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post #9241 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 11:31 AM
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The issues of HDMI handshaking, sequence & potential problems has been ongoing for all HDMI gear since HDMI was invented.

Considering all the possible combinations of HDMI gear that can be connected in a chain, drawing the specific conclusion that a particular processor has better HDMI hardware board vs another processor seems to me not only pointless but wrong.
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post #9242 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
All of the above said, I haven't had any real issues with the Trinnov HDMI path since the last board software revision. Every problem I can think of was resolved by using good cables.

This
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post #9243 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
These aren't apples to apples comparisons, and [email protected] is offering opinions with subjective terms like "better" and "all devices are reliably recognized". Without support of specific devices and an A/B comparison, these read like marketing claims rather than evidence-based conclusions.

The specific devices engaged, the display/projector, cabling (i.e. passive vs. active over 25 ft), and the like are always going to be factors for switching performance of HDMI boards at a consumer level. And saying "the order doesn't matter" goes known recommendations for the startup path for HDMI-supporting equipment, from Denon and Trinnov (among others; this is hardly the first thread with HDMI switching that has been discussed on AVS). Why should Storm be the exception?

Also, it's unclear if he is a simply an owner, a dealer himself, or a stakeholder with Storm Audio. Looking at his post history, it seems that he almost exclusively posts about Storm Audio, on this thread or others. So forgive me for offering cynicism about his motives surfacing on this thread.
Fair enough. I did think the topic was primarily the order of power on to establish sync. Otherwise, like you say, too many hdmi variables for input to be relevant, unless much detail goes along with it.
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post #9244 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 01:43 PM
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I have had no issues with my Altitude 32 HDMI - I can't say the same for my prior SSP!

However, for anyone to simply say that one SSP brand has perfect HDMI when you consider the various HDMI sources and issues and even turn on sequence sort of tells you that someone lacks credibility or may have ulterior motive. I would add that at last CEDIA and many demos I noticed no issues in demos with HDMI and I attended a number of demos with Trinnov SSP and also Storm Audio.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #9245 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckie View Post
I went from the dreaded pink screen crashes to complete stability . I set my 4k sources (Oppo / Panasonic ) to 1.4 and Apple TV 4K to 2.0 and no more video problems .

Unfortunately , the 32 is connected to a Meridian 271 and the 'whiplash' thump when the signal connects is dreadful and almost life-threatening ;O)

~M~
The HDMI 2.0 board in Trinnov got different chips on HDMI port 1-4 and 5-7 (got information from Trinnov). Recommendation back then when I struggled with Apple TV 4K was to set "problematic" HDMI 2.0 units on port 5-7. And for HDMI 1.4 units; put those on HDMI 1-4 and set ports to 1.4 only.

Of course, later it turned out to be irrelevant; since the problem was connected to 1 meter HDMI cable used for Apple TV 4K. I put the 1 meter cable on a different unit (worked fine always); and set a 2 meter cable on Apple TV 4K - problem gone. HDMI is complicated stuff; and I have often seen more problems with 1 meter cables compared to 2 meter (or longer) cables. There are technical reasons why 1 meter HDMI can give issues on certain devices I have heard.

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post #9246 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 02:36 PM
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On a recent Trinnov training course it was recommended using 1.5m HDMI cables as minimum for source devices to avoid issues of unwanted excessive signal/voltage levels. Also not using 4:4:4 4K HDR on ATV due to low voltage levels on the HDMI.

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post #9247 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReTrOToo View Post
On a recent Trinnov training course it was recommended using 1.5m HDMI cables as minimum for source devices to avoid issues of unwanted excessive signal/voltage levels. Also not using 4:4:4 4K HDR on ATV due to low voltage levels on the HDMI.
I have set Apple TV 4K to 4:4:4, and use Dolby Vision/HDR. Works fine through A32.
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post #9248 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
The HDMI 2.0 board in Trinnov got different chips on HDMI port 1-4 and 5-7 (got information from Trinnov). Recommendation back then when I struggled with Apple TV 4K was to set "problematic" HDMI 2.0 units on port 5-7. And for HDMI 1.4 units; put those on HDMI 1-4 and set ports to 1.4 only.

Of course, later it turned out to be irrelevant; since the problem was connected to 1 meter HDMI cable used for Apple TV 4K. I put the 1 meter cable on a different unit (worked fine always); and set a 2 meter cable on Apple TV 4K - problem gone. HDMI is complicated stuff; and I have often seen more problems with 1 meter cables compared to 2 meter (or longer) cables. There are technical reasons why 1 meter HDMI can give issues on certain devices I have heard.
Pretty much what I found too , Apple TV 4K is the only source at the moment on a 2.0 port , both the Oppo 203 and Panasonic 9000 have been flying along on 1.4 ports !

