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post #8281 of 8801 Old 07-27-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Impressive.

Do you get any hot-spotting with some of the speakers being quite close to the listening position?
No, but the 804 D2 should be 20 cm higher. It is a slight problem when I have people sitting on the sides (unless they lean back and lift up the recliner).

This will be fixed now when I replace the 804 D2 with 803 D2 (which are around 20cm higher). Not sure what to do with the 804 D2; sell them most likely. Wife starts to get annoyed - I don't think I can pull off setting up the 804 D2s as surround2 speakers
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post #8282 of 8801 Old 07-27-2019, 06:03 PM
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Just finished the 4K of Alita Battle Angel. Kind of a mash-up of Robocop, original Rollerball (I ignore the remake), Running Man, with a touch of Blade Runner & Pinocchio thrown in. Even has a cloud city Visually it's a stunning mix of real & CG.

The sound mix does indeed light up all the speakers and not just occasionally, pretty aggressive. I used my preset with dual side surrounds for 9.1.6 and they all got used. My sub channel went into the red a number of times throughout the movie.

High channel count owners & bass heads should be pleased with this one


Edit - add Pixar-type CG the mashup list. Alita may not be the epitome of originality but fun to watch the overall conglomeration
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post #8283 of 8801 Old 07-27-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Just finished the 4K of Alita Battle Angel. Kind of a mash-up of Robocop, original Rollerball (I ignore the remake), Running Man, with a touch of Blade Runner & Pinocchio thrown in. Even has a cloud city Visually it's a stunning mix of real & CG.

The sound mix does indeed light up all the speakers and not just occasionally, pretty aggressive. I used my preset with dual side surrounds for 9.1.6 and they all got used. My sub channel went into the red a number of times throughout the movie.

High channel count owners & bass heads should be pleased with this one
Now I'm really pumped !!
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post #8284 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Just finished the 4K of Alita Battle Angel. Kind of a mash-up of Robocop, original Rollerball (I ignore the remake), Running Man, with a touch of Blade Runner & Pinocchio thrown in. Even has a cloud city Visually it's a stunning mix of real & CG.

The sound mix does indeed light up all the speakers and not just occasionally, pretty aggressive. I used my preset with dual side surrounds for 9.1.6 and they all got used. My sub channel went into the red a number of times throughout the movie.

High channel count owners & bass heads should be pleased with this one
Hi ss9001. Do you use these dual side surrounds as front wide + side surround or just you duplicate the side surrounds? I've a narrow but long room and I'd like to duplicate side surround speakers without using front wide channels. May you explain a bit how did you configured these array of surround speakers?

Im not a Trinnov 16 owner yet, but I'm already on it (maybe next year).
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post #8285 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
ROON VS OPPO VS CAYIN IDAP-6 REVIEW

Today I did some comparison test with an audiophiles friend between Trinnov Roon vs Oppo 205 vs Cayin.
Remarkable outcome considering the raving reviews of the Trinnov-Roon combo by some other well-experienced listeners here on this thread.

Question: How accurately did you equalize SPLs between the different sources?
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post #8286 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
Hi ss9001. Do you use these dual side surrounds as front wide + side surround or just you duplicate the side surrounds? I've a narrow but long room and I'd like to duplicate side surround speakers without using front wide channels. May you explain a bit how did you configured these array of surround speakers?

Im not a Trinnov 16 owner yet, but I'm already on it (maybe next year).
Neither

Forward side surrounds or wides - not using those positions
Duplicated side surrounds - example of arrayed speakers - not doing

What I am doing is a rearward pair of side surrounds that are positioned inbetween the sides & true rears. Dolby can direct sounds for smoother panning between sides & rears. In Dolby parlance they are Lrs2 & Rrs2. It's not duplicating but imaging between them. Similar to adding left-center & right-center between L & C and R &C.

My main reason & use of them is for legacy quadraphonic playback where surrounds were more rearward than sides in modern layouts. I have a preset that turns off the sides and turns on the rearward sides so that side surround from 4.0 & 5.1 is mapped to them in a quad-style layout. Works great!

Only on 2 occasions have I tried using these on Atmos movie -

1. On Annihilation they got zero use so that plus no mids led me to conclude that Annihilation is probably hard-coded to 7.1.4.

