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post #8671 of 9272 Old 09-05-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
This is because you display 20-20.000Hz; try selecting 10-300Hz instead (x-setting at the lower right part of screen).
Thanks. Amazing, flat response to 10Hz. I’m loving it....
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post #8672 of 9272 Old 09-05-2019, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Not exactly. With less than ideal placement, you can often get good results from a standard speaker layout IF the speakers aren't too far from ideal.
...

Where an extra speaker comes in handy is for specific purposes, such as having a center speaker below an OLED TV or a non-AT screen (NOT a recommended approach if you can help it) and another speaker, call it the "center height", physically located above the TV/screen. You could create a two-way active speaker with that "center height" creating a phantom image from the two speakers as if there were a single speaker for content where there was no legal center height (e.g. Atmos), or use 3D Remapping.
...
However, you can't just add more speakers into the room just to use 3D Remapping with better resolution. They still require placement that's beneficial for the purpose.
Thanks for the detailed reply. The "2" center channels (one below and one above the screen) have always something I wanted to try due to my (current) inability to get an acoustic transparent screen and place LCRs behind it.

anyway it seems to me that currently the sweet spot in channel number with the Altitude is 24 unless you make use of a lot channels for active crossovers...
still if you look at lates demos at ISE or CEDIA they sure make good use of all the channels available

thanks again for all the clarifications !

have a nice day,

Ben
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post #8673 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Thanks for the detailed reply. The "2" center channels (one below and one above the screen) have always something I wanted to try due to my (current) inability to get an acoustic transparent screen and place LCRs behind it.

anyway it seems to me that currently the sweet spot in channel number with the Altitude is 24 unless you make use of a lot channels for active crossovers...
still if you look at lates demos at ISE or CEDIA they sure make good use of all the channels available

thanks again for all the clarifications !

have a nice day,

Ben
Sure, the demos make use of all of the channels, but that RARELY occurs when purchasing movies. In fact, the issue seems to be getting no better. If money is no object, then the more speakers, the merrier. And on that incredibly rare occasion, all of your speakers will get utilized. But practically, the “sweet spot” is not 24, but 7.x.6.

I could go do the math if I were so inclined but if 5% of my 3D audio movies used more than 7.x.4 I would be flabbergasted!!

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8674 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
@appelz

Which of the following two setups do you think is better?

1. 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude16 (leaves one free output on the Altitude16 for the subwoofer) + DSP for multiple subwoofers such as the QSC Core 110f. Speakers managed by the Altitude16 and subwoofers managed by the QSC Core 110f.

2. 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32 16-24. All speakers and subwoofers managed by the Altitude32.

Basically, what I am trying to get at is, is it better to have a DSP to manage/correct the subwoofers over just relying on the Altitude? Do you gain any added "functionality" or "control" (in terms of fine tuning or adjustments) when adding a nice DSP for the subwoofers?

Lastly, what is your preferred DSP? In a previous post in this thread (maybe a year ago), you stated that the QSC Core 110f was your go-to DSP. Is that still true?
Anyone care to fill me in on the above quoted questions? I tagged applez but didn't receive a response from him. Maybe he missed the post.
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post #8675 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 05:43 AM
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Anyone care to fill me in on the above quoted questions? I tagged applez but didn't receive a response from him. Maybe he missed the post.
Is this something you are planning on doing any time real,soon or are these just rhetorical questions?

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8676 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 05:45 AM
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Is this something you are planning on doing any time real,soon or are these just rhetorical questions?
For now they are rhetorical questions.
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post #8677 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Sure, the demos make use of all of the channels, but that RARELY occurs when purchasing movies. In fact, the issue seems to be getting no better. If money is no object, then the more speakers, the merrier. And on that incredibly rare occasion, all of your speakers will get utilized. But practically, the “sweet spot” is not 24, but 7.x.6.