I no longer try to understand HDMI , just to survive it ;O)

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post #9249 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I have set Apple TV 4K to 4:4:4, and use Dolby Vision/HDR. Works fine through A32.
I believe it was a suggested general practice recommendation due as it may causes issues with some devices. 4:2:2 setting doesn't cause the same level issue and doesn't impede any content available on the ATV.

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post #9250 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ReTrOToo View Post
I believe it was a suggested general practice recommendation due as it may causes issues with some devices. 4:2:2 setting doesn't cause the same level issue and doesn't impede any content available on the ATV.
I suspect I'm partially the reason for this recommendation. Apple TV 4K on a one meter HDMI cable was a pure nightmare. Weird part, same cable on Oppo UHD-203 (with max quality/dolby vision/hdr) works without any issues through the A32.
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post #9251 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
The HDMI 2.0 board in Trinnov got different chips on HDMI port 1-4 and 5-7 (got information from Trinnov). Recommendation back then when I struggled with Apple TV 4K was to set "problematic" HDMI 2.0 units on port 5-7. And for HDMI 1.4 units; put those on HDMI 1-4 and set ports to 1.4 only.

Of course, later it turned out to be irrelevant; since the problem was connected to 1 meter HDMI cable used for Apple TV 4K. I put the 1 meter cable on a different unit (worked fine always); and set a 2 meter cable on Apple TV 4K - problem gone. HDMI is complicated stuff; and I have often seen more problems with 1 meter cables compared to 2 meter (or longer) cables. There are technical reasons why 1 meter HDMI can give issues on certain devices I have heard.
The HDMI chips are the same on all inputs. Due to compatibility issues with older HDMI sources, Trinnov made the decision to set inputs 1-3 to HDMI 1.4 and 4-7 to HDMI 2.0 . The same for the pair of outputs. Output 1 is HDMI 1.4 and output 2 is HDMI 2.0. The recently released public firmware update allows the user to toggle between settings, which is essentially just changing the EDID the source sees on different inputs. Older cable/satellite boxes and PS3's come to mind as devices that I've had to use HDMI "Fixers" to manage EDID with other AVR's and pre-pros.

I believe the recommendation for 2m and 3m cables originally came from Jim Peterson at Lumagen. He has been expressing that view for a long time, and to my knowledge, also helped Trinnov figure out what some of the issues were that users were experiencing with the MDS HDMI board.
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post #9252 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The HDMI chips are the same on all inputs. Due to compatibility issues with older HDMI sources, Trinnov made the decision to set inputs 1-3 to HDMI 1.4 and 4-7 to HDMI 2.0 . The same for the pair of outputs. Output 1 is HDMI 1.4 and output 2 is HDMI 2.0. The recently released public firmware update allows the user to toggle between settings, which is essentially just changing the EDID the source sees on different inputs. Older cable/satellite boxes and PS3's come to mind as devices that I've had to use HDMI "Fixers" to manage EDID with other AVR's and pre-pros.

I believe the recommendation for 2m and 3m cables originally came from Jim Peterson at Lumagen. He has been expressing that view for a long time, and to my knowledge, also helped Trinnov figure out what some of the issues were that users were experiencing with the MDS HDMI board.
No, there are difference (the signal is going through an additional chip for port 1-4). ALL ports can be configured to HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2.0 (Applicable from 4.2.11 software)



Edit:
According to information from Trinnov via e-mail (31 January 2019). HDMI signal for port 1-4 goes through 2 chips; HDMI signal for port 5-7 goes through only one chip (received during investigation of Apple TV 4K HDMI problems together with Trinnov).

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HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - NORDOST Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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post #9253 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
No, there are difference (the signal is going through an additional chip for port 1-4). ALL ports can be configured to HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2.0 (Applicable from 4.2.11 software)
Yes, the design of the board is that way, but the actual HDMI input chips are the same, as I stated. MDS doesn't manufacture a special board for Trinnov. The design of that board does make inputs 4-7 a bit more stable. Correct that all the inputs can be changed, but I don't think I stated otherwise. I was saying that Trinnov decided when they released the new HDMI board to have inputs 1-3 defaulted to HDMI 1.4 and output 1 the same, and that with the latest release, they could be toggled to HDMI 2.0.

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post #9254 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Yes, the design of the board is that way, but the actual HDMI input chips are the same, as I stated. MDS doesn't manufacture a special board for Trinnov. The design of that board does make inputs 4-7 a bit more stable. Correct that all the inputs can be changed, but I don't think I stated otherwise. I was saying that Trinnov decided when they released the new HDMI board to have inputs 1-3 defaulted to HDMI 1.4 and output 1 the same, and that with the latest release, they could be toggled to HDMI 2.0.
See response on my previous post (I updated). Information came from MDS if I remember correctly (the mail thread regarding this is extremely long; don't have time to read through it all).

