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post #8731 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Just so there is no confusion on my position:

- If money were no object, I would max out the number of speakers on an Altitude 32

- I am not saying more speakers is not "better"

- If your analysis shows that 100% of your Atmos collection uses lots more than 7.x.4 speakers, my position of the "sweet spot" still doesn't change. My definition of "sweet spot" is that at 7.x.4, we are at the point of massively diminishing returns. See the following chart. Each person gets to move the "X" along the scale as they see fit. But based upon what I hear in my room, have heard in other rooms and have heard in higher speaker count rooms, 7.x.4 is the "sweet spot" winner.



Clearly, YMMV. If 7.x.4 is not your "sweet spot", then, in your opinion, what is? What position along that curve is the "best bang for the buck" - which is my definition of the "sweet spot"?

And I need to add one very important point. My selection of 7.x.4 assumes all speakers are properly placed, all ear level speakers have identical tweeter and midrange drivers, all are properly angled AND all are placed in a properly acoustically treated space. Otherwise, all bets are off.

Every Trinnov demo I've been at that played a QUALITY mixed and encoded (no print-outs) Dolby Atmos track sounded MUCH better with a greater than 7.1.4 layout. Every single one. 7.1.4 IMHO is the absolute bare minimum required for Dolby Atmos. You gain so much more with a precision 3D sound field and you GAIN that with more speakers. The tracks really start to come alive and seem more exciting and enveloping than playing back basically with just four more overheads than a standard home theater setup. More activity happens around the room than above in almost all Atmos tracks anyway.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #8732 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 10:28 AM
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how do you guys compare the emotiva rmc-1 to the Altitude16 :

My system is 9.2.4 golden ear speakers and pb16 subs.

1- both without room correction.
2- both with only automatic room correction.
3- both professionally corrected .
4- are there differences in sonics because of hardware or Dacs.

Thanks alot...
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post #8733 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
[
Every Trinnov demo I've been at that played a QUALITY mixed and encoded (no print-outs) Dolby Atmos track sounded MUCH better with a greater than 7.1.4 layout. Every single one. 7.1.4 IMHO is the absolute bare minimum required for Dolby Atmos. You gain so much more with a precision 3D sound field and you GAIN that with more speakers. The tracks really start to come alive and seem more exciting and enveloping than playing back basically with just four more overheads than a standard home theater setup. More activity happens around the room than above in almost all Atmos tracks anyway.
Fair enough. But based upon your opinion, what speaker configuration provides the best bang for the buck - and not just the best bang. Of course 32 speakers is better than 16, but best bang for the buck? Not hardly!

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8734 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Fair enough. But based upon your opinion, what speaker configuration provides the best bang for the buck - and not just the best bang. Of course 32 speakers is better than 16, but best bang for the buck? Not hardly!

I would say 11.4.8 is a pretty good sweet spot IMHO.


Four subs (at least) for helping balance the peaks and nulls in the room and the fact that you have a nice array of side surrounds (Front Wides, Side Surround Main, and Side Surround 1) for at least two rows of seating. Plus the fact that with 6 overhead speakers, certain home Atmos mixes act kind of funky with the consumer object renderer and can bunch up overhead audio in the Top Middle pair because the studio sound engineers creating near field mixes don't often set the metadata of the two fixed objects acting as the overhead bed channels to spread across the full array of overhead speakers (that's based on object sizing parameters in the Atmos mixing software). When you have pairs of 4 overheads, the renderer seems to try and phantom out the Top Middle information, and array the sound anyway.



13.4.8 would be great for theaters with larger than average screens that could fit the LC and RC extra screen speakers.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

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post #8735 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
.... because the studio sound engineers creating near field mixes don't often set the metadata of the two fixed objects acting as the overhead bed channels to spread across the full array of overhead speakers (that's based on object sizing parameters in the Atmos mixing software).

Umm.... no

Bed channels are channels, not objects.

There is no metadata to set, so object size is irrelevant to this discussion.