2. On Alita they did get used. Not all the time, just like all channels, but they did light up occasionally so the renderer was mapping some of the objects to them. All depends on the mix.

If you are doing multiple rows of seats and want duplicated surround speakers, I believe you need to setup an array in the Altitude and assign those speakers to the array. Then those speakers can playback the same sound. I've never done an array or need to do so since we have only 1 row of seats positioned about 1/3 in from the rear wall & my sides are deliberately positioned close to the correct angle. Someone else who's done arrays may be able to go into more detail. And it's covered pretty well in the manual.

And welcome as a soon-to-be-Altitude owner
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post #8287 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
What I am doing is a rearward pair of side surrounds that are positioned inbetween the sides & true rears. Dolby can direct sounds for smoother panning between sides & rears. In Dolby parlance they are Lrs2 & Rrs2.
That would be either Lrs1/Rrs1 at about 120 degrees (aka rear wides), or Ls2/Rs2 at about 105 degrees (rs2 is beyond rs).

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post #8288 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
That would be either Lrs1/Rrs1 at about 120 degrees (aka rear wides), or Ls2/Rs2 at about 105 degrees (rs2 is beyond rs).

Sorry, I know those are legit Dolby Atmos positions but not the ones I used & posted about. Mine is described at the bottom of pg 32 of the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines white paper under Additional Speaker Placement Guidelines - Lrs2 / Rrs2.

See screenshots please.

And you'll also see a screenshot of my Altitude layout showing they are indeed Lrs2 & Rrs2 as I posted.

I know you mean well thinking I made a mistake but I know what I did, the position choices available in my layout and the one I chose for my intended use. Thanks...
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post #8289 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Sorry, I know those are legit Dolby Atmos positions but not the ones I used & posted about. Mine is described at the bottom of pg 32 of the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines white paper under Additional Speaker Placement Guidelines - Lrs2 / Rrs2.

See screenshots please.

And you'll also see a screenshot of my Altitude layout showing they are indeed Lrs2 & Rrs2 as I posted.

I know you mean well thinking I made a mistake but I know what I did, the position choices available in my layout and the one I chose for my intended use. Thanks...
Ok, so we are talking about the same Atmos position. What I meant to explain is that this position is not between side surround and rear surround but beyond rear surround. The order going from front to back is: SideSurround1, SideSurround, SideSurround2, RearSurround1, RearSurround, Rearsurround2

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #8290 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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Speaker lay out

I have a 5.1.4 speaker lay out and using a Lyngdorf MP-50 for the moment but....I'm looking at an Altitude 16.

My question is if I can add a center height speaker(straight above the Center speaker) and a Center back channel(instead of the usual 2 back surrounds). Is this possible with the A16 and when will those extra speakers be engaged? All the time?
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post #8291 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by magicvinny View Post
I have a 5.1.4 speaker lay out and using a Lyngdorf MP-50 for the moment but....I'm looking at an Altitude 16.

My question is if I can add a center height speaker(straight above the Center speaker) and a Center back channel(instead of the usual 2 back surrounds). Is this possible with the A16 and when will those extra speakers be engaged? All the time?
To provide the most appropriate answer to your question, it would help knowing the total number of speakers you are planning to use and their approximate locations. Knowing you will not have physical rear surrounds, Altitude's remapping could create virtual rears for which it needs a physical speaker besides the Center Back to remap from, which could be the Center Height when playing Atmos as this format does not provide a signal for Center Height. For DTS:X however, you might want to make other choices than to sacrifice it’s Center Height for this purpose.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #8292 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Ok, so we are talking about the same Atmos position. What I meant to explain is that this position is not between side surround and rear surround but beyond rear surround. The order going from front to back is: SideSurround1, SideSurround, SideSurround2, RearSurround1, RearSurround, Rearsurround2
True - however, in my "quad-style" preset, Rear Surrounds are set to none, Side Surrounds are set to none. And native playback (no upmixing) of a 4.0 quad recording on SACD or a 5.1 SACD, show input meters for the surrounds as normal Side Surrounds as expected since that's the recording; but output meters show the Lrs2/Rrs2 channels getting the sound instead. IOW, it's mapping normal side surrounds to what is the Lrs2 & Rrs2 speakers. Those recordings don't have rear surrounds and with native playback, rears would be silent if I had them turned on. If you follow the order you listed, logically I would think there wouldn't be any sound from the Lrs2/Rrs2 positions either. Regardless of the ordering of channels, that's why I'm interpreting that the sound localization is in actuality is between the sides & rears The sides are in actuality being mapped to the Lrs2/Rrs2 positions. What I hear is sides being re-directed to a pair of rearward surrounds instead of rears. Proof is in the listening as well as watching the meters I may try turning on the rears to see how it behaves with a 4.0 recording. If it follows the order you describe, the Lrs2/Rrs2's might be silent and it goes to the rears. If it doesn't follow the order you describe, my rears would be silent.