Edit:
Main point is; if you have issues with HDMI 2.0 devices; try HDMI port 5-7 (and use HDMI cables of 2 meters or longer; some state 1.5 meters). I build my statements on real knowledge; either built up by myself or from Trinnov (or a combination) And yes, it happens I'm wrong But not in this case.

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post #9255 of 9424 Old 11-15-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
See response on my previous post (I updated). Information came from MDS if I remember correctly (the mail thread regarding this is extremely long; don't have time to read through it all).
I think this is a misunderstanding of how the board is built. Each HDMI input is exactly the same. The difference is the board configuration. Inputs 1-4 feed into an SI HDMI processor. It outputs into another SI HDMI processor. Input 5-7 also are input to the second HDMI processor. This creates the advantage and stability most see when using inputs 5-7, as inputs 1-4 cascade thru a second processor.

http://www.mds.com/wp-content/upload...d_hsr72q_1.jpg

Easy to see the circuitry paths.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I think this is a misunderstanding of how the board is built. Each HDMI input is exactly the same. The difference is the board configuration. Inputs 1-4 feed into an SI HDMI processor. It outputs into another SI HDMI processor. Input 5-7 also are input to the second HDMI processor. This creates the advantage and stability most see when using inputs 5-7, as inputs 1-4 cascade thru a second processor.

http://www.mds.com/wp-content/upload...d_hsr72q_1.jpg

Easy to see the circuitry paths.
We are in fact talking about the same thing... and we agree; HDMI port 1-4 goes through 2 SI HDMI processors. HDMI port 5-7 goes through only one.

And yes, it is not a "video-processor", but HDMI processor. Let's agree and stop discussing semantics.

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We are in fact talking about the same thing... and we agree; HDMI port 1-4 goes through 2 SI HDMI processors. HDMI port 5-7 goes through only one.

And yes, it is not a "video-processor", but HMDI processor. Let's agree and stop discussing semantics.
My point of clarification was just about the actual inputs being exactly the same, and only because other products use a different architecture and can actually *have* different chipsets. For example, the Lumagen processor uses a design with 2 inputs per HDMI chip (the MDS board uses an SI chip with 4 inputs per) and they can be a 9GHz or 18GHz design. One of your earlier posts stated that "The HDMI 2.0 board in Trinnov got different chips on HDMI port 1-4 and 5-7" and that is what I wanted to correct. The chips are exactly the same. The circuit path is different.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
My point of clarification was just about the actual inputs being exactly the same, and only because other products use a different architecture and can actually *have* different chipsets. For example, the Lumagen processor uses a design with 2 inputs per HDMI chip (the MDS board uses an SI chip with 4 inputs per) and they can be a 9GHz or 18GHz design. One of your earlier posts stated that "The HDMI 2.0 board in Trinnov got different chips on HDMI port 1-4 and 5-7" and that is what I wanted to correct. The chips are exactly the same. The circuit path is different.
Exactly

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Regarding inputs on Altitude. Anyone using SPDIF (optical; coaxial, AES/EBU); or is it all HDMI ?

My setup contains 4 HDMI sources and 1 HDMI OLED display. Nothing else is connected to the A32. Music played via Roon; so no input required.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Regarding inputs on Altitude. Anyone using SPDIF (optical; coaxial, AES/EBU); or is it all HDMI ?

My setup contains 4 HDMI sources and 1 HDMI OLED display. Nothing else is connected to the A32. Music played via Roon; so no input required.
Most of my projects are just HDMI sources and Roon, like yours, but I've definitely used all of the above at times. I often use S/PDIF (coaxial or Toslink) with some of my signal generators during calibrations. The AES input is technically a different flavor, of course. I saw that pretty commonly from external DAC's and music streamers, but less so now that the Altitude is Roon Ready. Maybe 1 in 8 projects uses something other than HDMI ?
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post #9261 of 9424 Old 11-16-2019, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Regarding inputs on Altitude. Anyone using SPDIF (optical; coaxial, AES/EBU); or is it all HDMI ?

My setup contains 4 HDMI sources and 1 HDMI OLED display. Nothing else is connected to the A32. Music played via Roon; so no input required.

With my previous music server, I used SPDIF, but now the Roon input.
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post #9262 of 9424 Old 11-16-2019, 06:40 AM
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Confirmation of HDMI 2.0 board discussion - Jon Herron @ Trinnov told me early on that ports 1-4 go through 2 HDMI processor chips so if you want to connect 4K sources and operate at full 18gb bandwidth settings, it's preferable to use ports 5-7. They have the most direct circuit path & should be the most stable. My Oppo 205, AppleTV4K & new Nvidia Shield Pro are connected to 5-7, no problems. I have an audio only source connected to port 4.

