Trinnov Altitude - Page 298 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8911 of 9227 Old 09-25-2019, 03:10 PM
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Before spending a dime on a new processor (of any variety), call someone who knows what they are doing and get a passive room treatment designed and then install it.
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post #8912 of 9227 Old 09-25-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
Hi all I’ve now read the manual a few times and have played around with a few settings, including bass management.
Very happy with the sound. May look into the BEQ settings. I notice the Harry Potter blu Ray soundtracks also seem particularly bad (quiet and compressed?).
So far DTS tracks sound better and I have noticed are higher data rate. DTS neural processing is currently my default where possible.

Just a note. For optical disc almost 99% of the tracks are lossless. Meaning the codec itself has zero impact on the sound quality. What goes in must come out identically.

DTS encodes usually don’t have a dialog normalization offset, which means their tracks play louder for the most part....

So if a mix is better it’s better. Not the codec.

Regarding the bit rates.... the DTs codecs are all less efficient than their Dolby counterparts.

The higher bit rate is a result of that.
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post #8913 of 9227 Old 09-25-2019, 05:14 PM
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For example top gun blu Ray has a Dolby soundtrack and a DTS master soundtrack. I prefer the DTS (I appreciate in this case the DTS track may be less compressed).
What I meant though was the upmix option, I prefer DTX neural X over Dolby surround. It is the same data stream so the difference is presumably due to the codec. I don’t think it’s all due to a higher volume level. It may be the remapping in my room.
Atmos native mixes like john wick sound great too.
Interesting to know re the efficiency and bit rates.
I thought most movies have a DTS track because it was generally thought by directors to be better quality.
Any idea on changing the clock speed?
Thanks
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post #8914 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Before spending a dime on a new processor (of any variety), call someone who knows what they are doing and get a passive room treatment designed and then install it.
hello Audioguy if this comment was aimed at me well I do have already the altitude since 2015/2016 I don't quite remember.
of course in the past I had my dealer (very knowledgeable ) do the calibration and help me with acoustic treatments for the room.

My situation now is a bit changed, I can't hire somebody to perform the calibration/ setup speakers in right locations / install proper acoustic treatments.

That's the reason why I was asking for suggestion and/or approaches for my situation in order to get the best out of what I've got in the room I've got.

thanks for the help!

Have a nice day,

Ben
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post #8915 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
For example top gun blu Ray has a Dolby soundtrack and a DTS master soundtrack. I prefer the DTS (I appreciate in this case the DTS track may be less compressed).
What I meant though was the upmix option, I prefer DTX neural X over Dolby surround. It is the same data stream so the difference is presumably due to the codec. I don’t think it’s all due to a higher volume level. It may be the remapping in my room.
Atmos native mixes like john wick sound great too.
Interesting to know re the efficiency and bit rates.
I thought most movies have a DTS track because it was generally thought by directors to be better quality.
Any idea on changing the clock speed?
Thanks
The top gun sound track isn't comparing apples to apples here. It's not DTS vs Dolby digital. It's DTS-MA vs Dolby digital. The apples to apples comparison would be DTS-MA vs Dolby True HD. The AC3 sound track is just included for compatibility fallback in that case. Its almost like trying to compare the commentary track to the main for sound quality lol.
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post #8916 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I currently have an anthem and have been interested in moving to an altitude 16. I don't care about more than 7.x.4.