However it's ordered, it works as I expected and allows playback of legacy 4.0 in the manner it was originally intended - 4 speakers in a rectangle. And that's all I cared about

The other facet is when these are on with Atmos, they didn't always get used while Ls, Rs, Lrs & Rrs did. Again, if it follows that ordering, I would think it would map to Lrs2, Rrs2 first and they would become the predominant source of "rear" surround with the actual rears being phantom imaged in some way but I admit I may not fully understand how the decoder is designed to map.


The decoder may be smarter than us, me anyway


All fun!

Steve

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post #8293 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 03:51 PM
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B&W 802 D3 in place; I will never ever move these speakers myself again. 95KG/speaker (209 pounds) in a massive box via stairs (2 floors).

Edit:
I actually had help; let me rephrase - I will never ever take part in moving these speakers again. They are monsters. 803 D2 speakers rolled over to be surround (much better, they are 20cm higher than the previous 804 D2).
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post #8294 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 07:29 PM
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Congrats Berland, nice speakers. I haven't heard the latest v3 but the previous ones were quite nice when set up in a decent room. But I'm not sure they are nearfield speakers...let us know what you think when you've had a chance to listen to them in your setup.

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post #8295 of 8801 Old 07-28-2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Congrats Berland, nice speakers. I haven't heard the latest v3 but the previous ones were quite nice when set up in a decent room. But I'm not sure they are nearfield speakers...let us know what you think when you've had a chance to listen to them in your setup.
I have of course been able to listen to them already at my setup, but only in bypass mode; later today it will be a PEQ session then calibration

I know that the 802 and 800 D3 works extremely well in "near-field". If you call distance of 2.5meters to speakers for nearfield.

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post #8296 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Again, if it follows that ordering, I would think it would map to Lrs2, Rrs2 first and they would become the predominant source of "rear" surround with the actual rears being phantom imaged in some way but I admit I may not fully understand how the decoder is designed to map.

The decoder may be smarter than us, me anyway

All fun!
The Altitude offers a tremendous amount of flexibility, which includes mapping of the typical format channels (Atmos, Dolby, Auro3D, DTS:X, DTS) to speaker channels (numbered, named and displayed in a diagram on the speaker configuration page), and linking those speaker channels to numbered amplifier output connectors on the back of the Altitude. So as long as you do not activate the remapping function, the way the signals flow is completely at your fingertips.

It appears to me that with adding an additional pair of surround speakers, in the speaker configuration menu you added speaker channels Lrs2 and Rrs2 (in the diagram displayed behind the RearSurrounds), while physically placing this additional pair at another location (between the SideSurrounds and the RearSurrounds). Is that correct? Although the flexible mapping will allow this to not have an effect on how your system sounds, it can make the mapping more difficult to understand.

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post #8297 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
later today it will be a PEQ session then calibration

Would you mind just taking us(me) through step by step of how you carry out your PEQ session? I.e. how do you initially find out what frequencies need adjusting, how do you tell if the adjustment you have entered acheives the desired effect? What other programmes/equipment you use to do/verify this?
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post #8298 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 03:38 AM
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Would you mind just taking us(me) through step by step of how you carry out your PEQ session? I.e. how do you initially find out what frequencies need adjusting, how do you tell if the adjustment you have entered acheives the desired effect? What other programmes/equipment you use to do/verify this?
Sure!