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post #8736 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I would say 11.4.8 is a pretty good sweet spot IMHO.
I left subs out of my comments. I have eight F18's.

So to get to your "sweet spot" I need to buy (if I were at 7.x.4) another 8 channel amp (in my case another ~$4500), upgrade to an Altitude 32-24+ (another ~$13,000), and buy 8 more speakers (in my case ~$12,000 in order to match tweeters and midrange drivers - one of my requriements). So for an additional $30,000, how much more immersive will it be?
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8737 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
how do you guys compare the emotiva rmc-1 to the Altitude16 :

My system is 9.2.4 golden ear speakers and pb16 subs.

1- both without room correction.
2- both with only automatic room correction.
3- both professionally corrected .
4- are there differences in sonics because of hardware or Dacs.

Thanks alot...
This will be like comparing apples to semi-trucks

1. The Trinnov has been successfully deploying their product for 5+ years. Emotive has yet to deploy an RMC-1 with all of its features

2. No one would spend $17,000 for a Trinnov and not use room correction

3. The measured speaker delays of the Trinnov are spot on. No other processor (including the $25,000 Datasat RS20i) comes close and what you hear as a result of that is a far more integrated and immersive sound field.

4. The gazillions of options inside the Trinnov provide the calibrator abilities to get the sonics better than any other processor on the planet. No other processor has those options

5. Trinnov continues to provide important updates to the firmware to further improve it. Coming up soon: DTS:X Pro

6. I could go on but there is simply ZERO comparison.

No offense, but of all of the options you could select to compare to the Trinnov, the almost non existent RMC-1 would be the worst choice.
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8738 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Umm.... no

Bed channels are channels, not objects.

There is no metadata to set, so object size is irrelevant to this discussion.




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Are the height channels available as beds in the home version of Atmos?
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post #8739 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Are the height channels available as beds in the home version of Atmos?

Hone Atmos Spatial coding deals with the room as a 3D space... so if you use bed channel OHs when mixing they will get encoded up top.
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post #8740 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
This will be like comparing apples to semi-trucks



1. The Trinnov has been successfully deploying their product for 5+ years. Emotive has yet to deploy an RMC-1 with all of its features



2. No one would spend $17,000 for a Trinnov and not use room correction



3. The measured speaker delays of the Trinnov are spot on. No other processor (including the $25,000 Datasat RS20i) comes close and what you hear as a result of that is a far more integrated and immersive sound field.



4. The gazillions of options inside the Trinnov provide the calibrator abilities to get the sonics better than any other processor on the planet. No other processor has those options



5. Trinnov continues to provide important updates to the firmware to further improve it. Coming up soon: DTS:X Pro



6. I could go on but there is simply ZERO comparison.



No offense, but of all of the options you could select to compare to the Trinnov, the almost non existent RMC-1 would be the worst choice.


Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx


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post #8741 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Umm.... no

Bed channels are channels, not objects.

There is no metadata to set, so object size is irrelevant to this discussion.




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But what about the fact that some (all?) theatrical mixes have two overhead bed channels? The home version obviously doesn't because TrueHD has a max of 7.1 channels (not 9.1), but then how do you recreate them? And if the home mix doesn't then you run into problems with >7.1.4 Atmos setups (becoming more and more popular as apparent if you went to the CEDIA Expo like I did) where those particular two objects won't array (or aren't set to array) as the overhead bed channels do in the cinema.


The theatrical mix has then been altered when larger home Atmos theaters are trying to recreate the cinema experience... are they not?

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 09-16-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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post #8742 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:15 PM
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But what about the fact that some (all?) theatrical mixes have two overhead bed channels? The home version obviously doesn't because TrueHD has a max of 7.1 channels (not 9.1), but then how do you recreate them? And if the home mix doesn't then you run into problems with >7.1.4 Atmos setups (becoming more and more popular as apparent if you went to the CEDIA Expo like I did) where those particular two objects won't array (or aren't set to array) as the overhead bed channels do in the cinema.

