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post #8071 of 9123 Old 07-20-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If I recall correctly, he was in Dolby's room or one of the major studio's demo room. I would assume they were probably using a Trinnov. Maybe Dr Toole will drop in an comment.
He leaves his comment at “interesting to contemplate” about less speakers producing higher sound quality. That’s hardly a conclusive opinion being offered as a general recommendation.

Also, his full quote suggests that the number of speakers may be goal-specific, e.g. reproducing a credible concert hall illusion vs. special effects. And he notes the flaws of phantom imaging between pairs of less than optimally placed speakers. It could be argued that having speakers to stabilize the sound imagery (e.g. wides between mains and surrounds) can stabilize the resulting effect by providing actual sound there, when used properly.

You also have to consider the mix; think R.E.M’s Automatic for the People in Atmos. Higher channel count (three vs. five screen speakers, for example) teases out instrument detail, such as acoustic guitars and bass being more cleanly separated from percussion and lead vocals. It’s a nice to have effect if you can get it. But I’d put specific acoustics criteria such as envelopment and dynamic range ahead of it.

The tradeoffs on phantom imaging are worth noting, though. It’s why 3D remapping works best for a single MLP to optimize or at most a single row of seats. But proper acoustic design is far more important than speaker count, even if more speakers may produce a more complex sound field at times.

Full post is here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post58288150

I have to start reading that thread again....it had gotten way off topic so I unsub’d a few months back. Looks like Dr. Toole is actively participating for the past few weeks.
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post #8072 of 9123 Old 07-20-2019, 12:44 PM
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From several Scott Wilkinson interviews, articles, etc, Grimani always struck me as being more into the acoustics and room design arena than the hardware. He wouldn't be alone, aka a local dealer we all know & love
The local dealer to whom you refer is clearly into room design. Acoustics? Not so much!
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post #8073 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
DTS:X for the home will always be locked to 16 audio streams... so they can do 7.1 plus 9 dynamic objects, or 7.1.4+ 5 objects or ????
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Pro is a strictly post processing solution to go past 7.1.4.

The Lb, Cb and Rb locations cannot be post processed, being outside (below) the 7.1.4 boundaries. That means that in the re-recording process at least 1 (and 2 for stereo effect) out of the 5 remaining objects must be used for those positions in order to be able to produce sounds in the lowest layer.

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post #8074 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 06:07 AM
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Another follow on article in Widescreen Review by Jon Herron of Trinnov. All about speaker count and placement for 3D audio. While his article is spot on technically, it ignores the reality of our current situation. (I have no doubt Jon is acutely aware of our current reality). That is, so few films take advantage of more than 7.x.4 so all of those speakers that we might like to install to improve the sound field, will go unused. How many of you with high speaker count rooms are using "matrixing" to at least get some sound out of all of those extra speakers?

I do highly recommend the article, however.
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post #8075 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 06:33 AM
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After an unofficial discussion with someone that has actually tried the DTS:X Pro, it supports position of audio objects in absolutely all speakers supported by DTS:X Pro. But also for DTS:X some releases don't use objects that extensive, but for what I've heard - the DTS:X titles always contain objects. How many and how frequently they are used vary based on title.

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post #8076 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 07:01 AM
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After an unofficial discussion with someone that has actually tried the DTS:X Pro, it supports position of audio objects in absolutely all speakers supported by DTS:X Pro.
Check, and that makes sense.

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post #8077 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 08:15 AM
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Currently I have my Altitude32 stacked on Amplitude8M which again is stacked on Amplitude8. I noticed that the Amplitude8M gets much hotter than the Amplitude8. So I'm looking into a stand or a rack which makes it possible for me to stack them above each other. I put some rubber spacers between the Ampltiude8M and Altitude32 - it seems to help.

Any of you good people have some recommendations here ? Plan for the future is to add an additional Amplitude8M.
Recommendation from Trinnov is to have 1U spacing between the units.

