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post #9121 of 9390 Old 10-20-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gdfein View Post
This may be a dumb question on the ALT16/ALT32 capabilities but can different inputs be used with different out channels to run another zone simultaneously?

I plan to use 13 of 16 avail and wonder if other channels might be able to play a music or sports audio source with a second Tv in my adjacent bar area while a movie or TV plays in the theater?

I suppose this itch is easily scratched with a small AVR but running out of rack space.



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I calibrated an Altitude 32 which used 24 channels in the main theater, and the remaining 8 in a 7.1 system, but they cannot be used simultaneously. You could do some really tricksy stuff like defining a speaker as having a 2-way crossover with the same settings, and duplicating L&R to the bar speakers. You would be missing the center channel dialogue on anything that wasn't in stereo tho, so I'd recommend an LCR setup in the bar. Maybe an LCR speakerbar or such.

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post #9122 of 9390 Old 10-20-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
See post #98 at https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post58707368 for a discussion of what I am doing with subwoofers, selling my 2 JL Audio f212s and 2 Paradigm Personas and going with Seaton Subwoofers (finally after many months listening to Chuck/Audioguy).

I am selling my Seaton Submersives for 1/2 my purchase price if you are interested. Houston pick-up though.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #9123 of 9390 Old 10-20-2019, 09:54 PM
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Not picking up and getting either Mark's 18" or new 21" and 6-8 of them. As I stated, my installer is getting with Mark to determine what will work for both placement and size given pecularities of my theater dimensions and setup.

No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason! 9.9.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade still in process!
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post #9124 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 08:25 AM
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Anyone know if you can backup an AL16 config and load it on an SDP-75?
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post #9125 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Anyone know if you can backup an AL16 config and load it on an SDP-75?
I don't know the answer, but I'd be worried about any PEQs applied, since the SDP-75 uses "Harman applied" PEQs vs. user-defined.
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post #9126 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Anyone know if you can backup an AL16 config and load it on an SDP-75?
I can say for certain that you can't load an Alt32 config into an Alt16, so I'd be confident you couldn't take an Alt16 and load into an SDP-75
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post #9127 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 09:53 AM
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Yeah, didn’t think so - time to stop being lazy and take some screen shots from my current config...
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post #9128 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I can say for certain that you can't load an Alt32 config into an Alt16, so I'd be confident you couldn't take an Alt16 and load into an SDP-75
Interesting - although from an academic POV, I wonder if the reverse is possible (loading an Altitude 16's configuration into an Altitude 32) when the number of channels is less than or equal what the 32 might support.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
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post #9129 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 01:01 PM
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After reading nearly 9000 posts on this forum, doing some home-work, I finally bit the bullet and became a proud owner of the Altitude-32.

My history with Room Compensation
I have an early adopter/believer in room correction for 15+ years. Started with the Behringer DEQ2496. Despite simplistic, far from optimum, with its auto (graphic) EQ function, it was this unit that opened my eyes (ears) and made me a firm believer that room-EQ is an absolute must, even in well-treated rooms.
Followed-up by the Tact RCS2.2, which served me well in my two-channel setup.
In our studio control-room, we used Lyngdorf room-perfect with the KRK Ergo monitor controller. After this, I moved to China, and my next room-EQ system was based on Audyssey, which I quickly replaced by Dirac.
The latter was the best from all. It was the first room correction that worked in the mid-highs as well. It served me very well for a reasonable amount of time, and it was delightful.

This was until I heard what Trinnov could do in my system, which is simply breathtaking and a significant breakthrough in my audio experience. Trinnov brings me closer to what I consider the ideal audio-reproduction experience.

My listening preference, expectations
Having worked for more then a decade in a variety of music and media record studio's I am spoiled with the dry and well-treated sound of well-designed control-rooms with equally flat tuned monitors. I am not a fan of house curves and a firm believer in a flat reproduction.

I never make any adjustments in the target curve and is a flat line.

The so-called "sauce" and musicality lies in the record/movie and is defined by the mix of how the artist/sound engineer intended it to be. Speakers or audio shouldn't have any character of their own. I desire 1:1 reproduction. This is in practice nearly impossible, but bit by bit, I am getting closer. The Trinnov brought me a HUGE leap closer.

