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post #7981 of 9122 Old 07-15-2019, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Chuck,
The brisket in San Antonio is to die for. You really should come out for a visit
San Antonio in August? Temp in the very high 90's and the humidity on the river probably exceeds 100%. The weather in the fall might be really nice. Low 80's maybe in October?

And having not consumed TexMex in more years than I can remember, I would pass on the brisket and go for Mexican food (on the river?).
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post #7982 of 9122 Old 07-15-2019, 06:28 PM
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On the Altitude32, there is an XLR stereo AES/EBU digital out. Is it possible to send LR through this in digital for channel 1 and 2 and use channels 3 to 24 in analog simultaneouly?

In other words, use 2 channel digital and the rest in analog?
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post #7983 of 9122 Old 07-15-2019, 07:11 PM
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San Antonio. In July. Just who's brisket will be cooking? OTOH, clean clear mountain air, afternoon showers to cool everything down, ahhh...

On topic, and I am sure this has been asked a thousand times, but searching this thread and a quick Internet search does not yield actual measurements or technical specifications. Anyone have a link?

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post #7984 of 9122 Old 07-15-2019, 07:19 PM
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Trinnov Altitude

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuning View Post
On the Altitude32, there is an XLR stereo AES/EBU digital out. Is it possible to send LR through this in digital for channel 1 and 2 and use channels 3 to 24 in analog simultaneouly?

In other words, use 2 channel digital and the rest in analog?


Yes, all of the LR pairs on the back panel are always active so that combination should work fine.


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post #7985 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 04:52 AM
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The system is up and running with 9 additional ceiling speakers, and calibration is done. I think I saw the 2014 Dolby Atmos demo-disc 3 times yesterday

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post #7986 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
The system is up and running with 9 additional ceiling speakers, and calibration is done. I think I saw the 2014 Dolby Atmos demo-disc 3 times yesterday

So, on the ceiling you have 8 pairs and one VOG? Other than any Auro disc you have, how does the VOG speaker get used?

And ear level: Side surrounds and wides (plus LCR and rear surrounds)?
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post #7987 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
So, on the ceiling you have 8 pairs and one VOG? Other than any Auro disc you have, how does the VOG speaker get used?

And ear level: Side surrounds and wides (plus LCR and rear surrounds)?
No I don't have a VOG; I use Ltm and Rtm for the T (then I get VOG for Auro-3D sources. I decided to go for a Ctf instead this time. VOG will be part of next upgrade round; in addition to more surround speakers. But for now I'm very happy with the result. Still need to PEQ the ceiling speakers (all other speakers are PEQ'ed).

VOG will be more applicable (same with Ctf) when we get this much talked about DTS:X Pro available



Edit:
Updated the picture; forgot to save with T on channel 17 and 18 for Auro3D

DTS:X Pro also supports in floor speakers (+/- 45 degrees Azimuth and -30 degrees Elevation). Could be fun to try. Actually this is also supported with DTS:X, but limited to 11 channels + sub; this is not a place I would use any of these channels for DTS/DTS:X
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post #7988 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 06:33 AM
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Berland, you are probably the most hard-core multichannel guy here...bravo! Do you have some actual pics of your room? Assuming you are willing to share...

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post #7989 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
No I don't have a VOG; I use Ltm and Rtm for the T (then I get VOG for Auro-3D sources. I decided to go for a Ctf instead this time.
Congratulations on your new surround layout! You will have fun with those extra speakers.