The theatrical mix has then been altered when larger home Atmos theaters are trying to recreate the cinema experience... are they not?

Home Atmos also doesn’t have 118 objects... so pointing out that the bed is seven channels doesn’t matter.

If there is sound overhead, the encoder will put that audio sounds into spatially coded “clusters....”.

You don’t simply have the separate objects and OH channels anymore.... that’s how you get from 118 > 12-16. Spatial coding separates the room into “zones” and encodes from there... it’s irrelevant if the audio was from a bed OH channel or an object originally ...
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post #8743 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Home Atmos also doesn’t have 118 objects... so pointing out that the bed is seven channels doesn’t matter.

If there is sound overhead, the encoder will put that audio sounds into spatially coded “clusters....”.

You don’t simply have the separate objects and OH channels anymore.... that’s how you get from 118 > 12-16. Spatial coding separates the room into “zones” and encodes from there... it’s irrelevant if the audio was from a bed OH channel or an object originally ...
Sorry, I’m still not following. So if the theatrical mix has bed channels in the heights, then will that result in sound from all 10 Home Atmos height channels? Regarding the ‘clusters’ you mention, that the theatrical height bed channels are broken down into by the spacial encoding - are they seen by the Home Atmos decoder are objects? If so, how many objects would be used up in that process of covering all 10 height channels?
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post #8744 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:29 PM
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Trinnov Altitude

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I assume your room is “properly” treated with absorption and dispersion panels? This is a critical first step. I have owned the Datasat LS10 and now own the Marantz 8805 and find that my theater sounds best without Dirac or Audyssey processing.

I would like to try the Trinnov but my acoustic engineer switched from Datasat to Trinnov (but also switched from Procella to JBL synthesis speakers at the same time) and he prefers the Datasat and Procella sound. It’s an expensive “test buy” to try out a new processor. I think my Marantz sounds pretty great but not sure what I am missing by not having a Trinnov. I will likely buy one but I am waiting to something “big” from Trinnov. Dirac 2.0 is coming and that interests me as well. Heck the new Monoprice processor will include Dirac for $4,000 but I wonder about reliability and support from Monoprice.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420

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post #8745 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My advice would be to discard the 8805 and get the rmc-1 once the emotiva rmc-1 thread confirms it has been ironed out of bugs. I kid you not. The sonic improvement on the rmc-1 was noticeable, and out of the box sounded better than the 8805 with or without room correction. Emotiva offers a 30 day money back guatantee. Test it out for yourself before taking the quantum leap to the price of a Trinnov.

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post #8746 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx
I think it can be done remotely with some compromises I'm sure (Contact Adam Pelz or Curt Hoyt and get their advice).I would second the suggestion to insure your room is properly acoustically treated.

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8747 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Home Atmos also doesn’t have 118 objects... so pointing out that the bed is seven channels doesn’t matter.

If there is sound overhead, the encoder will put that audio sounds into spatially coded “clusters....”.

You don’t simply have the separate objects and OH channels anymore.... that’s how you get from 118 > 12-16. Spatial coding separates the room into “zones” and encodes from there... it’s irrelevant if the audio was from a bed OH channel or an object originally ...

Interesting.


So, how would one compensate for overhead bed channels with a home Atmos format that doesn't "respond" the same way as the commercial version... and still get at least similar sonic results given that you have at least 10 overhead arrayed speakers in the home version (given a non print-out encoding)?


I guess one could also wonder about the surround bed channels given that they too don't array (or at least not yet) in any >7.1.4 processor other than Dolby's own cinema processor?


Yes, I'm picky. I like to drill down into the specifics.


And as always, really appreciate your time and expertise.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 09-16-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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post #8748 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If u will get it from GR media in Dubai u should ask for calibration service it’s not like Adam do of course but with trinnov the sound Q are outstanding but as chuck say passive acoustic treatment is must to get the best of ur setup


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post #8749 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I left subs out of my comments. I have eight F18's.

