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post #8581 of 9390 Old 08-31-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Again I’m note sure it CAN be done.

Not that this is a popular opinion on this thread but Dolby has very little incentive to devote resources to such an use case specific feature for such a small number of consumers... Haines wise I’m not sure I could make that case.

DTS had to do something. They created a codec that is very limited (hence all the 7.1.4 titles) and they saw 9.1.6 coming down the path... that market will be much much larger than anything greater than 16 channels, and even then it’s going to be a very small market vs 5.1.2-7.1.4 installs....

Dolby already adapts to 9.1.6 natively.... DTS does not.


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If Dolby can possibly do it on their very own cinema decoder with home Atmos tracks, I would hope it's a feature that could be added to, at the very least, Trinnov processors as they definitely have the processing power and aren't locked in with third-party DSP chip coding.

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post #8582 of 9390 Old 08-31-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
see the CEDIA 2014 room with some > 16 channel arrayed layout with the church organ on the Auro demo disc of the time.
THAT was the demo that convinced me to move to 3D audio. The only experience I can remember that truly transported me to the original venue.
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post #8583 of 9390 Old 08-31-2019, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
If Dolby can possibly do it on their very own cinema decoder with home Atmos tracks, I would hope it's a feature that could be added to, at the very least, Trinnov processors as they definitely have the processing power and aren't locked in with third-party DSP chip coding.
I'd guess that if Trinnov had Dolby's blessing, a software solution would be possible. Since they aren't relying on the output of someone else's DSP chip, they could be able to see the object data, the bed data, total output per speaker, some combination of those etc and determine what to properly array. That wouldn't require any resources from Dolby, aside from giving their nod, and probably vetting it.

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post #8584 of 9390 Old 08-31-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I'd guess that if Trinnov had Dolby's blessing, a software solution would be possible. Since they aren't relying on the output of someone else's DSP chip, they could be able to see the object data, the bed data, total output per speaker, some combination of those etc and determine what to properly array. That wouldn't require any resources from Dolby, aside from giving their nod, and probably vetting it.

You would think it would be fairly easy since the bed surround channel data is coming from the core part of the TrueHD 7.1 codec and the objects are layered on top of that from the Atmos extension file.

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post #8585 of 9390 Old 08-31-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Again I’m note sure it CAN be done.

Not that this is a popular opinion on this thread but Dolby has very little incentive to devote resources to such an use case specific feature for such a small number of consumers... Haines wise I’m not sure I could make that case.

DTS had to do something. They created a codec that is very limited (hence all the 7.1.4 titles) and they saw 9.1.6 coming down the path... that market will be much much larger than anything greater than 16 channels, and even then it’s going to be a very small market vs 5.1.2-7.1.4 installs....

Dolby already adapts to 9.1.6 natively.... DTS does not.


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I think over time 9.1.6 might be the max for most consumer systems, except for the subwoffer number
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post #8586 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You would think it would be fairly easy since the bed surround channel data is coming from the core part of the TrueHD 7.1 codec and the objects are layered on top of that from the Atmos extension file.

The “bed channels” in a an Atmos payload only exists AFTER the objects have been extracted from the TrueHD base.

The objects are not layered on top of them.... the objects are mixed into the channel beds during encoding. They ALSO exist as separate objects in the extension packet.

It’s an important distinction IMO. Nit picky.... But it’s important.... you can’t simply assume the Trinnov could look at the TrueHD or DD+ stream before extraction of the objects and reconstruction of the bed channels.

If you re read what you said it implies the objects are added to a base “core.” encode.

That is incorrect.

It’s unlike other encoding technologies, in that the encoding actually fundamentally changed the audible content of the “core” encode by mixing the objects into the base layer before encoding. In other type of codecs (5.1/7.1 TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc) the input at the encoder goes in and gets encoded “as is.”




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post #8587 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
ABSOLUTELY!!

For truly accurate results, AC needs to be off (very low level low frequency interference). Not sure how one would deal with amp fan noise, but if the measurement mic is far enough away from the amp/fan and unless the fan is particularly noisy, it should not greatly affect results.
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Street noise and bldg service equipment is always a problem when I am working in NYC. Even 30 floors up, the LF from heavy vehicles and HVAC systems is a problem. Keep your test signals well above ambient noise, and make sure you wear suitable ear plugs. Also, there are methods of measurement, such as MLS or ESS, that can reject spurious noise. I believe that the Trinnov generates noise with some sort of embedded MLS burst, but I'm not clear if it is used in that way, or used to analyze early reflections, spatial positioning of speakers, etc. I think I have an AES paper somewhere...
Thanks for the replies.

