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post #8101 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 01:43 AM
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Very interesting discussion on DTS:X Pro, and thanks to @FilmMixer for sharing your insights, its great to hear details from the other (creative) side of the fence.

I'm really looking forward trying DTS:X Pro, and seeing even more channels lighting up when upmixing, when compared to what DSU currently does. However my concern is that doesn't help us in any way with native Atmos tracks, which form the vast majority of UHD disc releases, and therefore a large chunk of my current and future viewing - unless Neural:X Pro can be layered on-top of native Atmos (which I doubt will be the case).

So even with the release of DTS:X Pro, we are still left with a high number of Atmos tracks that don't utilise all speakers, and a bed layer that won't render to all surround channels in higher channel count systems.

That then leaves us with the decision of whether to downmix the native Atmos track to 7.1 LPCM and upmix with DTS:X Pro (which goes against the grain for me personally - I don't want to lose those objects), or simply accept lower channel usage on quite a large number of Atmos mixes.

The one hope is that the emergence of DTS:X Pro will be a boot to Dolby's collective ass, and they'll release a revised version of DSU that will utilise all 24.1.10 channels, and can similarly be applied to native Atmos tracks. I'm not holding my breath on that last part though.

Better yet would be if Trinnov applied their considerable audio processing prowess to create their own upmixer (think Lexicon Quantum Logic), that could be used on any incoming codec, and applied to any allowable (format agnostic) speaker position available within the Altitude. Maybe that's a dream too far?
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post #8102 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
This will result in DTS:X Pro being superior to the current Atmos.
At least for high channel count systems, quite possibly. Let us all wait till Trinnov rolls it out, and listen ...

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post #8103 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Very interesting discussion on DTS:X Pro, and thanks to @FilmMixer for sharing your insights, its great to hear details from the other (creative) side of the fence.

I'm really looking forward trying DTS:X Pro, and seeing even more channels lighting up when upmixing, when compared to what DSU currently does. However my concern is that doesn't help us in any way with native Atmos tracks, which form the vast majority of UHD disc releases, and therefore a large chunk of my current and future viewing - unless Neural:X Pro can be layered on-top of native Atmos (which I doubt will be the case).

So even with the release of DTS:X Pro, we are still left with a high number of Atmos tracks that don't utilise all speakers, and a bed layer that won't render to all surround channels in higher channel count systems.

That then leaves us with the decision of whether to downmix the native Atmos track to 7.1 LPCM and upmix with DTS:X Pro (which goes against the grain for me personally - I don't want to lose those objects), or simply accept lower channel usage on quite a large number of Atmos mixes.

The one hope is that the emergence of DTS:X Pro will be a boot to Dolby's collective ass, and they'll release a revised version of DSU that will utilise all 24.1.10 channels, and can similarly be applied to native Atmos tracks. I'm not holding my breath on that last part though.

Better yet would be if Trinnov applied their considerable audio processing prowess to create their own upmixer (think Lexicon Quantum Logic), that could be used on any incoming codec, and applied to any allowable (format agnostic) speaker position available within the Altitude. Maybe that's a dream too far?
I believe that if DTS:X Pro is going to be the best sounding format on our high channel count systems, the best we can hope for is that the number of DTS:X home titles will catch up ...

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post #8104 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 04:12 AM
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I don't think the license from Dolby allow Trinnov to apply their own upmix on the Atmos. Else it would have been done a long time ago.

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post #8105 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I believe that if DTS:X Pro is going to be the best sounding format on our high channel count systems, the best we can hope for is that the number of DTS:X home titles will catch up ...
I have seen fairly many DTS:X titles (I have a collection of around 500 UHD blu-ray titles). So maybe I'm on the extreme side on media purchase as well?

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post #8106 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
At least for high channel count systems, quite possibly. Let us all wait till Trinnov rolls it out, and listen ...
I'm really looking forward to this release.

Reason we have not seen it yet is because it most likely is not on release quality yet. Don't think Trinnov is holding back on us just to be annoying (some seems to think so).