I could go do the math if I were so inclined but if 5% of my 3D audio movies used more than 7.x.4 I would be flabbergasted!!
That 7.x.6 may be less “sweet” once DTS:X Pro is released, and we can upmix legacy 2D audio and DTS:X content to support all channels in the DTS layout we have. But certainly the 7.x.4 to 7.x.6 or 9.x.4 space is a conventional "sweet spot" for Atmos, if utility (bang for the buck) were the sole concern. But even in that case, since some Atmos mixes seem to put the static stereo overheads in the top middle, it's debatable if you really want the .6 to be TF/TM/TR (which could be FH/TM/RH as well) or just do .4 and do a center height/VOG, where that top middle would get split between the front and rear height-level channels. Or go to a .8 setup, but that primarily makes sense in a multi-row, multi-HT theatre.

Having said that, I don’t completely agree about the rare occurence, more like “less frequently than I’d like”. Also, how would you define “used more than 7.x.4”?

If you mean “enough to notice” on my > 7.x.4 layout, for Atmos mixes I’d say maybe (???) 25% to 30% of my own content, but a lot of times I only know from input meter watching. Which may be the point, considering that any floor-level speakers beyond 7.1 are “presence speakers” and part of the mix that works on conjunction with the bed speakers and overheads.

On the other hand, if you mean beyond 7.x.4 being “used all the time” without the trick of just making bed content “bigger” by spreading out side surrounds to, say, wides at a reduced level in an Atmos mix (think parts of Red Sparrow), then maybe 10% is closer to the truth.

We can agree that the whole > 7.1.4 state of the industry is mix dependent and most of all, your enjoyment (or lack of) depends on just what you're watching.

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post #8678 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Anyone care to fill me in on the above quoted questions? I tagged applez but didn't receive a response from him. Maybe he missed the post.
in my experience I've been very pleased with 1ch of the Altitude for sub and external (in my case MiniDsp8x10) DSP to manage multiple subs.
I have phoneix connectors on my MiniDsp but all the other DSP boxes (QSC, XILICA...) were much more expensive
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post #8679 of 9272 Old 09-06-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That 7.x.6 may be less “sweet” once DTS:X Pro is released, and we can upmix legacy 2D audio and DTS:X content to support all channels in the DTS layout we have. But certainly the 7.x.4 to 7.x.6 or 9.x.4 space is a conventional "sweet spot" for Atmos, if utility (bang for the buck) were the sole concern. But even in that case, since some Atmos mixes seem to put the static stereo overheads in the top middle, it's debatable if you really want the .6 to be TF/TM/TR (which could be FH/TM/RH as well) or just do .4 and do a center height/VOG, where that top middle would get split between the front and rear height-level channels. Or go to a .8 setup, but that primarily makes sense in a multi-row, multi-HT theatre.

Having said that, I don’t completely agree about the rare occurence, more like “less frequently than I’d like”. Also, how would you define “used more than 7.x.4”?

If you mean “enough to notice” on my > 7.x.4 layout, for Atmos mixes I’d say maybe (???) 25% to 30% of my own content, but a lot of times I only know from input meter watching. Which may be the point, considering that any floor-level speakers beyond 7.1 are “presence speakers” and part of the mix that works on conjunction with the bed speakers and overheads.

On the other hand, if you mean beyond 7.x.4 being “used all the time” without the trick of just making bed content “bigger” by spreading out side surrounds to, say, wides at a reduced level in an Atmos mix (think parts of Red Sparrow), then maybe 10% is closer to the truth.

We can agree that the whole > 7.1.4 state of the industry is mix dependent and most of all, your enjoyment (or lack of) depends on just what you're watching.
I wasn't referring to up-mixing when I suggested 7.x.6 was the sweet spot. And you must purchase different movies than I do. I could do the specific research (but won't spend the time) and find out how many Atmos movies use greater than 7.x.4 speakers, but I would be amazed if it got even close to 10%. But whether it is 3%, 5%, 12% does change my position. I am happy I have more than 7.x.4 and as I noted previously, if money were no object, I would have lots more channels. But my belief is that 7.x.4 or 7.x.6 or ... is still the sweet spot. So in this case, we can agree to disagree. It is just my OPINION.

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post #8680 of 9272 Old 09-07-2019, 02:58 PM
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I have actually lately disabled the remapping for the front speakers; since they are close to perfect positioned - the sound quality is actually slightly better without remapping on these channels. This flexibility is great; I can disable remapping on the perfectly positioned front speakers but still use remapping for the surrounds (which have different optimal position based on format).
I am having good results with this as well. Never liked remapping the mains but works well for my surrounds given that they are positioned to accommodate both Auro and Atmos.
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post #8681 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 12:56 AM
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Is there a concensus about remapping affecting sound quality?