Quick additional question...

Say you get your setup professionally calibrated but have to temporarily move a few speakers (after the calibration job is completed). You try your best to place them back in the exact position they were in. Will this affect (or "ruin") the calibration job?
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post #8588 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks for the replies.

Quick additional question...

Say you get your setup professionally calibrated but have to temporarily move a few speakers (after the calibration job is completed). You try your best to place them back in the exact position they were in. Will this affect (or "ruin") the calibration job?
Put tape down where the speakers are prior to moving them so you can put them back exactly where they were. Assuming you cannot do that, and depending on how close you got them to their original locations and depending and how precise you want things to be, you may (or may not) need a new calibration. But if you can put them back exactly where they were, then you would have no reason to re-calibrate.
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post #8589 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
One thought ...

Even in a 7.1.4 “fixed” Atmos mix the rendering engine has no idea there are static’s objects, ie it doesn’t differentiate it from any other Atmos mix.

While there seems to be a lot of hope that DTS:X can be used on an Atmos mix I don’t see how that will be possible....

The Atmos rendering engine uses all available speakers... what exactly is Pro supposed to add to that? DTS cannot look into the encode and differentiate between a side surround channel and an object when sound is coming out of said speakers....
Imagine a setting to force Atmos rendering to: 7.1.4. It would seem like that would allow Dts Neural X (Pro) expansion to occur. While Dts cannot look into the encode it can look at the decode. Isn't this what Yamaha does with their DSP over Atmos/Dts:X overlays. This could also be an option for other upmixers like immersive Logic7 (rumor?) and Dolby's own 3ch center extraction. I've been told that StormAudio is investigating their own such solution.

I'm wondering what Dts:X Pro's DSP solutions will look like. Will it onky be supported on the newer, higher horsepower DSPs (ADI Griffin Lite & TI/MDS APM-100 series). Or will they allow the Dts Neural X expansion to take place on a separate DSP? If so, that could allow StormAudio and Lyngdorf to offer Pro without any hardware updates.
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post #8590 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
What I would want is for Dolby to implement side and rear surround channel bed arraying for consumer Atmos products
What has confused me is the behavior of the 4th-gen ADI SHARC decoders on products that allow Wides. When configured for 5.1.4 + Wides the Wides carry both arrayed Side Surround bed and Wide object audio. The surrounds carry both the Side and Rear Surrounds bed audio. This behavior appears to be by design (although I'm not sure if the 5th-gen ADI's behave in this manner). The TI/MDS solutions don't allow Wides without both Side and Rear Surrounds.
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post #8591 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 10:20 AM
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Trinnov Altitude

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Imagine a setting to force Atmos rendering to: 7.1.4. It would seem like that would allow Dts Neural X (Pro) expansion to occur. While Dts cannot look into the encode it can look at the decode. Isn't this what Yamaha does with their DSP over Atmos/Dts:X overlays.

Yes that is what Yamaha does... which is simplified because their products are locked at a max 7.1.4 output....

Because Atmos has a 7 channel foundation it’s when you move upwards from that where things get tricky... i will be chorus’s to see if the same things would work (Surround AI for example) if Yamaha ever moves past 11 channels.. and how they accomplish it. They’ve never embraced wides but were always far ahead of the curve with presence/height speakers and DSP.

I don’t think Dolby would let a licensee forgo object rendering (to provide DSP post processing on a 7.1.4 PCM payload) in >7.1.4 systems to accomplish such a task.

That goes fundamentally against the point and design of Atmos.
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post #8592 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 12:17 PM
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Weird Trinnov LFE measurements.

I've not encountered this before but the Optimizer graph of my LFE channel has gotten very strange -- and incorrect.

The following is my LFE channel post PEQ but pre Optimizer (it is actually pretty flat without PEQ - but not quite this flat)



But this is what the Optimizer measurements now look like (it did not use to do this). It starts going south at about 50Hz. I have compared the various Advanced Settings between what I was using to get this vs all other times I have run the measurements and they are the same. Any ideas?

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All of this would not be needed for Atmos if they are mixed as intended and used to their capacity. I am looking at DTS:X pro as a way to enhance surround and overhead audio use in anemic mixes in addition to using it for regular non immersive mixes. A prime example is Disney. I hope Dolby will come out with something similar to overcome their forced limitations. And hopefully they remove rendering to fixed layouts in their next version.