So to get to your "sweet spot" I need to buy (if I were at 7.x.4) another 8 channel amp (in my case another ~$4500), upgrade to an Altitude 32-24+ (another ~$13,000), and buy 8 more speakers (in my case ~$12,000 in order to match tweeters and midrange drivers - one of my requriements). So for an additional $30,000, how much more immersive will it be?
We'll be happy to spend your money, Chuck. What are hobbyist friends for?

Seriously, we may also be caught in terminology. I think we both would agree that for 3D audio with Atmos or DTS:X, 7.x.4 is a minimal prerequisite unless you have a room that's so small that you can only do 5.x.4 with one pair of surrounds. Maybe what I think of as "sufficient" is what you call "sweet spot", which to me implies optimality.

Anyway, from my POV you don't so much lose content (something you're not hearing) with 7.x.4 vs. 13.x.8 as hear a particular Atmos mix with well-defined object passthrough as having more realistic - precision, a higher sense of dimensionality of physical presence - sound with higher channel count. If that's diminishing returns, so be it, but I could say the same thing about a 5.1 mix in native mode vs. one using speaker arrays, or upmixed with a high quality upmixer that doesn't destroy the soundstage. I just think it's better when it's possible.

Take these two Atmos examples: the movie Oblivion's scene in the giant cave with blast doors where Tom Cruise and the resistance are holed up, and the TET is sending a pod to exterminate them. With two pairs of side surrounds, I hear the pod moving inside my room between my wides, front side surrounds and bed side surrounds and vibrating subtly before Morgan Freeman's assistant shoots it down (if memory serves). That effect is exciting and helps to bring me inside the scene. Without the front sides it's more subdued. Or War for the Planet of the Apes, where in a battle scene, ape cries that stay within the center pan more from left to right using Lc/Rc when I tested with 11.x.6 (no Lc/Rc) vs. 13.x.6 (with Lc/Rc). And it's distinct from what I heard from the mains, that is inside the screen vs. just on the edges or just outside the screen with mains, from about 11 feet from the screen.

The question is cost, of course. Is it worth it? Only your wallet and your ears will know for sure. I didn't spend more than $500 to get my timbre matched Lc/Rc bookshelves as presence speakers for my own speaker manufacturer, and I had the available channels open. I wouldn't buy new amps and upgrade from an Altitude 16 to a 32 just to get that effect. But if it's possible for someone, I'd say at least think about it.

As for massive improvement, well, I know at least one guy (hint: he's from the UK, has a giant ear in his AVS avatar, and is allergic to Emotiva pre-pros ) that spent over $60K on his room and insists on staying with a Marantz, a MiniDSP running Dirac, and 7.1.4, no matter than he could easily afford a Trinnov setup and actually use his wides and top middles that he installed and wired but doesn't have connected to a processor that can render them. All is relative.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
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Last edited by sdrucker; 09-16-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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post #8750 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
Non taken ,
I have marantz 8805 and i don’t like the sound with Audessey at all , i tried multiple calibrations, even changed the mic with no luck,

So all I’m doing is trying to find the best alternative and i have no way to listen to any gear here , because i live in Saudi Arabia and our hobby is almost non existent here , couldn’t find any professional calibrator also , man its a struggle here....

All i know is what you guys tell me ...

I m afraid that i buy the next pre-amp and spend a-lot of money then get same results ,

By the way since we don’t have professional calibration here will it be enough to use trinnov auto calibration, or do you advice me to use remote calibration ?

Thanx


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I have to reiterate that no processor is going to sound good in a room without acoustic panels to absorb higher frequencies. What are the dimensions of your theater and do you have tile floors, hard walls and ceiling with no fiberglass (or other material) absorbers?

Also you can tell Audyssey to only process frequencies below about 500Hz with the Audyssey app for iPad / iPhone. This helps immensely and if you don’t do this it will sound very harsh in my experience.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #8751 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
We'll be happy to spend your money, Chuck. What are hobbyist friends for?