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post #8078 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If I recall correctly, he was in Dolby's room or one of the major studio's demo room. I would assume they were probably using a Trinnov. Maybe Dr Toole will drop in an comment.
I was at Genelec in March and they got an Alt32 for testing.
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post #8079 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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The formal release including this feature will come very soon. I had a beta copy and it had many issues so I went to one that was solid. This will be REALLY helpful for those who do calibrations other than just their own as you can put the target files on a usb stick and load it in the next unit.
Over three weeks have passed and the "very soon" that I have heard since January is just getting frustrating now. Is there any place I can look for real information on the next release?

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post #8080 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 10:18 AM
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Over three weeks have passed and the "very soon" that I have heard since January is just getting frustrating now. Is there any place I can look for real information on the next release?
Shows you how "in" I am. Ask your dealer.
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post #8081 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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After an unofficial discussion with someone that has actually tried the DTS:X Pro, it supports position of audio objects in absolutely all speakers supported by DTS:X Pro. But also for DTS:X some releases don't use objects that extensive, but for what I've heard - the DTS:X titles always contain objects. How many and how frequently they are used vary based on title.

DTS:X uses 16 streams.

They are all technically objects. When you render out into a fixed layout, ie 7.1.4, those 11 streams are referred to “render exceptions.”

I am sure the demos DTS has are fantastic, as almost all their non filmed entertainment (“movie”) demos are surely all made with up to 16 dynamic objects.

It is my understanding that more than 99% of all releases to date contain zero dynamic objects.

That will not change with the release of Pro.

In production it is too difficult to have to suddenly manage which one of the hundreds of sounds can then be outside of those 11 streams at a given time... while Atmos certainly has its limitations, you aren’t bound by having to manually manage the object count when mixing.
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post #8082 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Wow, a lot of Marantz in those lists. I found this post interesting from the thread "How to Choose a Loudspeaker - What the Sceince Shows". Is it plausible that adding too many speakers is diminishing the overall presentation? What is that number? Thoughts?

A few years ago I spent a few mornings over at the AMC here in Burbank where MDA (now DTS:X) retrofitted theater 8 with 54 speakers to demo MDA.... I think the theater holds around 285 people... it’s a decent sized room.

One of the benefits of the “format” is that it renders in rear time to any speaker layout in the room. They had presets for different layouts, from all 54 discrete speakers down to 5.1 with arrayed surrounds... they also had layouts that matched what an Atmos configured room would sound like...

It was a very cool experience.

It wasn’t a scientific experiment by any means, but they did a bunch of demos where they would start reducing the number of speakers down and ask attendees when they noticed a difference... if was only once they got below turning off 1/2 of the speakers do anyone start to easily tell the difference....

Just an interesting anecdote IMO.

Sorry for the blurry picture.... the surrounds vs heights on the side walls were a bit farther apart than it looks IIRC.



https://celluloidjunkie.com/2014/03/...12-march-2014/

“To date, the MDA Cinema Proponents Group has held two demonstrations of its proposed format for working group members and other industry professionals at the AMC 16-theatre complex in Burbank. Theatre 8 has been outfitted by QSC Audio Products with a total of 54 behind-the-screen, surround and ceiling loudspeakers, plus subwoofers to create an audio test bed for replaying various surround-sound configurations. All signal processing, including EQ, time alignment and crossovers, is handled by a QSC Q-Sys Core 500i processor; replay is from a Doremi cinema server. Playback material for the special demonstrations comprised a short video produced by DTS, entitled The Escape, accompanied by replay of a single MDA object-based soundtrack that was rendered in real-time through the Q-Sys processor to produce outputs appropriate to targeted loudspeaker channels.”


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post #8083 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 11:14 AM
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In production it is too difficult to have to suddenly manage which one of the hundreds of sounds can then be outside of those 11 streams at a given time....
Why would you need to place any sound outside the 7.x.4 streams (being R,C,L, Lss, Rss, Rrs, Lrs, Rfh, Lfh, Rrh, Lrh), if not to put them at the bottom layer which is unique to DTS:X?