Thinking of how Disney has been handling their surround mixes, be it their fixing the number of overhead channel use (something Dolby themselves don’t recommend), or their anemic mixes in terms of dynamics. I don’t believe all directors of Disney movies force that kind of output nor do I believe Disney management would force it (given their lack of tech skills).

Based on what I have heard so far about Atmos, there seems to be no gain/advantage in doing what they are doing. So I am not sure why they do this. It cannot be for lack of budget obviously. Who in their right minds would allow something like that to continue movie after movie? Which leads me to wonder if their mixing shop/mixers are essentially incompetent? Totally frustrated with botched mixes.

I hope the next version of Dolby and DTS do away with separate mixes for home and theaters and they are able to adapt the same mix for both with some kind of setting to control volume and space disparities. We have seen given an opportunity, the audio gets botched for whatever reason.
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post #8594 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I don’t think Dolby would let a licensee forgo object rendering (to provide DSP post processing on a 7.1.4 PCM payload) in >7.1.4 systems to accomplish such a task.

That goes fundamentally against the point and design of Atmos.
Is this not exactly what they've allowed content producers to do with 7.1.4 "Atmos" tracks?
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post #8595 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Weird Trinnov LFE measurements.

I've not encountered this before but the Optimizer graph of my LFE channel has gotten very strange -- and incorrect.

The following is my LFE channel post PEQ but pre Optimizer (it is actually pretty flat without PEQ - but not quite this flat)



But this is what the Optimizer measurements now look like (it did not use to do this). It starts going south at about 50Hz. I have compared the various Advanced Settings between what I was using to get this vs all other times I have run the measurements and they are the same. Any ideas?

If these measurements were taken from the same location and you don’t hear the graph represented by optimizer (optimizer off) my guess would be some issue with Trinnov microphone. Maybe try the same with full range speakers and see if this can replicated?
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post #8596 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Is this not exactly what they've allowed content producers to do with 7.1.4 "Atmos" tracks?

No... you suggested that the rendering engine should be locked to a particular channel count (7.1.4) in order to apply post processing. .

Since the core of an Atmos encode is 7.1 there is nothing to extract.... Surround AI is not an up mixer for Atmos.


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post #8597 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Weird Trinnov LFE measurements.

I've not encountered this before but the Optimizer graph of my LFE channel has gotten very strange -- and incorrect.

The following is my LFE channel post PEQ but pre Optimizer (it is actually pretty flat without PEQ - but not quite this flat)



But this is what the Optimizer measurements now look like (it did not use to do this). It starts going south at about 50Hz. I have compared the various Advanced Settings between what I was using to get this vs all other times I have run the measurements and they are the same. Any ideas?

The scaling is off. Looks like you are running a release candidate version, and the graphical display hasn't been updated to match the ability to adjust target curves below 20Hz. Notice the shape is still the same.
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post #8598 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The scaling is off. Looks like you are running a release candidate version, and the graphical display hasn't been updated to match the ability to adjust target curves below 20Hz. Notice the shape is still the same.
Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I guess it's time for a firmware update!!

After the initial 742 hours required to get the mic in the exact position (so the bubble sits in the middle of the circle), I can't tell you how many additional hours I have spent trying to figure out what is going on.

Since I was initially convinced I had some setting(s) wrong (though I had no idea what that might have been) I kept trying different scenarios, Presets, etc. Oh well, hopefully a firmware update will get me back in business.
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post #8599 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I guess it's time for a firmware update!!

After the initial 742 hours required to get the mic in the exact position (so the bubble sits in the middle of the circle), I can't tell you how many additional hours I have spent trying to figure out what is going on.

Since I was initially convinced I had some setting(s) wrong (though I had no idea what that might have been) I kept trying different scenarios, Presets, etc. Oh well, hopefully a firmware update will get me back in business.
The Trinnov 3D microphone has a specification of +/- 2° I believe. Just get the bubble close... I've never actually used a bubble level on any job. I carry one with me, because why not..I carry everything else. There is minimal value in being that precise, especially if you aren't using Remapping.

There isn't anything acoustically or such "wrong" going on. It is just the numbers on the X axis haven't been adjusted yet. Your OmniMic measurements verify that everything is performing just how you want. I don't know if the latest release or upcoming public release fixes that or not, as I don't really pay too close attention to those graphs. I compare the first single mic computation to what my measurements say, verify what is going on in the Summary tab, making sure that I'm getting a good measurement from the Trinnov mic and it validates what I already know about the system.