Seriously, we may also be caught in terminology. I think we both would agree that for 3D audio with Atmos or DTS:X, 7.x.4 is a minimal prerequisite unless you have a room that's so small that you can only do 5.x.4 with one pair of surrounds. Maybe what I think of as "sufficient" is what you call "sweet spot", which to me implies optimality.
Without being able to compare multiple speaker configurations along with multiple high speaker count movies, I don't know how one would determine what the right number actually is


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Take these two Atmos examples: the movie Oblivion's scene in the giant cave with blast doors where Tom Cruise and the resistance are holed up, and the TET is sending a pod to exterminate them. With two pairs of side surrounds, I hear the pod moving inside my room between my wides, front side surrounds and bed side surrounds and vibrating subtly before Morgan Freeman's assistant shoots it down (if memory serves). That effect is exciting and helps to bring me inside the scene. Without the front sides it's more subdued
. I will have to re-watch that segment.

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The question is cost, of course. Is it worth it? Only your wallet and your ears will know for sure. I didn't spend more than $500 to get my timbre matched Lc/Rc bookshelves as presence speakers for my own speaker manufacturer, and I had the available channels open. I wouldn't buy new amps and upgrade from an Altitude 16 to a 32 just to get that effect. But if it's possible for someone, I'd say at least think about it.

As for massive improvement, well, I know at least one guy (hint: he's from the UK, has a giant ear in his AVS avatar, and is allergic to Emotiva pre-pros ) that spent over $60K on his room and insists on staying with a Marantz, a MiniDSP running Dirac, and 7.1.4, no matter than he could easily afford a Trinnov setup and actually use his wides and top middles that he installed and wired but doesn't have connected to a processor that can render them. All is relative.
Well, the "EAR man" may be onto something. Dirac is sure better than Audyssey - by a long shot. And I would be considered allergic to Emotiva pre-pros as well. For as good as value as their amps are, Emotive can't seem to get out of their own way when it comes to pre-pros. And as I have stated ad nauseam, 7.x.4, well done, is very immersive.

I've decided to invite myself to Adam's Lab 2.0 when he finishes it in ~2025 (if he ever stays home long enough to get any work done). (I have yet to tell him that)Then we can set up Presets with 7.x.4 all the way up to however many speakers he has and do some blind comparisons. Nashville is only about 4 hours or so from me and while I have been there numerous times on business, never have been there for pleasure. By that time, DTS:X Pro will be operational and more high count Atmos releases should be available. Then I can decide if "X" is where it belongs or maybe it needs to move east a bit. Unlike the modified chart that Wookii did , where it was a flat line, I do believe that there is improvement as you go east. Who knows, maybe MY right answer is 7.x.6 or 7.x.8 or some other combination.

I also think that part of the reason the front half of my room is so immersive (in addition to the passive room treatment) is because my L&R are not behind the screen, as is my center. So the distance to my side surrounds is greatly reduced and hence I really get excellent imaging where my wides are. Given what I now hear, I might have been better off forgoing wides and doing 7.x.8.

Assuming I decide, in the future, to add more speakers, I'm not sure in what order I would add them. I guess my visit to Adam would help me answer that.

Here is what I am sure we agree on. The Trinnov is the best processor on the planet (and the only guy I can think of who would disagree with that is still in love with his Theta CB)
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Originally Posted by fuadkamel View Post
how do you guys compare the emotiva rmc-1 to the Altitude16 :

My system is 9.2.4 golden ear speakers and pb16 subs.

1- both without room correction.
2- both with only automatic room correction.
3- both professionally corrected .
4- are there differences in sonics because of hardware or Dacs.

Thanks alot...
My system was 7.2 GoldenEar (now 7.2.4) with sb16 subs, when I was using an Emotiva XMC-1, and I was happy with my setup.
Some similarities with your hypothetical question.