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post #8107 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have seen fairly many DTS:X titles (I have a collection of around 500 UHD blu-ray titles).
Yes, but as it stands Dolby Atmos currently dominates not only in Blu-Ray releases but also in the domain of streaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, iTunes, Vudu).
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post #8108 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Yes, but as it stands Dolby Atmos currently dominates not only in Blu-Ray releases but also in the domain of streaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, iTunes, Vudu).
That is correct, luckily all atmos titles i have tried on Netflix got the whole ceiling rows in use (for the atmos-compliant outputs of course).
I'm guessing someone in charge @ Netflix own an Altitude

Edit:
After DTS:X Pro; I'm guessing we will see dolby surround upmix of Atmos-beds as well very soon (for the the titles not using objects; and only hardcoded to 2 or 4 ceiling channels).
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post #8109 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I believe that if DTS:X Pro is going to be the best sounding format on our high channel count systems, the best we can hope for is that the number of DTS:X home titles will catch up ...
I can't see that happening. Dolby appear to have won this round, just as DTS won the blu-ray round with DTS-MA, and Dolby won the DVD round with DD.

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I don't think the license from Dolby allow Trinnov to apply their own upmix on the Atmos. Else it would have been done a long time ago.
I'm sure that's probably the case with Atmos - Dolby does appear very protective over it - but Trinnov don't have their own upmixer (at least one that has been shown publicly), else we would have it for all other legacy formats.
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post #8110 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 05:21 AM
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Interesting article in the most recent Widescreen Review. 5 or so high end home theaters that won CEDIA awards, all (I think) designed by Anthony Grimani, and none include a processor capable of supporting high count speakers. Why, I have no clue but check out the equipment lists on the attached. So going back to the previous discussions on why Hollywood should care about us, NONE of these homeowners care about anything more than 7.x.4. I suppose all of these theaters could have been built before Trinnov existed, but I think not.
I know, as I was one of the CEDIA awards judges this year, and also having been involved in award winning cinemas, but I need to verify what I am permitted to disclose before I say more. Given the awards submittal process and deadline though, there could be many reasons why high channel count systems are not well represented in this years awards.

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post #8111 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 05:55 AM
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Maybe I'm missing something obvious , but the answer is contained in your question - without DTS:X Pro, those speakers would remain silent.
It wasn't answered in my question when I posed it but it is now. I was (incorrectly) assuming that DTS:X Pro would encourage/facilitate DTS to release more movies utilizing high channel count. Reading Fillm Mixer's comments, that appears not to be the case, so the primary use will be up-mixing (and I'm not complaining).

And while DTS:X Pro could "encourage" Dolby to create an up mixer to make use of all of our speakers, my bet is that won't happen. As has been suggested, Dolby is the "800 Pound Gorilla" in this market, so the pressure for them to do anything is non existent.
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post #8112 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 06:04 AM
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It wasn't answered in my question when I posed it but it is now. I was (incorrectly) assuming that DTS:X Pro would encourage/facilitate DTS to release more movies utilizing high channel count. Reading Fillm Mixer's comments, that appears not to be the case, so the primary use will be up-mixing (and I'm not complaining).

And while DTS:X Pro could "encourage" Dolby to create an up mixer to make use of all of our speakers, my bet is that won't happen. As has been suggested, Dolby is the "800 Pound Gorilla" in this market, so the pressure for them to do anything is non existent.
When DTS:X Pro becomes available; they might feel the need to not be worse than their main competitor.

It is the chair-holders/owners expectation of a marketing leader not giving up their technical lead to the competition. Even though this is mostly for marketing; since most people don't even have ceiling speakers.

Edit:
Historically "800 Pound Gorilla"'s have crashed and vanished because they did not pay attention.

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post #8113 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 06:14 AM
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Exactly, DTS:X Pro can do what nor DTS:X nor Atmos can: Light-up all speakers in a high channel count system when playing a "7.1.4 hard-coded" track. I don't really understand the lack of sheer enthusiasm on this Altitude thread.

Cynicism? Maybe a little "I'll believe it when I see it"?