I don't believe in a system only good for two-channel, or only good for movies. Both movies as music productions are pieces of art with tons of effort (and investments) from producers, artists, and studio engineers, etcetera. A good system can and should reproduce both as accurate as possible.

The 5.1 system
Format-wise I am outdated with my 5.1 system. I wish one day to go further in immersive audio, but my current apartment and lack of space and flexibility to drill holes in my walls and ceiling limit me at this point. However, even in a 5.1 system, the Trinnov does absolute magic, and in a way, I've never heard before on other lessen immersive audio processors.

-Front: Magnepan MG20.7
-Center: B&W HTM72
-Back: Magnepan MG1.7
-Subwoofers: 2x SVS PC13 Ultra
-Amplification: 5x Benchmark AHB2 (mono operation)
-Source: Oppo UPD205
-Screen: Samsung 9000 series 78" curved 4K (first generation)
-Processor: Trinnov Altitude-32 1624

The Trinnov
Two-channel music is and will always be important to me, and this is how I started to evaluate the Trinnov unit after calibration.

I have changed the calibration settings slightly so and chosen 1/12 octave resolution as opposed to the default 1/3 octave. I have expanded the correction range from +6dB/-10dB to +8dB/-20dB. The reason for doing this is that there isn't any boost more than 5dB performed in the 15Hz. < 80Hz. Array. I like the -20dB correction possibility to filter out some nasty peaks of my room. I have made two presets &#226;€” one with the default settings and one with the 1/12 octave resolution. The differences are subtle but valid, and the latter options give me slightly more resolution with a more layered mix. More organic.

Last but not least. Both SVS subs stand in the corners hidden behind the Magnepans. They are connected with a T cable and corrected as a combined/summed response of both. This gives me better results than individual frequency correction.

What the Trinnov does in the low-end is merely stunning. It is like my SVS subs are grabbed by their guts, and give me this fast transient compact tight low-end. I can hear the character of the kick drum isolated and centered from the middle of the stage. Bass player details of pick-up placement playing position and alternating during a song become easily hearable. The integration with the Magnepans is seamless, and one can't tell there are subs active until I switch them off.

The mid-highs are perhaps more organic/sterile than it was with Dirac, however accurate. I hear details I've never heard before. Hidden layers in the mix as second mute guitar parts or deeply buried synth strings all become visible. When listening to choirs or bigger horn sections, I was stunned with how layered and focussed each instrument and voices are placed. Details extend as far that I can even hear the type of effect that is used in (such as the legacy lexicon 480 reverb). For pure two-channel listening, this is absolute reference level, and I am convinced at this point, no other device could bring me this close to reality.

When switching to movies, it is like the beast is getting out. Sub territory low-end I've never experienced in this room with these subwoofers. Nor did the Trinnov extensively boost any low frequencies. However, the lowest octave that has been masked before the Trinnov magically appears. I don't know how they do it, but it must have something to do with psychoacoustics, where if care is taken of harmonics above the fundamental things fall in place. Aquaman destroys the house with shockwaves physically hitting and shaking my sofa.

For the first time, I feel I am in a dry, well-dampened room with the attack, detail, and drive I always strived for.

As Trinnov righteous states, Room correction isn't the magic that solves all acoustic problems. Better acoustics is and will always be the foundation of any sound sounding system. That being said, It amazes me how the Trinnov system can give me the illusion I am in a control-room of one of the best record studios with the associated fast transient and attack times and dryness of bass.

Need some help
Despite the system performing so well, I do think I need some help, and I have a feeling I make some mistakes operating the product.

1: Can someone explain to me what the source-page is exactly for under the "Setup" tab. I figured it is the loudspeaker placement source, which I put on 5.1 ITU. The issue I have is: each time I power on the system, it always jump on "Stereo" in this source tab, until I reload my preset. This behavior is odd; there, I did configure the source page to load my preset by default when power on. What can I possibly do wrong?

