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post #10051 of 12156 Old 01-20-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
Just curious, has anyone used both surround height and top middle speakers? I see DTS:X Pro allows for one of the other. I have preview for surround heights and have top middle installed. I was just wondering if anyone has this, or what your thoughts are on this.
I would actually suggest using Ltf/Rtf (alternatively Lfh/Rfh) + Ltr/Rtr (alternatively Lhr/Rhr instead of Ltr/Rtr).

Mixing Ltm/Rtm with Ltr/Rtr or Lhr/Rhr is not optimal. You should spread them more out in the ceiling. More speakers are optimal, but spread is important (and an important way of getting the most out of your equipment if you don't have more than 4 ceiling speakers).

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post #10052 of 12156 Old 01-20-2020, 03:48 PM
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In case you are interested, Trinnov is running a webinar this Thursday at noon Eastern time that provides an overview of good design practices for Immersive Audio home theaters.

The focus of this webinar is on understanding not only how many speakers are required for a given seating area, but also where they should be placed and what is required to make them work as well as possible.

You can register here, and registrants will receive an email after the webinar with a link to the recording in case you are not able to attend at noon on Thursday (EST).

(You can thank me later ).
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post #10053 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Pasich View Post
Just curious, has anyone used both surround height and top middle speakers? I see DTS:X Pro allows for one of the other. I have preview for surround heights and have top middle installed. I was just wondering if anyone has this, or what your thoughts are on this.
I would actually suggest using Ltf/Rtf (alternatively Lfh/Rfh) + Ltr/Rtr (alternatively Lhr/Rhr instead of Ltr/Rtr).

Mixing Ltm/Rtm with Ltr/Rtr or Lhr/Rhr is not optimal. You should spread them more out in the ceiling. More speakers are optimal, but spread is important (and an important way of getting the most out of your equipment if you don't have more than 4 ceiling speakers).
If/when I jump in an finally get an Altitude32 I’ll have 9.6.12 system. 9.6 you can figure out, 12 will be front LCR heights, rear LR height, top front, top middle, top rear and VOG channel. I was just wondering if anyone had the additional surround heights for Auro3D. Though I feel it’s redundant with the top middle channels.
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post #10054 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 11:22 AM
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Question, can some please tell me what is doing the D/A conversion in the Altitude? Is it the Inter i7? If so, why are no other manufacturers following the same lead? Engineering and cost? Just curious.


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post #10055 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
In case you are interested, Trinnov is running a webinar this Thursday at noon Eastern time that provides an overview of good design practices for Immersive Audio home theaters.

The focus of this webinar is on understanding not only how many speakers are required for a given seating area, but also where they should be placed and what is required to make them work as well as possible.

You can register here, and registrants will receive an email after the webinar with a link to the recording in case you are not able to attend at noon on Thursday (EST).

(You can thank me later ).
I will thank you now.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
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post #10056 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
Question, can some please tell me what is doing the D/A conversion in the Altitude? Is it the Inter i7? If so, why are no other manufacturers following the same lead? Engineering and cost? Just curious.
The PC is used only for DSP. All the rest is handled via two* TAC (Trinnov Audio Controller) boards, a Universal board, and an HDMI board, all of which are run off a separate PS from the PC. The Universal board handles digital I/O to HDMI and all AES connections.

*In A32, one TAC in A16
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post #10057 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
Question, can some please tell me what is doing the D/A conversion in the Altitude? Is it the Inter i7? If so, why are no other manufacturers following the same lead? Engineering and cost? Just curious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The DA modules in Altitude is definitely not Intel i7 (which does not have any D/A converter). It is a separate module created by Trinnov, and it is a great D/A converter competing with the best out there. Based on the Trinnov Optimizer in addition it beats them all No need for external D/A converter with the Altitude, in my opinion it is a waste of money.

Edit:
If my memory serves me right, the D/A's are part of the output modules, which you have 1 to 4 of in the A32 (there is a reason these cost a **** load of money).

The PC and the rest of the A32/16 is completely galvanically isolated. That is why they use switch mode power supply for PC, and linear power supply for the rest.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
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Last edited by Berland; 01-21-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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post #10058 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 03:52 PM
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To add to above, D/A conversion is done using PCM4104 chips (same as used in Datasat RS20i). What makes Trinnov different from regular HTPC with a DAC board, is Trinnov uses its own OS and has discrete supplies for each function (HDMI, Analog board, clock and re-clocking et al) and with use of i7 (in Alt 32 and i5 in Alt16) and their 'OS' are able to deliver many of new feature deliverables (quicker) instead of depending or being at mercy of 3rd party DSP providers.
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post #10059 of 12156 Old 01-21-2020, 11:16 PM
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Hi All,


Can someone help me with external signal generator guide to calibrate active crossover in my DSP?