When I got the Trinnov the sound upgrade was shocking. It might be expectation bias, I don’t know for sure.

Of course the RMC is supposed to be better than the XMC, so I might not be helping you a lot.

The reason that I went for the Trinnov instead of the Emotiva , was that the RMC-1 had bugs to start with, and Dirac wasn’t (still isn’t) implemented.
I haven’t regretted my decision, I truly believe it was money well spent.
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post #8753 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 05:19 PM
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I think it can be done remotely with some compromises I'm sure (Contact Adam Pelz or Curt Hoyt and get their advice).I would second the suggestion to insure your room is properly acoustically treated.
Yes , the room is carpeted and treated with gik acoustics panels and bass traps .
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post #8754 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 05:37 PM
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Yes , the room is carpeted and treated with gik acoustics panels and bass traps .
Nice to see another person from the Middle East here. I am located in Dubai.

People like us are really hard to come by in this region.
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post #8755 of 9272 Old 09-16-2019, 11:41 PM
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I assume your room is “properly” treated with absorption and dispersion panels? This is a critical first step. I have owned the Datasat LS10 and now own the Marantz 8805 and find that my theater sounds best without Dirac or Audyssey processing.

I would like to try the Trinnov but my acoustic engineer switched from Datasat to Trinnov (but also switched from Procella to JBL synthesis speakers at the same time) and he prefers the Datasat and Procella sound. It’s an expensive “test buy” to try out a new processor. I think my Marantz sounds pretty great but not sure what I am missing by not having a Trinnov. I will likely buy one but I am waiting to something “big” from Trinnov. Dirac 2.0 is coming and that interests me as well. Heck the new Monoprice processor will include Dirac for $4,000 but I wonder about reliability and support from Monoprice.


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I can understand your acoustician, I also chose Trinnov for StormAudio because I liked the sound of Storm better. I also want to buy Procella speakers and set up a digital chain.
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post #8756 of 9272 Old 09-17-2019, 01:54 AM
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Hone Atmos Spatial coding deals with the room as a 3D space... so if you use bed channel OHs when mixing they will get encoded up top.
Can you or anyone else point me to a home Atmos track (with scene or timestamp) where the original theatrical OH bed channels were encoded this way? I would like to check if in such case every (added) overhead pair gets the same signals ...

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #8757 of 9272 Old 09-17-2019, 02:59 AM
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Is the latest user manual for the Altitude32 from February 2017? That's the version I found online on Trinnov's site.
I'd assume with all the firmware updates it's out of date at least on some topics.

If you know of a more current version of the user manual that would be much appreciated.
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post #8758 of 9272 Old 09-17-2019, 03:06 AM
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...
The question is cost, of course. Is it worth it? Only your wallet and your ears will know for sure. I didn't spend more than $500 to get my timbre matched Lc/Rc bookshelves as presence speakers for my own speaker manufacturer, and I had the available channels open. I wouldn't buy new amps and upgrade from an Altitude 16 to a 32 just to get that effect... .
that is my dilemma at the moment ... I'm with @audioguy (my apologies I don't know your name :-) ) that I don't disagree that the more speakers might sounds more immersive and/or better... but is it worth the upgrade cost ?

Currently I own an Altitude32 with 16ch and I've been content with 9.x.6 but for a lot of reasons I had to move house (and country) and I ended up in selling almost everything from my old cinema.

What is left is my Altitude32(16ch), Lumagen Pro, Sony VW520ES, my 6 top speakers (goldenear supersat3)

Now I'm in a room which let's say is around 3.7mt wide and 4mt long and 2.5mt height.
I have my beloved 2ch setup with my Harbeth 40.2 40th anniversary (I'll never depart from them as they were a gift for my 40th birthday ) and all tube gear (Aqua La Scala MKII DAC, Manley NeoClassic 300B, PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HPx2).

Currently I'm debating whether is it worth to expand my altitude and have a lot of small speakers around the room (thinking about procella P5 and P1) or stick with what I've got and try to make the best out of it ?