Some reasons that altitude is interesting to me are:
- Anthem has 1 sub output. I'd like ability to control crossovers separately for my shakers vs my subs. I think altitude will allow this, can anyone confirm?
- Anthem doesn't have that "double bass" feature that some AVR's have. I would use it (again for my shakers) mainly for my games preset. In other words, I'd have my fronts crossed over at say 60hz. The subs at 60hz. But then the shakers, which are sub #2 to the trinnov would be crossed over at 100hz and receiver all sounds from 0-100hz. Possible?
- One of my main features I use on anthem is virtual inputs. I read the trinnov manual and think it works the same. Basically, I can create an input, assign this input a physical HDMI in lets say HDMI1, then on that input I can tell it what to do with 2 channel (leave it or upscale it), I can set which speakers are enabled or disabled, I can set which crossover points are used etc. Then I can create another input and also assign HDMI1 to it. Physically it's the same, but I can reconfigure all the above.
- Ideally, I'd have an input for "PC Movies". This would have 7.2.4 enabled, movie crossovers, and upscale all my audio to atmos.
- Then "PC Music". This would output in say all channel stereo. I'd enable my front left/right, my rear left/right but at -6db, disable my surrounds and ceiling speakers. Enable center at -6db, enable subs crossed over at 40hz but sub #2 crossed over at 100hz. Is something like this possible?

Looking at the manual, it appeared to me that all this was possible. It also looked like the IP control allowed for basically full control of picking presets, volume settings etc.

I think that the Altitude will do all that you want but it does not have the concept of virtual inputs. It separates all the acoustical settings into presets of which there are 29.

Presets are not attached to inputs but can be if required. This is more flexible than virtual inputs as the same audio characteristics can be used for multiple inputs.
The IP commands are functional and easy to implement. The only issue is that there is no IP support for changing lip sync delay via IP. I find this a real PITA. I am hoping that Trinnov will add this functionality in the future

As I know you are a big JVC RS4500 fan, I can reassure you that in my case, upgrading from a Meridian 861 processor to a Trinnov was a much bigger improvement to my theatre than my recent upgrade from a RS600 to a RS4500. This is not meant as a criticism of the 4500, rather to show how good the Altitude is. My system is currently 5.1 so I am referring to basic audio quality rather than the ability to do high number of channels
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post #8917 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Htnut2000 View Post
I think that the Altitude will do all that you want but it does not have the concept of virtual inputs. It separates all the acoustical settings into presets of which there are 29
You are correct about the huge flexibility that having the 29 presets brings, but you can *also* map virtual inputs (over 20 of them), giving you the best of both worlds.

Check out pages 51 onwards in the manual...
  • - you can give each input a name - such as "movies" - and then choose the connection (such as HDMI1) plus how you want the audio to be handled (using presets or hard coding something else - such as "atmos")
  • - You could then set up the next input - perhaps call it "music" - and then select the same connection (HDMI1) but this time choose completely different options for the handling of audio (again either using presents or hard coding, such as "auro")

Hope that helps :-)

Ian
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post #8918 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Htnut2000 View Post
As I know you are a big JVC RS4500 fan, I can reassure you that in my case, upgrading from a Meridian 861 processor to a Trinnov was a much bigger improvement to my theatre than my recent upgrade from a RS600 to a RS4500. This is not meant as a criticism of the 4500, rather to show how good the Altitude is. My system is currently 5.1 so I am referring to basic audio quality rather than the ability to do high number of channels
Did you do any blind testing when you compared the Meridian to the Trinnov? I have never heard the Meridian. A comparison of my former Marantz and Emotiva processors is not apples to apples, since I had upgraded to JBL speakers at the same time I upgraded my processor.

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post #8919 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Room is like 4mtx3.8mt ~2.5mt height and a massive glass door just behind where I'm going to be seated ....
no treatments for now
Thanks for the dimensions and pictures Ben, I can see you have limited options !

I suppose the big question for me, is what are you trying to achieve, and how flexible are you prepared to be ?

For example, the Trinnov is a very valuable piece of kit so, if money is tight but your goal is to get the best sound quality you can, you will end up with a much better result if you sold the Trinnov and switched to a good but more modest brand (eg. Arcam) and put the difference into buying passive treatments for the room.

However that may not be what you're trying to achieve so, to answer your specific questions...
  • to create a 4.2.6 layout you could indeed start with the 9.1.6 default and add/remove speakers until it matches what you have
  • to get the "best" phantom centre place the front left and right as close together as you can (though the width of your screen will constrain you)

...but in more general terms, you need to maximise the signal to noise ratio. That means getting as much of the energy from the speakers to your ears as you can - ie. maximise DIRECT SOUND, and as little of anything else as you can, ie. minimise REFLECTED SOUND.