With PEQ I initially focus on <200Hz frequencies. Because it this part is under control; the rest will automatically sound much better. I start with a REW frequency sweep on the desired speaker (bypass, and No PEQ or bass management). I then adjust the curve via PEQ to be as flat as possible. Straight line is the goal. When this is done for all speakers (the two new ones; and I need to redo the old fronts set to surround duty). I might also do a sweep on all the other channels to see if any big difference occur compared to previously - but don't expect any big difference here). Then I do a new calibration (focus on correct microphone placement and getting its vectors aligned perfectly to the speaker layout). When this is done; I do a new REW measurement on the changed speakers (also check the other ones that should not have any change). Then I apply the desired target curve (and enable bass-management), redo REW measurement to check the crossovers to the sub for each individual speaker. At last I adjust if something is off according to my desired target curve via the different EQ's on output.

REW workflow contains measure frquency sweep; do adjustment; redo frequency sweep until you are happy with the result coming out the the individual speaker. Usually I also look into the combined output for all subs and do adjustment to get the combination output perfect.

Edit:
I know some use the target curve instead of PEQ - but I prefer PEQ to adjust if something is off on each individual output. It is hard to do fine adjustments using target curve (not enough resolution of the adjustments).
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post #8299 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Sure!

With PEQ I initially focus on <200Hz frequencies. Because it this part is under control; the rest will automatically sound much better. I start with a REW frequency sweep on the desired speaker (bypass, and No PEQ or bass management). I then adjust the curve via PEQ to be as flat as possible. Straight line is the goal. When this is done for all speakers (the two new ones; and I need to redo the old fronts set to surround duty). I might also do a sweep on all the other channels to see if any big difference occur compared to previously - but don't expect any big difference here). Then I do a new calibration (focus on correct microphone placement and getting its vectors aligned perfectly to the speaker layout). When this is done; I do a new REW measurement on the changed speakers (also check the other ones that should not have any change). Then I apply the desired target curve (and enable bass-management), redo REW measurement to check the crossovers to the sub for each individual speaker. At last I adjust if something is off according to my desired target curve via the different EQ's on output.

REW workflow contains measure frquency sweep; do adjustment; redo frequency sweep until you are happy with the result coming out the the individual speaker. Usually I also look into the combined output for all subs and do adjustment to get the combination output perfect.

Edit:
I know some use the target curve instead of PEQ - but I prefer PEQ to adjust if something is off on each individual output. It is hard to do fine adjustments using target curve (not enough resolution of the adjustments).

Thank you Berland for such a comprehensive description, I will give that a try.
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post #8300 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 06:09 AM
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And I know OmniMic does it and I think REW does it. You can have REW/OmniMic calculate the filters (Center point, gain, bandwidth) for you automatically for up to 6 PEQs, then manually enter them into the Trinnov. And if that doesn't get you what you want, do it again, using the previously PEQd results as a starting point. Assuming no uncorrectable room modes, you can end up with a ruler flat line (that is where my OCD kicks in).

But, I would highly recommend, prior to calculating the PEQs, you take some additional REW measurements around the MLP to insure that what you might fix with PEQs in dead center doesn't make it much worse slightly away from dead center. Been there; done that!! Bad idea.

Having said all of that, and based upon a recent set of tests I did, and depending on how you set some other parameters inside of Advanced section of the Trinnov, and what the non PEQd curve looks like, Optimizer can make the curve, without PEQs as flat as you can with. I posted my results previously in this thread. Use judiciously.
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post #8301 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
... redo frequency sweep until you are happy with the result coming out the the individual speaker. Usually I also look into the combined output for all subs and do adjustment to get the combination output perfect.

I presume you're aware that if more than one speaker is playing the same freq (in the modal region), the sum may be very different than you'd expect from simple addition...

[edit] Which is to say that they may have flat freq response when playing separately, but not when playing together.

This bears on choice of sub XO freq; for example raising it by 20 Hz may move a troublesome room mode freq from the mains to the the subs, which will always play it the same way.

Noah

Last edited by noah katz; 07-29-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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post #8302 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have of course been able to listen to them already at my setup, but only in bypass mode; later today it will be a PEQ session then calibration

I know that the 802 and 800 D3 works extremely well in "near-field". If you call distance of 2.5meters to speakers for nearfield.

https://www.bowerswilkins.com/net/bl...-at-abbey-road
I can't tell exactly from the Abbey road pics but I'd estimate more like 10ft, which is the recommended listening distance for these iirc

Here's a quote from Kal Rubinson's review of the 802d3:

"I placed the 802 D3s where most speakers have sounded best in my room: about 11' from my main listening seat, which is just a bit more than the 9' 10" that B&W says is typically required for proper integration of the drivers' outputs
"

Anyway, it sounds like you're enjoying them and that's what matters.