My calibrator uses SMART, he connects a XLR cable to Trinnov's Analog 1 L channel for mono white noise.


Trinnov is set at 0 db, he knows what db is in trinnov's level based on the signal he send via computer.



To send the noise, I usually reroute L to all the speakers in the dolby tab.


When the signal is running at L example at -40db, the L + the sub output should be the same value.


Problem arises when I want to output the white noise to more than 1 channel at the same time, say L and R. When L and R are used together for white noise, Trinnov creates channel panning, it reduces the L and R output to compensate for L input. It also boost the subwoofer level in the output. The calibrator will need to use LCR and sub at the same time with the white noise but Trinnov's matrix mess it up with my method.



Here are some photo example.
Photo 1: This is what I want, L = Sub = same db
Photo 2 and 3: When external generator is put into L, R, C at the same time, the output db is reduce. The sub is boosted. This messes up the measure curve as they are not the same level.



Can someone tell me how they usually do it with external generator? I need all output and sub to be the same db as L input from PC's signal



Thank you
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post #10060 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishore View Post
To add to above, D/A conversion is done using PCM4104 chips (same as used in Datasat RS20i). What makes Trinnov different from regular HTPC with a DAC board, is Trinnov uses its own OS and has discrete supplies for each function (HDMI, Analog board, clock and re-clocking et al) and with use of i7 (in Alt 32 and i5 in Alt16) and their 'OS' are able to deliver many of new feature deliverables (quicker) instead of depending or being at mercy of 3rd party DSP providers.
Also verified by Trinnov that the chip used (many of them) is:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm4104.pdf

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post #10061 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Hi All,


Can someone help me with external signal generator guide to calibrate active crossover in my DSP?



My calibrator uses SMART, he connects a XLR cable to Trinnov's Analog 1 L channel for mono white noise.


Trinnov is set at 0 db, he knows what db is in trinnov's level based on the signal he send via computer.



To send the noise, I usually reroute L to all the speakers in the dolby tab.


When the signal is running at L example at -40db, the L + the sub output should be the same value.


Problem arises when I want to output the white noise to more than 1 channel at the same time, say L and R. When L and R are used together for white noise, Trinnov creates channel panning, it reduces the L and R output to compensate for L input. It also boost the subwoofer level in the output. The calibrator will need to use LCR and sub at the same time with the white noise but Trinnov's matrix mess it up with my method.



Here are some photo example.
Photo 1: This is what I want, L = Sub = same db
Photo 2 and 3: When external generator is put into L, R, C at the same time, the output db is reduce. The sub is boosted. This messes up the measure curve as they are not the same level.



Can someone tell me how they usually do it with external generator? I need all output and sub to be the same db as L input from PC's signal



Thank you
Can't you use REW for this ?

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
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post #10062 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Can't you use REW for this ?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Hi All,


Can someone help me with external signal generator guide to calibrate active crossover in my DSP?



My calibrator uses SMART, he connects a XLR cable to Trinnov's Analog 1 L channel for mono white noise.


Trinnov is set at 0 db, he knows what db is in trinnov's level based on the signal he send via computer.



To send the noise, I usually reroute L to all the speakers in the dolby tab.


When the signal is running at L example at -40db, the L + the sub output should be the same value.


Problem arises when I want to output the white noise to more than 1 channel at the same time, say L and R. When L and R are used together for white noise, Trinnov creates channel panning, it reduces the L and R output to compensate for L input. It also boost the subwoofer level in the output. The calibrator will need to use LCR and sub at the same time with the white noise but Trinnov's matrix mess it up with my method.



Here are some photo example.
Photo 1: This is what I want, L = Sub = same db
Photo 2 and 3: When external generator is put into L, R, C at the same time, the output db is reduce. The sub is boosted. This messes up the measure curve as they are not the same level.



Can someone tell me how they usually do it with external generator? I need all output and sub to be the same db as L input from PC's signal



Thank you
SMAART's signal generator is quite limited (mono only, plays only the left channel of a stereo wave). Your calibrator can use RoomEQ Wizard to generate tones/noise. The tone generator is full featured and leaps ahead of SMAART. With ASIO4ALL it can send tones to individual 7.1 channels individually or in pairs. Without ASIO4ALL it can still send to L & R as a pair.