Some of us been burned too many times over decades by 1) audio/video formats & content that's abandoned or killed one to several yrs after the marketing hype (Sony is a big offender), 2) reluctance/delays with certain studios to embrace new formats (Fox with Blu-ray, Disney with home Atmos) 3) not utilizing the available channels (pre-Atmos: 5.1 vastly outnumbered 7.1) 4) under-utilization of mixing in 5.1 / 7.1 surround (titles with mostly music bleed & ambience instead of using directional surround for enhancing action), 5) mfg's rushing to release new hardware that's not fully equipped for the format (several yrs of 4K TV's with only HDMI 1.4) meaning it's obsolete out-of-the-box. Etc....

When Atmos first came out, many thought there'd be 100's of titles in Year 1, pre-4K. I correctly thought the opposite - lucky to see a dozen or so.

I am very happy that Atmos brought about much better & aggressive use of surround sound in movies. But I have to add one more to my "burn" list, the one we're discussing: 6) hard-printed 7.1.4 vs using objects.

With audio, to me it seems studios are overly cautious, stuck-in-a-rut with adopting new formats or processing or maybe just like to take the lowest common denominator approach. Either way, it results in they and their content under-utilizing hardware's capabilities, whatever performance level or point-in-time. Hardware is always way ahead, sometimes years ahead, of software-content for the home video market.

I still have a last-gen Pioneer laserdisc player and 250+ lasers, hardly watchable now on a 4K TV but hey I own the original, unaltered Star Wars trilogy on CAV discs; who can say that now? I went through 4 generations of LD players starting around 1980. LD was the premium home video format for ~20 yrs before DVD took over, what will be the case with UHD? It may last 5-10 yrs but we know the trend line isn't good.

I am very pleased to own a Trinnov, enjoy what it's capable of & am very glad they will give us DTS-X Pro and IMAX Enhanced.

But in general, I don't share a high opinion of studios & their choices. Sorry...
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post #8114 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 07:33 AM
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Cynicism? Maybe a little "I'll believe it when I see it"?

Some of us been burned too many times over decades by 1) audio/video formats & content that's abandoned or killed one to several yrs after the marketing hype (Sony is a big offender), 2) reluctance/delays with certain studios to embrace new formats (Fox with Blu-ray, Disney with home Atmos) 3) not utilizing the available channels (pre-Atmos: 5.1 vastly outnumbered 7.1) 4) under-utilization of mixing in 5.1 / 7.1 surround (titles with mostly music bleed & ambience instead of using directional surround for enhancing action), 5) mfg's rushing to release new hardware that's not fully equipped for the format (several yrs of 4K TV's with only HDMI 1.4) meaning it's obsolete out-of-the-box. Etc....

When Atmos first came out, many thought there'd be 100's of titles in Year 1, pre-4K. I correctly thought the opposite - lucky to see a dozen or so.

I am very happy that Atmos brought about much better & aggressive use of surround sound in movies. But I have to add one more to my "burn" list, the one we're discussing: 6) hard-printed 7.1.4 vs using objects.

With audio, to me it seems studios are overly cautious, stuck-in-a-rut with adopting new formats or processing or maybe just like to take the lowest common denominator approach. Either way, it results in they and their content under-utilizing hardware's capabilities, whatever performance level or point-in-time. Hardware is always way ahead, sometimes years ahead, of software-content for the home video market.

I still have a last-gen Pioneer laserdisc player and 250+ lasers, hardly watchable now on a 4K TV but hey I own the original, unaltered Star Wars trilogy on CAV discs; who can say that now? I went through 4 generations of LD players starting around 1980. LD was the premium home video format for ~20 yrs before DVD took over, what will be the case with UHD? It may last 5-10 yrs but we know the trend line isn't good.

I am very pleased to own a Trinnov, enjoy what it's capable of & am very glad they will give us DTS-X Pro and IMAX Enhanced.

But in general, I don't share a high opinion of studios & their choices. Sorry...
I am most certainly not second guessing my decision to support high channel count audio, nor Trinnov’s products.

