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post #8191 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
I understand. Is best to be sure on a purchase of this magnitude
Agreed. For my application, it didn't make fiscal sense. Not that this hobby every makes fiscal sense, but you know what I mean.
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post #8192 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Agreed. For my application, it didn't make fiscal sense. Not that this hobby every makes fiscal sense, but you know what I mean.
Just curious...what are you going with for a processor?

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post #8193 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:14 PM
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Just curious...what are you going with for a processor?

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post #8194 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Agreed. For my application, it didn't make fiscal sense. Not that this hobby every makes fiscal sense, but you know what I mean.
Agreed. My girlfriend refers to my hobby as a money pit. She doesn't get my fascination with home theater, but looking at my pocket book, I can't say she is necessarily incorrect.
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post #8195 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
Just curious...what are you going with for a processor?
Molon, I'm curious what you decide to go with too. You have very nice ancillary gear so it can certainly justify the purchase of a top rated unit. I would suggest you look at something like the NAD prepros with Dirac etc... I would have considered suggesting the Emotiva prepros but I've had recurrent headaches from mine (which is only now used in the family room). Still, they offer a lot of sound quality and value for the money. I assume you changed your mind after hearing about the limitations recently discussed (regarding the silence of many speakers beyond the 7.1.4 basic layout)

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post #8196 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
What would you consider 100% perfect? The Dolby guidelines for speaker placement aren't exactly rigorous after all. The actual allowances change a bit based on channel count, but as an example, in a 9.1.6 configuration Top Middles can be at 70°-110°. In a designed and engineered theater, none of the recommended speaker placements should be difficult to achieve. Even the 5.x.6 living room system I calibrated last week managed to meet those guidelines, and it was open to Kitchen/Breakfast/Office/Hallways.
I have heard 80° is perfect for the top middles to support all formats. And are you able to position the ceiling speakers perfectly symmetrical? A few centimeters off on drilling the wholes (or positioning the in ceiling boxes). Yes the formats have relatively large possibilities for adjustments, but the symmetrical layout still applies. And of course.... 100% perfect implies you have taken into consideration the wall reflections if there are difference in distance (or material) on the left vs the right side (and/or front/back) and so on...

The 3D remapping is a beauty. As always; setting stuff as close to perfect as you on the physical level is still extremely important

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post #8197 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
Just curious...what are you going with for a processor?
Lexicon MC-10 since my dealer sells Harman. My room is a combo theater and game room and will never see beyond 7.x.4. I am never going to use the advanced features of the Trinnov, and I cant justify the added expense for just room correction. I have experience with Dirac Live and know I can set that up right by myself. I think Dirac Live with the M2s and 7 series speakers will be "good enough".

Since placing the order, I have felt torn on spending that kind of money on a processor. I know its future proof by getting away from DSP chipsets, but I can do three life-cycles of Dirac Live processors for the cost. I am confident the Alt16 will be fairly old and long in the tooth by that time. I work in IT, so I know an i3 processor and motherboard wont last forever. Also working in IT, I really don't enjoy doing tech in my spare time unless it is studying something new that I can make money on with billable hours. I just don't find the infinite tweaking of a Trinnov type product appealing anymore. No offense to those that do, but I am troubleshooting and configuring via my laptop all day. I don't want to do it in my theater room. I would rather stroll in with a beer, shoot some pool, watch a movie, or play some mindless Galaga, Golden Tee, Donkey Kong, or Ms Pacman. Enough rambling, but I thought I would give some backdrop to my decision.
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post #8198 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Lexicon MC-10 since my dealer sells Harman. My room is a combo theater and game room and will never see beyond 7.x.4. I am never going to use the advanced features of the Trinnov, and I cant justify the added expense for just room correction. I have experience with Dirac Live and know I can set that up right by myself. I think Dirac Live with the M2s and 7 series speakers will be "good enough".

Since placing the order, I have felt torn on spending that kind of money on a processor. I know its future proof by getting away from DSP chipsets, but I can do three life-cycles of Dirac Live processors for the cost. I am confident the Alt16 will be fairly old and long in the tooth by that time. I work in IT, so I know an i3 processor and motherboard wont last forever. Also working in IT, I really don't enjoy doing tech in my spare time unless it is studying something new that I can make money on with billable hours. I just don't find the infinite tweaking of a Trinnov type product appealing anymore. No offense to those that do, but I am troubleshooting and configuring via my laptop all day. I don't want to do it in my theater room. I would rather stroll in with a beer, shoot some pool, watch a movie, or play some mindless Galaga, Golden Tee, Donkey Kong, or Ms Pacman. Enough rambling, but I thought I would give some backdrop to my decision.
Totally understandable! My first and second, what I refer to as, serious processors were a Lexicon MC-1 and MC-12B. They were, and still are, two of my all time favorites. I'm sure the MC-10 falls right in line!