2: 3D mapping. For some reason, it doesn't work the way some describing. In surround, my center is almost dead, at least 30dB lower than all other channels. Center channels get mixed to the mains as a phantom, and little sound comes from the center. Is this normal? This doesn't appear with 2D mapping. When listening to stereo sources. 3D/2D mapping doesn't seem to do much. I read in some post that supposedly 3D mapping (also for stereo) is firing compensation content through all connected speakers. This isn't the case in my setup. No signal goes to any of the speakers other then L/R

3: How can you configure the 12V trigger input to switch on the unit by the Oppo?

Thanks in advance for your help.

If it sounds good.... it is good!

Last edited by soundevolution; 10-21-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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post #9130 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 05:39 PM
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I am STILL not able to play multi-channel music files through Roon and the Trinnov.


Here is the Device Setup:



Here is what Roon sees:



What is playing:


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post #9131 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 07:38 PM
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Audioguy, what ROON Core device are you using? E.G., I have a Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter i7, connected via network, and have no issues playing multi-channel hi rez with ROON. Is your ROON Core device perhaps not capable or not setup for multi-channel?

No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason! 9.9.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade still in process!
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post #9132 of 9390 Old 10-21-2019, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Audioguy, what ROON Core device are you using? E.G., I have a Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter i7, connected via network, and have no issues playing multi-channel hi rez with ROON. Is your ROON Core device perhaps not capable or not setup for multi-channel?

I have the SGI i5 running Roon Core and I talked to them months ago and it was confirmed that the i5 could easily play multi-channel. And it is connected via the network!!
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post #9133 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have the SGI i5 running Roon Core and I talked to them months ago and it was confirmed that the i5 could easily play multi-channel. And it is connected via the network!!

After our call, I had a thought and would like to try something this AM. Stay tuned...


Couple months ago I did buy 2 multichannel DXD albums from nativedsd.com & played one of them and seemed to have surrounds with Altitude's native playback mode - no upmixing. But I'd like to try it again to confirm and also try a different file type.

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post #9134 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
My understanding as well. If you can position your speakers within the format's recommended ranges, remapping does not necessarily add value if your aim is to come as close as possible to the mixer's intent.

Still, if you can not position your speakers within recommended ranges, more speakers will per definition improve the accuracy of 3D remapping.
There is another, IMO very spectacular, aspect of Trinnov's Remapping technology that I recently heard about and want to share with you guys, without having been able (yet) to get hands-on experience with it (will do ASAP, currently re-constructing listening room).

Ready? Brace yourselves. Here it comes:

Remapping can not only perceptually reposition misplaced speakers, it can also directly use the positional metadata of Atmos audio objects and position them at the exact place where they belong making use of any installed speaker, not just those positioned at the typical Atmos speaker locations.

What does this mean? Let's imagine an Atmos audio object positioned exactly at the position where a DTS:X center height speaker is mounted. The Atmos renderer in the Altitude will distribute this sound evenly over L and R front height speaker, to produce a phantom image right in the middle. If you now engage remapping, this audio object will now be reproduced by the Ch speaker, even though this specific location is not supported by the Atmos renderer itself.

How's that!

PS It could also be a (partial) answer to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Having the ability to extract Center Height and Top speaker for creating a better seat-to-seat consistency for centered overhead sounds, that is: no perceptual snapping to left or right speaker for listeners sitting off-axis. BTW: This could also (and preferably IMO) be realized by format independent center extraction, added as a post-processing option on the Altitude...

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 10-22-2019 at 10:41 AM. Reason: adding PS
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post #9135 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
There is another, IMO very spectacular, aspect of Trinnov's Remapping technology that I recently heard about and want to share with you guys, without having been able (yet) to get hands-on experience with it (will do ASAP, currently re-constructing listening room).

Ready? Brace yourselves. Here it comes:

Remapping can not only perceptually reposition misplaced speakers, it can also directly use the positional metadata of Atmos audio objects and position them at the exact place where they belong making use of any installed speaker, not just the Atmos speaker locations.

What does this mean? Let's imagine an Atmos audio object positioned exactly at the position where a DTS:X center height speaker is mounted. The Atmos renderer in the Altitude will distribute this sound evenly over L and R front height speaker, to produce a phantom image right in the middle. If you now engage remapping, this audio object will now be reproduced by the Ch speaker, even though this specific location is not supported by the Atmos renderer itself.

How's that!