Initially, I did see a very occasional pink screen IF I turned on the Oppo first but since upgrading to latest HDMI FW, it doesn't matter if I turn the player on 1st or last. I can also leave the display off until last & everything still syncs. I have a 15 meter HDMI run from Altitude to display & use RUIPRO hybrid FO. Stable & robust build quality. I highly recommend the RUIPRO FO cables (@Amazon). RUIPRO worked solidly when Celerity's pure FO occasionally was "touchy". I wholeheartedly agree with Adam that cable choice can make the difference.

Good discussion!
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post #9263 of 9424 Old 11-17-2019, 05:03 PM
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Confirmation of HDMI 2.0 board discussion - Jon Herron @ Trinnov told me early on that ports 1-4 go through 2 HDMI processor chips so if you want to connect 4K sources and operate at full 18gb bandwidth settings, it's preferable to use ports 5-7. They have the most direct circuit path & should be the most stable. My Oppo 205, AppleTV4K & new Nvidia Shield Pro are connected to 5-7, no problems. I have an audio only source connected to port 4.

Initially, I did see a very occasional pink screen IF I turned on the Oppo first but since upgrading to latest HDMI FW, it doesn't matter if I turn the player on 1st or last. I can also leave the display off until last & everything still syncs. I have a 15 meter HDMI run from Altitude to display & use RUIPRO hybrid FO. Stable & robust build quality. I highly recommend the RUIPRO FO cables (@Amazon). RUIPRO worked solidly when Celerity's pure FO occasionally was "touchy". I wholeheartedly agree with Adam that cable choice can make the difference.

Good discussion!
What about the outputs? Do you use Output 1 or 2 for 4K sources? What PJs do you use with specific output. Have you noticed any problems when use of 1-4 input with Output 2 or opposite?

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post #9264 of 9424 Old 11-17-2019, 05:13 PM
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Stable & robust build quality. I highly recommend the RUIPRO FO cables (@Amazon). RUIPRO worked solidly when Celerity's pure FO occasionally was "touchy". I wholeheartedly agree with Adam that cable choice can make the difference.

Good discussion!
I was recommended the Ruipro cables a couple of years ago by the UK Lumagen distributor and they've been brilliant for us too. Have certainly had issues with some other makes, physically and electrically.



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post #9265 of 9424 Old 11-17-2019, 09:19 PM
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What about the outputs? Do you use Output 1 or 2 for 4K sources? What PJs do you use with specific output. Have you noticed any problems when use of 1-4 input with Output 2 or opposite?

I use output 2 for my projector (JVC) for all sources.
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post #9266 of 9424 Old 11-17-2019, 10:26 PM
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I use output 2 for my projector (JVC) for all sources.
Thank you.

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post #9267 of 9424 Old 11-18-2019, 05:07 AM
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Thank you.
To add - Unlike the inputs, outputs aren't software swappable between HDMI 2.0 & 1.4. Output 1 is 1.4 & output 2 is 2.0. If you are sending the output to a 4K display with HDCP 2.2, you have to use output 2.
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post #9268 of 9424 Old 11-20-2019, 10:25 AM
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I think this is a misunderstanding of how the board is built. Each HDMI input is exactly the same. The difference is the board configuration. Inputs 1-4 feed into an SI HDMI processor. It outputs into another SI HDMI processor. Input 5-7 also are input to the second HDMI processor. This creates the advantage and stability most see when using inputs 5-7, as inputs 1-4 cascade thru a second processor.

http://www.mds.com/wp-content/upload...d_hsr72q_1.jpg

Easy to see the circuitry paths.



Halo,


Have anyone tested if different HDMI input provide different SQ? My Oppo's sound only is plugged to HDMI 3 because the circuit is the shortest.


Thanks
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post #9269 of 9424 Old 11-20-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Halo,


Have anyone tested if different HDMI input provide different SQ? My Oppo's sound only is plugged to HDMI 3 because the circuit is the shortest.


Thanks
I'm 100% sure the audio quality is the same. But why is HDMI3 in your opinion the shortest? HDMI input 3 actually goes through 2 SI HDMI chips. If anything should be shortest it must be HDMI5-7, not that there would be any difference in audio quality regardless.

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post #9270 of 9424 Old 11-20-2019, 06:48 PM
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That's an easy one - yes to them all ! :-)

FYI over the years I've had AV processors from Meridian, Classe, Lexicon, Cary and Bryston, and the Trinnov units have greater capability and flexibility than them all... and arguably better sound, but that is debatable point as it depends on many factors.

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Hi, you said "yes to all", but another altitude 16 owner said that the "double bass" option (which I would use to run my shaker at 0-100hz while fronts and subs ran 0-60/60-20k). Can you confirm the trinnov does have this double bass? If not, do yo know how you'd propose to configure this setup?

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