I did the same with top mids. And I did something for Ctf even though I can't put a real speaker in that position. I designated my old front hts as a Ctf in Auro layout. Phantom images a Ctf when sitting in center seat MLP. I switch between them and my rearward (quadraphonic positioned) Lrs2/Rrs2 speakers using a Niles speaker switcher that's activated by one of the Altitude 16's 12v triggers. Setup a specific source for the 12 v trigger and a special preset for the "phantomized" hts. It was work but it works & without needing an Altitude 32 for the added speakers

Of course I can't accommodate any more speakers; I'm maxed out at 16. But I love the flexibility with the Altitude, can't do any of this with a Marantz.
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post #7990 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Had a similar experience while tuning remotely with Curt Hoyt, he ran the calibration and said for me to look into an issue with the rear left speaker perhaps the pilaster it was enclosed in was not set correctly as the measurement was off for this speaker. We both were scratching our heads until I realized I had the laptop set on the bar open and in the direct pathway of Mic and rear left speaker, closed laptop and error was gone. All solutions should be that easy. Dumb meter should have gone off
Lon, you're not alone... Once upon a time I was measuring impulse response and couldn't figure out what in the hell reflection was causing a sharp peak in the response. I checked all sorts of things until I found the culprit: My open laptop, ~2 feet from the mic. Close laptop, problem solved. Facepalm.
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post #7991 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Chuck,
The brisket in San Antonio is to die for. You really should come out for a visit
1 brisket = 1 calibration. lol

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post #7992 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Berland, you are probably the most hard-core multichannel guy here...bravo! Do you have some actual pics of your room? Assuming you are willing to share...
When I have the motivation I will take a few pictures.

But I'm not the most hard-core multichannel guy here. I know we have more people in this thread with both Amplitude8 and Amplitude8M (multiple).

Edit:
Next step will be adding 2 more subs (most likely Paradigm Sub1/Sub2/Persona).

But in the future there will be a new Amplitude8M and which channels to add.... I don't know

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post #7993 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 10:44 AM
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How good is Optimizer?

After some conversation with Jon Herron, I did a little experiment. I setup two presets (5.1 configuration). One of those presets had PEQs for all channels the other had none.

In the following chart, the bottom graph (Green) is my left front speaker with no PEQs; The Red graph is the same channel with some PEQs; The Black graph is the PEQd left front speaker after Optimizer and the Blue is the un PEQd data after Optimizer.

I took one set of measurements(for each of the two presets) only at the MLP. The key settings I used in Advanced Settings for this experiment were:

Filter Length: 80ms
Number of IIR Filters: 30
IIR Minimal Frequency: 10Hz
IIR Maximal Frequency: 300Hz

These are not my normal settings. My Number of IIR filters is around 20 and Max Frequency is 150

The LFE results were not as convincing. In fact the advantage was strongly in favor of the PEQd LFE channel. Sorry. I forgot to save the plots.

The answer to my original question? Excellent!! (I will need to re-examine my current use of PEQs on the non LFE channels)

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post #7994 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 10:53 AM
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In my experience; PEQ is still gold for all channels; especially below 200Hz. I just did a calibration without any PEQ; then a new one with. Big difference, but I usually go to extensive work with PEQ (20-50 filters for each channel below 200Hz).

Edit:
So PEQ for all channels will help (if done correctly), but PEQ for sub's are in my opinion required.
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post #7995 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 11:26 AM
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Another thing, if you struggle to decide on VOG vs Ctf. If you have the center channel located right below the screen; Trinnov's magical remapping lifts the center up to the middle of the screen. While VOG can be created via Ltm and Rtm.

This Altitude just keep on impressing me. Never stops
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post #7996 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
How good is Optimizer?
These are not my normal settings. My Number of IIR filters is around 20 and Max Frequency is 150...
I just checked mine. For whatever reason, my own max # is 23. The Built-in preset in rc9 has the max at "automatic". My min freq was 15hz & max same as yours - 150. IIRC (been quite some time) I think Jon recommended 15hz since my Velodyne DD has a rolloff subsonic filter @ 15hz and the SB16 naturally starts to rolloff around 15. Didn't we see LFE room response down to 10 when you were here? I wonder if it's worthwhile to set mine lower, meaning more CPU load to do the computations...

Trying to understand how the changes were supposed to "help" FreqResp w/o the PEQ - did Jon give you his reasoning behind those changes for the experiment?