PS It could also be a (partial) answer to this:


I think that true and answer my Q i had 6 hight 4 for atmos and CH and T but when i play atmos i feel that I had 6 played and the sound move around the ceiling smoothly i can imagine that’s happen only from the 3D mapping magic


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post #9136 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I am STILL not able to play multi-channel music files through Roon and the Trinnov.


Here is the Device Setup:



Here is what Roon sees:



What is playing:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Audioguy, what ROON Core device are you using? E.G., I have a Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter i7, connected via network, and have no issues playing multi-channel hi rez with ROON. Is your ROON Core device perhaps not capable or not setup for multi-channel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have the SGI i5 running Roon Core and I talked to them months ago and it was confirmed that the i5 could easily play multi-channel. And it is connected via the network!!
I don't get it. I have no issue with my Sonic Transporter i7 playing multi-channel; and my prior Sonic Transporter i5 also played multi-channel hi-rez files (except the i5 is not powerful enough for hi-rez multi-channel in that anything above DSD could have flow/click issues - which is why I recommend i7 or i9 if you are going to play multi-channel).

The pictures you posted show that your Sonic Transporter i5 is playing the multi-channel track - but your Trinnov SSP shows only 2.1 channels being played. My gut is that either its a setup issue with your Trinnov SSP or an issue with YOUR Trinnov SSP. E.G., upon getting my Altitude 32 setup, playing music via ROON, I found I had a skipping issue playing 176/192 -24, fine 96-24 and lower, and Trinnov replaced the firewire card and all was fine. There could be some sort of issue with YOUR Trinnov SSP, too. Your SSP should be showing that its playing 5.1 channels on the album you are displaying, but it only shows that its playing 2.1 channels, even though the source Sonic Transporter i5 shows its outputting 5.1 channels.

No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason! 9.9.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade still in process!
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post #9137 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundevolution View Post
After reading nearly 9000 posts on this forum, doing some home-work, I finally bit the bullet and became a proud owner of the Altitude-32.


Need some help
Despite the system performing so well, I do think I need some help, and I have a feeling I make some mistakes operating the product.

2: 3D mapping. For some reason, it doesn't work the way some describing. In surround, my center is almost dead, at least 30dB lower than all other channels. Center channels get mixed to the mains as a phantom, and little sound comes from the center. Is this normal? This doesn't appear with 2D mapping. When listening to stereo sources. 3D/2D mapping doesn't seem to do much. I read in some post that supposedly 3D mapping (also for stereo) is firing compensation content through all connected speakers. This isn't the case in my setup. No signal goes to any of the speakers other then L/R

Thanks in advance for your help.
Given your listed Samsung flat panel and B&W center channel, I'm guessing the center is below the TV and noticeably below the height the Trinnov mic measured for your Magnapans. Go to the Optimizer Settings tab and you will likely first see the top view where you can switch to the Elevation tab. I suspect you will see a significant difference in measured Elevation of the center, and the 3D optimization is not fully using the center channel as it sees the position too low vs the main speakers. This also explains why the 2D remapping would still work well, as it is not trying to correct vertical location, just horizontal angle of origin.
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post #9138 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have the SGI i5 running Roon Core and I talked to them months ago and it was confirmed that the i5 could easily play multi-channel. And it is connected via the network!!
I just confirmed I'm getting 5.1 playback from Altitude 16 with Roon with the same settings we discussed by phone. I downloaded a sampler 96/24 flac file from 2L and put it on the sonicTransporter i5. Plays perfectly as 5.1 with native audio playback option in Trinnov.

I tried several freebie so-called 5.1 & 7.1 test samples for speaker testing in flac but the 3 I tried either didn't show up in Roon, didn't play at all or played back in stereo! I think a whole lot may depend on the ripper/encoder/container software used. The free test tones clearly have some issues but the professional studio file from 2L works!

And the nativedsd.com album I bought in 5.1 DSD64 plays back as 5.1 also. FWIW the album was some mideastern world music: TRPTK Sessions by Arezoo Zervani (DSF-DSD64)

Could the issue be the ripping software or perhaps its settings? Just throwing out something It's hard to believe it's your Altitude which plays back everything else.