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post #8303 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I can't tell exactly from the Abbey road pics but I'd estimate more like 10ft, which is the recommended listening distance for these iirc

Here's a quote from Kal Rubinson's review of the 802d3:

"I placed the 802 D3s where most speakers have sounded best in my room: about 11' from my main listening seat, which is just a bit more than the 9' 10" that B&W says is typically required for proper integration of the drivers' outputs
"

Anyway, it sounds like you're enjoying them and that's what matters.
They measure great; and sound great. For 2 channel music it is the absolute best I have ever heard (I'm not even done finetuning). Did a quick PEQ up to 200Hz; and calibration. The speakers get lost in space (like they are not there) - and vocals get out on to the floor. I have turned them against MLP so the crossing point is 2-3 feet behind me. I have stopped using Auro-3D for music; stereo is MUCH better now. I have a few issues in the 50Hz area with the room (same for old speakers as well); so I use the sub's for music as well (the 802 D3 measures in REW fine down to 10Hz). I have currently the crossover at 80Hz with slope of 48 dB/oct. I have not had time to finetune crossover with REW, but according to previous measurements in same room this should be in the ballpark at least.

Regarding distance directly from B&W manual of the 802 D3:
Quote:
Conventional Stereo Systems
To begin with, the speakers should be positioned
between 1.5m and 3m apart at two corners of an
equilateral triangle completed by the listening area at
the third corner. The speakers should be approximately
0.5m away from the back wall, and at least 0.5m away
from any side walls (above).

Home Theatre Systems
If the speakers are to be used for the front channels
in a home theatre system, they should be placed
closer together than for 2-channel audio, because
the surround channels tend to widen the image.
Positioning the speakers within approximately 0.5m
of the sides of the screen will also help keep the
sound image in scale with the visual image. As with
conventional stereo positioning, the speakers should
ideally be at least 0.5m away from any side walls.
So my guess is that the reviewer got something wrong here. I would like to think B&W knows best?

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post #8304 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
No, but the 804 D2 should be 20 cm higher. It is a slight problem when I have people sitting on the sides (unless they lean back and lift up the recliner).

This will be fixed now when I replace the 804 D2 with 803 D2 (which are around 20cm higher). Not sure what to do with the 804 D2; sell them most likely. Wife starts to get annoyed - I don't think I can pull off setting up the 804 D2s as surround2 speakers
Thanks.

Sorry if you've already mentioned this but what are the dimensions of your room/space?
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post #8305 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

Sorry if you've already mentioned this but what are the dimensions of your room/space?
The room is bigger (open solution, around 430 square feet); but the area with all the equipment is located in an area slightly above 4x4meters (13x13feet). Ceiling height 8 feet.

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post #8306 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
TI have stopped using Auro-3D for music; stereo is MUCH better now.
A good friend of mine has one of the best 2 channel systems I have ever heard - in a custom built room. Amps and preamps are by Spectral, speakers are by Magico (MSRP ~$65,000). It is breath taking. That said, even he likes the addition of AuroMatic if done properly and conservatively. That you don't means you must really be blown away by the sound.

Congrats
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post #8307 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
AuroMatic if done properly and conservatively.
Agree! Subtle is the key. I have mine set at small room and intensity at 10. Curious what settings others are using?
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post #8308 of 8801 Old 07-29-2019, 08:36 PM
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post #8309 of 8801 Old 07-30-2019, 01:24 AM
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It is clear that 803 D2 for surround duty gave an extreme lift in quality compared to 804 D2. Much better on all levels (and it is not "shooting" directly into my ears (it is 20 cm above ear-level). Getting the bass-part in place for the 803 D2 in surround position were far more complicated - but managed to get that in place as well.

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post #8310 of 8801 Old 07-30-2019, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Agree! Subtle is the key. I have mine set at small room and intensity at 10. Curious what settings others are using?

Small & 10 works for me too. For me the sweet spot is 10 to 12.
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