I can’t say that I agree with @Berland , I wonder if I should be performing a blind test to decide.
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post #8682 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 05:20 AM
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Is there a concensus about remapping affecting sound quality?

I can’t say that I agree with @Berland , I wonder if I should be performing a blind test to decide.
Blind testing is a GREAT idea. Have your wife enable or disable it without you knowing what she has selected.

In my room, it does nothing as all of my speakers are very close to Dolby recommended positions. That said, I must admit I have not tried it using the Auro up-mixer for 2 channel music

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Blind testing is a GREAT idea. Have your wife enable or disable it without you knowing what she has selected.

In my room, it does nothing as all of my speakers are very close to Dolby recommended positions. That said, I must admit I have not tried it using the Auro up-mixer for 2 channel music
I won’t give any promises about the blind testing. I hope that It has already been done by someone.

Since I bought the Altitude, I always use Auro upmixing for 2 channel music.
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post #8684 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Blind testing is a GREAT idea. Have your wife enable or disable it without you knowing what she has selected.

In my room, it does nothing as all of my speakers are very close to Dolby recommended positions. That said, I must admit I have not tried it using the Auro up-mixer for 2 channel music
The difference between enabling and disabling remapping on the front speakers (set within mm accuracy) is not big, but slightly better without remapping enabled. Remapping is still processing. I think the best way to check is to enable/disable remapping and hear for yourself. I expected the one with remapping enabled to be best, so this came as a slight surprise to me.

How does everyone feel about the 4.2.11; are people happy with the new update?

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post #8685 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 08:11 AM
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I won’t give any promises about the blind testing. I hope that It has already been done by someone.

Since I bought the Altitude, I always use Auro upmixing for 2 channel music.
If you are going to do simple AB testing, make sure and set it to "Lite Mode". This will allow much quicker transitions between settings.
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post #8686 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 08:12 AM
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Since I bought the Altitude, I always use Auro upmixing for 2 channel music.
As do I. Setup properly, it makes regular 2 channel sound flat and dull.
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Since I bought the Altitude, I always use Auro upmixing for 2 channel music.
I did the same before; after getting the B&W 802D3's - normal stereo (native=no upmix) sound best. With the B&W 803D2 I preferred Auro3D upmix for 2 channel music. The 803D2 speakers are now moved to surround duty.

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post #8688 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
The difference between enabling and disabling remapping on the front speakers (set within mm accuracy) is not big, but slightly better without remapping enabled. Remapping is still processing. I think the best way to check is to enable/disable remapping and hear for yourself. I expected the one with remapping enabled to be best, so this came as a slight surprise to me.

How does everyone feel about the 4.2.11; are people happy with the new update?
This is purely a hypothesis, but I also wonder if the latest software update with the differential octave resolution for IIR vs. FIR may change how useful 3D remapping will be.

I noticed that in my room - last night, I turned remapping off after setting the FIR setting to 1/3 octave resolution, and actually found I liked the results more across the board without 3D remapping than using it. I had a better sense of immersion around the room and a also more precise soundstage, especially in the L/R triangle to MLP, on my multichannel content without remapping than with it. And as you know, I've been a proponent of it for less than perfect placement, but still within the Dolby spec angle ranges (the idea being that having even mild adjustment to ideal positioning added sonic information and accounted for any subtle electronic impact on elevation). I may rethink that.

I did look briefly at just having remapping off on the fronts, and can't say it was an improvement.

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post #8689 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 04:17 PM
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Watched Aladdin (2019) from Disney today on UHD blu-ray. I prefer the old animated version from 1992, but I must say - audio was fantastic on the 2019 version - even using all my speakers for atmos (9.2.9, except for Ctf). Seems like Disney moves away from the hard-coded 7.1.4 mixes finally).

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post #8690 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 04:43 PM
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Watched Aladdin (2019) from Disney today on UHD blu-ray. I prefer the old animated version from 1992, but I must say - audio was fantastic on the 2019 version - even using all my speakers for atmos (9.2.9, except for Ctf). Seems like Disney moves away from the hard-coded 7.1.4 mixes finally).
Upmixer was off?
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Upmixer was off?
No upmix on Atmos

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post #8692 of 9272 Old 09-08-2019, 06:18 PM
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No upmix on Atmos

And no speaker duplication/mapping either?