My suggestion is try one of these studio files just to make sure your Altitude & Roon plays 5.1. 2L puts out good stuff & it's a few minutes of nice listening anyway some classical music from one of their recording artists. This page has a whole variety of formats you can download as samples per artist from stereo to 5.1 to various DSDs.

Hi-res sample file link -

http://www.2l.no/hires/

Edit - I couldn't email the file; Comcast has a 25MB file size limit But the file I downloaded was the 1st one (!) - Hoff Ensemble - Innocence from the column "5.1 Surround 24 Bit 96Khz" in flac.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 10-22-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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post #9139 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Remapping can not only perceptually reposition misplaced speakers, it can also directly use the positional metadata of Atmos audio objects and position them at the exact place where they belong making use of any installed speaker, not just those positioned at the typical Atmos speaker locations.

What does this mean? Let's imagine an Atmos audio object positioned exactly at the position where a DTS:X center height speaker is mounted. The Atmos renderer in the Altitude will distribute this sound evenly over L and R front height speaker, to produce a phantom image right in the middle. If you now engage remapping, this audio object will now be reproduced by the Ch speaker, even though this specific location is not supported by the Atmos renderer itself.

How's that!
Your example would seem to go against how the workflow proceeds with the Altitude (p.169 of the most recent Altitude 32 v4.2.11 manual). That has Decoder->Input Levels->Bass Management->Speakers Remapping. How would Trinnov "know" to keep the objects apart and put them into the Ch speaker in your example for a case when remapping is activated? I would think that decoding was conducted according to Dolby specs and programmed by Trinnov into their software.

It would seem to me that if the front heights are positioned exactly or very close to the ideal front heights Atmos locations, the decoding and rendering of objects to specific speakers based on the 3D location of the objects has already happened evenly into the front heights in your hypothetical and remapping will do little to nothing with the Ch. If the heights are significantly away from the ideal according to Trinnov's implementation of remapping, then in that special case you might see the Ch getting signal, and at an extreme collapsing the Lfh/Rfh into the Ch. I suppose you can test this comparing the Input and Output meters on Atmos content that's getting played by the front heights, or use a DTS:X layout and play back DTS Enhanced content and see if the Ch is playing content with 3D remapping engaged that would otherwise be phantom imaged by the heights where the Ch is located (but that physical speaker not playing it back as I understand what DTS Enhanced is technically doing).

By the way, the most recent manual is here for the Altitude 32:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fGu...q6s_5aZ5B/view

The Altitude 16:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C8r...ulX3rC8sm/view
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post #9140 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jmanthey View Post
I've been trying for some time to have the latest update pushed to my A16. However, I'm being indirectly told that the US technician is delaying the updating of my processor due to a bug that Trinnov would like to fix first. I am assured that nothing is wrong with my A16. Does anyone have information about this issue?
Not heard anything regarding this. Running the 4.2.11 on the A32, no issues here. I know others using the last release version of the software on A16 as well, not heard anything about any issues.

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post #9141 of 9390 Old 10-22-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Not heard anything regarding this. Running the 4.2.11 on the A32, no issues here. I know others using the last release version of the software on A16 as well, not heard anything about any issues.
Thanks, @Berland . I suspected as much. I'll have to find out what's going on.

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post #9142 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundevolution View Post
After reading nearly 9000 posts on this forum, doing some home-work, I finally bit the bullet and became a proud owner of the Altitude-32.


Need some help
Despite the system performing so well, I do think I need some help, and I have a feeling I make some mistakes operating the product.

2: 3D mapping. For some reason, it doesn't work the way some describing. In surround, my center is almost dead, at least 30dB lower than all other channels. Center channels get mixed to the mains as a phantom, and little sound comes from the center. Is this normal? This doesn't appear with 2D mapping. When listening to stereo sources. 3D/2D mapping doesn't seem to do much. I read in some post that supposedly 3D mapping (also for stereo) is firing compensation content through all connected speakers. This isn't the case in my setup. No signal goes to any of the speakers other then L/R

Thanks in advance for your help.
Given your listed Samsung flat panel and B&W center channel, I'm guessing the center is below the TV and noticeably below the height the Trinnov mic measured for your Magnapans. Go to the Optimizer Settings tab and you will likely first see the top view where you can switch to the Elevation tab. I suspect you will see a significant difference in measured Elevation of the center, and the 3D optimization is not fully using the center channel as it sees the position too low vs the main speakers. This also explains why the 2D remapping would still work well, as it is not trying to correct vertical location, just horizontal angle of origin.
Dear Mark,

Thank you for replying. You are correct. The center speaker is located below the LCD panel. Is there anyway I can measure/trigger the trinnov to (fully) utilize my center speaker? I noticed when I put my magnepans extreme toe-in the center comes back, but this isn’t desired.

