doesn't mean they can do it w/o significant distortion and power compression.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #7938 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 09:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Just because they can reproduce that freq doesn't mean they can do it w/o significant distortion and power compression.
It is fairly easy to check; if you have this small vs large thingy (which most processors do in one or another form). Set them to small; playback; switch to large - and listen to what sounds best. Keep the one you prefer.

But most music does not even go into the sub 30 Hz area, so kind of hard to compare the real benefits of the sub. Of course, if the sub's are not integrated correctly (hard to do if you don't have an Altitude, Datasat or similar). Usually crossover at 80Hz is a good place to be with slope at 24dB/oct.
noah katz likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #7939 of 9455 Old 07-11-2019, 10:29 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,135
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
But most music does not even go into the sub 30 Hz area, so kind of hard to compare the real benefits of the sub.

True, but then there's pipe organ music, and movies, which is the application I had in mind.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #7940 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 03:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5133 Post(s)
Liked: 3998
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
They've already got the measurement tool...it's what measures the room response Pre optimization. It shouldn't be all that hard to run the same test signals through the Altitude Post optimization....
If you have compared what we see on the Trinnov graphs section vs what you can get on, for example, REW, the current display capabilities would need some work. And what about plots for RT60 (or any number of other calculations) that are available and useful with external programs? Certainly some of the data may be there, but it would still take resources (and then on-going support) to fully flesh out a useful set of tools. And as I noted, I would much prefer them to use the resources they have to continue to update and maintain their core competency.

Now, if they should all wake one morning and realize the Altitude was already PERFECT, then moving on to what we have been discussing would be a great idea.
audioguy is offline  
post #7941 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 05:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 9,358
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked: 682
Initially I too thought this was a neat idea. Thinking this through and reading the pro & con arguments, I'm also siding with the con or lukewarm side.

While the idea is appealing for a total in-house set of tools, there are some pitfalls. Even with just a RTA, there are the implications of showing differences of real vs computed and the confusion that may cause to users unfamiliar with subtleties of measurement. I can envision an owner calling his calibrator, dealer or Trinnov asking why the graphs are different or thinking there's a "problem" when there isn't. It could be a time-consuming task to explain the nuances of room measuring to non-enthusiast owners who happen to try out the feature.

And the more complicated the software, the more chances for "unintended consequences" or real bugs. That take oodles of testing with different scenarios to sort out.

So IMHO, it's best for Trinnov to concentrate on their core functionality which is tremendous and use pro-audio software, REW or similar (XTZ, Omnimic) for their functionalities and strengths.

Reading through the posts, I'm reminded of something I read recently on the ongoing problems with the US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program. The F-35 was designed to be a single plane with different versions that would serve the needs of all branches of service - ultra-fast stealthy fighter-bomber for the Air Force, vertical take-off/landing for Marines, and carrier based performance for the Navy. While the Air Force version seems mostly to work as intended, the Marine & Navy versions are reported to have serious performance deficiencies, even to the point that currently it isn't stable higher than 20 deg attack angle! 20 deg isn't much when you see clips of older fighters nearly vertical! And this is a $500 Billion program. The last time I remember they attempted a one-plane bomber/fighter for every service, the Vietnam/McNamara era F-111, it also had issues along the way.

With all the tools in the Altitude already, adding what REW etc could end up similar to the F-35, looks good on paper but a *itch to make work.

Sorry for the OT sidebar but it seemed a decent real-world & uber-expensive analogy
sdrucker likes this.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-12-2019 at 07:17 AM.
ss9001 is offline  
post #7942 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
The Bogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,329
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Just because they can reproduce that freq doesn't mean they can do it w/o significant distortion and power compression.
Reminds me of the Bag End subwoofers claim to be "flat to 10hz". They were flat to 10hz...at 70db spl, but as spl got higher there was huge power compression below 20hz, which is not unexpected for almost any small single sub.

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
The Bogg is offline  
post #7943 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 07:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
The Bogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,329
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
At what point is a speaker considered full range? My L and R go down to 30hz and my surrounds down to 33. Only reason I’m asking is the crossover point on my processor only goes to 40hz. Should I even bother sending the bottom octave to the subs or just leave them set as large speakers? (PS - this is on a McIntosh MX122, but I’m asking here because from what I’ve read you all seem to know your stuff. And I’ll need to know when I get my Altitude16 for Christmas lol)
A speaker's frequency response rating is the manufacturer's "best case" measurement possibly in an anechoic chamber. In a user's home the frequency response may not reproduce the "rated" 30hz or whatever. Best thing is to see what the speaker is doing in your own home using REW or whatever and then decide if they should be run full range vs crossed over. If your mains do reach 30hz in your own room with a smooth flat frequency response see if they keep that smooth flat frequency response at the max spl you are likely to listen at. If not, crossover to the sub.