I'm not picking on SMAART. They know this aspect is lacking. SMAART does many many things that cannot be done via REW.
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post #10063 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 03:41 AM
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Hi,


Thanks for the info. I think he knows REW, I will ask.



The forum still does not answer how can I output LCR+SUB at the same time and all of them have the same db as the input.



Can someone help?



Best

Last edited by santodx5; 01-22-2020 at 04:18 AM.
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post #10064 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Hi,


Thanks for the info. I think he knows REW, I will ask.



The forum still does not answer how can I output LCR+SUB at the same time and all of them have the same db as the input.



Can someone help?



Best
This may be a dumb idea, but can’t you configure so the Altitude thinks it’s outputting for a Bi-amped speaker, but send one output to the speaker and the second output to the sub? Just guessing... SJ
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post #10065 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 06:30 AM
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This may be a dumb idea, but can’t you configure so the Altitude thinks it’s outputting for a Bi-amped speaker, but send one output to the speaker and the second output to the sub? Just guessing... SJ
You can send the same channel to multiple outputs (speaker layout).

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post #10066 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Hi,


Thanks for the info. I think he knows REW, I will ask.



The forum still does not answer how can I output LCR+SUB at the same time and all of them have the same db as the input.



Can someone help?



Best
I also use Smaart, along with REW and a couple others, depending on what I need to measure. Why not use the internal noise generator in the Trinnov? I get that there are reasons he would want to use the generator from Smaart, but the Trinnov won't do what he wants. Also, it is really easy in Smaart to offset measurements if the level is all he is worried about.

The Altitude also lets you generate pink noise pre and post optimizer, which is very handy.

I don't want to pick on your calibrator. If he is using Smaart and understands it, he clearly has some knowledge, but it sounds like your calibrator may not be too familiar with the Trinnov Altitude and the tools it has available.

EDIT : Actually, he may be able to use Set Gain on the channel config page to do what he wants. I still prefer using the signal generators in the Trinnov for what he wants. You can turn on/off Bass Management, mute outputs or inputs.
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Last edited by appelz; 01-22-2020 at 07:06 AM.
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post #10067 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
You can send the same channel to multiple outputs (speaker layout).
You certainly can, but the outputs will behave exactly as the OP describes.

To explain, lets look at a single Left Side speaker. When level matching speakers, you put a single mic at the listening position, play pink noise, often bandwidth limited or use A-weighting on your meter, and match the output of that speaker to other speakers in your system so they have the same SPL at the mic. If you have two speakers playing in an array (two Left Side speakers in this case) the measured SPL at the mic will be higher. If equidistant, same amps, etc then instead of measuring say 85dB, the mic will measure 88dB. The Altitude expects that, and reduces the output of each channel, so the combined speakers will output 85dB at the mic.

The Set Gain section lets you adjust those on your own if needed.
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post #10068 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
You certainly can, but the outputs will behave exactly as the OP describes.

To explain, lets look at a single Left Side speaker. When level matching speakers, you put a single mic at the listening position, play pink noise, often bandwidth limited or use A-weighting on your meter, and match the output of that speaker to other speakers in your system so they have the same SPL at the mic. If you have two speakers playing in an array (two Left Side speakers in this case) the measured SPL at the mic will be higher. If equidistant, same amps, etc then instead of measuring say 85dB, the mic will measure 88dB. The Altitude expects that, and reduces the output of each channel, so the combined speakers will output 85dB at the mic.

The Set Gain section lets you adjust those on your own if needed.

My trinnov was the 1st time he ever calibrated. He works in pro industry for movie theater, church, pro installation.


He told me "if I use internal pink noise from trinnov, he wont be able to measure transfer function because there is no reference signal internal that can be upsampled with its time delay. So it can only be RTA, he cant see the room contribution to the sound that is measured by the mic"


Any other solution please? As long I can use external signal generator to generate pink noise to LCR and sub at the same db level as input, problem will be solved.



Thanks

Last edited by santodx5; 01-22-2020 at 07:51 AM.
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post #10069 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
My trinnov was the 1st time he ever calibrated. He works in pro industry for movie theater, church, pro installation.