I used to always look at the subwoofer graph at multiple seats to check seat-to-seat consistency and help with measurement weighting decisions, but my current measurement rig gives me much more information, so I use that primarily.

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post #8600 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The Trinnov 3D microphone has a specification of +/- 2° I believe. Just get the bubble close... I've never actually used a bubble level on any job. I carry one with me, because why not..I carry everything else. There is minimal value in being that precise, especially if you aren't using Remapping.
I was aware that the precision is only necessary for 3D re-mapping (which I don't use), but I have this OCD thing! And to get the numbers in the Summary Tab to be close (and the speakers located appropriately in the Top View), I usually end up with the bubble close to the middle. I use (since I copied it from your work), an LCR (only) preset to get the mic placed correctly.

Thanks again. Since you might be home (Labor Day and you are on AVS), are you getting any work done on your Lab?
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post #8601 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I was aware that the precision is only necessary for 3D re-mapping (which I don't use), but I have this OCD thing! And to get the numbers in the Summary Tab to be close (and the speakers located appropriately in the Top View), I usually end up with the bubble close to the middle. I use (since I copied it from your work), an LCR (only) preset to get the mic placed correctly.

Thanks again. Since you might be home (Labor Day and you are on AVS), are you getting any work done on your Lab?
I'm in the design and budgeting phase of the Lab. I got home Saturday afternoon and fly back out 6am tomorrow, so most of my time today has been spent on house projects, laundry, a nice nap. And an 8lb pork shoulder.

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Taking the pork with you?

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post #8603 of 9390 Old 09-01-2019, 09:56 PM
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Taking the pork with you?
Hehe, I know. Into the freezer it goes!

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post #8604 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 07:55 AM
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Thanks Maikel - so if the trig calculator I’ve used is correct, that puts the speaker between 1300mm and 3000mm from a seated listener (800mm ear height). For many people that means the speakers will be somewhere in the middle of the floor?

Yep, to rest your feet on...

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post #8605 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 12:58 PM
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The market for 5.1.2 and 7.1.4 is really small; the 16 channels+ market is close to non existing

One would think, so I'm surprised at the number of mfgr's serving it - Trinnov, Storm, Harman group, Lyngdorf (or not, if you don't count their matrixed ch), Indy Audio, ATI/Monoprice, Emotiva...
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post #8606 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 04:44 PM
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One would think, so I'm surprised at the number of mfgr's serving it - Trinnov, Storm, Harman group, Lyngdorf (or not, if you don't count their matrixed ch), Indy Audio, ATI/Monoprice, Emotiva...
Don’t forget this is a global market too. Not just AVS as any kind of representative sample.

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post #8607 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Don’t forget this is a global market too. Not just AVS as any kind of representative sample.
What is the market? 10,000 units world wide to be split among all the players? I would be very surprised if it were that large.
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post #8608 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Don’t forget this is a global market too. Not just AVS as any kind of representative sample.

And yet that's what makes Disney's (and various other studios on more rare occasions) decisions as to their mixing and encoding practices for Atmos particularly galling.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #8609 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The Trinnov 3D microphone has a specification of +/- 2° I believe. Just get the bubble close... I've never actually used a bubble level on any job. I carry one with me, because why not..I carry everything else. There is minimal value in being that precise, especially if you aren't using Remapping.

There isn't anything acoustically or such "wrong" going on. It is just the numbers on the X axis haven't been adjusted yet. Your OmniMic measurements verify that everything is performing just how you want. I don't know if the latest release or upcoming public release fixes that or not, as I don't really pay too close attention to those graphs. I compare the first single mic computation to what my measurements say, verify what is going on in the Summary tab, making sure that I'm getting a good measurement from the Trinnov mic and it validates what I already know about the system.

I used to always look at the subwoofer graph at multiple seats to check seat-to-seat consistency and help with measurement weighting decisions, but my current measurement rig gives me much more information, so I use that primarily.
I started over using the built in preset and it at least allows me to control all the way to 10Hz so I assume it will fix the other stuff as well. I will find out mañana. It was so broken that even a flat LFE target curve would totally screw up the LFE response.

What is the latest "official" release?
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post #8610 of 9390 Old 09-02-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
What is the latest "official" release?
4.2.8.2 off the top of my head.

The public release of what you guys running RC versions have should be very soon.

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