What I get hung up on is the lack of progress driven, in my opinion, by the lack of vision by the studios. If a company like Amazon thought that way, they would still just be selling books! Or Apple, just computers! What I think the studios are missing, is the potential future impact of Amazon, Apple and other content creators.
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post #8115 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 08:53 AM
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Totally agree, this lack of vision will lead to the big studios giving away the complete movie/tv-shows industry to the streaming services. I think companies like Netflix are already showing this trend.

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...What I get hung up on is the lack of progress driven, in my opinion, by the lack of vision by the studios...

Bingo!

As I've said, you couldn't pry my Altitude out of my hands. The best purchase for the long-term I've made in this decades-long hobby. And to see & hear all those speakers light up is a delight and love that I could have both 9.1.6 & 7.1.8 layouts with a button click and 12 v trigger

If DTS or even Auro wants to give us higher speaker counts so they can "match" Dolby, bring it!

To studios that won't utilize capabilities that they've had for many years, don't see value (sales) in doing so or lack vision to change old habits, you deserve many of these:

I appreciate FilmMixer coming to the thread and sharing perspectives from his experience in the industry.

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I still have a last-gen Pioneer laserdisc player and 250+ lasers, hardly watchable now on a 4K TV but hey I own the original, unaltered Star Wars trilogy on CAV discs; who can say that now? I went through 4 generations of LD players starting around 1980. LD was the premium home video format for ~20 yrs before DVD took over, what will be the case with UHD? It may last 5-10 yrs but we know the trend line isn't good.
No LD player anymore. But I still have lots of LDs I just cleaned out of my back cabinets which are being redone for Mid-Atlantic component racks and disc storage with my theatre renovation/upgrade, and one of those LDs is the original, unaltered Star Wars trilogy on CAV discs. HA! Wonder what its worth these days?

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That is correct, luckily all atmos titles i have tried on Netflix got the whole ceiling rows in use (for the atmos-compliant outputs of course).

I'm guessing someone in charge @ Netflix own an Altitude



Edit:

After DTS:X Pro; I'm guessing we will see dolby surround upmix of Atmos-beds as well very soon (for the the titles not using objects; and only hardcoded to 2 or 4 ceiling channels).

Because I’m very sensitive about the subject.... Netflix nor any other studio has a say over the content of the mix (ie how much is in the overheads...)

If a studio were to dictate those types of decisions to the creatives (read directors) they would find themselves short of film makers wanting to work with them ...

It’s the mixers and the film makers.

On your second comment. I know why Disney has decided to do what they have on certain discs.

Dolby has made it very clear to me that this is a practice they strongly discourage.
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post #8119 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I can't see that happening. Dolby appear to have won this round, just as DTS won the blu-ray round with DTS-MA, and Dolby won the DVD round with DD.







I'm sure that's probably the case with Atmos - Dolby does appear very protective over it - but Trinnov don't have their own upmixer (at least one that has been shown publicly), else we would have it for all other legacy formats.

The Yamaha line up does allow for post processing of Atmos sound tracks...

I think the Trinnov is such a special and specialized piece of gear I would not see it out of the realm of possibility for Dolby to allow them to do so... at the very least they should encourage the ability to “array” the surrounds...

In the end Trinnov would have to weigh the outlay in resources to design such technologies against any potential sales lost if they didn’t do such a thing. While it might be annoying to some of the more educated consumers, I doubt there are many people who purchase these processors that really care ...

And by many people I mean those outside this thread who stay educated and passionate about their hobby.
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post #8120 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 11:56 AM
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I am looking forward to getting my system set up so I can test out every atmos movie I can think of for atmos. As of right now, I know that the UHD release of The Matrix takes excellent advantage of multi-channel audio, but I can't wait to discover others that make good use of wides, ceiling speakers, and rear wides.

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post #8121 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post

I am not at liberty.

I know I’m a tease.

As a side note I can say that immersive tools and technologies have made a real difference in the quality of mixes overall, even when played back as 5.1 or 7.1....