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post #8084 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 11:35 AM
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Why would you need to place any sound outside the 7.x.4 streams (being R,C,L, Lss, Rss, Rrs, Lrs, Rfh, Lfh, Rrh, Lrh), if not to put them at the bottom layer which is unique to DTS:X?

How about to take advantage of ANY speakers outside a 7.1.4 layout (like wides) without having to rely to matrix decoding to do so . Even without bottom speakers there are still 17 possible rendering positions in the codec.

I’ve yet to be in a production studio that has bottom speakers in their setups.

Not sure I understand your question...


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post #8085 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
How about to take advantage of ANY speakers outside a 7.1.4 layout (like wides) without having to rely to matrix decoding to do so . Even without bottom speakers there are still 17 possible rendering positions in the codec.

I’ve yet to be in a production studio that has bottom speakers in their setups.

Not sure I understand your question...
Well, what I mean is that if you could/would rely on clean center extraction by the DTS:X post processing engine during playback, those width speaker would get the exact same content that you put on that location during re-recording, no?

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post #8086 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
How about to take advantage of ANY speakers outside a 7.1.4 layout (like wides) without having to rely to matrix decoding to do so . Even without bottom speakers there are still 17 possible rendering positions in the codec.

I’ve yet to be in a production studio that has bottom speakers in their setups.

Not sure I understand your question...


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This is not a problem; DTS:X Pro will according to what I've heard - use all speakers available for the format for audio objects - like Atmos. If the mix does not contain objects; it will be 7.1.4 like the Disney Atmos titles.

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post #8087 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 12:20 PM
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This is not a problem; DTS:X Pro will according to what I've heard - use all speakers available for the format for audio objects - like Atmos. If the mix does not contain objects; it will be 7.1.4 like the Disney Atmos titles.

I never said it wouldn’t.

What I did say was that I doubt you will see any mixes with more than 7.1.4 print outs.
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post #8088 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 12:39 PM
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Well, what I mean is that if you could/would rely on clean center extraction by the DTS:X post processing engine during playback, those width speaker would get the exact same content that you put on that location during re-recording, no?

Of course.

You might get unintended bleed from both adjoining channels on a case by case, moment by moment basis... to what extent it is audible, distracting or detrimental to the original intent is hard to quantify.

In practice I think the benefit will far outweigh any such artifacts.

I think it’s a good solution for the constraints presented by optical media and having a backwards compatible codec.
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post #8089 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 01:08 PM
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What I did say was that I doubt you will see any mixes with more than 7.1.4 print outs.
So does that translate to the situation where for those of us who have more than a 7.x.4 system will only be able to make use of the "excess" speakers via "up-mixing". If so, why did DTS even bother to create DTS:X Pro?
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So does that translate to the situation where for those of us who have more than a 7.x.4 system will only be able to make use of the "excess" speakers via "up-mixing". If so, why did DTS even bother to create DTS:X Pro?
Why would "up-mixing" without audible artifacts not be attractive to those with more than a 7.x.4 system?

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post #8091 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 03:44 PM
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So does that translate to the situation where for those of us who have more than a 7.x.4 system will only be able to make use of the "excess" speakers via "up-mixing". If so, why did DTS even bother to create DTS:X Pro?
They did not; I'm 100% sure all DTS:X available channels connected will be used for audio objects. But we will soon be able to verify this ourself I'm sure.

Regarding Atmos, most movies I have seen on my system utilize all atmos speakers in the ceiling. It is more and more common to use the front wides. We will most likely have some titles with DTS:X with very limited use of audio objects as well. But I have heard rumors that all DTS:X titles got audio objects. Not sure if this is correct, but looking forward to check it out.

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Why would "up-mixing" without audible artifacts not be attractive to those with more than a 7.x.4 system?
It is VERY attractive to me. Given FilmMixers's comments, it appears the DTS releases we get won't have more than 7.x.4 channels, which implies the studios are not choosing to take advantage of it. Hence my comment of "why bother".
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post #8093 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 04:58 PM
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They did not; I'm 100% sure all DTS:X available channels connected will be used for audio objects.
Not according to my understanding of FilmMixer's comments.