Steve

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post #7997 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I just checked mine. For whatever reason, my own max # is 23. The Built-in preset in rc9 has the max at "automatic". My min freq was 15hz & max same as yours - 150. IIRC (been quite some time) I think Jon recommended 15hz since my Velodyne DD has a rolloff subsonic filter @ 15hz and the SB16 naturally starts to rolloff around 15. Didn't we see LFE room response down to 10 when you were here? I wonder if it's worthwhile to set mine lower, meaning more CPU load to do the computations...

Trying to understand how the changes were supposed to "help" FreqResp w/o the PEQ - did Jon give you his reasoning behind those changes for the experiment?
My conversation on this subject began when the last system I calibrated had the mid room position between two armrests. So no one sat there. I then began to wonder why I would PEQ that position. Which prompted prompted a question to Jon on what happens at the first measurement point vs any others (excluding determining exact speaker location and having all of the data to recalculate for re-mapping). Which then prompted the discussion on the necessity of the use of PEQs.

In your case, I would not lower it to 10Hz given the rolloff of your subs, But you can play around with the number of IIR filters and, using OmniMic, see what kind of results you end up with.

Jon's reasoning was based upon the ability to use bunches of IIR filters if necessary. So that was what my experiment was all about.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
In my experience; PEQ is still gold for all channels; especially below 200Hz. I just did a calibration without any PEQ; then a new one with. Big difference, but I usually go to extensive work with PEQ (20-50 filters for each channel below 200Hz).

Edit:
So PEQ for all channels will help (if done correctly), but PEQ for sub's are in my opinion required.
In my room, PEQs on most channels really buys me little, but PEQs on the sub is mandatory. If you look at my uncorrected left channel, you can see my room treatment provides reasonably good response. That has not been the case in all of the other rooms I have measured.

All of that said, my OCDness forces me to PEQ some, just because I can !!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Another thing, if you struggle to decide on VOG vs Ctf. If you have the center channel located right below the screen; Trinnov's magical remapping lifts the center up to the middle of the screen. While VOG can be created via Ltm and Rtm.

This Altitude just keep on impressing me. Never stops
I am in the process of setting up a .12 system, including front center ceiling height and VOG. Are you saying that the remapping in the Trinnov would obviate adding the front ceiling height and VOG by the remapping feature?

Thanks

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post #8000 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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After much debate, I have decided to stick with the Alt16 vs changing my order to a Alt32. I am 100% certain I am not going to add any more channels for the foreseeable future over my current 7.4.4. I have a hybrid game room/movie room so more speakers is not an option really. If I do get bored, I can go back to using my MiniDSP 2x4 balanced to free up channels on the 16. Speaking of which, what is the preferred method for subs? Using a MiniDSP and handing the summed subs to the Trinnov on one channel or using the Trinnov directly? What are the pros/cons of each?
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post #8001 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
After much debate, I have decided to stick with the Alt16 vs changing my order to a Alt32. I am 100% certain I am not going to add any more channels for the foreseeable future over my current 7.4.4. I have a hybrid game room/movie room so more speakers is not an option really. If I do get bored, I can go back to using my MiniDSP 2x4 balanced to free up channels on the 16. Speaking of which, what is the preferred method for subs? Using a MiniDSP and handing the summed subs to the Trinnov on one channel or using the Trinnov directly? What are the pros/cons of each?
Are those 4 subs all different differences from the MLP? If so, you can potentially eat up 4 Channels on the Trinnov. If there are two sets of two, then that only takes two channels. Are all of your subs the same (brand and model)?

If you have the channels available, I would pass on an external box initially to see what kind of results you get. If you can't get what you need, then go external. The calibration I just did (3 subs, two different distances) provided great results using two channels of the A16.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
After much debate, I have decided to stick with the Alt16 vs changing my order to a Alt32. I am 100% certain I am not going to add any more channels for the foreseeable future over my current 7.4.4. I have a hybrid game room/movie room so more speakers is not an option really. If I do get bored, I can go back to using my MiniDSP 2x4 balanced to free up channels on the 16. Speaking of which, what is the preferred method for subs? Using a MiniDSP and handing the summed subs to the Trinnov on one channel or using the Trinnov directly? What are the pros/cons of each?