Whereas 7.1 was more of an exception it is now the norm. That’s made a big difference IMO... I know it’s completely changed how I mix.

Narrative film making still requires forward facing focus on a 2D flat image.... and for better or worse many film makers focus on that first and foremost, regardless of what tools they have available to them.
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post #8122 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by filmmixer View Post
...immersive tools and technologies have made a real difference in the quality of mixes overall, even when played back as 5.1 or 7.1....whereas 7.1 was more of an exception it is now the norm.
+100
As a surround sound junkie going all the way back to the 1970's quadraphonic years, it's been wonderful to see your profession progress, even slowly

Steve

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post #8123 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 12:51 PM
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Currently I have my Altitude32 stacked on Amplitude8M which again is stacked on Amplitude8. I noticed that the Amplitude8M gets much hotter than the Amplitude8. So I'm looking into a stand or a rack which makes it possible for me to stack them above each other. I put some rubber spacers between the Ampltiude8M and Altitude32 - it seems to help.

Any of you good people have some recommendations here ? Plan for the future is to add an additional Amplitude8M.
Recommendation from Trinnov is to have 1U spacing between the units.
Since I don't have all my equipment in a technical room; I needed something showing off my equipment in a nice way.
So landed on this crazy guy:
https://solidsteel.it/my-product/hf-...nd-audio-rack/

Right now they are all stacked on the floor on top of each other. Ventilation is not optimal this way.

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post #8124 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I have never seen anyone quote themselves before
Just mean the problem is solved; no need for input
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HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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post #8125 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 01:30 PM
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Has anyone started to compile a list of atmos movies that take full advantage of the trinnov? I am considering starting 1 if not.

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post #8126 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I got info directly from Trinnov regarding DTS:X Pro; which I were allowed to share (most likely they are reading all the ranting on this thread?)



Mystery solved

Edit:
So if my interpretation is correct; if you have a "bed" in ceiling for the 4 channels. This bed will be upmixed with Neural:X Pro to all ceiling speakers; same with bed in front or back. On top of this; the objects will be rendered using all available DTS:X channels. So this is the best of both worlds. I knew we would not get something half-done from Trinnov
I'm sure the AVSers here appreciate that Trinnov confirmed this via you publicly. I already had a fairly good idea that this was true from my own reading of the forum, interviews, and the like, but this would seem to be the common sense answer.

In effect DTS:X Pro is simply doing what DTS:X already is doing, just without a 11 channel limitation for the channels at which Neural:X style post-processing was available. And so few DTS:X films are using dynamic objects (Sdurani mentioned Well Go USA as the only studio releasing films that do so, maybe 20 out of about 120 DTS:X releases) that I think for most purposes, DTS:X Pro is simply just more of the same, in a literal sense. To the extent that you want whatever objects are assigned by Well Go USA mixers to their movies (not sure what those are in practice; maybe @FilmMixer can comment) because you can, you can have your cake and eat it too.

The only "revolutionary" thing is if you want to add more speakers to take advantage of the DTS:X Pro post-processing > 7.1.4 (as almost all DTS:X releases are prebaked to 7.1.4, counting four object/wavelengths dedicated to two fronts and two rears). So if having more speakers playing more of the time is your thing, it will "beat" Atmos.

However, I draw the line at downmixing Atmos to a 7.1 core sent as PCM just to use DTS:X Pro. At least for me, while I appreciate more spaciousness inside the listening bubble, as FilmMixer put it, I also like the sense of precision you get from more speakers reproducing object passthrough as defined by the mixer. And for me, for movies and selected music, I'd rather have the precision.

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post #8127 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
Has anyone started to compile a list of atmos movies that take full advantage of the trinnov? I am considering starting 1 if not.
Define "full use of the Trinnov". Do you mean using every one of the speakers in 24.x.10? All of the speakers in your configuration, all the time? All of your speakers some of the time? Does it have to be audible? The latter isn't trivial, as you can have movies where, say, top fronts or rears light up but it's only audible if you solo them and crank it near reference. Or action that whiplashes through wides or those Lc/Rc I have .