Subs don't matter so much, and the ceiling speakers are probably fine, but from the pictures it appears that there may be things between you and the 4 base layout speakers. It's important you remove any obstacles or objects that might interfere, such as the desk chair between you and the front right and the corner of the desk and the back right. I don't know how tall you are, but it does look like most of the sound from the rears will simply hit the back of the chair in the main seating position, so either have a lower chair back or lift the speakers higher and tilt them down.

So in summary, point all of the speakers directly at your seating position and then do what you can to ensure your view of them is uninterrupted.

Now that the direct sound is as good as you can make it, you need to tackle the reflections.

Sadly your room is all hard and flat surfaces, including the floor, and you need to have at least 30% of all of that to be covered. A thick rug on the floor in front of your seating position is an easy win, and then put as big and thick absorbent material in the corners of the room as you can squeeze in. And when I say corners, the first four are where the walls meet each other, but the next four are where each walls meets the ceiling.

There are loads of DIY options available online which can save you a lot of money. It won't look as nice or be tuned as well as a professional installation, but it will still be massively better than relying on the digital world to fix the problems in the physical world.

Hope some of that is useful -

Ian
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Panasonic DP-UB9000EBK / Oppo BDP-83 (multi-region) / Sonos ZP90 > Trinnov Altitude (9.2.6 layout) > Adam Audio 1xA7X & 2xA77X & 12xA3X (all active) plus 2xSVS PC2000 (dual subs) / Tiger XLR cables for all audio output & RuiPro Optical HDMI for video output / JVC DLA-N5 projector > 8' GrandView tab-tensioned Screen / 150 square feet of DIY Acoustic Panels
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post #8920 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 01:02 PM
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Did Trinnov ever indicate when DTS:X Pro would be released?
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post #8921 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 01:53 PM
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been away for a while...

Good release progress has happened in the mean time. New 4.2.11. software packages upgrade went quickly. But then in my VNC session to A32 I noticed that Optimizer Settings Main Settings adjustments were impossible to change. That was due to new Guided automation process and after once done that the system allowed again me to adjust how much "Maximum Boost" and "Maximum Attenuation" can be set - so problem solved. Before I went to guided calibration I did play quickly with some kind of B&K "look a like" target curve and saved that as a named target curve file in A32. No USB was connected. I used the file several files and saved some changes and all went smoothly.

The new guided setup process sets target curve as linear and therefore I uploaded the earlier saved B&K type file, but for some reason the curve after about 10k was not ok. I started to adjust it with vnc mouse and the idea was to save it again and replace the old file. Then suddenly while saving target curve the system crashed and error picture attached here. I had to shut down the system from front plate power button and then restart. A new VNC session and continue target curve settings and the system crashes again in the same position when editing the earlier target curve above 10k. It seems that no movie this evening. I hope the error file was sent.

EDIT:
Self service help - I deleted the old saved target curve and made a new and no new black screens. Easy way to create the B&K curve is in zoomed A32 window mode where resolution is high. Original B&K picture is old, but useful to get it done. My preferences are speakers that are kind of less impacted to room reflections (genelec, gradient, coaxials etc...) and therefore less room treatment is needed and also need for adjust the curve is needed less. That is so called "less ironing of the curves is better" method. Here attached the B&K house curve idea and implementation of it to A32.

A32 software bugs have been fixed to 4.2.11 and earlier bluray stream identify/handshake/decode problems with DTS /DTS X sources seem to be gone and player sending bit stream is now identified and A32 front screen show what is sent and expected to get. Well done and finally no try this try that tricks needed. Still some more tests to do. It seems that the 24bit more than 96k (176.3 and 192k) unbreakable stream handling (HW) problem exist and means device hw repair visit needed.