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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have heard 80° is perfect for the top middles to support all formats. And are you able to position the ceiling speakers perfectly symmetrical? A few centimeters off on drilling the wholes (or positioning the in ceiling boxes). Yes the formats have relatively large possibilities for adjustments, but the symmetrical layout still applies. And of course.... 100% perfect implies you have taken into consideration the wall reflections if there are difference in distance (or material) on the left vs the right side (and/or front/back) and so on...

The 3D remapping is a beauty. As always; setting stuff as close to perfect as you on the physical level is still extremely important
A few centimeters off here and there would be handled by time delay and level matching, and probably not even then, since the difference in SPL by that delta in distance is negligible and the difference in distance would barely be within the microphone tolerances.

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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Don't get too excited, it is not the Lexicon of old and is nothing more that re-badged Arcam with Logic 7. Harman thinks they are fooling people with new stickers
Ha!

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A few centimeters off here and there would be handled by time delay and level matching, and probably not even then, since the difference in SPL by that delta in distance is negligible and the difference in distance would barely be within the microphone tolerances.
Keep in mind that difference in material of the walls also have an effect. If I manage to place the calibration microphone close to perfect (max 0.2° off; I can hear the difference in the output). I'm the guy crawling around for hours with a laser measurement tool getting stuff as close to perfection as possible. We are all different

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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Molon, I'm curious what you decide to go with too. You have very nice ancillary gear so it can certainly justify the purchase of a top rated unit. I would suggest you look at something like the NAD prepros with Dirac etc... I would have considered suggesting the Emotiva prepros but I've had recurrent headaches from mine (which is only now used in the family room). Still, they offer a lot of sound quality and value for the money. I assume you changed your mind after hearing about the limitations recently discussed (regarding the silence of many speakers beyond the 7.1.4 basic layout)
There's a LOT more to the Altitude than just high channel count, namely the toolkit of the Optimizer (which deserves its own paragraph but I'll save that for another time), PEQ that can be used before acoustic correction or layered on top if done carefully, flexible three-way bass management and SOTA crossover slope setting, the target curve editor's flexibility, the choice of FIR post-Optimizer EQ or graphic EQ for fine-tuning at a channel level, and the flexibility of n-way crossovers for level and delay sensitive settings. That's leaving 3D remapping out of it.

And I'd disagree that those speakers are as a rule "silent"; it depends on the content to be honest, meaning what you watch or listen to, and your configuration. And even then there's some workarounds for specific upmixers and codecs (copying inputs and attenuating level/delay) . You can even have a "native" preset and a "copy so everything is playing" preset with Atmos, Auro, or DTS:X if you absolutely need that. There's a price for accuracy, but it's possible. Or simply compare a "basic" 7.1.4 layout to one that uses the extra channels and hear differences in sonic resolution when the speakers for the presence channels are natively more active (see Godzilla and Hunger-Killer for examples of just how often that can happen on my recent purchases).

Just my $0.02....everyone has to have their own price/value proposition. If it's set and forget as good as you can get with a minimum of fuss, and you're either not going to tweak yourself or hire an Adam or Curt (or at least have a dealer or Jon assist you remotely), I suppose it's a different equation.

Not saying this specifically about Molon, just a more general counterpoint to your own post.

Good luck to him; if he's happy with Dirac and Lexicon because he doesn't see the value for him of the overall Trinnov kit, that's his judgment call.
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post #8203 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 01:23 PM
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I also read somewhere that the JBL SDP-75 does not offer the PEQ functionality of the Trinnov Altitude 16-32 as well. Can I get a confirmation of that. I have a good friend making some important decisions at the moment, and the more factual information we have to make the correct decision the better.

Thank you in advance.

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post #8204 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Keep in mind that difference in material of the walls also have an effect. If I manage to place the calibration microphone close to perfect (max 0.2° off; I can hear the difference in the output). I'm the guy crawling around for hours with a laser measurement tool getting stuff as close to perfection as possible. We are all different
Maybe. That still isn't something that remapping does tho.

The 3D microphone only claims a resolution of +/- 2° anyway. Frequency response is excellent with the microphone calibration files, and although I can't find a specification, I believe I've seen very accurate measurements for time delay. I'd wager most people can hear a .5ms difference in a stereo image/phantom center. That would equate to roughly 6" or 15cm.
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I also read somewhere that the JBL SDP-75 does not offer the PEQ functionality of the Trinnov Altitude 16-32 as well. Can I get a confirmation of that. I have a good friend making some important decisions at the moment, and the more factual information we have to make the correct decision the better.