Please see attached screenshots and the real setup.

As can be seen in the metering page, very little output from the center.

On a side-note. It does sound absolutely stunning and better then 2D re-mapping or remapping off.
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If it sounds good.... it is good!

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post #9143 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Your example would seem to go against how the workflow proceeds with the Altitude (p.169 of the most recent Altitude 32 v4.2.11 manual). That has Decoder->Input Levels->Bass Management->Speakers Remapping.

How would Trinnov "know" to keep the objects apart and put them into the Ch speaker in your example for a case when remapping is activated? I would think that decoding was conducted according to Dolby specs and programmed by Trinnov into their software.
I agree, and at this moment I don't know how the signal flow would need to be to allow this remapping of Atmos audio objects. The only way I can think of right now is to look at it as some special form of up-mixing, in which the original object coordinates are used to re-distribute the 11 to 15 Atmos audio objects over all available speakers, including non-Atmos speakers.

Thinking about it, there might be an easy way to verify what is happening. Select an Atmos track that shows significant, and clearly recognizable activity in the wides. Play this on an Atmos config and mute all speakers but the wides, and listen to what you hear. Now remove the wides from your Atmos config in the speaker assignment tab. The wides should be silent now as their sound will now be distributed over the L/R mains and first surrounds (it's a good idea to at this point check whether the sound is indeed going to both L/R main and surround, if not, you might be listening to an audio object with a "snap to nearest speaker" tag which will not work for this). Now activate Remapping. The removed sound should now reappear in the wides, even though you have deactivated them as being part of the Atmos config.

Quote:
It would seem to me that if the front heights are positioned exactly or very close to the ideal front heights Atmos locations, the decoding and rendering of objects to specific speakers based on the 3D location of the objects has already happened evenly into the front heights in your hypothetical and remapping will do little to nothing with the Ch. If the heights are significantly away from the ideal according to Trinnov's implementation of remapping, then in that special case you might see the Ch getting signal, and at an extreme collapsing the Lfh/Rfh into the Ch.
That's a perfect description of how speaker remapping works, and what I thought was the whole story ...

Quote:
I suppose you can test this comparing the Input and Output meters on Atmos content that's getting played by the front heights, or use a DTS:X layout and play back DTS Enhanced content and see if the Ch is playing content with 3D remapping engaged that would otherwise be phantom imaged by the heights where the Ch is located (but that physical speaker not playing it back as I understand what DTS Enhanced is technically doing).
What do you mean with DTS Enhanced? And this "object remapping" was described in relation to Atmos only.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #9144 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by soundevolution View Post
Dear Mark,

Thank you for replying. You are correct. The center speaker is located below the LCD panel. Is there anyway I can measure/trigger the trinnov to (fully) utilize my center speaker? I noticed when I put my magnepans extreme toe-in the center comes back, but this isn’t desired.
A fellow Maggie owner Like you, I have the 20.7's but use the wall mounted MC1's as surrounds and their CC3 center. Upgraded last yr to the 20.7's from 3.6's.

Years ago, starting with a HD RPTV, then Pio plasma and now a 4K OLED, I made the decision to place the center CC3 above not below the display. 2 reasons which may or may not make sense -

1. placing above places the center much closer to where peoples' heads & therefore dialog will occur so it will be more coherent and matched to display than if placed below.

2. ceiling mounted & angled downward, it will also be more seamless & cohesive to the L/R. Plus a Maggie center is voiced to be same or similar to the large panels.

Your 2nd issue is how the Altitude is sensing the B&W center. By firing straight ahead & below where your head and Trinnov mic is placed, you are losing some directionality of mid & high freq's and probably not getting an optimum calibration. If you must stay with the B&W, my suggestion is angle it to your ears, either on a stand or suspended above the TV. Then the Altitude & mic can do a much better job of positioning & level matching it. The resulting calibration & the direct sound to your ears will be more prevalent in the overall soundfield.