He told me "if I use internal pink noise from trinnov, he wont be able to measure transfer function because there is no reference signal internal that can be upsample time delay. So it can only be RTA, he cant see the room contribution to the sound that measure by the mic"


Any other solution please? As long I can use external signal generator to generate pink noise to LCR and sub at the same db level as input, problem will be solved.



Thanks
Yup, that was exactly the scenario I was thinking of where he would want to use the signal generator in Smaart.

Use the Set Gain tool I mentioned in another post. That *should* work.

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post #10070 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Yup, that was exactly the scenario I was thinking of where he would want to use the signal generator in Smaart.

Use the Set Gain tool I mentioned in another post. That *should* work.



Thank you Adam. We will calibrate tomorrow. It sounds pretty amazing now, I hope tomorrow fine tuning will make it perfect.
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post #10071 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
1. Multiple options, but the easiest one is (if I remember correct you have standard support for up to 5 individual subs, but you can extend with more if needed, the penalty is more complicated config). Usually you want to group subs if you have many stacked....
First let me thank you for the excellent information and time spent answering my questions - it's appreciated!

Regarding #3 I just want to make sure I have this clear.

* Is Trinnov bound by the Atmos consumer channel limitation of 9.1.6?
See this answer for a more detailed explanation.
Consumer Atmos supports up to 24.1.10
* Even if it's not I assume that it's still bound by the mix, an older title laid out for 7.1.4?
* Is there a good site for avoiding those older titles, knowing which movies take full advantage of Atmos, and which ones have DTS:X?

My main goal in obtaining a Trinnov Altitude 32 is take advantage of X number of speakers I decide to install and use when watching UHD blu-rays (all I will use it for). Hate to go down that path and then find out I can't use those extra speakers 99% of the time.

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post #10072 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sthompson View Post
First let me thank you for the excellent information and time spent answering my questions - it's appreciated!

Regarding #3 I just want to make sure I have this clear.

* Is Trinnov bound by the Atmos consumer channel limitation of 9.1.6?
It will utilize what is on the sound track. Up to 48 if I remember correctly. But as you noted, not many mixes use but a basic 7.x.4. BUT, it most certainly is getting much better



Quote:
* Even if it's not I assume that it's still bound by the mix, an older title laid out for 7.1.4?
Correct


* Is there a good site for avoiding those older titles, knowing which movies take full advantage of Atmos, and which ones have DTS:X? The good news is that probably this week or next, Trinnov will release DTS:X Pro which will be able to make use of all of your speakers.


Quote:
My main goal in obtaining a Trinnov Altitude 32 is take advantage of "X" number of speakers I decide to install and use when watching UHD blu-rays (all I will use it for). Hate to go down that path and then find out I can't use those extra speakers 99% of the time.
Depends on how big your "X" is, but at the moment, DTS:X Pro notwithstanding, the vast majority of current Atmos releases are still 7.x.4. I don't know if it is 99%, but it is (my guess) over 90%.
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post #10073 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
It will utilize what is on the sound track. Up to 48 if I remember correctly. But as you noted, not many mixes use but a basic 7.x.4. BUT, it most certainly is getting much better



Correct


* Is there a good site for avoiding those older titles, knowing which movies take full advantage of Atmos, and which ones have DTS:X? The good news is that probably this week or next, Trinnov will release DTS:X Pro which will be able to make use of all of your speakers.



Depends on how big your "X" is, but at the moment, DTS:X Pro notwithstanding, the vast majority of current Atmos releases are still 7.x.4. I don't know if it is 99%, but it is (my guess) over 90%.
Most new Atmos titles are good (2019 and newer); if you want to make sure - go for anything produced by Netflix; they seem to always utilize Atmos with objects in a very good way. Keep in mind that objects are used to enhance the experience; this does not mean you will have full action in all channels always.

Regarding available Atmos channels - available channels currently are 42.

DTS:X Pro will even titles with no objects enable upmix via Neural:X of DTS:X; which will give you up to 31+sub.
I'm still very optimistic regarding new software release this week.

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post #10074 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 03:51 PM
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@sdrucker can probably answer regarding 7.1.4 printouts vs soundtracks utilizing objects. The number is nowhere near 90% printouts. I'll be surprised if it is even 50%.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the numbers for home Atmos but I'm 99.9% sure it is 34 speakers max. 24.1.10
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post #10075 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post

DTS:X Pro will even titles with no objects enable upmix via Neural:X of DTS:X; which will give you up to 31+sub.