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Regarding Atmos, most movies I have seen on my system utilize all atmos speakers in the ceiling. It is more and more common to use the front wides. We will most likely have some titles with DTS:X with very limited use of audio objects as well. But I have heard rumors that all DTS:X titles got audio objects. Not sure if this is correct, but looking forward to check it out.
You must be watching completely different movies than I am. With the exception of a very, very few, my wides are silent. I do, however, see a bit more use of center heights.
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post #8094 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 05:26 PM
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Not according to my understanding of FilmMixer's comments.



You must be watching completely different movies than I am. With the exception of a very, very few, my wides are silent. I do, however, see a bit more use of center heights.

All available speakers will be accessible via Pro when using objects....

I still don’t think you’ll see anything more that 7.1.4 on discs.... hence no dynamic objects.

Up to this point we have not seen this occur.

Do I think studios will change how they’re doing things?

Given how limited the market will be for Pro I doubt it.... and it’s kind of it’s own worst self promoter (now you don’t have to do anything differently to get sound to come out of more than 11 channels even with a 7.1.4 track...)

The professional community has (mistakenly IMO) clearly defined home Atmos as 7.1.4 or 9.1.6... facilities building stages and marketing them certainly embrace that....

I think the next area that is being focused on (by both companies) is virtualization for head phones, soundboard and stereo playback systems.... and since Hollywood sees the end of optical media in sight, I would argue it’s the smart thing to do.
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post #8095 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 05:56 PM
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Do I think studios will change how they’re doing things?

Given how limited the market will be for Pro I doubt it.... and it’s kind of it’s own worst self promoter (now you don’t have to do anything differently to get sound to come out of more than 11 channels even with a 7.1.4 track...)
My point exactly and the same applies to studios creating more Atmos movies utilizing more channels. What is their incentive?

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The professional community has (mistakenly IMO) clearly defined home Atmos as 7.1.4 or 9.1.6... facilities building stages and marketing them certainly embrace that....
That certainly shows in the discs they create

Quote:
I think the next area that is being focused on (by both companies) is virtualization for head phones, soundboard and stereo playback systems.... and since Hollywood sees the end of optical media in sight, I would argue it’s the smart thing to do.
All of which confirm my belief that source material (DTS or Dolby) that takes full advantage of high speaker counts systems will, at best, be very, very limited.
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post #8096 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
My point exactly and the same applies to studios creating more Atmos movies utilizing more channels. What is their incentive?



That certainly shows in the discs they create


All of which confirm my belief that source material (DTS or Dolby) that takes full advantage of high speaker counts systems will, at best, be very, very limited.

Remember however that the output speaker configuration isn’t a factor when mixing.... studios don’t concern them selves with “utilizing more channels...”. The creative sound team mixes in the venue they have.... they all know that some rooms will have more, some less.. when I said that studios (recording not content creators) have veered towards creating 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 mixing stages they certainly understand that while that will comprise a vast majority of playback systems, the format will scale to more if available.

What Disney has decided to do with their content (print out 7.1.4) takes more time and effort than the normal way of delivering continent to make Atmos bitstreams..... it’s decidedly different than working in DTS:X (where you have to decide what output to render to when exporting an X mix...)

And in doing research for my first streaming project, I had many conversations with Dolby and other experts about any benefit to be had in creating a 7.1.4 channel master and then encoding it into Atmos... with DD+ it buys you nothing. What does buy you more is increased bit rates, which both Netflix and Amazon have both embraced.

If mixers choose not to place objects in the wides it should have nothing to do with them thinking a user won’t have wides.... it’s just their style. For better or worse. That’s just my .02

I’ll be curious to hear your impression of our work when Carnival Row starts streaming on Amazon on 8/30. We were fairly aggressive with our mix in both very obvious and subtle ways in terms of immersion.. as I mentioned earlier I’d love some meter screenshots from the Trinnov to see how the mix plays back once streamed.