I use a minidsp and calibrate as single sub only using one output on the A16! You are in for a real treat. I’m totally sold on the Kool Aid after a month or so of use!



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post #8003 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Are those 4 subs all different differences from the MLP? If so, you can potentially eat up 4 Channels on the Trinnov. If there are two sets of two, then that only takes two channels. Are all of your subs the same (brand and model)?

If you have the channels available, I would pass on an external box initially to see what kind of results you get. If you can't get what you need, then go external. The calibration I just did (3 subs, two different distances) provided great results using two channels of the A16.
Unfortunately, I don't have four matching subs. All are sealed and they are paired as twins but they are not all the same. I have two 24" Deep Sea Sound subs that are equidistant to the MLP in the front of the room. In the rear of the room, I have two dual 18" DIY subs that have Stereo Integrity drivers that are each driven by a Crown XLS 2502 in bridged mode. The rear subs are also equidistant to the MLP. I could run a splitter on the front set and rear set to save inputs, but as of right now I have them on dedicated channels on the MiniDSP.

The dual cabinets are not capable of running neck and neck with the 24's but they are still very capable. They are more than capable enough for my room and listening levels, especially combined with the 24s in the room. Right now, I run them unlimited. but a high pass filter of 18 to 20hz is probably in order since the 24's dig deep into the teens with ease by themselves and the 18's probably wont keep up for long down low below 20hz. With my current system, I will have available channels on the Trinnov for each sub. Currently , my system consists of JBL M2 for L/C/R, JBL 708 for surrounds, and JBL 705 for the ceiling.
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post #8004 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:05 PM
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I have them on dedicated channels on the MiniDSP.

Others are going to disagree but I would continue to employ the minidsp and EQ them as a single channel on the Altitude.



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post #8005 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:07 PM
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Unfortunately, I don't have four matching subs. All are sealed and they are paired as twins but they are not all the same. I have two 24" Deep Sea Sound subs that are equidistant to the MLP in the front of the room. In the rear of the room, I have two dual 18" DIY subs that have Stereo Integrity drivers that are each driven by a Crown XLS 2502 in bridged mode. The rear subs are also equidistant to the MLP. I could run a splitter on the front set and rear set to save inputs, but as of right now I have them on dedicated channels on the MiniDSP.

The dual cabinets are not capable of running neck and neck with the 24's but they are still very capable. They are more than capable enough for my room and listening levels, especially combined with the 24s in the room. Right now, I run them unlimited. but a high pass filter of 18 to 20hz is probably in order since the 24's dig deep into the teens with ease by themselves and the 18's probably wont keep up for long down low below 20hz. With my current system, I will have available channels on the Trinnov for each sub. Currently , my system consists of JBL M2 for L/C/R, JBL 708 for surrounds, and JBL 705 for the ceiling.
Well as long as you have the miniDSP, keep it. My recommendation was to save you some money! The miniDSP is very flexible and can allow you to do what ever is necessary to dial in those subs.

In my room, I only use my miniDSP for trims and delays. Al PEQs are done in the Trinnov.
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post #8006 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Unfortunately, I don't have four matching subs. All are sealed and they are paired as twins but they are not all the same. I have two 24" Deep Sea Sound subs that are equidistant to the MLP in the front of the room. In the rear of the room, I have two dual 18" DIY subs that have Stereo Integrity drivers that are each driven by Crown XLS 2502 in bridged mode. The rear subs are also equidistant to the MLP. I could run a splitter on the front set and rear set to save inputs, but as of right now I have them on dedicated channels on the MiniDSP.

The dual cabinets are not capable of running neck and neck with the 24's but they are still very capable. They are more than capable enough for my room and listening levels. Right now, I run them unlimited. but a high pass filter of 18 to 20hz is probably in order since the 24's dig deep into the teens with ease by themselves and the 18's probably wont keep up for long down low below 20hz. With my current system, I will have available channels on the Trinnov for each sub. Currently , my system consists of JBL M2 for L/C/R, JBL 708 for surrounds, and JBL 705 for the ceiling.