To be honest my best suggestion: look at Magnepan's own center speakers. They have same basic dipolar design as the panels. They have fabric covered mounting holes on the tops & bottoms to screw in eyebolts or other hardware. You can then use decorative chains or similar & ceiling suspend them to literally be right above your flat panel. It works really well and I have had near-seamless integration with 1.6's, 3.6's and 20.7's. The CC3 is discontinued but the CC5 & CCR are current. I found the CCR to be a bit pricey but CC5 is about a grand USD. The only downside to the new models is they drop off bass at ~200Hz but you can add a DWM panel or adjust bass mgmt accordingly. I have a DWM placed below the flat panel and it handles the 40-200 range but in my case I send <80 to subs so I use DWM to fill in the CC3's 40-80 gap and set its Xover at ~100. I bought the DWM long before I had an Altitude so needed that fill-in. Both in unison are seamless as an integrated center. But you could just as easily bass manage Maggie centers to subs @ hi Xover or to the 20.7's! In fact, Magnepan prefers sending their center's bass to the L/R panels vs subs. They feel it's even more integrated that way. Altitude gives you the flexibility to direct LFE & bass to other nearby speakers then bass manage those speakers to subs. Esoteric option but it's there.

Please take this as trying to be helpful - to me the B&W center seems a mismatch with the rest of your ultra-performance 20.7. A small cabinet placed speaker, no matter how good, will be lost between the huge soundstage & imaging of your Maggies. Plus you can have diffraction effects from the cabinet. Before I used the CC3, I had tried for many years to use a DefTech "box" center with 80's vintage MGII's (much smaller than 20's) and the center never sounded right, cohesive or part of the soundstage plus it sounded like the point source that it was - apples & oranges. Ditched it when I bought 1.6's and never looked back. Maggie centers have curved ribbons & membranes so that their sound fills the space between the panels and a near-seamless transition plus will sound more integrated. Seems a shame to have 20.7 fronts & 1.7's as surrounds but a small, completely different speaker to handle the most critical part of a movie soundtrack - dialog. If possible, CW is to use same design speakers from the same mfg across the LCR stage.

https://www.magnepan.com/models/CC5
https://www.magnepan.com/models/CCR

You might want to talk to Wendell Diller @ Magnepan in US or at least your local dealer to get suggestions. I would at least look at a center shelf placed above the panel so you can angle it toward the MLP. Something like these perhaps?

https://www.amazon.com/Mount-Plus-MP...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

https://www.amazon.com/B-Tech-BT15-C.../dp/B000IGSKZ8

Or a stand with angling feature

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_265C25...C25-Stand.html

https://www.amazon.com/Vega-Center-S...27764920&psc=1

A stand or ceiling mounted CC5 would make a great addition to your front soundstage with 20.7's! Seriously

WRT to the Altitude, you could also try boosting the center level on the Processor-Output tab by enough dB's to get its level more in line with the L/R. Adjust to taste.

Steve

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post #9145 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 11:43 AM
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Another option is two center speakers, one above and one below, and let remapping place the image exactly where it belongs.

To increase practicality, I wonder how well it would work to use a small full-range speaker with a suitably band-limited target curve.
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post #9146 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I agree, and at this moment I don't know how the signal flow would need to be to allow this remapping of Atmos audio objects. The only way I can think of right now is to look at it as some special form of up-mixing, in which the original object coordinates are used to re-distribute the 11 to 15 Atmos audio objects over all available speakers, including non-Atmos speakers.
Maybe so. Perhaps using the term "remapping" is confusing as it makes us think of such playback as a function of activating the existing Trinnov Remapping (i.e. 2D, 3D, autoroute, matrix). Only time will tell what this means if possible, or this works differently independent of what we think of today as "Trinnov Remapping". Assuming your hypothesis is true.