Playing with A32 is a long and rewarding hobby journey. It is like tuning a lightweight turbocharged sports car but way cheaper than that, but still hits the pocket.
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Last edited by Tommy_HT; 09-28-2019 at 06:31 AM.
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post #8922 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 03:11 PM
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Did Trinnov ever indicate when DTS:X Pro would be released?
That it would be this year.
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post #8923 of 9227 Old 09-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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That it would be this year.

That works for me.
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post #8924 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianwilsn View Post
Thanks for the dimensions and pictures Ben, I can see you have limited options !

I suppose the big question for me, is what are you trying to achieve, and how flexible are you prepared to be ?

For example, the Trinnov is a very valuable piece of kit so, if money is tight but your goal is to get the best sound quality you can, you will end up with a much better result if you sold the Trinnov and switched to a good but more modest brand (eg. Arcam) and put the difference into buying passive treatments for the room.

However that may not be what you're trying to achieve so, to answer your specific questions...
  • to create a 4.2.6 layout you could indeed start with the 9.1.6 default and add/remove speakers until it matches what you have
  • to get the "best" phantom centre place the front left and right as close together as you can (though the width of your screen will constrain you)

...but in more general terms, you need to maximise the signal to noise ratio. That means getting as much of the energy from the speakers to your ears as you can - ie. maximise DIRECT SOUND, and as little of anything else as you can, ie. minimise REFLECTED SOUND.

Subs don't matter so much, and the ceiling speakers are probably fine, but from the pictures it appears that there may be things between you and the 4 base layout speakers. It's important you remove any obstacles or objects that might interfere, such as the desk chair between you and the front right and the corner of the desk and the back right. I don't know how tall you are, but it does look like most of the sound from the rears will simply hit the back of the chair in the main seating position, so either have a lower chair back or lift the speakers higher and tilt them down.

So in summary, point all of the speakers directly at your seating position and then do what you can to ensure your view of them is uninterrupted.

Now that the direct sound is as good as you can make it, you need to tackle the reflections.

Sadly your room is all hard and flat surfaces, including the floor, and you need to have at least 30% of all of that to be covered. A thick rug on the floor in front of your seating position is an easy win, and then put as big and thick absorbent material in the corners of the room as you can squeeze in. And when I say corners, the first four are where the walls meet each other, but the next four are where each walls meets the ceiling.

There are loads of DIY options available online which can save you a lot of money. It won't look as nice or be tuned as well as a professional installation, but it will still be massively better than relying on the digital world to fix the problems in the physical world.

Hope some of that is useful -

Ian
Hello Ian and thanks for the help.
My altitude will remain ... thankfully I'm not in need of money but at the same time I'd like not to spend too much in a room which isn't a dedicated one... I can't completely darken a room that is also used as my studio where I work :-)

thanks for all the suggestions and I might post back some results once I'll be settled in with the new configuration

thanks again

have a nice day,

Ben
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post #8925 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 01:36 AM
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To sum up the advantages/disadvantages for using the INPUT graphic EQ for BEQ:

- Easier to understand or explain the concept YES
- Easier to implement NO
- Accurate NO

Conclusion: Forget it.

PS The ability to use PEQ filters on the inputs, including exporting and importing of soundtrack specific sets of filters for those inputs, may be somewhere way down Trinnov's to-do list.

The PEQ editor however works very well as a substitute for a 2X4HD, the only disadvantage is having to manually input the filters. This is for Oblivion BTW.
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post #8926 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianwilsn View Post
You are correct about the huge flexibility that having the 29 presets brings, but you can *also* map virtual inputs (over 20 of them), giving you the best of both worlds.

Check out pages 51 onwards in the manual...
  • - you can give each input a name - such as "movies" - and then choose the connection (such as HDMI1) plus how you want the audio to be handled (using presets or hard coding something else - such as "atmos")
  • - You could then set up the next input - perhaps call it "music" - and then select the same connection (HDMI1) but this time choose completely different options for the handling of audio (again either using presents or hard coding, such as "auro")

Hope that helps :-)

Ian
This is the exact "virtual input" description I'd be looking for.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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post #8927 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 10:08 AM
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Does a movie have to be encoded in DTS:X Pro to take advantage of the format or will any movie in DTS:X avail the advantages of DTS:X Pro?
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post #8928 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That works for me.
Yeah, but some kind of countdown to release would be most welcome. Not sure I understand how DTS went from ruling the Blu ray market, to letting Dolby Atmos all but completely take over. Still, I really like the idea of having floor speakers, and being able to use tye center height channels that I have installed.