Thank you in advance.
Yes, that is a fact. The tradeoff is that you have access to the PEQ filter sets for JBL speakers that are derived from Spinorama measurements. But you will want some 3rd party DSP to handle subwoofers.
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post #8206 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Maybe. That still isn't something that remapping does tho.

The 3D microphone only claims a resolution of +/- 2° anyway. Frequency response is excellent with the microphone calibration files, and although I can't find a specification, I believe I've seen very accurate measurements for time delay. I'd wager most people can hear a .5ms difference in a stereo image/phantom center. That would equate to roughly 6" or 15cm.
Have you ever tried 3D remapping? I don't mean enabled it on/off. But look at the output based on 3D remapping; done measurements, paying attention to positions of the measurements etc.

My system are able to resolve down to millimeters regarding speaker position. I have done fine-tuning and calibration of my Altitude32 possibly 100+ times.

HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Yes, that is a fact. The tradeoff is that you have access to the PEQ filter sets for JBL speakers that are derived from Spinorama measurements. But you will want some 3rd party DSP to handle subwoofers.
Can you elaborate your last statement? Why would you recommend using 3rd party DSP to handle subwoofers versus letting the Alt handles the subs too?
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
A good friend told me my decision was akin to kicking the Playmate of the Year out of my bed. That is probably true. The Trinnov is very sexy, very popular, and almost every guy dreams of bedding her in their theater. However, as with most sexy and popular ladies, I started to realize she was very expensive, very complicated, and was going to be a pain in the arse to make happy. Granted, I could hire the young pool guy who can make her sing in all her glory because I lack the proper skill-sets, tools, or experience. The thought of paying another man to satisfy my Playmate of the Year in my own theater while I on-looked was just too much to bear.
When I bought my A32, the dealer came and did the calibration. Showed me how stuff worked, and the basics. Now I know more than my dealer I have been playing with this magical box daily for a year soon. Testing out, experimenting; measuring; talking to other experienced people.

I'm also using REW in addition; to see result of my changes in settings etc. REW or similar solutions are key to build understanding (and to get to know your room).

Edit:
The A32 should not be compared with the playmate of the year. Some things you buy, and other things you don't Think of the A32 as the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II in audio. It can do magic, but you need to understand how to control it. That's why it is smart not to start from scratch without any input or assistance.
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HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 Network Player - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846

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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Hva you ever tried 3D remapping? I don't mean enabled it on/off. But lookout at the output based on 3D remapping; done measurements, paying attention to positions of the measurements etc.

My system are able to resolve down to millimeters regarding speaker position. I have done fine-tuning and calibration of my Altitude32 possibly 100+ times.
I have, yes. In clients rooms (70+) and in my Lab where I've had an Altitude for close to 3 yrs now I think? I'm not dismissing it as a valid tool.
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post #8210 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I have, yes. In clients rooms (70+) and in my Lab where I've had an Altitude for close to 3 yrs now I think? I'm not dismissing it as a valid tool.
I can think of at least two cases, both for dealing in not-ideal placements, where I've found remapping beneficial for me.

1) A single row of seats - with front side surround 1 at about 75 degrees and side surround at 105. With 3D remapping on, and the Atmos placement of bed side surround ideally at 90 degrees, you get a phantom imaged ideal side at 90. That avoids focus point issues (although in a high performance room with design flexibility, following your HAA and Jon's Trinnov WSR recommendations, there's other ways around it with elevation). Although, I'm primarily interested in one seat out of all in that one row...
2) Rear surrounds - ideally for Atmos they should be at about 135 degrees, but in my room that would put one rear in the middle of the HT door . So my actual rears are more like 145-150. With 3D remapping, I can get something imaged using my true side surrounds and rears behind the listener at 135, and use the rears where they are for a DTS:X layout.

There's some other cases, like remapping a phantom center by using both below the screen and above the screen speakers if you have a TV or a non-AT screen (ugh), or some electronically induced deviation that's audible and can't be addressed otherwise. But I think that in a SOTA pre-engineered room, it's something that's a last resort to design and acoustic treatment. And less useful in a multi-row setting that leans more on the current recommended Trinnov speaker configurations by row/seating/listening area than the layouts that are available in the Optimizer.

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post #8211 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 02:30 PM
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If you are ever in the Nashville area (yes, I'm no longer homeless! ), then I'll extend the same offer you made, and open up my Lab any time for you to play in.

Hey, Nashville is on my bucket list (as well as getting you out to calibrate my system within the next few months hopefully as theatre renovation/upgrade starts August 1st!)! Only when are you ever home? HA!
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https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #8212 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 04:39 PM
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Someone mentioned the movie Moon (2009) UHD. Atmos uses the whole channel list of available Atmos outputs.