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
The Bogg is offline  
post #7944 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 08:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
The Bogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,329
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If you have compared what we see on the Trinnov graphs section vs what you can get on, for example, REW, the current display capabilities would need some work. And what about plots for RT60 (or any number of other calculations) that are available and useful with external programs? Certainly some of the data may be there, but it would still take resources (and then on-going support) to fully flesh out a useful set of tools. And as I noted, I would much prefer them to use the resources they have to continue to update and maintain their core competency.

Now, if they should all wake one morning and realize the Altitude was already PERFECT, then moving on to what we have been discussing would be a great idea.
I totally get your point. Trinnov doesn't need to include a COMPREHENSIVE measurement suite, but just a simple way to use the existing tools for post-calibration measurements. Users can still use REW or whatever for the other parameters.

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
The Bogg is offline  
post #7945 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 10:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Venger99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 206
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Does everyone have bass traps and other room sound treatments or is the altitude able to correct problems without them?
On a similar note, is it now possible to “get away with” only one sub or are multiple still preferable?
Has anyone heard Lyngdorf room perfect correction in comparison to the Trinnov?
Thanks
Venger99 is offline  
post #7946 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 12:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madhuski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,767
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1418 Post(s)
Liked: 889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
Does everyone have bass traps and other room sound treatments or is the altitude able to correct problems without them?
On a similar note, is it now possible to “get away with” only one sub or are multiple still preferable?
Has anyone heard Lyngdorf room perfect correction in comparison to the Trinnov?
Thanks

Steve has the Altitude and recently demoed a MP50. Details here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...on-review.html
madhuski is online now  
post #7947 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 01:52 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 20,226
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1676 Post(s)
Liked: 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
Steve has the Altitude and recently demoed a MP50. Details here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...on-review.html
You are selling your Alt16? I think I saw your ad over at US Audio Mart, too! Does this mean you have been persuaded to add more than 16 channels and are getting an Altitude 32?

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
Steve Bruzonsky is offline  
post #7948 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 02:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madhuski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,767
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1418 Post(s)
Liked: 889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
You are selling your Alt16? I think I saw your ad over at US Audio Mart, too! Does this mean you have been persuaded to add more than 16 channels and are getting an Altitude 32?



No, the opposite. My plans to expand are on hold so I'm staying at a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 now. This is directly related to the fact that we're watching less and less TV - maybe an hour of sports on the olympic channel or ANW (thats what my kids like....) so it seems I'm way underusing a trinnov. I don't see things changing for the foreseeable future so figure put something less expensive back in and in 5-6 years jump back.
madhuski is online now  
post #7949 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 03:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mikela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,108
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
Does everyone have bass traps and other room sound treatments or is the altitude able to correct problems without them?
On a similar note, is it now possible to “get away with” only one sub or are multiple still preferable?
Has anyone heard Lyngdorf room perfect correction in comparison to the Trinnov?
Thanks
Having a well designed acoustically treated space prior to room correction is the best approach. If you don't do that you will likely forever be adjusting the music to make up for deficiencies in the room. I believe most folks here use multiple subs utilizing the multiple sub optimization (MSO) technique in order to even out the response. I use a different technique called single bass array (SBA) which is described in my build thread.
Lasalle and RUR like this.
mikela is offline  
post #7950 of 9455 Old 07-12-2019, 03:34 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,361
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1688 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Having a well designed acoustically treated space prior to room correction is the best approach. If you don't do that you will likely forever be adjusting the music to make up for deficiencies in the room. I believe most folks here use multiple subs utilizing the multiple sub optimization (MSO) technique in order to even out the response. I use a different technique called single bass array (SBA) which is described in my build thread.
You can still find a need to adjust music to make up for deficiencies in recording standards (i.e. "circle of confusion") that are less applicable for movies. Or older recordings that were mastered to the old RIAA standard and have significant bass rolloff below, say, 60 Hz.

I think we agree that a pre-engineered, acoustically treated space as you, Lon, Art, Steve, Jeff, and many others have done is indeed the platinum standard. However, not everyone can pull that off.

That being said, there are common "stuff of life" treatments you can do - carpeting to reduce floor-based reflections, bookshelves that diffuse sound, thick curtains to cover windows, along with multiple subs, thoughtful LCR speaker layout, and careful seating placement that can compensate somewhat with measurement and iterative A/B critical listening to look at all these. There's also combinations of absorption and diffusion that can mitigate some room issues with refinement. In fact, the HAA class I took last summer took a cheap hotel room with windows and simple drywall construction and produced superior sound based on their critical dimensions for listening: clarity, focus, envelopment, smooth response, dynamics, and seat to seat consistency, using many those techniques (among others). Trinnov has embraced the HAA philosophy as a requirement for dealer certification in the future, and just finished a training session with HAA in Paris over the July 4th weekend.

But for multiple rows and seats, and more importantly room dynamics for high performance HT, as a wise person once put it, "bring money" to get the results that, say, you have. No substitute for that. Yet you can get 85% of the way there with knowledge and knowing where to spend.
appelz, Lasalle and Dimifoot like this.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification

Last edited by sdrucker; 07-12-2019 at 03:39 PM.
sdrucker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off