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post #8929 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 11:27 AM
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Does a movie have to be encoded in DTS:X Pro to take advantage of the format or will any movie in DTS:X avail the advantages of DTS:X Pro?
The latter.
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post #8930 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
Not sure I understand how DTS went from ruling the Blu ray market, to letting Dolby Atmos all but completely take over.

The DTS Marketing department literally oversold a technology that the engineers at DTS had no idea how to deliver.


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post #8931 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 03:15 PM
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Tried changing the clock to 88 and 96 when listening to music (slave rate 44). It seems to introduce a popping sound (like dust on record) intermittently, so turned it back to slave.
What does decorrelation on the speaker settings do? Not sure I can a difference on or off.
Thanks
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post #8932 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The latter.
Thanks.

How will DTS:X Pro benefit existing DTS:X tracks?
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post #8933 of 9227 Old 09-27-2019, 05:48 PM
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Thanks.

How will DTS:X Pro benefit existing DTS:X tracks?
Dts-x pro will remove the 7.1.4 limitation, and extend sound beyond 7.1.4 to all speakers. Unless the movie has been mastered with objects, however, those additional channels will be matrixed with neural X.
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post #8934 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 12:49 AM
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those additional channels will be matrixed with neural X.
More precisely: by center extraction.

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post #8935 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 02:40 AM
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More precisely: by center extraction.
Do you know more about exactly how the matrixing works and/or any limitations ?

Meanwhile was anyone at Cedia this year and heard the DTS-X Pro demo by Trinnov ?

https://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...dia-2019/44753

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post #8936 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 05:09 AM
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Guys can you suggest what amps to use with the trinnov ?

Someone told me that the ATI at52xnc series is a good match , can you tell me about your experiences ?

Thanks
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post #8937 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 06:11 AM
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Guys can you suggest what amps to use with the trinnov ?

Someone told me that the ATI at52xnc series is a good match , can you tell me about your experiences ?

Thanks
ATI is a very good brand. But in my experience the optimal one for A16/A32 is Amplitude8 (or 8M). These amplifiers are produced on specification from Trinnov by ATI. They have a perfect match between input and the A16/A32 outputs. Also they support DB25.

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Last edited by Berland; 09-28-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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post #8938 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 06:41 AM
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Do you know more about exactly how the matrixing works and/or any limitations ?
DTS:X Pro's up-mixing extracts correlated sound out of the feeds of two adjacent speakers to create a new ("pseudo-discrete") feed for a speaker positioned right in the middle. By repeating this process DTS:X pro can create 16 (edit: excl. 3 bottom speakers) additional main speaker feeds on top of a 7.x.4 soundtrack. This type of up-mixing can increase both spaciousness as well as positional precision, but will be prone to decrease in accuracy in terms of director's and mixer's intent. Whether this will be audible or not remains to be seen/heard...
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post #8939 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
DTS:X Pro's up-mixing extracts correlated sound out of the feeds of two adjacent speakers to create a new ("pseudo-discrete") feed for a speaker positioned right in the middle
Sounds like the perfect way to expand their 7.x.4 DTS-X encoded discs to take advantage of my 9.x.6 layout - ie. creating "wides" out of "mains and surrounds", and "ceiling middles" out of "ceiling fronts and backs".

Exciting possibilities - and thanks ! :-)

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post #8940 of 9227 Old 09-28-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
DTS:X Pro's up-mixing extracts correlated sound out of the feeds of two adjacent speakers to create a new ("pseudo-discrete") feed for a speaker positioned right in the middle.

Perhaps implied but to make it explicit, I believe the correlated sounds are also removed from the adjacent speakers.
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