I had started to do so on the Atmos thread for some selected movies, and occasionally here, based on my own setup and Input meters. But it's fairly scattered. Ultimately I gave up because of time constraints, but also because it's somewhat of a fool's errand unless you want to buy every Atmos release and check.

The problem is this stuff can be subjective to each one of us. Take Audioguy (Chuck), who repeatedly has said that he didn't feel he got much improvement over 7.1.4 for his content (forgive me if I'm not accurately quoting you) and doesn't see much logic other than extra channel availability to go beyond that due to the perceived lack of content beyond that point. On the other extreme you have Berland or me. Personally, having anything > 7.1.4 to 7.1.6, 9.1.6 (in at least two flavors, not just wides), movies that go crazy using everything, movies that make more use of presence screen speakers, etc. at least some of the time justifies the setup of having as many speakers as you can support given room constraints.

Having said that, I set up my own 13.x.6 room before the CEDIA Designer incorporated Trinnov recommendations, the Trinnov white paper to dealers/CIs, and well before Jon Herron wrote the WSR articles, so I was free to experiment rather than follow a guideline. Today, I'd have started from that place as a best practice and probably been more conservative in room design toward the small acoustics best practices of HAA over speaker count, which might have meant more of a 7.1.6 or 9.1.4 room. Not sure if the results I would gotten would better, but certainly different. But then again, having a lab at times is its own fun .

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Last edited by sdrucker; 07-22-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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post #8128 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 02:19 PM
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I would like confirmation of the current functionality of the digital coax/SPDIF out on the Altitude 16.

I would like to use this output in lieu of XLR outs 1&2 to drive main L&R. This is to drive active speakers with a digital input (aka power DAC). This should not be a 2ch downmix of the 16ch output.

Everything I've read suggests that this is possible and currently operational. Is this correct? What limitations should I be aware of? Can XLR 1&2 outs be used simultaneously?
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post #8129 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 02:20 PM
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I would like confirmation of the current functionality of the digital coax/SPDIF out on the Altitude 16.

I would like to use this output in lieu of XLR outs 1&2 to drive main L&R. This is to drive active speakers with a digital input (aka power DAC). This should not be a 2ch downmix of the 16ch output.

Everything I've read suggests that this is possible and currently operational. Is this correct? What limitations should I be aware of? Can XLR 1&2 outs be used simultaneously?
Remind me, are you joining the band here?

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post #8130 of 9076 Old 07-22-2019, 02:50 PM
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It's hard to get the general public behind the technology when the advertisements say something like "supports up to 50 channels" but the reality even when you are in automobile priced processors is that very few actual movies can take advantage of anything beyond say 16 channels. I consider myself one of the more knowledgeable members of my ht/audio group and I was stunned to learn that you can't just add more speakers and magically have the processor efficiently use them. Imagine how the average user feels. No wonder they don't go beyond 5.1, lol. This is obviously not Trinnovs fault or the technology's fault. But it doesn't help develop interest in the general public when the marketing is so different from the reality.

Funnily enough, one of the most immersive and fun movie experiences I had was seeing Batman Dark Knight Rises in a local Imax theatre. The audio was fantastic - deep, powerful, well-defined bass that rattled the rib cage. Immersion and dynamics that were incredible. And all this by 5 giant JBL speakers plus subs! I assume there were only 3 speakers behind the screen but don't honestly know. But the 2 giant speakers in the back corners were not subtle looking, lol.

I've seen movies in atmos in the UltraAVX theatres and while I can appreciate the sound coming from the heights etc the overall presentation was bright, boomy, and seemed too loud. I realize it's an apples to oranges comparison because the setup is clearly different but as far as enjoyment goes, the IMAX non 3d audio sound had immersion, dynamics, power and bass and I certainly didn't feel that anything was missing.

Personally 7.x.4 is more than adequate for me in my home but I totally get why some of you want more speakers as it should in theory improve the level of immersion. I hope you get what you want with DTS Pro and whatever Dolby comes up with. It's only fair that what was originally promised/implied should come to fruition....

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