My spirit, soul and heart are crying out for make use of what you have and just add couple of surround speakers ...
but my 'upgrade bug' is yelling at me ... go for it ... upgrade the altitude to 24ch and go for procella ...

I hope that my soul will be strong enough to resist and try to use my Harbeth 40.2 as LR and see what I can do in terms of surround

If I didn't have a 8 months old son, a wife and I was swimming in money than this wasn't a problem but my family needs to get priority ... and if you put in perspective with the equivalent money of an update to 24ch, amps, speakers ... i could easily but a dream holiday for the whole family

God bless you all,

Ben

P.S. sorry for the rant :-)
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post #8759 of 9272 Old 09-17-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I have owned the Datasat LS10 and now own the Marantz 8805 and find that my theater sounds best without Dirac or Audyssey processing.
I find it really perplexing that you did not like Dirac on the LS10. Given the flexibility of using PEQs, multiple crossover types and slopes, the ability to only correct, for example, to the Schroeder frequency, the ability to instantly compare various target curves and other functions, that you could not end up with results you were pleased with. (I get it that you didn't like Audyssey). I've calibrated quite a number of Datasat systems (both LS10s and RS20is), and in all cases, the improvement over the previous pre-pro (almost always Audyssey based) was simply breathtaking! And when compared to no Dirac, was night and day improvement. And these were all well treated rooms. I don't know who calibrated your LS10, but I hope they knew how to properly use external measurement tools, had a reasonable understanding of acoustics, and made use of all of the appropriate functionality of the various multitude LS10 capabilities

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I would like to try the Trinnov but my acoustic engineer switched from Datasat to Trinnov (but also switched from Procella to JBL synthesis speakers at the same time) and he prefers the Datasat and Procella sound. It’s an expensive “test buy” to try out a new processor. I think my Marantz sounds pretty great but not sure what I am missing by not having a Trinnov. I will likely buy one but I am waiting to something “big” from Trinnov. Dirac 2.0 is coming and that interests me as well. Heck the new Monoprice processor will include Dirac for $4,000 but I wonder about reliability and support from Monoprice.
If you didn't like the sound from Dirac on your LS10 (it sure sounds incredible in the guy's room you sold it to), then don't waste your time on another Dirac system. I am comfortable that none will provide the full complement of features that the LS10 did.

And if you go with a Trinnov, set aside enough money to pay to have it properly calibrated - or at least pay to have someone help you properly calibrate it.

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater Of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #8760 of 9272 Old 09-17-2019, 06:14 AM
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I find it really perplexing that you did not like Dirac on the LS10. Given the flexibility of using PEQs, multiple crossover types and slopes, the ability to only correct, for example, to the Schroeder frequency, the ability to instantly compare various target curves and other functions, that you could not end up with results you were pleased with. (I get it that you didn't like Audyssey). I've calibrated quite a number of Datasat systems (both LS10s and RS20is), and in all cases, the improvement over the previous pre-pro (almost always Audyssey based) was simply breathtaking! And when compared to no Dirac, was night and day improvement. And these were all well treated rooms. I don't know who calibrated your LS10, but I hope they knew how to properly use external measurement tools, had a reasonable understanding of acoustics, and made use of all of the appropriate functionality of the various multitude LS10 capabilities







If you didn't like the sound from Dirac on your LS10 (it sure sounds incredible in the guy's room you sold it to), then don't waste your time on another Dirac system. I am comfortable that none will provide the full complement of features that the LS10 did.



And if you go with a Trinnov, set aside enough money to pay to have it properly calibrated - or at least pay to have someone help you properly calibrate it.


Don’t get me wrong. I loved the sound of the Datasat and the flexibility it provided, especially the high resolution PEQ. I just did not like what Dirac did in my room. It was calibrated remotely and we ran into a few issues along the way so it’s possible that the calibration was not performed properly.



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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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