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HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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post #8213 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 05:39 PM
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Trinnov Altitude

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Someone mentioned the movie Moon (2009) UHD. Atmos uses the whole channel list of available Atmos outputs.





Alita - Battle Angel; a must have to add to every Trinnov owners collection. Also makes use of all speakers. Quite a few bass heavy scenes in there that will shake any loose objects.

The US, 4K movie also comes with a 3D movie version which is rare these days.


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Trinnov Altitude 32, LCR JBL M2, JBL LSR 708i, 705i, Q-SYS Core 110f, Amps- QSC CXD4.2Q, 4.3Q, 4.5Q
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post #8214 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
There's a LOT more to the Altitude than just high channel count, namely the toolkit of the Optimizer (which deserves its own paragraph but I'll save that for another time), PEQ that can be used before acoustic correction or layered on top if done carefully, flexible three-way bass management and SOTA crossover slope setting, the target curve editor's flexibility, the choice of FIR post-Optimizer EQ or graphic EQ for fine-tuning at a channel level, and the flexibility of n-way crossovers for level and delay sensitive settings. That's leaving 3D remapping out of it.

And I'd disagree that those speakers are as a rule "silent"; it depends on the content to be honest, meaning what you watch or listen to, and your configuration. And even then there's some workarounds for specific upmixers and codecs (copying inputs and attenuating level/delay) . You can even have a "native" preset and a "copy so everything is playing" preset with Atmos, Auro, or DTS:X if you absolutely need that. There's a price for accuracy, but it's possible. Or simply compare a "basic" 7.1.4 layout to one that uses the extra channels and hear differences in sonic resolution when the speakers for the presence channels are natively more active (see Godzilla and Hunger-Killer for examples of just how often that can happen on my recent purchases).

Just my $0.02....everyone has to have their own price/value proposition. If it's set and forget as good as you can get with a minimum of fuss, and you're either not going to tweak yourself or hire an Adam or Curt (or at least have a dealer or Jon assist you remotely), I suppose it's a different equation.

Not saying this specifically about Molon, just a more general counterpoint to your own post.

Good luck to him; if he's happy with Dirac and Lexicon because he doesn't see the value for him of the overall Trinnov kit, that's his judgment call.
Hey Stu, Molon made the comment that "Knowing what I know now, I couldn't justify it" referring to the purchase of the Altitude and I assumed he was referring to the fact that not all 3d audio titles use all of the speakers and this was the reason he was no longer considering the Altitude. It doesn't take away from the great things the Trinnov does right but it does change the value proposition for some...

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post #8215 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I believe I've seen very accurate measurements for time delay.
I've compared every channels' time delay with the left front [excluding the LFE]. They are as perfect as I have ever seen (better than what I got with my RS20i). Most are absolutely perfect (the two channels being compared impulse peaks are hidden by the other - zero variance). Quite impressive.

And in the FWIW department, I have not heard any difference in my room with and without 3D remapping engaged. But then again, all of my speakers are within a degree or two of where they are supposed to be (for Atmos).
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post #8216 of 9116 Old 07-24-2019, 07:39 PM
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I was able to catch my order prior to shipment and decided to cancel it. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't justify it. I wish you guys the best.
If your replacement is not already ordered, and if you can find a used Datasat LS10 a great price, I would highly recommend it as an option. I have a friend who bought one for ~$6K. And there are a few other reasonably price processors that run Dirac.
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post #8217 of 9116 Old 07-25-2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If your replacement is not already ordered, and if you can find a used Datasat LS10 a great price, I would highly recommend it as an option. I have a friend who bought one for ~$6K. And there are a few other reasonably price processors that run Dirac.
You can even get an RS20i for that! Unbelievable!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223520895955
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post #8218 of 9116 Old 07-25-2019, 03:41 AM
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Hi All,


Can someone help me to setup Roon?


I was able to install Roonserver in USB SSD hard drive that is connected to my Synology.


All my music is in Synology.


What is the next step? How can i control/play music via my macbookpro? I dont have an ipad.


Thanks
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post #8219 of 9116 Old 07-25-2019, 03:58 AM
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You install roon for macos (you will only use the remote part); when starting up on your mac; you will be asked to connect to core (select the core you have on the synology).

If this does not work out of the box; ask the good people at Roon; they will assist you.

HT: Trinnov Altitude32 (AL32-1632)/Amplitude8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 Network Player - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - NORDOST Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846
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post #8220 of 9116 Old 07-25-2019, 04:01 AM
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It’s probably better to install the server not on the usb sad, but directly through the Synology if you have an intel version.


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