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #8693 of 9272 Old 09-09-2019, 02:27 AM
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And no speaker duplication/mapping either?
No, everything normal. The movie utilize all atmos channels (not all the time of course; but when needed).
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post #8694 of 9272 Old 09-09-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I wasn't referring to up-mixing when I suggested 7.x.6 was the sweet spot. And you must purchase different movies than I do. I could do the specific research (but won't spend the time) and find out how many Atmos movies use greater than 7.x.4 speakers, but I would be amazed if it got even close to 10%. But whether it is 3%, 5%, 12% does change my position. I am happy I have more than 7.x.4 and as I noted previously, if money were no object, I would have lots more channels. But my belief is that 7.x.4 or 7.x.6 or ... is still the sweet spot. So in this case, we can agree to disagree. It is just my OPINION.
I would not necessarily disagree if you are designing for today’s SOTA (pre-DTS:X Pro). When I did my 11.4.10 design I was banking on further improvements in the Codecs, mixing, and up mixers. This will already be paying off with DTS:X Pro. It may take a few years but I believe we will continue to see improvements in these areas.
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post #8695 of 9272 Old 09-09-2019, 10:48 PM
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Immersive soundtrack 2.5, unfortunately they nailed that review.
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post #8696 of 9272 Old 09-10-2019, 05:31 AM
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^^
More confirmation that our Altitudes really do show what's going on. I commend WSR's reviewing staff for being objective & better able to hear those subtle & not-so-subtle differences between mixes.
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post #8697 of 9272 Old 09-10-2019, 10:41 AM
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Hi guys,
I wanted to ask a question:
I have 7.2.4 goldenear system and i am using marantz av8805 ,
Can someone explain to me the difference in sound that i will get if i changed to trinnov , i need someone who experienced this change to explain to me because where i live there is no way to have demos , all i know is what i read in forums...

Thanx
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post #8698 of 9272 Old 09-10-2019, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Hi guys,
I wanted to ask a question:
I have 7.2.4 goldenear system and i am using marantz av8805 ,
Can someone explain to me the difference in sound that i will get if i changed to trinnov , i need someone who experienced this change to explain to me because where i live there is no way to have demos , all i know is what i read in forums...

Thanx
The 8805 is refined, easy to set up, and light on the pocket book. It gets the job done as long long as you are comfortable with what audyssey does for bass management and you don't want to expand beyond 9.1.4. The Trinnov allows expansion to 9.1.6 or beyond, and has a sophisticated room correction suite and precise 3d microphone. The 2 are in different classes entirely. As far as sound quality is concerned, I discarded the 8805 in order to upgrade to 9.1.6 with the emotiva rmc-1. I found the emotiva to noticeably sound better than the 8805. I am now using the SDP-75 and find it wonderful.

If you like the way the 8805 sounds, I am sure you will be thrilled with the Trinnov. I assume you know there as an element of diminishing returns on high end gear. Yes, the Trinnov will sound better. How much better is up for debate. Only you can determine if the cost justifies the upgrade.

The best thing is to hear it. I traveled prior to upgrading in order to hear the Trinnov in action, and considering the price tag, it may worth it for you to do the same.

Good luck!

For sale: 2 Mackie c300z speakers, Tag Mclaren av32r preamplifier
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post #8699 of 9272 Old 09-10-2019, 11:35 AM
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Thank you man ,
To be honest im not satisfied with a audyssey at all i turn it off all the time,
I use emotiva xpa-5 and xpa-7 ,
So you are saying the difference in sound is big , can you give details and will i need to change the amps and if so what is good option to go with the trinnov ?
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post #8700 of 9272 Old 09-10-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Hi guys,
I wanted to ask a question:
I have 7.2.4 goldenear system and i am using marantz av8805 ,
Can someone explain to me the difference in sound that i will get if i changed to trinnov , i need someone who experienced this change to explain to me because where i live there is no way to have demos , all i know is what i read in forums...

Thanx
I think GE is using Trinnov this year at CEDIA
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