I'm still very optimistic regarding new software release this week.
Nitpicking, Dts:X supports 30 locations and 2 subs. I suspect a Neural X upmix of a 7.1.4 track will only result in 27 of 30 speaker locations being active. 7.1.4 could be upmixed to 14.1.13.

The 3 bottom/badger speakers will require objects to be utilized (or 3D remapping).
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post #10076 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The 3 bottom/badger speakers will require objects to be utilized (or 3D remapping).
Neural:X upmix is supported on the 3 ground speakers. Here you need to trust me; I have tested it

Supported DTS:X channels = 31 including the 3 ground speakers (+LFE of course).

Edit:
Atmos got 40 available channels + LFE in Altitude (just open speaker layout screen and count them yourself).

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post #10077 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@sdrucker can probably answer regarding 7.1.4 printouts vs soundtracks utilizing objects. The number is nowhere near 90% printouts. I'll be surprised if it is even 50%.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the numbers for home Atmos but I'm 99.9% sure it is 34 speakers max. 24.1.10
24.1.10 is absolutely correct.

I haven't quantified all the breakdowns of Atmos soundtracks, but 50% to 60% being 7.1.4 or 7.1.2 (for that matter) might be about right based on the Trinnov input testing I did on my 13.4.6 system. I do think that the use of 7.1.4 as an absolute standard is slowly decreasing, at least for the more current content I've bought or watched on a Disney+ or Netflix. Even Disney+ seems to have had limited use of wides or non-overhead Atmos speakers while they've seem stuck on one pair of top middle overheads on the Star Wars Ep I to XI, for what it's worth.

And even then, over time we are seeing a mix of uses - everything from insane "it uses everything creatively" like The House with a Clock in Its Walls or Gravity, to movies that make heavy use of more obscure Atmos speakers (Hunter Killer seemed to have a fetish for left/right centers inside LCR). And then there's the "we sometimes use wides and other presence speakers for effect, but sparingly" in something like 6 Underground or Lucy. There are other movies that appear to be prints of 9.1.6 with wides (Red Sparrow comes to mind), and yet others that are .2 on top middles but don't use the front/rear tops or heights much except for expanding overhead content for dramatic effect but use my wides and front side surround (ss1) frequently, such as Netflix Dracula. It's a real mix.

My feeling is that if you enjoy that extra resolution and can hear it, along with having the available channels on your Altitude that you don't need for active crossovers or subs, I'd follow the Trinnov recommendations on the website from Wide Screen Review as a guide to what you can add. But it's not a substitute for being capturing dynamic range or seat to seat consistency as a priority.
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post #10078 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Neural:X upmix is supported on the 3 ground speakers. Here you need to trust me; I have tested it

Supported DTS:X channels = 31 including the 3 ground speakers (+LFE of course).

Edit:
Atmos got 40 available channels + LFE in Altitude (just open speaker layout screen and count them yourself).
40? Where do you get that given that consumer/home Atmos is 24.1.10?

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post #10079 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
40? Where do you get that given that consumer/home Atmos is 24.1.10?
I'm just counting available channels in Atmos. In my Altitude32 I have 40 available in my Atmos dropdown + LFE of course. More options came after introduction of the 48ext.

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post #10080 of 12156 Old 01-22-2020, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthompson View Post
First let me thank you for the excellent information and time spent answering my questions - it's appreciated!

Regarding #3 I just want to make sure I have this clear.

* Is Trinnov bound by the Atmos consumer channel limitation of 9.1.6?
To answer this more specifically, Trinnov isn't bound by the DSP manufacturers' limitation to 9.1.6 being wides as part of the .9, nor to six height level speakers in a 9.1.6 configuration. Basically any legal set of Atmos location speakers can go together within the channel limit you have on the Altitude.

You can do things like 11.1.4 (wides and front side surrounds, front side surrounds and L/R center, front side surrounds and rear surround 1, etc.) within the limits of the number of channels supporter in your license and some basic rules about having both side and rear surrounds. You could even get crazy and do a 7.1.8 (front heights, top fronts, top middles, rear heights) system for all I know. And that leaves out specific channels you'd set aside for DTS:X Pro (Center height) or Auro (Surround heights). I think Adam once pointed out that he did an Altitude for a specialized room where he had 2.x.8 or something similar.

Similar arguments hold up if you have, say, a 24 channel Altitude and > 15 channels available for an Atmos configuration, by the way.
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