Fantastic gear! My only thought to maybe combining each pair and maybe sending one like pair to one output on the A16 and the other like pair to another would be in the future it would leave you open outputs. Sounds like the like pairs would be fairly easy to calibrate as single subs on the mini prior to the A16 seeing them? I’m running 9.2.6 but my setup/room really doesn’t call for more speakers so even though the A16 is maxed on outputs I’m all good.

I’d be also curious to others thoughts on how best to manage you subs. Admittedly a bit above my expertise on the Trinnov currently.


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post #8007 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:22 PM
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Fantastic gear!
Thanks, its been a progressive upgrade. I had JBL 4722s with the upgraded compression driver previously but decided to scratch the M2 itch since I kept reading all the rave reviews - same with the Trinnov. These darn itches are getting expensive though. My primary reason for the Trinnov was being DSP free and the room correction, not any desire for more channels.. My room is horrible. It is above a 3 car garage with 4 foot side walls that slant up (roof line) to a ceiling that is 8ft wide (flat) part. Think bonus room above garage. The room is plenty big @20x30 but the angled ceilings really eats up space and severely limited my screen size but I was still able to get a 127" 16:9 in the room but it was close due to the height of the screen and that damn angled roof line. I have treatments, but I am hoping the Trinnov will throw some secret sauce in an effort to tame this room.
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post #8008 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:38 PM
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That is the direction I was leaning as well but that was because it was already set up and wired Lazy bird doesn't get the worm but he doesn't have to change things. What is your reasoning?

How/why did you do it that way? Did you PEQ the summed channel on the Trinnov vs PEQ for each channel on the MiniDSP? Or something different?
Unless the Trinnov does and SFM style bass calibration, I would strongly recommend Using the miniDSP and MSO to dial the subs in and reduce your seat-to-seat variabilty then run the Trinnov global calibration over top of it.
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post #8009 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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Unless the Trinnov does and SFM style bass calibration, I would strongly recommend Using the miniDSP and MSO to dial the subs in and reduce your seat-to-seat variabilty then run the Trinnov global calibration over top of it.
If you have the spare channels and don't plan any upgrades, you can do the same thing in the Altitude using the Active Crossovers and available outputs to define the individual channels, with MSO-style level and delay entered in after a run. From that point you can either do PEQ for each n-way sub individually using the PEQ menu, or globally across all subs at one time.

However, with a MiniDSP already wired and in the mix, I'd go with the MiniDSP. I use my Altitude 32/24 for the individual sub management before EQ'ing (PEQ+Optimizer) as one, but sooner or later I'll probably scratch the extra channel itch and offload the individual subs to a Xlica in all likelihood.

It's been awhile since I looked at MiniDSP, but from what I vaguely remember back when, it was limited as to how much delay (I want to say a limit of 7.5 ms) you can have, as well as the number of PEQ filters (six) compared to what you can do with the Altitude using MSO techniques with the individual subs or for the summated response for PEQ. There's also the issue of whether you want to delve into the details of output voltage, especially if you're running an unbalanced MiniDSP, and/or deal with Phoenix connectors on the balanced. But personally I wouldn't break what's not broken if it's up and running, and there are better ways to use the output channels available if you have them.

There's other reasons to have an external DSP like a Xilica or Q-Sys in the mix, but that's more Adam's territory. For Molon, he ought be fine with the MiniDSP for his purposes. One less detail before getting the Altitude up and running when you get it.
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post #8010 of 9122 Old 07-16-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
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Unless the Trinnov does and SFM style bass calibration, I would strongly recommend Using the miniDSP and MSO to dial the subs in and reduce your seat-to-seat variabilty then run the Trinnov global calibration over top of it.
I started reading the MSO instructions about a year ago but I went Charlie Brown "...wah...wah...wah..wah" after about 10 minutes. Obviously, I am going to have to go back and read, read some more, and then implement.

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