Quote:
Thinking about it, there might be an easy way to verify what is happening. Select an Atmos track that shows significant, and clearly recognizable activity in the wides. Play this on an Atmos config and mute all speakers but the wides, and listen to what you hear. Now remove the wides from your Atmos config in the speaker assignment tab. The wides should be silent now as their sound will now be distributed over the L/R mains and first surrounds (it's a good idea to at this point check whether the sound is indeed going to both L/R main and surround, if not, you might be listening to an audio object with a "snap to nearest speaker" tag which will not work for this). Now activate Remapping. The removed sound should now reappear in the wides, even though you have deactivated them as being part of the Atmos config.
I'll do this tonight. There's a few Atmos movie tracks that heavily use wides (I want to say Red Sparrow, but Spiderman: Homecoming immediately comes to mind). And there's R.E.M's "Automatic for the People" that used Atmos speakers almost constantly, but has very distinct playback of vocals and instruments from specific speakers. Easy to play back with your hypothetical test and see.

Quote:
What do you mean with DTS Enhanced? And this "object remapping" was described in relation to Atmos only.
We don't have DTS Enhanced in the Trinnov yet, but as I understand it, DTS Enhanced plays back an object (in the DTS sense) which uses the center channel and L/R heights to create a phantom image in approximately where a DTS:X Ch speaker would be. However, it's a phantom image and doesn't play back content through the physical Ch speaker. If this is a traditional use of remapping, perhaps in an extremely off-axis physical layout vs. an ideal, 3D remapping might work similarly to how I was explaining how Ch would potential be used in a very specific 3D remapping case with a Dolby Atmos track. After all, once Atmos/DTS/Auro content has been decoded and rendered to specific speaker channels before any use of Trinnov remapping, from that point sound is sound. Unless it's not.

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post #9147 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jmanthey View Post
I've been trying for some time to have the latest update pushed to my A16. However, I'm being indirectly told that the US technician is delaying the updating of my processor due to a bug that Trinnov would like to fix first. I am assured that nothing is wrong with my A16. Does anyone have information about this issue?
I got this info from Trinnov that there were some issues found with a few Altitude16 units and 4.2.11, and upgrade were put on hold for A16 for a while (worldwide); this has been resolved already and rollout of 4.2.11 on A16 continues (I got an OK from Trinnov to share this info).

Edit:
The more direct term used by them was that a few A16 units acted weird with 4.2.11
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post #9148 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 01:03 PM
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Planning my theater 2.0 plans and had a question for the group. This is really open ended, but I’m curious what presets / separate settings people have aside from their default setting. Last time Adam did my calibration, he made a setting for extra bass and another for music (among other things). I read where someone did an atmos (heights) heavy setting. Just curious what people have done. I’m mainly wanting to make Adams life miserable with endless customizations


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post #9149 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Planning my theater 2.0 plans and had a question for the group. This is really open ended, but I’m curious what presets / separate settings people have aside from their default setting. Last time Adam did my calibration, he made a setting for extra bass and another for music (among other things). I read where someone did an atmos (heights) heavy setting. Just curious what people have done. I’m mainly wanting to make Adams life miserable with endless customizations


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I have one preset for all channels 9.2.9 with the two subs combined for .1 and crossover (I use this with listening format "Upmix on Native"; and Decoder Setup/General/Default PCM Upmixer set to Dolby Surround), and I have this preset for all sources except Roon. Roon I have a preset with 2.2 (stereo subs), and this one with listening format "Native". When listening to Roon surround; I have an identical preset as the one for 9.2.9; but with stereo sub's (.1 and all speakers on left side crossover to left sub; and all speakers to right crossover to right sub - center and Ctf with crossover to both subs).

So 3 presets. Only time I do any adjustment is when playing 5.1 from Roon - then I switch preset; else everything work automatically. I have selected preset and listening format on each input in Source Config. Even my wife is happy (that is the best stamp of approval regarding quality and setup you can get).
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post #9150 of 9390 Old 10-23-2019, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I got this info from Trinnov that there were some issues found with a few Altitude16 units and 4.2.11, and upgrade were put on hold for A16 for a while (worldwide); this has been resolved already and rollout of 4.2.11 on A16 continues (I got an OK from Trinnov to share this info).

Edit:
The more direct term used by them was that a few A16 units acted weird with 4.2.11
Thanks very much for following up on this. I'm ecstatic to know that I have a "special" unit. As of last week, however, I was still not getting the update. I'll try through my dealer again.

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