It was mixed in a 7.1.4 room setup with the surrounds set as point source rather than arrays.
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post #8097 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 07:45 PM
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So does that translate to the situation where for those of us who have more than a 7.x.4 system will only be able to make use of the "excess" speakers via "up-mixing". If so, why did DTS even bother to create DTS:X Pro?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious , but the answer is contained in your question - without DTS:X Pro, those speakers would remain silent.
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post #8098 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Maybe I'm missing something obvious , but the answer is contained in your question - without DTS:X Pro, those speakers would remain silent.
Exactly, DTS:X Pro can do what nor DTS:X nor Atmos can: Light-up all speakers in a high channel count system when playing a "7.1.4 hard-coded" track. I don't really understand the lack of sheer enthousiasm on this Altitude thread.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #8099 of 9123 Old 07-21-2019, 11:36 PM
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Exactly, DTS:X Pro can do what nor DTS:X nor Atmos can: Light-up all speakers in a high channel count system when playing a "7.1.4 hard-coded" track.

And again it bears repeating.

Almost all (99%+) of DTS:X titles are hard coded.

A very small number of Atmos titles are...

So the real world difference, I expect, is that with X:Pro you will certainly be expanding the spaciousness of the inside of the listening bubble without creating any extra precision.... matrix decoding on the overheads will require extracting almost all front to back panning from two source channels..... for instance if one were to put an object on the ceiling exclusively and pan it front to back... with a 7.1.4 print out part of that sound will move down into the base level speakers.... that’s the way the down mixer works when rendering out to 7.1.4.... so by virtue of the limitations of the codec you are “compromising” the original intent of the mix when listening on systems which were larger than the payload (ie a mixing room with greater than 7.1.4..). Matrix deciders certainly have evolved greatly in steering intelligence.... but it’s not totally free from steering artifacts...

Again... will it be noticeable? I doubt it...

With Atmos the original intent of any given overhead pan should be precisely and accurately reproduced with few artifacts or steering... that’s of course dependent on the complexity of the track at any given single point in time and how the spatial coding process handles it.... those type of “steering” artifacts would be because of how Dolby has engineered the codec from the start taking into account the need for backwards compatibility, optical disc constraints and needing to provide a lossy solution for streaming, etc.

I think where Dolby made an error was not building in an array flag for the surround channels of the bed layer for products like the Trinnov.... but I think that’s less of an unforced error than the fact that DTS:X didn’t deliver in what was originally sold to consumers in their marketing and now then had to conceive a secondary “update” to the codec to expand outside of the codecs current 11 channel limitations...


And as we nit pick this subject, in the end I find it wonderful that we now have access, as consumers, of immersive content..... a good mix is a good mix, regardless of channel count.

If we’re sitting in our rooms listening to films and are distracted by the output meters of the processor than we’re missing the point of this hobby... which is to enjoy filmed and interactive content.

I have a saying... if I’m listening to how a film sounds while watching it, the director hasn’t done their job well enough to keep me engaged in the story their trying to tell.

Again. All this is just my .02.
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post #8100 of 9123 Old 07-22-2019, 12:49 AM
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I got info directly from Trinnov regarding DTS:X Pro; which I were allowed to share (most likely they are reading all the ranting on this thread?)

Quote:
Apparently most of the mixes are done with hardcoded 7.1.4 and Neural:X in its pro version will upmix that very well to the layout. However not all the mix are prebaked with beds, some films are using objects (for instance Dreamgirls or IpMan 3), in this case the bed channels are upmixed through the new Neural:X and the objets are correctly rendered discretely on all available (DTS) channels
Mystery solved

Edit:
So if my interpretation is correct; if you have a "bed" in ceiling for the 4 channels. This bed will be upmixed with Neural:X Pro to all ceiling speakers; same with bed in front or back. On top of this; the objects will be rendered using all available DTS:X channels. So this is the best of both worlds. I knew we would not get something half-done from Trinnov

Edit2:
This will result in DTS:X Pro being superior to the current Atmos.

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